What have I gotten myself into?

[Ladyjane14]

And yeah shes said a few hurtful things and I did speak up calmly telling her if something she said or did made me feel bad. It actually did make me feel better to get it off my chest instead of letting it fester. But it probably didn't help her any.

 

Allowing her to say hurtful things to you without consequence doesn't help her.

 

She hurts herself when she hurts YOU...so you just keep letting her know when she steps on your toes.

[midlifecrazy]

Thanks LJ, very insightful and eye opening. We're still just muddling through though. Read a newspaper article the other day ( I think the author's name was Goldsmith, he has a website) about how people become estranged and drift into divorce. The steps he outlined in the alienation process seem far too familiar to me. It's funny how the intimacy just sort of fades away. When I started on this a year ago it seemed it was all about sex. Now it's gotten to the point that I don't even care to entertain the idea of being intimate with her. That's not just making love. It includes hugging, touching, kissing, cuddling caressing, everything. She doesn't seem to need, want or welcome it or miss it when it's gone. It feels like that part of me has just been starved to death.

 

Yet, for reasons I've stated before, I'm still not ready to divorce. It could still come. I'll put up with neglect but I won't put up with any other kind of mental or verbal abuse. She's been in a sour mood lately. Had a re-run of the radio incident. Song came,a new one I think it's called "Listen to your heart" kind of a techo-bop thing. Anyway I like it and had it up pretty loud. Pulled into the driveway and parked and was waiting for it to end. She sticks her head out the door and yells "what are you doing?" Listening to the radio,says I. "That sounds like ghetto music"says she. So?says I.

"It sounds like gay music" says she. So? says I again.

I go in the house and say "I like what I like". "You're 53 years old" she says.

To which I reply "Well you got to have a little fun sometimes." She had no reply and that was the end of that exchange.

 

I know she has a lot of issues but I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps she doesn't have some mental health problems that are of even more serious significance than I thought. She still has the crying jags which are I guess are because of depression she won't get help for. But I would estimate that 25% to 50% of our conversations per day are tinged with what seems like barely concealed hostility toward me. And sometimes things are really weird. I was setting the table the other day and said I wondered where all the steak knives were. She immediately went into conflict mode and said that was all there were or had been for a long time. I know for certain that this is positively untrue. For some reason she was ready to fight about it. But I just dropped it.

 

There is a history of mental problems in her family. If things worsen I can begin to see that an ultimatum may eventually become necessary. If she still refuses to get help when I can no longer stand it then it will probably be time to part ways. That sounds like running out on someone when they're sick. Would it be?

[Ladyjane14]

If things worsen I can begin to see that an ultimatum may eventually become necessary. If she still refuses to get help when I can no longer stand it then it will probably be time to part ways. That sounds like running out on someone when they're sick. Would it be?

 

I don't know, kiddo. If they get down past the point of reasoning, then maybe yeah...it could be viewed as 'running out' on a sick person.

 

But I don't think she's to that point yet, do you? If she's still capable of making choices, then shouldn't she be held accountable for the choices she makes?

 

Why do you want to wait until you've 'run out of gas' on this? Your love tank is getting emptier by the day. Do you think maybe underneath it all, it's because what you want most is for the marriage to end?

[Mz. Pixie]

Why do you want to wait until you've 'run out of gas' on this? Your love tank is getting emptier by the day. Do you think maybe underneath it all, it's because what you want most is for the marriage to end?

 

Because he's content at this point to continue to mull it over and stew about it and hope that when it comes down to it he doesn't have to look like the bad guy by ending it....

 

MLC- have you tried approaching her from the standpoint of "Baby, I'm extremely worried about your health, you're crying alot and I was wondering if perhaps you'd see someone to alleviate my worries. I'm sure the kids and grandkids want you to be healthy as well" If she won't do it for herself or for you, perhaps she would do it for the kids and grandkids??

 

MLC, you blow me away. You're either a very upright moral man with the patience of Job or you are the biggest conflict avoider of all time who is content to be miserable. After all of these posts I still can't figure out which one you are. Do you even know?

