The loopholes (thermoregulation) that anti-maskers are trying to grasp

[Kitty Tantrum]

6 minutes ago, gaius said:

@Kitty Tantrum, you've been arguing against the effectiveness of masks for a while on here. And I get the impression you really just don't want to be forced to wear one.

I'm very skeptical of their effectiveness in uncontrolled environments among the general population. Yes. That is very true.

But how many times are you (and others) going to deliberately ignore the fact that I've stated numerous time that I WEAR ONE ANYWAY, even though I'm a shoe-in for a legitimate exemption. I just go about my business in such a way that effectively limits the amount of time I spend wearing one - and if I really need to, I don't feel bad at all about pulling it down or lifting the bottom to get some cool air.

The mandate also doesn't say that your condition has to be "DANGEROUS." There are literally no qualifiers specified. In fact, the mandate includes a broad non-medical exemption for any situation wherein wearing a mask is "onerous." Talk about subjective! Talk about loophole!

10 minutes ago, gaius said:

But at this point the only way we can reopen with a reasonable level of safety is to have every single person in common indoor areas wearing a mask.

But that's not what the law says. Sorry, but you gotta get used to it.

You don't get to just bully people into complying with laws that don't actually exist in the way that you personally would desire for them to be worded.

And that's what I see people doing where I live.

[gaius]

33 minutes ago, Kitty Tantrum said:

(Spoiler alert: NONE OF THEM ARE "APPROVED" FOR VIRAL PROTECTION IN EITHER DIRECTION, IN OR OUT) 

Ever since the pandemic started there's been contact tracing and studying of actual real world cases of infected people coming into contact with other people, masked and otherwise. Like in the great clips hair salon in Mississippi. And the bus study in China. And it's been found that when an infected person is masked others around them usually end up not infected. And that even in cases where the infected person isn't masked, masks can provide fairly decent protection against infection. Even non n95's.

Micron levels, thermoregulation, whether a mask is approved for whatever or not, it doesn't really matter at this point. We have enough real world experience with this particular virus to know that both surgical masks and N95s can be very effective in the fight. So at this point we've kind of moved past the idea that masks might just be hype. They're not.

[Kitty Tantrum]

And that's fine - like I said, I'm skeptical (and those anecdotes don't do much to sway me, for lots of reasons). But it's not like I'm not trying to overthrow the mandate, and I'm not encouraging other people to go maskless without a good reason (I've actually made and distributed a couple hundred so far), but I'm certainly entitled to my skepticism regardless. And all of that is quite beside the point.

As something of an aside: I had hoped that by opting to wear a mask anyway and NOT claiming/defending that exemption for myself, thereby contributing to a higher rate of overall compliance, I would be helping to make it easier on those who arguably NEED the exemption a lot more than I do. Instead I have observed exactly the opposite: the broader and more complete the compliance in my area, the more aggressive people are about harassing the scarce few who claim the exemption. It's disgusting.

[gaius]

39 minutes ago, Kitty Tantrum said:

I'm very skeptical of their effectiveness in uncontrolled environments among the general population. Yes. That is very true.

But how many times are you (and others) going to deliberately ignore the fact that I've stated numerous time that I WEAR ONE ANYWAY, even though I'm a shoe-in for a legitimate exemption. I just go about my business in such a way that effectively limits the amount of time I spend wearing one - and if I really need to, I don't feel bad at all about pulling it down or lifting the bottom to get some cool air.

The mandate also doesn't say that your condition has to be "DANGEROUS." There are literally no qualifiers specified. In fact, the mandate includes a broad non-medical exemption for any situation wherein wearing a mask is "onerous." Talk about subjective! Talk about loophole!

But that's not what the law says. Sorry, but you gotta get used to it.

You don't get to just bully people into complying with laws that don't actually exist in the way that you personally would desire for them to be worded.

And that's what I see people doing where I live.

Well, there are no laws against shooting people dirty looks. Or directing general disdain in others direction. So you do get to bully people in certain ways if they decide they're just too special to put a mask on.

Companies have to make reasonable accomodations for disabilities but that doesn't include giving them the full range of privileges afforded to the masked, like shopping in person. 

And I know you wear one Kitty, but again, the root of your complaint seems to be that you have to. That you're part of this class of people that should be given special treatment but in this case aren't. And you still haven't given any actual examples of people who masks are dangerous for being given the Frankenstein treatment.

