The loopholes (thermoregulation) that anti-maskers are trying to grasp

[regine_phalange]

5 hours ago, major_merrick said:

Cool.  Personally, I don't care if you get it either.  Not to be cold, but your health is not my problem.  And since I don't have the virus, and I dislike being around most people anyways....everybody else's risk of acquiring it from me is basically zero.  😇 

As for the leftist "dream list" of fines....hard to fine somebody who won't give an ID.  Or stop walking away when told not to...  I don't know any reasonable officer who will risk getting hurt over a mask.  And of those who would, I have a hard time imagining one who would reject a claimed medical exemption due to ADA and HIPAA lawsuits (ie. nobody has to divulge health info).  This method of resistance is called "freedom."  Get some for yourself....you'll be surprised how much you enjoy it once you stop being scared.   

If we turn it to philosophical, I never thought my freedom should put others at risk. If anyone wants to do as they please without any regard for others, then they should live away from society and all the perks that come with it.

[gaius]

@major_merrick People don't have to wear N95's. It's perfectly acceptable to throw on a surgical mask which is a lot easier to breathe in. And if someone has a mental condition which means they're going to freak out if they have a mask on then they can take advantage of having a store employee shop for them or doing curbside pickup. Their lives are not ruined or even really impeded that much by not being allowed inside. There are enough options around that you can still get pretty much anything done.

If the only thing holding some people back from grabbing an exemption when they don't really need one is the social shamers then a round of applause for them.

Edited August 7, 2020 by gaius

[QuietRiot]

7 hours ago, gaius said:

I'm not struggling to paint you as anything Kitty. What I'm struggling with is trying to figure out exactly who are these people are that you're so nobly sacrificing your own exemption for. Who's lives apparently have no meaning if they can't prance around in the grocery store without a mask on. I have a pretty vivid imagination and can't come up with a single idea of the kind of person you might be talking about.

When people on here make arguments that don't really compute, ie "I'm sacrificing my own exemption for a group of people that doesn't seem to actually exist" there's usually some other motivation at play that isn't being directly talked about. And since the main thrust of your argument is that exceptions should be made for certain people for who wearing a mask isn't even dangerous, and those people should be treated with the utmost respect wherever they go, the only thing that really makes sense is that you yourself don't want to wear one but you do because you don't want to be the subject of harassment. And it bothers you that people aren't going to accept you not wearing a mask lightly. Even though you feel it's your legal right.

Now I could be wrong, there's always a possibility, but if you're going to keep refusing to provide any actual examples of these people who just really need an exemption or else their lives are ruined, I'm going to stick with what I said before.

 

I'm surprised that, at this point in the pandemic, why is this whole mask thing STILL debateable?

If we turn it to philosophical, I never thought my freedom should put others at risk. If anyone wants to do as they please without any regard for others, then they should live away from society and all the perks that come with it.

 

Yeah, just put 'em all on an island somewhere. LOL

Edited August 7, 2020 by QuietRiot

[QuietRiot]

31 minutes ago, gaius said:

@major_merrick People don't have to wear N95's. It's perfectly acceptable to throw on a surgical mask which is a lot easier to breathe in. And if someone has a mental condition which means they're going to freak out if they have a mask on then they can take advantage of having a store employee shop for them or doing curbside pickup. Their lives are not ruined or even really impeded that much by not being allowed inside. There are enough options around that you can still get pretty much anything done.

If the only thing holding some people back from grabbing an exemption when they don't really need one is the social shamers then a round of applause for them.

Exactly...a surgical mask is no problem for anyone, even those with reduced lung capacity. Plus...how long does one really shop for, esp. if you have a list at the ready. It isn't rocket science.

[Redhead14]

4 hours ago, regine_phalange said:

I never thought my freedom should put others at risk.

Yep, freedom of speech doesn't make it ok to yell fire in a crowded space or nor does freedom mean it should be OK to drive drunk. 

The world is fighting an invisible enemy.  Its a shame that so many want to use the equivalent of "bone spurs" as a dodge to avoid helping the cause. 

[major_merrick]

My MIL wears an N95 because she has a poor immune system, otherwise she wouldn't bother.  Which is what people should do if they don' t want to get it.

And at this point in the pandemic, "the cause" is simply BS.  Just an excuse for people to be all self-righteous when they seek to control others.  

[regine_phalange]

1 hour ago, major_merrick said:

My MIL wears an N95 because she has a poor immune system, otherwise she wouldn't bother.  Which is what people should do if they don' t want to get it.

And at this point in the pandemic, "the cause" is simply BS.  Just an excuse for people to be all self-righteous when they seek to control others.  