[midlifecrazy]

Pixie, I thought you would have figured me out. I'm Jekyll and Hyde Together Again, WOOHAHAHA. Seriously, though, I guess maybe I really am not sure either. I am patient or I wouldn't still be here. I don't seek out conflict but when it's needed I won't shirk from it. I don't like to engage in it needlessly and when I do it's serious business to me. I haven't reached the point yet where I feel it's time for a final conflict.

 

I don't know about the "do it for the kids" ploy, haven't tried that particular approach. After her reaction the last time we went to a counselor though, it would have to be under a peculiar set of circumstances that I would suggest it to her. You may recall she said she would never, ever do anything like that (counseling) again.

 

LadyJ, do I want the marriage to end? The easy answer is no, or it would be over but that's really too easy. I guess I too have Dithteritis. I've thought about and its's sometimes yes and sometimes no depending on what kind of a day we're having. Yes she needs to be accountable but she manages to avoid that like I avoid conflict so you can understand why we never seem to get anyplace. It will probably take a Veusuvian eruption for us ever to really change the status quo. I don't know, sometimes I think maybe it's just me that's nuts.

[Ladyjane14]

.....depending on what kind of a day we're having.

 

And which one of you chooses "what kind of a day" you're going to have?

 

You know something, MLC..... I've learned something pretty valuable today. And I've got you to thank for it.

 

People have a tendancy to absorb the moods of others...everybody knows that. And some people are more effected by it than others. But until just this minute, I never gave credence to just how hurtful it can be.

 

I've noticed in my own husband a tendancy to absorb my mood. If I'm crabby....he's just not himself. I'm thinking maybe he's internalizing it to some degree. He does seem to do a little better when I'm able to give him a legitimate reason for why I'm moody on any given day...particularly if it absolves HIM of any guilt in the matter.

But even then, he's still bothered by it.

 

I wonder if that's tied in to a man's knee-jerk reaction to "fix" things???

 

Anyway, I'm going to be a little more conscious of it in the future, and I hope you will be too. Because we both know that at the end of the day, we aren't really responsible for anybody else's moodiness. We can let them carry their own bags on that.

[silktricks]

I've noticed in my own husband a tendancy to absorb my mood. If I'm crabby....he's just not himself. I'm thinking maybe he's internalizing it to some degree. He does seem to do a little better when I'm able to give him a legitimate reason for why I'm moody on any given day...particularly if it absolves HIM of any guilt in the matter.

But even then, he's still bothered by it.

 

I wonder if that's tied in to a man's knee-jerk reaction to "fix" things???

.

 

I know what you mean LJ. Both my husband and I (we're both "fixers") tend to take on responsibility for the other's moods (when bad at least , we never seem to claim to be the reason fro the good ones )

 

Like you, if I can give him a reason for my bad mood, or he for his, we seem to do better. (It actually turned out that a lot of the reason for our problems were this very thing, so we've been working on it a LOT.)

[midlifecrazy]

I guess when your really get down to it.LadyJ, we each choose what kind of day we're going to have. Case in point being the radio incident. I was feeling good and if she was in a bad mood like she sounded, well that was just her problem. I wasn't going to let her smartass comments bring down and they didn't. I wasn't rude about it, that's kind of what I meant by telling her sometimes you just have to have some fun. If she can't see that, I'm sorry for her, but ulimately she is responsible for her own happiness.

 

You hit on a sore point about a guy's normal reaction of trying to fix things. Many times in the past when she's had complaints or told me about problems I've tried to offer my help or come up with solutions. I can not tell you how many times I've been astounded to suddenly find that I have become the problem for wanting to fix things. "There's nothing you can do help, so just leave it/me alone", is usually the gist of the conversation. If you analyze that it's really an attack or putdown on so many subtle levels. At least that's how it comes across. I've noted before that I may be a slow learner but things do eventually sink in. When she tells me about problems nowadays I go with a simple "that's too bad, anything I can do to help"? If the answer is no I just let it go.

[Jessie61]

MLC,

 

I do have sympathy for your situation. It cannot be easy. But it is time to stop sitting on the fence. You either choose to stay at home and work on the marriage, or you leave to persue the DG.

 

You say that you have decided (or kind of decided...?) to stay. If that is the case, then you must put all thoughts about DG to one side and forget about her. Does she have her own "agenda"? I doubt it very much. You must leave her alone and actively avoid her if necessary. Don't be tempted to drag her into this; it would only confuse you, and hurt her AND your W.