And if you believe the exemption should cover even those who mask wearing isn't dangerous for, how many people do you think should die from the virus before it becomes reasonable to expect those with gluten allergies to just suck it up and put one on? We're up to 150,000+ now. So what's your threshold? 500,000? One million? Ten million? A billion?

Edited August 5, 2020 by gaius

[Kitty Tantrum]

4 minutes ago, gaius said:

And if you believe the exemption should cover even those who mask wearing isn't dangerous for, how many people do you think should die from the virus before it becomes reasonable to expect those with gluten allergies to just suck it up and put one on? We're up to 150,000+ now. So what's your threshold? 500,000? One million? Ten million? A billion?

This isn't really about my beliefs, it is about what the law says, both in letter and in spirit. In terms of the law, "dangerous" is a highly subjective term and means virtually nothing in light of how easy it is to get a doctor's note or prescription for nearly anything.

But if you want my OPINION, I would say that (ESPECIALLY if it is evident that the exemptions are not being abused - which, in my area that seems pretty clear) there should not exist any "death threshold" above which the exemptions should be thrown out entirely.

I WOULD certainly cede that (especially in areas where risk is high) there ought to be an "exemption threshold" above which it warrants devoting the time and resources to establishing some kind of system that could weed out at least most of the frivolous claims (one idea I had was that all you would really need to do is offer the exemption to ANYBODY regardless of medical status... but on the condition that they sign up for a contact-tracing program, and that would weed out 99.9% of the covert "muh freedom" crowd)  - but never would I argue that the exemptions ought to be removed from the mandate or disregarded entirely.

The whole reason for the exemptions is to strike a balance between risks. If a very small percentage of the population goes mask-less, and if most of those are extra careful about their other safety measures because they ARE worried about the virus and just CAN'T wear the mask - that does not present a greater statistical risk to the overall population than the risk associated with forcing masks on those who really shouldn't wear them. Science and math agree that a small percentage of exemptions is better than no exemptions, in terms of best facilitating general public health.

So like I said, if I saw a lot of people claiming the exemption, I'd be pretty skeptical too. I'm pointing out the disparity between local CONDITIONS and local RESPONSE that I have observed up-close in real-time. A lot of people are freaking out about these "anti-maskers" they've seen on the news "killing grandma" when the reality here is that nearly everyone was already wearing a mask by the time the governor issued the actual mandate. MAYBE there's a person here or there quietly claiming the exemption when they "shouldn't" in any situation where they can get away with it. But in an area that has 99%+ compliance, if you see the odd person here or there not wearing a mask, I think you should mind your own business, because the odds are much higher that you're firmly in the wrong by trying to correct them (not to mention, enforcement is not the job of private citizens).

I'm pointing out that FLOUTING THE LAW simply because you FEEL THREATENED BY SOMETHING is a big problem on both sides of the issue. Whether that's the ENTIRETY of the law ("muh freedom" - threatened by being made to wear one), or a portion of the law ("no exemptions" - threatened by the sight of an unmasked person).

It's the same principle. And I know I will probably never change your mind, but I'm going to say it anyway: if you have a problem with people using fake "exemption cards" (I LOL at those because there's no such thing as a *real* exemption card) to get around wearing a mask, you really ought to have a problem with people trying to force compliance on the exempt - but I see THAT particular form of lawlessness championed by many, and I think that's shameful.

You make a good point about some bullying being perfectly legal! That's fair. But if you spend some time watching, it becomes plainly evident that there is a portion of the population (probably mostly of the sort you don't find posting long-winded messages on internet forums) that takes this too far. On both sides. And it is frightening to me how increasingly polarized the two "sides" are becoming.

It's all "GRRR, YOU CAN'T MAKE ME, YOU CAN'T MAKE ANYBODY" vs. "GRRR, I CAN MAKE EVERYONE, WITHOUT EXEMPTION."

I was talking about this with my (very pro-mask) neighbor just the other day, and she agrees, she sees it too. All this "anti-masker blah bah blah" and "pro-muzzling blah blah blah" rhetoric is doing nothing to help anybody in any way whatsoever, and it is primarily the product of excess tension and anxiety in the entire freaking population. People are using this as a reason to get nasty with people because they don't have a good handle on their emotions. The things you'll hear from grocery store employees who are afraid of trying to enforce the mandate, and the things you'll hear from the people who are afraid of going to the store without a mask even though it's not good for them to wear one and the store will allow them, are the same things: they are all afraid that someone on the "other side" will physically attack them.