Wrong. If someone with the virus, who is not wearing a mask, coughs or talks near her, the microdrops can reach her eyes. The virus passes from there as well.

It's not a cause, it's common sense to avoid infecting others (8 in 10 in England who have tested positive were asymptomatic at the time if test). And it's common sense to try and decrease the rate of infection until there are treatments available. Hospital ICUs can't contain too many people and ventilators are not unlimited. Here in Europe medical staff had to choose who will live or die because of that. This is why we take these precautions. 

[basil67]

19 hours ago, major_merrick said:

@basil67  ....and here in the States, many of us call those nations tyrannical hellholes. 

It never ceases to amaze me...the irrepressible itch that so many people have to control the behaviors of those around them.  I seem to remember a quote from Lord of the Flies.... "And we'll have rules!  Lots of rules!  Then when anybody breaks 'em...."

And yet, they achieve what you say is impossible.   And because your assertion has been proved incorrect, you resort to insulting the countries who've proved you wrong.  

[Kitty Tantrum]

After this I'm disengaging, because I can see that I was correct in assuming that folks like @gaius and @QuietRiot come from a perspective too disparate from my own for any common ground to be uncovered. Even though I suspect when this all washes out, our positions are maybe not quite as far distant as they might seem at first blush, productive discussion does not seem possible when emotional investment is present and common perspective is absent.

I AGREE that social shaming as a tactic to reduce fake exemption claims is good - BUT ONLY if it actually protects the exemptions of those with legitimate conditions. NOT if it is used to discriminate against people with disabilities and other legitimate exemptions. That's what I'm saying. And I see much more of the latter than the former in my highly-compliant corner of the world. If I was some kinda jerk going around with a camera to record other people's shameful moments and upload them to social media I could show you, but I'm not.

I'd be all for cracking down on "fake exemptions" in my area, if I actually saw that happening. My reasoning for that is twofold: first of all, if we assume for the sake of the argument that this virus is exactly as scary as most people think it is (which I'm willing to do, even though, full disclosure, I am skeptical of that too), then the people who qualify for the exemption don't need to be put at-risk by a much larger group who just "don't wanna" and probably aren't very cautious in other ways either. But this still presupposes the second of all, which is that the people who do qualify for the exemptions should not have their established legal/medical rights trampled, on account of the abuses of others - and this seems to be socially inevitable, in direct subversion of the law, when this problem is (or is simply perceived to be) widespread.

Another thing, a "third of all," if you will, is that people hiding behind a fake exemption is WEAK SAUCE if the real reason they don't want to wear a mask is because they don't think they should "have to." If you are to the point where you are willing to "blow your civil resistance load" over this... by not actually RESISTING the law, but by finding a weaselly way of lying to hide behind part of it and screeching that nobody can make you do XYZ for whatever legalistic hair-splitting reason... GTFO with that. I don't want you pretending to be in my corner in the event that REAL resistance ever becomes necessary. Yikes.

At the end of the day, I still contend, as I always have, that it will prove VERY DIFFICULT to actually make any formal citations/fines/charges actually STICK - to anyone - because of the way the mandates were issued and written (I imagine the only charges that will stick will be the extra ones tacked on for other violations stemming from confrontation). But that's beside the point.

What IS to the point is that wearing a mask doesn't have to "ruin someone's life" for their exemption to be both valid and PRUDENT. Discomfort or difficulty substantially in excess of the norm is enough (and that's up to the individual's doctor and/or the law to determine; not the public at large). It is correct that the vast majority of people are not substantially put out by wearing a mask in the majority of situations in which they are required. However, some ARE. For someone like me, and others like @major_merrick mentioned, one of the biggest things is simply duration. I can do 5-10 minutes. Beyond that, you will invariably see me lifting the bottom of my mask on the inhale. 5-10 minutes isn't much; sometimes that's just the queue. Not every establishment can offer special accommodations to everyone who can't or won't wear a mask. Not everyone can get their groceries delivered. Etc. Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances - like often I have to walk to the store instead of driving, if it's warm out, that narrows my window to about nothing, and I have to frequently lift the mask a little bit. The people who wrote the mandate understood that, and included exemptions accordingly; why is it so hard for the supposedly "pro-science" folks to wrap their heads around? I don't get it.

Trust the experts. Trust the science. They did these calculations and risk assessments so that you don't have to. Remember?

Over and out. ❤️

Edited August 7, 2020 by Kitty Tantrum

[Shining One]

20 hours ago, major_merrick said:

 ....and here in the States, many of us call those nations tyrannical hellholes.