 

So, try it out at home with all your available resources (mentally, physically, emotionally). If it works, great! If it doesn't, then leave to persue other interests. Don't do both at the same time. It doesn't work.

[Guest]

minds think alike. How consequential. To arrived here, required much ado!

 

Am I readily awake? Or SIMPLY like you? I see and acquired thru much repeated attempts to do so. Luck is not the norm but thru diligent questioning one own mind. How I have.

 

The choice is all ours! Does this make me alarm?! No. --...Experience can calm the heart, or take it away. And feeling thus, claim the same. Get feet planted firmly by way of resilience, overcome obstacles, and yet still have ahead defeat, or anewed G/F or do by what comes naturally and instilled in our hearts.

 

Funny. All the while looking, and when stop looking for answers, we realize, maybe it will come. I am blessed. So are you. Never give what we feel and seek, whatever may come our way. Or denied. Unfortunately, this may block all avenues to the chance we so desire.

 

how do we do it? I await future answers if so welcome, I to you prefer so much!

 

Thank you!

[midlifecrazy]

I'm wondering if I've gone past the "tipping point" in my feelings toward MW. I no longer have any desire to make love to her or be intimate at all. The one thing I can tell you we're not is we're not lovers. I feel like I live with a co-worker or a roomate not someone who you would expect to love you. I don't feel it from her at all, not one bit.

 

The funny thing is she's acutally been improving in her appearance, losing weight, letting her hair grow (which I always liked long and she always kept short). We have an event coming up later this year which probably accounts for the change. But there's a sneaking paranoid bit of my brain that wonders if maybe since I don't try to have sex with her anymore, it's now safe for her to make herself more attractive.

 

I sat there looking at her today and tried to kindle up some sexual feelings for her,tried to get an erotic fantasy of her going and couldn't do it. Been burned once too often I guess. Earlier this year she made the comment that for her sex was only a "wifely duty". Well thanks, but no thanks. That sure isn't conducive to my idea of passion. I'd sooner do without.

 

One thing I've learned here on LS is that there are a lot of other people (mostly guys) going through the same thing, just at various stages along the way. I think I am at the bitter end. When we go to weddings my stifled desire is to shout out "run, run before it's too late". Then they'll read the part from Chronicles about "love being patient, forgiving etc" and I think about our marriage DNA.

 

All that being said, for a variety of reasons I'm still sticking put. DG is indeed out of the picture, Jessie. I think that's something that will never happen or anything like it. But while I'm not actively looking for someone else to have an affair with, if another "Dream Girl" would come along and be interested in me, would anyone blame me?

[whichwayisup]

But while I'm not actively looking for someone else to have an affair with, if another "Dream Girl" would come along and be interested in me, would anyone blame me?

 

No, but I would hope that you'd end your marriage before you allowed yourself to get involved physically or emotionally with someone else.

 

Life is too short to sit and be just a roommate to your wife. For your happiness, and her happiness, maybe it's time to have that talk..............

[Mz. Pixie]

But while I'm not actively looking for someone else to have an affair with, if another "Dream Girl" would come along and be interested in me, would anyone blame me?

 

Well I would. Because it's completely ridiculous for you to do that instead of just sitting down and having a real conversation with her about what's going on in your marriage. Or just because "you don't want to rock the boat".

 

If you never change what you're doing you're bound to get the same results.

[Ladyjane14]

Well I would. Because it's completely ridiculous for you to do that instead of just sitting down and having a real conversation with her about what's going on in your marriage. Or just because "you don't want to rock the boat".

 

If you never change what you're doing you're bound to get the same results.

 

Ditto MzPixie.

 

I'm never giving my blessings on the affair strategy anyway...but I have to wonder what it is that stops you from speaking your peace to your wife. What exactly do you stand to lose that you haven't already given up on?

