Sexism agianst men. does it exist?

[pepperbird]

There's lots written about misogyny, but what about negative attitudes about men? Are there some double standards to examine?

I believe there are. Topics such as  circumcision of male infants, women molesting boys, lack of funding for research in breast cancer in men etc. are all out there.

Many are ( and I believe they are correct) one hundred percent against female genital mutilation, but is there the same fervour in support of males? Why is circumcision not referred to as "male genital mutilation" ? Why is there a double standard when it comes to sex between a teacher and student? If it's a female, people get upset, if it's a guy, there's a sizable portion of the population who smirk or think it's okay.

Where should a physically/ mentally abused man go for support? Their local domestic violence shelter? They likely won't get much support there ( we have no problem getting funding for women's programs, but ones for abused men? That's like pulling teeth- men don't get abused, don't you know?). There's a nearly endless stream of government programming and services for women fleeing domestic violence but men?

The idea of a man being raped still gets snickers from many,  including women. Men's breast cancer? It's usually just a page or even a footnote if it's even mentioned at all, even though more than 25 percent of the  men diagnosed with it   ( usually IDC)  in a given year will die.

[mark clemson]

Wikipedia seems to think so:

Sexism is prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex or gender. Sexism can affect anyone, but it primarily affects women and girls.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism

[homecoming]

16 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

There's lots written about misogyny, but what about negative attitudes about men? Are there some double standards to examine?

I believe there are. Topics such as  circumcision of male infants, women molesting boys, lack of funding for research in breast cancer in men etc. are all out there.

Many are ( and I believe they are correct) one hundred percent against female genital mutilation, but is there the same fervour in support of males? Why is circumcision not referred to as "male genital mutilation" ? Why is there a double standard when it comes to sex between a teacher and student? If it's a female, people get upset, if it's a guy, there's a sizable portion of the population who smirk or think it's okay.

Where should a physically/ mentally abused man go for support? Their local domestic violence shelter? They likely won't get much support there ( we have no problem getting funding for women's programs, but ones for abused men? That's like pulling teeth- men don't get abused, don't you know?). There's a nearly endless stream of government programming and services for women fleeing domestic violence but men?

The idea of a man being raped still gets snickers from many,  including women. Men's breast cancer? It's usually just a page or even a footnote if it's even mentioned at all, even though more than 25 percent of the  men diagnosed with it   ( usually IDC)  in a given year will die.

There are some negative attitudes towards men, but these appear to be dying out, IMO. On social media, for example, the rise of the movement against toxic masculinity, encouraging men to be open about their mental health, etc. There are many organisations I can think of that offer support to male victims of DA, sexual abuse, poor mental health, etc. 

With the FGM issue, I would suggest it is because Female Genital Mutilation is often performed on older toddlers/girls/women, in typically unsanitary conditions, as a method of preserving the vagina for the future husband. With it comes a whole range of health problems, such as infertility, death, blood poisoning, etc. It's not performed for any reason relating to the girl/woman, and is a barbaric sexist practice. That's why it receives so much attention, and circumcision does not - although circumcisions do go wrong, occasionally, the risk isn't quite as great. 

For the points in bold, do you have any experiences of the attitudes you've mentioned? Or stats? Personally, I agree with what you've said, those attitudes do exist but are on the decline very rapidly.

[Emilie Jolie]

 

Men have been socially conditioned to breed (males, preferably), marry (attractive and fertile, preferably), provide and protect.

They are forced to be fathers of (or at least provide for) kids they might not want, they don't always have a say in abortions of babies they might want, they are judged on their height or their sporting ability (or lack thereof), SAHF are still looked down on in some conservative communities, they too are affected by arranged marriages, etc.

As for circumcision, I feel like it should be an individual decision upon adulthood rather than imposed by parents because of cultural or religious customs, though I would take my cue from Jewish men / Muslim men / African tribal groups or whoever is directly affected by it. I've seen antisemitic or Islamophobic people use that as an excuse to air their prejudiced views and I'd be wary of overstepping.

I know it's already been banned in Iceland, and a few Nordic countries have recognised it as genital mutilation. 

Male breast cancer is not sexism, I don't think - research is lagging on a lot of other stuff too (like endometriosis), so I don't think it's a gender thing.

[thefooloftheyear]

Meh...  I like my chances in a rape situation...😆

The biggest issue I see right now is the constant and never ending characterizing of men in sit coms and commercials as absolute bumbling and fumbling morons incapable of doing anything without the assistance of a woman....It's kinda stupid and not really representative of actual real life...are there some morons?  Absolutely, but it doesnt have to be all of them...as it is seemingly in all of these cases...If the genders were reversed here it would be so grave there would be congressional hearings and protests/riots over it....😆

TFY

[Prudence V]

5 hours ago, pepperbird said:

Why is circumcision not referred to as "male genital mutilation" ?