Utter insanity. All around.

[Kitty Tantrum]

53 minutes ago, gaius said:

And I know you wear one Kitty, but again, the root of your complaint seems to be that you have to. That you're part of this class of people that should be given special treatment but in this case aren't.

No - and I don't really know where you're getting that. I AM in a class of people who HAVE ALREADY BEEN given special treatment under the law, essentially. And you bet your sweet bippy that the instant the governor updates the mask law to say that everyone has to wear a mask even when they're outdoors and nowhere near other people (I suspect this is only a matter of time, no matter how long our downward trend continues), I'm going to be like "NOPE!" and calling my doctor, and my doctor will 100% back me up. I choose to wear a mask in the spirit of getting along, and because as long as I only have to wear one for like 10 minutes in the air-conditioned grocery store, or while I sit on my butt in the air-conditioned doctor's office - the attention I'd get for not wearing one would be more uncomfortable than wearing one. I could claim the exemption TODAY if I wanted to, and since I have a good reputation in my community, I could probably even call around to the stores I usually visit and get an exemption from store policy as well (though they'd probably stipulate that I come in during certain off-peak hours)  - because it IS allowable under the law, and they know me and know I'm not full of it (full of MYSELF, perhaps; but not dishonest).

I don't "have to," so that can't possibly be the root of my complaint. The root of my complaint is that I see people in my community essentially being persecuted for non-conformity by dumb, aggressive, emotionally volatile people who think that "anti-maskers claiming bogus exemptions" is a big huge thing everywhere. My complaint is that many people have adopted a personal approach of "It is my job as a private citizen to amend, interpret, and enforce this law - and I've decided that nobody is exempt because more is always better and everyone who says they're exempt is a liar."

I thought I'd already explained that all in a bit more detail than was even necessary, so I can't help but get the impression that you're just struggling to paint me according to some preconceived notion that you have of me based on our differences of opinion or perspective. Shrug.

[QuietRiot]

Seriously, you're not be asked to have your ***k cut off or to drown a puppy for public health concerns. You're just wearing a thin piece of cloth over your face and nose. 

[Kitty Tantrum]

41 minutes ago, QuietRiot said:

You're just wearing a thin piece of cloth over your face and nose. 

Unless you're exempt.

I've been trying to figure out what exactly is driving this... "ANTI-EXEMPTION" sentiment, because it makes no sense to me that I'm actually seeing this, in an area where almost everybody is wearing a mask. Posts on this thread so far have been quite illuminating.

It's mind-boggling to me that anyone can seriously make the leap from "some people fake having a condition" to "there should be no exemptions anywhere for anyone anyway, nobody *really* needs them."

But that's the attitude I see in this thread: some people have been lying, and it was in the news, so the honest people have to accept getting screwed over because their exemptions have been canceled in the court of public opinion.

lol?

[QuietRiot]

1 hour ago, Kitty Tantrum said:

Unless you're exempt.

I've been trying to figure out what exactly is driving this... "ANTI-EXEMPTION" sentiment, because it makes no sense to me that I'm actually seeing this, in an area where almost everybody is wearing a mask. Posts on this thread so far have been quite illuminating.

It's mind-boggling to me that anyone can seriously make the leap from "some people fake having a condition" to "there should be no exemptions anywhere for anyone anyway, nobody *really* needs them."

But that's the attitude I see in this thread: some people have been lying, and it was in the news, so the honest people have to accept getting screwed over because their exemptions have been canceled in the court of public opinion.

lol?

Personally, I think you're being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.

[QuietRiot]

3 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

The reason people are fighting the exemption thing is because wearing a mask is really just a slight inconvenience. I struggle to come up with one possible reason someone could be medically exempt from being mildly inconvenienced. Everything else, like difficulty breathing in them or the CO2 stuff has basically been debunked. Not to mention a lot of us that have worked with the public see how often these exemptions get abused and we don't really want people playing those games with a pandemic that has caused this much damage to our country already. 