[midlifecrazy]

Ladies, it's very interesting that you all picked up mainly on the affair reference. It was just an idle musing. It's never going to happen. I really wouldn't even begin to know where to start. A while back I ran into a guy who used to work at the same place I did. I don't know what brought it up but we started talking about all the affairs and cheating that had gone on there. I knew about some of it but from what he told me it was far more pervasive than I had ever dreamed, maybe 50% or more. Not just the men, the women too. I trust this person and have always found him reliable. I'm a pretty decent looking guy and just had to wonder so I said, "Where well the hell was I when all this was going on". He told me I had always carried myself as a dedicated family man who wouldn't get involved in such stuff so I was out of the loop. Sigh!

 

Well, now that I've got my armor spitshined to a high gloss... I see no reason to talk to her about things anymore. I tried everything I could for months on end with no discernible or lasting results. Talking about it would be like having a dog chained up to a tree in the yard and going out and hitting him with a stick. He'd bark and hurt and be unpleasant for awhile but eventually he'd settle back down and still be chained to the tree and nothing else would have changed.

 

Life is too short? Yes, it is. I figure I may have 20 years left give or take 5 or 10. I think I've blown it. I've waited too long to try for the happiness that some people are able to find in a signficant other. Her happiness, well she says she is so who am I to argue. Plus anymore I really don't view it as my job to be responsible for her being happy. As far as I'm concerned I guess I'll have to settle for the pleasure I get from being the 'patriarch" of the family and whatever other things I find to enjoy. Of course there's something to be said for stability and companionship too. Even if it's not great at least you're familiar with it ("comfortably miserable" I beleive someone said earlier).

 

Sorry this sounds like such a downer but it's just the way I see things now.

[Mz. Pixie]

It's a major downer. I hate to think you'd rather sit and stew about this, and subject yourself to a life of no sex and intimacy just because you're afraid to talk to her.

 

And you are afraid, period. It's not that you think it's spinning your wheels, you just don't want to do anything about it.

[FWIW]

I guess I'll have to settle for the pleasure I get from being the 'patriarch" of the family and whatever other things I find to enjoy. Of course there's something to be said for stability and companionship too. Even if it's not great at least you're familiar with it ("comfortably miserable" I beleive someone said earlier).

 

Why settle? If you split up you're only leaving your wife, not the whole family, so you'll still be the 'patriarch". And you'll still have those "whatever other things I find to enjoy". It's all about YOU and your WIFE - and if THAT isn't working, and is hopeless, why prolong the agony?

[midlifecrazy]

MzP, I think we have to agree to disagree. I don't accept your view that I'm afraid to talk to her. It's just that I am simply out of BREATH and anymore, quite frankly,my dear, I don't give a damn.

 

No sex, no intimacy? My first reaction is that it's pretty much been this way for 35 years, no sense in changing now. Then FWIW's post got me thinking. That's correct. I would still have the things mentioned. In fact I think I may have said something very similiar in one of my own posts quite a while ago.

 

So as cold and calculating as this sounds maybe it finally does come down to the mercenary aspects of the situation. Why throw away a good portion of my financial security with nothing but the HOPE of finding someone to meet my emotional needs? Sounds as if I AM looking to have a soft place to land before I'd ever take the leap, doesn't it?

 

But as I said before I am not looking,(though I do admit when I get the occassionial smile from an attractive lady I thoroughly enjoy it and smile right back:cool: ). The situation at home is not great but it's tolerable. While it seems as if not a day goes by without at least a little mutual sniping it doesn't usually escalate into something more. Once and awhile it will flare up into a major skirmish but then things settle down, the smoke clears and we return to our respective corners. Kind of like living on the 39th parallel in Korea.

 

Things can always change of course. She can increase her hostility toward me to the point of open and continuous contempt and disrespect. That would be enough. And (this is just a musing again) I wonder what may have happened if DG had shown up at a point in her life when she was available. Then too the thought has crossed my mind, what if MW's sudden interest in improving her appearance is prelude to HER dumping me! Wouldn't that be ironic!

[Jessie61]

 

All that being said, for a variety of reasons I'm still sticking put. DG is indeed out of the picture, Jessie. I think that's something that will never happen or anything like it. But while I'm not actively looking for someone else to have an affair with, if another "Dream Girl" would come along and be interested in me, would anyone blame me?