Oh believe me, white men do. African men, not so much. It’s part of initiation into manhood, something most African men embrace. It’s also been  correlated with lower levels of HIV transmission, better sexual health (because of better sexual hygiene) and many women will not have sex with an uncut man because 1) he’s considered “unclean” and 2) he’s seen as a boy. 

[basil67]

As someone wrote earlier, FGM is typically done in unhygenic conditions by a hack with the purpose of controlling women by removing sexual pleasure.    Where as male circumcision (while I don't agree with it) doesn't remove a man's ability to have and enjoy sex.   It actually seems to be the one thing which the US and Arabic countries have in common.   There also seems to be plenty of men who want their son to look like daddy.   For circumcision to change in the US, men need to start changing their attitudes.   

Female teacher and male student depends on the ages.  I've known men who, when younger, high-fived their 17yo mate for bagging the hot 23yo teacher.   While men do this, the issue remains one which nobody will take seriously.   Contrast that with a 14yo boy and she'll be going to jail no matter what.  I don't know anyone who would take the latter lightly.

Support for physical and mentally abused men?  They aren't asking for refuges - so why supply something which nobody asks for?    

Men's breast cancer?  There are many, many health issues across all genders and ages which get little attention.  This isn't a gender issue.   But if you want to make it one, I bet women can match men in terms of health issues which are under researched.  

Male rape?   A heap of men here were complaining about how it didn't get attention.  So I started a thread for them to talk about it.  Do you know what happened?  With the exception of one, they mocked it.  Some put on pretend girly voices and were 'there for each other'.    If this is what happens when people try to listen, why bother?

Thing is, if men aren't proactive in seeking change, nothing is going to change.  

 

[basil67]

10 minutes ago, Prudence V said:

Oh believe me, white men do. 

White men where?   It's gone out of favour here in Aus and has never been a thing in much of Europe.   Women manage quite well with an uncut penis.  

I know it's more common in the US, but surely a surgeon would not do the procedure without the husband's consent.   If he doesn't want it done, he needs to speak up.

Edited July 28, 2020 by basil67

[Prudence V]

4 minutes ago, basil67 said:

White men where? 

The men’s rights guys. The “I was circumcised as a kid and it’s abuse” guys - always white, though back home the percentage of circumcised men who are white is tiny. But it’s never African men (who are circumcised when they become men, as part of initiation) or the Muslim men (circumcised as infants) who complain; nor (usually, though there are a few exceptions) Jewish men (circumcised as infants). Usually it’s the WASPy men, the same guys who feel their masculinity is under threat because there are now ads for sanitary pads on the TV, or who feel women can’t be managers because “they’re too emotional” but themselves go into depression if their soccer team loses. 
 

 

[basil67]

Thinking further on refuges.   Women's refuges aren't for fleeing a man who was verbally or emotionally abusive.  They are for women who are running for their lives.    Yes, there are certainly men who leave a verbally or emotionally abusive woman.....but how many men are frightened that she'll get murdery?

[CAPSLOCK BANDIT]

Before the #MeToo movement became popularized, I would say it was a much harder time to find emotional support as a man... One of the benefits of the #MeToo movement is that it lended the credibility that women have, to all people and that is a really important distinction to make.

People are more than willing to listen to a man, because we have heard the horror stories of the nasty divorces, the nasty conduct at times, the court of public opinion deciding your fate before anyone else... These things happened and a lot of people were hurt as a result, on both sides, from true as well as false accusations.

Where I live, you are able to have a voice recorder and record people without their knowledge, as long as it is just you and them... The second you introduce a third party, you now have to divulge you are recording... Often, as a man, it is difficult to sway people's minds, not because you are a man, but because women are in general, able to understand their own emotions and use that understanding to manipulate the people around them, well, when you have a recording of them, what are they going to say then? They can't say anything, its a beautiful moment and maybe you let the court of public opinion decide her fate by sharing it with her friends or what have you, but either way, as a man, you definitely have proactive tools to enforce your credibility.

[amaysngrace]

I had both my sons circumcised as newborns but left my dogs intact.

Go figure. 
 