It has been medically proven that wearing some kind of face covering does no real harm to anyone....no matter what the situation.  They are reaching for a reason, but the fact is is typically it chaffs their ears or whatever it does that bothers them for the hour of shopping that they do. Then , after their done shopping, they take it off. 

They think they are suffering by wearing them, when they don't know what REAL suffering is.

Edited August 6, 2020 by QuietRiot

[thefooloftheyear]

I'm complying with the edicts as they have been dealt....I don't particularly like wearing a mask, so I only do it on the rare occasion that I have to enter the store...I dunno...I guess I see a lot of people that kind of treat it like the ones with the handicap placard on their car....A lot of people have those a and really aren't "handicapped"...Many are just too lazy...I know a few people personally that do this and its annoying as  shyt...

I'll be honest....If I had to wear a mask all day in a job like some are being required to do, I wouldn't fight the rule, but I may have to leave that job...I don't think I could tolerate all that time with a mask on...Maybe id get used to it, but it's pretty doubtful...

TFY

[Redhead14]

33 minutes ago, QuietRiot said:

It has been medically proven that wearing some kind of face covering does no real harm to anyone....no matter what the situation.  They are reaching for a reason, but the fact is is typically it chaffs their ears or whatever it does that bothers them for the hour of shopping that they do. Then , after their done shopping, they take it off. 

They think they are suffering by wearing them, when they don't know what REAL suffering is.

 

 

Edited August 6, 2020 by Redhead14

[Kitty Tantrum]

2 hours ago, enigma32 said:

The reason people are fighting the exemption thing is because wearing a mask is really just a slight inconvenience.

If you really believe that, and if you really believe the experts who wrote the mandates were WRONG to include any exemptions... Maybe a good place to start then would be to try to convince the people who write the mandates to change them... instead of being a dick to other people because you don't agree with the law.

[QuietRiot]

7 hours ago, thefooloftheyear said:

I'm complying with the edicts as they have been dealt....I don't particularly like wearing a mask, so I only do it on the rare occasion that I have to enter the store...I dunno...I guess I see a lot of people that kind of treat it like the ones with the handicap placard on their car....A lot of people have those a and really aren't "handicapped"...Many are just too lazy...I know a few people personally that do this and its annoying as  shyt...

I'll be honest....If I had to wear a mask all day in a job like some are being required to do, I wouldn't fight the rule, but I may have to leave that job...I don't think I could tolerate all that time with a mask on...Maybe id get used to it, but it's pretty doubtful...

TFY

I wear my mask all day at my job, I don't care to, but there are just SOME things in life we don't like to do and we have to grin and bite the bullet...of course, this results in putting food on the table and the lights on...so if you're willing to quit a job that will keep you from being fed...well, the consequences of that would result in that, also...not qualify for unemployment compensation.

[thefooloftheyear]

5 minutes ago, QuietRiot said:

I wear my mask all day at my job, I don't care to, but there are just SOME things in life we don't like to do and we have to grin and bite the bullet...of course, this results in putting food on the table and the lights on...so if you're willing to quit a job that will keep you from being fed...well, the consequences of that would result in that, also...not qualify for unemployment compensation.

It's one of the many reasons I work for myself....and I am well fed...lol...

That being said, it wouldn't mean i'd sit at home and play with myself...I'd just find something else to do to earn where I didn't have to wear a mask all day long.....About the only way I would work all day with a mask on is if I was doing heart surgery and making millions..

TFY

[QuietRiot]

31 minutes ago, thefooloftheyear said:

It's one of the many reasons I work for myself....and I am well fed...lol...

That being said, it wouldn't mean i'd sit at home and play with myself...I'd just find something else to do to earn where I didn't have to wear a mask all day long.....About the only way I would work all day with a mask on is if I was doing heart surgery and making millions..

TFY

That's great that you work for yourself. Do you have health benefits? I used to work at home, it was mostly taking calls at home, be it sales or tech support. Got sick of it and you were an independent contractor....no benefits of course.

Edited August 6, 2020 by QuietRiot

[thefooloftheyear]

Just now, QuietRiot said:

That's great that you work for yourself. Do you have health benefits?

Of course...Top shelf plan...

Understand, I am doing the same things everyone else is doing, and have been following all of the recommendations as they have been instituted...I don't wear a mask when I am driving or walking/exercising alone on the street, but anytime I am in a place that requires a mask I wear it and don't have any problem with it..