Can you quantify "many" or cite data to back this up? I've traveled quite a bit of the US (mostly the coasts, but some flyover states). I've never heard anyone refer to those nations as tyrannical hellholes or anything similar to that. The closest I've heard was in reference to North Korea from a South Korean.

Edited August 7, 2020 by Shining One

[major_merrick]

39 minutes ago, basil67 said:

And yet, they achieve what you say is impossible.   And because your assertion has been proved incorrect, you resort to insulting the countries who've proved you wrong.  

I would call the "achievement" of sticking people with fines a perfect example of the term I used.  Worthy of insult.  I never said it was impossible all over the globe anyways - my focus is on the USA.   

I wonder how these utopian locations have achieved it?  Not that the details of the process are particularly relevant to this thread, but....if they''re gonna fine somebody for walking around without a mask, they need a name and probably an address.  Which means they gotta get ID, since folks don't wear license plates on the seat of their pants. To do that, somebody has to convince the targeted person to give that information rather than walking away and telling them where to stick it.  Or use force, at which point whoever is attempting to issue the fine stands a good risk of getting hurt.  At least in some states, the use of force on the mask issue has been explicitly proscribed in governors' orders.  Unless these places have decided to be like Communist China and have facial recognition everywhere, and maybe mail them a ticket?  Or am I missing something? 

@Shining One  The penchant for citations on this site has gone INSANE.  I'm supposed to find citations for my personal conversations over the last two decades of my life?  By "many" I mean....like literally come to the rural Midwest or South, take a job swinging a hammer or driving a truck or something that is useful.  Talk with people....you'll find that the average Joe in flyover country has a low opinion of places that do forced vaccinations, force you to wear masks, keep you from owning guns, have higher taxes, etc....  People like to be left alone, and so you're not gonna get good statistics on opinions.  I suspect that's one reason why the polls failed to predict Trump's win in 2016....people don't want to talk unless they are comfortable. 

I used the word "hellholes," but that's because I've cleaned the wording up.  When people here are comfortable with their conversation partners and they talk about those places, the language is not within the boundaries of this forum.  Similar wording is used to describe domestic locations as well, such as California and New York. 

[basil67]

37 minutes ago, major_merrick said:

I wonder how these utopian locations have achieved it?  Not that the details of the process are particularly relevant to this thread, but....if they''re gonna fine somebody for walking around without a mask, they need a name and probably an address.  Which means they gotta get ID, since folks don't wear license plates on the seat of their pants. To do that, somebody has to convince the targeted person to give that information rather than walking away and telling them where to stick it.  Or use force, at which point whoever is attempting to issue the fine stands a good risk of getting hurt.  At least in some states, the use of force on the mask issue has been explicitly proscribed in governors' orders.  Unless these places have decided to be like Communist China and have facial recognition everywhere, and maybe mail them a ticket?  Or am I missing something? rk. 

Mask wearing is mandated in one of our states.  So there, the person would be requested to wear a mask.  They would be offered a mask if they don't have one.  If they refuse, they would then be arrested because they are breaking the law.  The person who issues the fine (police) do not stand a good risk of getting hurt because most Australians  (particularly the entitled ones- who are most likely to breach the law) don't go about carrying weapons.   They would be put in a police car and processed at the station.  

[major_merrick]

@basil67  Definitely different than here.  In my state, there's a mask mandate.  But the mandate specifically forbids arrest....I guess it is like jaywalking.  So if you're out walking around, you can refuse to identify and that's pretty much the end of it.  Since there's medical exemptions, all you have to do is say "I have a medical condition" and disability and medical records laws forbid them asking anything about it.  So essentially, enforcement here isn't going to happen. 

Even if it was an arrest issue, no officer is going to risk their safety over something minor like a mask....even if there weren't guns, there's still knives.  I think one good thing that has come out of all the protests lately is it has had a chilling effect on law enforcement's willingness to get into situations.  Even in the relatively left-leaning university town near me, the city cops and the sheriff stated they were not going to enforce it as they had real crimes to deal with and they were having staffing issues.

 

[basil67]

Regarding police having better things to do,  people here who take up police time by their refusal to wear a mask tend to go viral with much shaming and laughter going their way.   

[pepperbird2]

On 8/6/2020 at 7:24 AM, regine_phalange said:

I personally haven't seen anyone being harassed for wearing the wrong masks where I am. But I think that asking people to stand away from people who don't wear masks is like telling people who don't smoke that it's their responsibility to stay away from people who smoke when they smoke indoors. 