 

MLC,

 

I actually understand ( I think!) where you are coming from. I was in a longterm relationship which went completely stale and I took the initiative to break it up. Yes, loads of struggle from my BF but I realised that once I knew that I didn't love him anymore and that I didn't look for solutions within the relationship, that really spelled the end. Of course it was easier by the sheer fact that we weren't married with kids etc. But even if we had been, I would have left anyway.

 

I sense that you are (kind of) where I was then; you acknowledge that your M (as it should be) is over and eventhough you are not actively looking elsewhere but you do think about a Dream Girl coming along. No, I would certainly not blame you if another DG came along, but if that happens and you want to be part of her life, then you would have to be prepared to leave your M. If you really loved that DG, then you would not expect her to go through what all other OW's go though, would you? And you wouldn't want to pay your W the disrespect of an A, would you?

 

Personally, I preferred to already be in a situation where I COULD get involved with a Dream Guy, if he happened to come along. This is why I ended it; I realised that it was only a matter of time (weeks, months, years..) before I would find someone else. I thought it fairer to everyone if I was already single if and when it happened. Was it a huge risk? I mean, I could end up single for the rest of my life. Yes, it was a risk, but I was willing to take it, and it is a decision that I have never regretted.

 

I have read your posts and I find your situation so incredibly sad in a way. It sounds as though you have given up on life effectively. You shouldn't. There must be SOMETHING that you can do??? Other than hoping that your W will become more hostile or that she will dump you??? I don't believe that there is nothing for you to do. Is it possible that you are depressed? Should you talk to someone? If this is an even tiny possibility, then please seek help so that you can start dealing with what is wrong with your life. No one should have to face another 20 years (give or take 5 or 10) feeling like this!

[FWIW]

Glad I made you think!

 

Here's another way to look at it. How long is it going to be before you'll be too old to really care any more? Is it 10,15,20,25 years.. I don't know.. only you know. Pick your number, say it's 20. Now, chances are that if you become single and put yourself in places where you meet people then you'll find someone. The average time for a divorcee to remarry is 5 years, IIRC, and most do. If you leave, and you find someone special, you will be so happy you'll wish you'd left sooner.

 

But, if it still seems too unlikely, try this - imagine yourself in that 20 (or whatever) years time in either of the other two alternatives. You either stayed put and endured 20 years of 'comfortable misery' or you left and enjoyed your freedom but were unlucky enough to not find anyone worth bothering with. Which of these situations would be the worst? Which would give you the most regrets? Would you be happy that you stayed and never knew what you missed out on - or would you be happy you'd left because at least you gave yourself chances and you didn't tie yourself down to that hopeless rut, you gave it your best chance.

 

???

[Mz. Pixie]

MzP, I think we have to agree to disagree. I don't accept your view that I'm afraid to talk to her. It's just that I am simply out of BREATH and anymore, quite frankly,my dear, I don't give a damn.

 

 

So as cold and calculating as this sounds maybe it finally does come down to the mercenary aspects of the situation. Why throw away a good portion of my financial security with nothing but the HOPE of finding someone to meet my emotional needs? Sounds as if I AM looking to have a soft place to land before I'd ever take the leap, doesn't it?

 

 

 

How can you be out of breath when you've never actually had the discussion with her that you need to have? Point blank "I'm not happy and frankly I feel like you don't care about me- you are not meeting my needs" etc. The same words that we've been repeating over and over??

 

If finances are the true reason you're staying then you certainly better make sure that you don't get caught cheating. You think you guys would have trouble getting divorced? You ain't seen nothing yet to what she would do if she caught you cheating!

[midlifecrazy]

Sorry about the delay in responding to some very good posts but it was unavoidable. And there are indeed some great, thought provoking comments among them. This is what I love about LS, it's kind of like group therapy on the cheap.

 

It's been a real interesting time since I last posted and things have definetly taken a turn recently but I think I'll answer the posts as I would have a few days ago and then bring you up to date on the current situation.

 

Mz P, Yes I have had all those talks with her over the course of the past year.

 

"I'm not happy" me

"That's your problem. I am." she

"I don't feel like you care about me",me

"I don't know what to do about that" she

"You're not meeting my needs",me

"Then you better find somebody who can", she.

 

The possibility of an affair having a financial affect on a divorce is not an issue because that is not taken into account in our state. And in that worst case scenario I don't think she'd want to bring it up anyway for fear of retaliation..