While I never got tested, its probably a good bet that I had covid back in late Jan and most of Feb...It wasn't fun, but I survived...

I am just fortunate that I don't need to be out and about as much as most people have to, so the ruling doesn't affect me as much as many others...I went to the pet store to get some feed for my animals, and the woman there had a mask on and all I could think of is how miserable that would be to have to have to do that for a full shift...I leave the place with my purchase and once in my car, the mask gets to come off..

TFY

[regine_phalange]

I personally haven't seen anyone being harassed for wearing the wrong masks where I am. But I think that asking people to stand away from people who don't wear masks is like telling people who don't smoke that it's their responsibility to stay away from people who smoke when they smoke indoors. 

I genuinely think that there should be fair fines, costing at least as much as it would cost to stay 3 weeks in an intensive care unit multiplied by the percentage of people who end up there. Plus funeral costs multiplied by the percentage of people who die. 

[Piddy]

I'm seeing too many people not wearing the mask correcting.  Meaning covering your mouth and nose.  Some even have it under their chin. 

Like Bill Mahr says, "wearing a mask under your chin is like wearing a condom on your balls." 

[QuietRiot]

On 8/5/2020 at 2:32 PM, Kitty Tantrum said:

Right - and under this presumption, we have this crazy phenomenon by which private citizens seem to feel that it is within their rights to HARASS or even ASSAULT other people for not wearing a mask. When they have literally ZERO POSSIBLE WAY of knowing whether that person has a qualifying medical condition or not.

"Most people don't actually need one" becomes "OOOOH I JUST KNOW that this person who isn't wearing a mask should be, they can't POSSIBLY have a valid medical exemption, TIME FOR VIGILANTE JUSTIIIIICE!"

And then, even if the person HAS A QUALIFYING CONDITION and states that, they are called a liar, accused of making something up because they want to kill someone's grandma.

People are using this argument of "most people are just pretending to have a qualifying condition" to justify taking their pent-up aggression out on anyone they have deemed "morally inferior" or "the enemy" for not wearing a mask. That's all it is.

If you're worried about safety, all you have to do is stay 6+ feet away from anyone without a mask on. The fact that the "Pro-Mask Zealots" will walk up and get all up in other people's faces about this tells me it is ANYTHING BUT a concern for actual safety that drives this behavior of making a public enemy of anyone not masked-up.

Part of it is definitely that it is a new issue. But another part of it is that it's just not the same thing, and it's nowhere near the same SCOPE. The subset of people who have physical handicaps which impact their mobility is NOT the same subset of people who have issues that contraindicate regular/prolonged mask use - though there is some overlap. And the conditions which qualify are not necessarily conditions that are simple to QUANTIFY. Things like severe claustrophobia, anxiety, PTSD, etc. absolutely qualify - and these are all things that the average person might not have EVER had formally diagnosed, because of the time/expense involved, and because those issues can often be worked around pretty easily under normal ("old normal" lol) conditions. There are lots of people who don't even know they HAVE a problem wearing a mask until they actually do it the first time.

Trying to impose a documentation requirement would likely result in enough pushback (because it's not reasonable) that the whole mandate would fall apart. MANY MORE people would not respect it AT ALL, if the exemptions were not included exactly as they are.

I think the people who wrote the laws knew perfectly well what they were doing. The exemptions are there for a good reason, documentation is not required to claim medical exemption for a good reason.

People who take it upon themselves to try to impose THEIR OWN PERSONAL FEELINGS about the mandate, and how they FEEL it ought to apply to other people (or not), instead of accepting the law as written - those people are sh**birds.

Things like severe claustrophobia, anxiety, PTSD, etc. absolutely qualify

With a society where people are taking pills for these conditions, and now...medical marijuana...this would remedy that.

[major_merrick]

On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2020 at 11:50 AM, regine_phalange said:

No offence, but no one cares if you get it. Masks are used to protect others from our own microspit when we talk sneeze or cough. 