I genuinely think that there should be fair fines, costing at least as much as it would cost to stay 3 weeks in an intensive care unit multiplied by the percentage of people who end up there. Plus funeral costs multiplied by the percentage of people who die. 

I did.
Our government has pretty much told us that any face covering is okay, be it mask, cloth, a piece of paper towel, whatever. I wore one of the masks I usually use to keep from getting sick, and some guy at the Apple store decided it wasn't good enough and had me put another one on over top of it.
We left the store. The ironic thing is that the mask I was wearing actually works far better than the disposable one he tried to get me to put on over it. 

[vjk]

On 8/7/2020 at 7:00 AM, QuietRiot said:

Exactly...a surgical mask is no problem for anyone, even those with reduced lung capacity. Plus...how long does one really shop for, esp. if you have a list at the ready. It isn't rocket science.

Have you ever heard of trigeminal neuralgia?  A relative of mine has it. Just touching your nose  can trigger intense pain. Guess what the mask does.

[basil67]

@vjk  one can buy masks which have a vertical centre join and have the right amount of firmness to stop the mask from touching your nose.   They look kind of like a sideways parakeet beak.   I've also seen spacers which go between the face and the mask to minimise any draping of fabric on one's face.   There are adaptive solutions out there for those who struggle with the feel of fabric on faces.   

[vjk]

55 minutes ago, basil67 said:

@vjk  one can buy masks which have a vertical centre join and have the right amount of firmness to stop the mask from touching your nose.   They look kind of like a sideways parakeet beak.   I've also seen spacers which go between the face and the mask to minimise any draping of fabric on one's face.   There are adaptive solutions out there for those who struggle with the feel of fabric on faces.   

That wouldn't work.  It really affects a number of areas including face, forehead, mouth, and top of head.  The trigger points can move around. It's usually the nose and mouth. On a bad day, she can't even comb her hair or a gust of wind can trigger intense pain.  On those days, you don't leave home .

Edited August 16, 2020 by vjk

[jspice]

Then she should stay home. 

[vjk]

56 minutes ago, jspice said:

Then she should stay home. 

You know you won your argument for a medical exemption, countering the statement "a surgical mask is no problem for anyone", when someone responds with nonsense like that.   

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by vjk

[jspice]

20 minutes ago, vjk said:

You know you won your argument for a medical exemption, countering the statement "a surgical mask is no problem for anyone", when someone responds with nonsense like that.   

 

It’s a perfectly legitimate answer. Her personal problems are just that. Hers. 

[vjk]

21 minutes ago, jspice said:

It’s a perfectly legitimate answer. Her personal problems are just that. Hers. 

Not even close to perfect.   The mask imposes on a new external problem on her 100% of the time to pacify the personal fears of others who has far less than a 1% chance of getting COVID from her, especially when she goes out once every two weeks and keeps social distancing.    Why a candidate for a medical exception. 

 

[basil67]

1 hour ago, vjk said:

You know you won your argument for a medical exemption, countering the statement "a surgical mask is no problem for anyone", when someone responds with nonsense like that.   

 

People are quite comfortable suggesting that a disability which leaves someone more at risk should stay home.   Why should one disability stay home and not another?   

And of that person who's disability gives sensory issues with a mask, let's say they also have an intellectual disability which impacts their ability to manage their germs and social distance.    You want them out there coughing too close to you?

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by basil67

[Kitty Tantrum]

No intention of jumping back into the debate, but this seemed like a good place to drop a related complaint. Remember I'm wearing this thing in part FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU FANATICAL MASKERS, so you can listen to me gripe about it. 😉

I walked to the store earlier, few blocks, mid-afternoon, warm day but didn't feel overheated. Put my mask on right before I went inside. Very lightweight, single layer cotton. Air conditioned inside the store.

Just last Summer, in those glorious maskless days of yesteryear, I would do things like stash a sweater in my backpack AT ALL TIMES even when walking on warm days because stores are usually too cold for me.

The mask was WET by the time I left... like < 10 minutes later, almost all of it spent in the freezer section. I had sweat rolling down my spine and into my butt crack. My upper lip and the sides of my nose were burning from the sweat and heat and I HAD to pull the mask away from my face to breathe because the airflow was so reduced.

It was gross.

And when I stepped out of the air conditioned building and into the 80+ degree sunshine and started walking home - and took the mask off - I started cooling down.

You're welcome. ❤️

You don't have to pat me on the back for being so magnanimous and righteous in my suffering, I already did.

[basil67]

It's OK @Kitty Tantrum, pretty much everyone is having the same discomfort.  They know what you're experiencing.  It's far from pleasant, but they suck it up.