 

[DKT3]

Gender bias and insensitivity are equally common.  However,  men are expected to just deal with it. As mentioned before we are conditioned to not speak up in certain situations, mostly from fear of ridicule.  Example,  a college football buddy of mine was in an abusive relationship,  several of us has witnessed her hitting him and berating him.  Many of us thought it was something he could easily handle.  No one took it seriously until she shot him in the face. Luckily,  he only lost a few teeth and cant grow a full beard. Even with that she was sentenced to 36 months probation.  So how seriously can we take it.

It seems that several times a month we hear about a female teacher having inappropriate relationships with male students,  again these women are given what amounts to smacks on the hand because boys are expected to easily handle it. 

If as a boy you show emotions you are labeled as weak, worse yet, men girls will deem him undateable.  Which in turn silences many men from expressing themselves emotionally. 

We have a very tight window to squeeze through.  But you will rarely hear men complain about it, we were conditioned not too.

[DKT3]

Not all kids will view it that way, some will be traumatized no matter how hot the teacher is.

[amaysngrace]

It’s always been that men are valued less and are meant to keep to themselves.  Being quiet dates from back when men hunted.  They were solo and they were silent while women gathered fruit and vegetation together in a much more sociable endeavor.  
 

Men were our soldiers forced into enlisting.  They have been taught that their lives are less valuable time and again.  
 

It doesn’t make it right but when you compare physical strength between the two sexes a lot of the perceptions we hold do make sense. 
 

[thefooloftheyear]

3 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

Not all kids will view it that way, some will be traumatized no matter how hot the teacher is.

I dunno...There were a couple of teachers I would have loved to get my hands on...

That being said, it really has been something of a trend now("damaged" female teachers doing dope and having sex with these kids).....You hear of a story all the time, whereas in the past it was so rare, you never heard of it...If I had a son, I would not be high fiving anything, I'd be making sure that lowlife got the full brunt of the law..and that may not be all she got, either...

Society may never view it as on the same level, but in either case, even when consensual, there is a devious manipulation happening...Its not something to be taken lightly...

TFY 

[major_merrick]

Sexism against men DEFINITELY exists.  And it isn't women's fault, it is the fault of the government that sells fraudulent feminism to the masses.

Here's some stuff from my own life: My husband has a teaching degree.  Could not get hired into a school district in spite of experience, stellar credentials, and good references.  Meanwhile cute and ignorant college girls got hired right and left.  He's seen women in his business get promotions due to gender in spite of lack of ability.  He has found it very frustrating over the years, although he's managed to do well for himself.  He's largely had to go outside the mainstream system to find success.  Men are in a real bind these days.  There are the traditional expectations of provider/protector and the expectations of chivalry.  Yet modern feminism has mostly removed the need of women and children to have a provider and a protector, and many women see acts of chivalry as demeaning.  Men simply don't know what to do, who to be, or how to act. 

I see sexism around me, and I will admit to taking advantage of it.  For example, if I get in a conflict with a man in public, I can be as loud and aggressive as I want.  My male opponent will automatically be seen as the instigator and I will be seen as the victim, whether or not it is the truth.  I've used that bias as a tool to get what I want.....but in a just system it wouldn't be the case at all. 

If I chose to separate from my husband and family, I would automatically have custody of my children in just about any court.  If my husband and I were married in the sight of the law, I would have a definite advantage in divorce court.  In family and divorce matters, men are expected to bear extreme costs with almost zero benefit.  One guy I know is paying $1200 per month in child support - almost half his income!  I know that costs vary, but where I live it doesn't take anywhere NEAR that amount to support a child.  The courts are crazy, and the women take the child support money and do whatever they want with it and there is no oversight. 

But for all the "feminism" we see these days, why have women not fully benefited from it?  Why are women still suffering?  It is because the dominion of men has been replaced by the dominion of the state!!!  Rather than women being empowered to protect, provide, and be equal partners the state has come into the family and dictated how things will be.  Women are frequently able to achieve things at work because employers are afraid of the power of the state in a discrimination case.  That doesn't make for an equitable or profitable environment.  The government has enabled and encouraged women to be single mothers, which keeps women, men, and children POOR.  Women are encouraged to divorce, rather than to make their marriages work.  The women don't benefit, and the men and the children definitely don't benefit.  Only the state benefits through the power that it amasses for itself.  Family disruption, gender conflict, personal isolation, and poverty work to the advantage of those who grab power. 

 

[Fresh_Start]

You clearly haven't read some of the posts made by our female members if you have to even ask, OP. 

It's called misandry, by the way, and it does exist.

[basil67]

1 hour ago, amaysngrace said:

It’s always been that men are valued less and are meant to keep to themselves.    