Cool.  Personally, I don't care if you get it either.  Not to be cold, but your health is not my problem.  And since I don't have the virus, and I dislike being around most people anyways....everybody else's risk of acquiring it from me is basically zero.  😇 

As for the leftist "dream list" of fines....hard to fine somebody who won't give an ID.  Or stop walking away when told not to...  I don't know any reasonable officer who will risk getting hurt over a mask.  And of those who would, I have a hard time imagining one who would reject a claimed medical exemption due to ADA and HIPAA lawsuits (ie. nobody has to divulge health info).  This method of resistance is called "freedom."  Get some for yourself....you'll be surprised how much you enjoy it once you stop being scared.   

[basil67]

1 hour ago, major_merrick said:

As for the leftist "dream list" of fines....hard to fine somebody who won't give an ID.  Or stop walking away when told not to...  

No, it's not hard.  Plenty of countries do it.     

 

 

[major_merrick]

@basil67  ....and here in the States, many of us call those nations tyrannical hellholes. 

It never ceases to amaze me...the irrepressible itch that so many people have to control the behaviors of those around them.  I seem to remember a quote from Lord of the Flies.... "And we'll have rules!  Lots of rules!  Then when anybody breaks 'em...."

Edited August 7, 2020 by major_merrick

[gaius]

On 8/5/2020 at 5:28 PM, Kitty Tantrum said:

I don't "have to," so that can't possibly be the root of my complaint. The root of my complaint is that I see people in my community essentially being persecuted for non-conformity by dumb, aggressive, emotionally volatile people who think that "anti-maskers claiming bogus exemptions" is a big huge thing everywhere. My complaint is that many people have adopted a personal approach of "It is my job as a private citizen to amend, interpret, and enforce this law - and I've decided that nobody is exempt because more is always better and everyone who says they're exempt is a liar."

I thought I'd already explained that all in a bit more detail than was even necessary, so I can't help but get the impression that you're just struggling to paint me according to some preconceived notion that you have of me based on our differences of opinion or perspective. Shrug.

I'm not struggling to paint you as anything Kitty. What I'm struggling with is trying to figure out exactly who are these people are that you're so nobly sacrificing your own exemption for. Who's lives apparently have no meaning if they can't prance around in the grocery store without a mask on. I have a pretty vivid imagination and can't come up with a single idea of the kind of person you might be talking about.

When people on here make arguments that don't really compute, ie "I'm sacrificing my own exemption for a group of people that doesn't seem to actually exist" there's usually some other motivation at play that isn't being directly talked about. And since the main thrust of your argument is that exceptions should be made for certain people for who wearing a mask isn't even dangerous, and those people should be treated with the utmost respect wherever they go, the only thing that really makes sense is that you yourself don't want to wear one but you do because you don't want to be the subject of harassment. And it bothers you that people aren't going to accept you not wearing a mask lightly. Even though you feel it's your legal right.

Now I could be wrong, there's always a possibility, but if you're going to keep refusing to provide any actual examples of these people who just really need an exemption or else their lives are ruined, I'm going to stick with what I said before.

 

[major_merrick]

@gaius  I'll provide a couple of examples of folks who could legitimately use a medical exemption. 

1.  My mother-in-law.  Multiple conditions.  She wears a REAL N95 mask the proper way for shopping, but has to keep trips to 10 mins or less because she needs more oxygen than she can actually get through the mask.

2.  My husband.  His lungs were damaged a few years back due to a toxic chemical spill.  He has about 50% of the lung function of a normal person his age.  Like my MIL, a few minutes wouldn't be an issue but more than that might be.  Who knows how long a trip to the store will take?

3.  Truck driver at my husband's company.  75 years old.  Had one lung removed due to injury in military service. 

4.  My husband's Wife #1.  Mentally "different" after an accident years ago.  Sometimes has seizures, also has claustrophobia and other fears.  Forcing a mask onto her simply for others' peace of mind?  Not gonna happen. 

That's just people in my immediate circle, and that's just the issues I know about.  For what its worth, I don't see people "prancing about" in stores.  When I go, I see other people just going about their business like usual, mask or not.  I avoid the crowded times of day simply because I don't like waiting.  But when I shop, it isn't that hard to do social distancing, if that's your thing.  I'm not a fan of getting within 4-6 feet of people I don't know anyways, and there's plenty of room for someone who doesn't like my masklessness to simply walk away.  Persecuting people or accosting them in public for non-conformity.....get within 10ft of someone while acting aggressively and I don't think COVID is your biggest worry anymore.