 

FWIW, Which alternative would be better? At first glance you would think the obvious answer is to bail out and hope to find a soul mate. But it's not quite so simple. There is a scene at the end of "MacArthur" where he is addressing the cadets at West Point. He says something like "Always remember it is the Corps. And the Corps. And the Corps." For me it is the family, and the family and the family. Although 40 years ago I would never have forseen myself as being such a family man, a "patriarch", perhaps I have just allowed myself to drift a bit much here in the middle of midlife crisis.

 

Jessie, yeah I get down at times. It usually seems as if there is good reason to though. If anything I'm probably manic-depressive. I always seem to bounce back. Honestly, all in all, I think I'm in fairly decent mental shape. At least that's what the voices in my head keep telling me. As far as the marriage situation, well, read on.

 

Now we get to the good stuff. I had been debating on the next time MW asked me to make love to her (fulfilling I suspected what she saw as her "wifely duty") whether to turn her down flat or ask that she make love TO me. Well the day finally came and I opted for the latter.

 

She kind of whined about it but I didn't give in. She asked a second time and I still didn't make a move on her. Then she asked for a back rub. Well I'm no fool. I knew where this was going but I played along. The back rub turned into a nude full body massage. I said "Mrs. Robinson, I think you're trying to seduce me". No reply. I bent over and whispered in her ear. "If I make love to you this time, I'm going to expect to start making love to you when I want from now on. Is that all right with you?"

 

"MMmHmm"

"OK?"

"OK".

 

So out came the baby oil to finish the massage and then... Oh Lordy then. We embarked on one of the longest, most intense and varied lovemaking sessions we've ever had. It was remarkable. I had really forgotten how mindblowing great sex really is. This brought it back. In spades. I was actually sore the next day, but the it was the kind of soreness that just makes you smile to yourself. And I know she felt the same way.

 

This may have been a double-edged sword though. Now that I've had that feeling again I absolutely want MORE. I hope she's as good as her word about being receptive to it.

 

As an aside I happened to run into DG yesterday and we exchanged very brief pleasantries but that was it. And you know what? Maybe it's because of being sexually satiated, maybe something else, but there was nothing there. No spark, nothing. So I guess that's a good thing. Maybe that obsession has finally run its course.

[Mz. Pixie]

Well, I think that's awesome MLC. Perhaps things are taking a turn for the better???

 

As far as the adultery and the divorce proceedings go- from what I can remember your wife has never worked- which would certainly be a consideration in alimony payments. I also have a feeling as well that you would feel guilty about leaving her and not "taking care of her" so that would play into it as well. It may be a no fault state but that doesn't mean you wouldn't feel some fault.

 

What I mean by actual conversation is not throwing quips out. I mean saying "I need for this and this and this to occur or I'm going to have to explore other options" I don't think you've put it that way.

[Ladyjane14]

What I mean by actual conversation is not throwing quips out. I mean saying "I need for this and this and this to occur or I'm going to have to explore other options" I don't think you've put it that way.

 

Yeah....I'm curious about that too.

"I'm not happy" me

"That's your problem. I am." she

"I don't feel like you care about me",me

"I don't know what to do about that" she

"You're not meeting my needs",me

"Then you better find somebody who can", she.

 

If you separate each of the above into separate issues for discussion:

 

1. "I'm not happy."

2. "I don't feel like you care about me."

3. "You're not meeting my needs."

 

How are you currently furthering each one and helping it to evolve into real negotiation? Or, is it just left after her rejoindering "quip" with no follow-up discussion?

[midlifecrazy]

I started this thread with a question "what have I gotten myself into". I think time has answered that, NOTHING. Whatever I imagined or fantasized about has dissipated. So perhaps it's time to close this out. Things are going moderately better. There are still things to work on but so far, so good. MW seems to be making progress in understanding my need for physical intimacy and I hope she is finding me more understanding of her.

 

I think we are communicating better, I guess time will tell. I'll start a new thread if things seem to turn sour again. Thanks for all your input, LadyJ, MzP,FWIW all the rest thanks for holding my hand thru my MLC. I'll just kibitz in and out of the posts for a while and other that that be 5 X 5 and on the side. Thanks again! Later

 

MLC