Men were our soldiers forced into enlisting.  They have been taught that their lives are less valuable time and again.  

 

If men have always been valued less, suffrage would never have had to happen.  Historically, they had greater pay, the right to vote, the right to work as a parent, the right to own property, the right to get a loan.

In the West, women were prohibited from fighting on the front line until relatively recently.  You can't compare male to female here because women were prohibited from doing the role anyway.

[basil67]

1 hour ago, DKT3 said:

Not all kids will view it that way, some will be traumatized no matter how hot the teacher is.

Of course they will.  But guys have to stop giving a high five those who do enjoy it before it's taken seriously.

[basil67]

1 hour ago, enigma32 said:

There really is no support for abused men, just like there is no support for homeless men, despite the fact that men make up a bigger portion of the homeless population. I think there is something to this and I think society at large simply cares more about the wellbeing of women. 

There's little support for homeless people in general.  And FWIW, middle aged women are the fastest growing demographic in the homeless population.   It makes me so sad that nobody cares about them.  

1 hour ago, enigma32 said:

Last year, a female friend of mine basically tried to rape me after a night of drinking. I passed out on my couch at home and woke up to her going down on me and trying to get on top. I was so drunk at the time that I m surprised my equipment even cooperated with her. I pushed her off of me, left her, and then went to sleep in my bed. I am friends with the girls that work in the hair cutting place. I've been going to the same place for years now and they all know me well. I got my hair cut a couple days later and I told my story there. Everyone laughed at me. It was funny to them, a guy telling a story about how a woman basically tried to have sex with him while he was unconscious. Maybe if a woman told the same story, people would hesitate to believe right away, but would they laugh? Is raping women a joke too? I doubt it. And once people stopped laughing, no one suggested I press charges on her. Not one person has yet to mention that actually. To be fair, I don't feel the slightest bit upset or traumatized by the experience and I am still friends with the girl. If anything, I feel embarrassed for her more than anything. Would a woman feel the same way of roles were reversed? 

How did you deliver the story?  One's tone and story telling skills will completely change how the story is received.   I bet they also didn't tell you that you shouldn't have gotten drunk and that you should be more careful.

1 hour ago, enigma32 said:

Look at the research dollars that go into breast cancer vs testicular or prostate cancer and you will see how much more important society views women's lives  compared to men's lives. 

Breast cancer vs bowel cancer, vs lung cancer, vs brain cancer vs vaginal cancer vs ovarian cancer.   Breast cancer gets the largest amount of funding because of the promotion.   Nobody wants to hear about the unfashionable or embarrassing cancers no matter which gender.    The Australian cricket team have a breast cancer fundraiser day because the wife of one of the cricketers died from it.   If the men's cricket team raise money for breast cancer research because it's important to one of the men, is it still sexist?  

[gaius]

Men and Women are actually two different things. Having a different set of standards for different things isn't discriminatory or sexist.

I'm circumcised and the horror stories I've heard from guys who aren't, yeast infections, etc etc, thank god I was born before showing off how evolved you are by subjecting your kid to that became the trendy thing to do. 

[sothereiwas]

Men are massively more likely to die on the job, are expected to earn most of the money, are spectacularly more likely to die by suicide, and so on. It's really the worst managed patriarchy ever. 

We even get prostate cancer more. 

 

[DKT3]

8 hours ago, basil67 said:

Of course they will.  But guys have to stop giving a high five those who do enjoy it before it's taken seriously.

So do women who say other women are lying about rape need to stop before it's taken seriously?  

 It's not about which gender has it worst. You whole premise here seems to be saying oh no, women have it far worse. Problem is that's subjective.  How often were women forced into combat? When were children taken away from mothers because the father died?

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[gaius]

4 hours ago, enigma32 said:

Everyone laughed at me. It was funny to them, a guy telling a story about how a woman basically tried to have sex with him while he was unconscious. Maybe if a woman told the same story, people would hesitate to believe right away, but would they laugh? Is raping women a joke too? I doubt it. 

It took you about two seconds to push her off you and end the encounter. You were in control of whether it went down or not. In those situations the dynamic almost always favors the man so women are given more leeway and sympathy. Not a double standard, different standards for different things.

As far as abuse goes, my mother was abusive. Never quite crossing the line but bordering on sexual. Should I whine about it? Indulge in victim hood? Because it's only fair, since that's what women are allowed to do?

Every single man I know that does that ends up as a failure in life. A man is much better served by being taught to take the hit, get up, dust himself off and move on. And that's unfortunately being lost in this weird modern crusade to pretend all these different things are exactly the same.