Sexism agianst men. does it exist?

[basil67]

I would say that a lot of rape isn't taken seriously because of how both genders react to it.  I'm shocked when I read what some women write here about rape.  I'm horrified (but not surprised) that Major Merrick would use discrimination against men to her own advantage.

The things I'm reacting to haven't been quantifiable.  I'm not saying that women have it worst.    I like data.   While you haven't given sources for your stats, I do believe that men get more prison time for the same crimes as women.  If it's true, it isn't fair.   So what are you doing about it?   

How often are women forced into combat?  Google tells me that conscription ended in the US in 1972 and at that time, women hadn't yet been accepted in fighting roles. 

Why do 85% of women get to live off her husband's money?  Can you cite stats from a non biased source which explain how alimony is calculated?   We don't have it here, so I can't comment without further information.   

Why do non-athlete female university students receive 15-20% more aid to attend?   Are you talking about grants?  

I like the idea of encouraging women into math or science.  I also like the idea of encouraging men into childcare, teaching or nursing.  Different gender gives different perspectives.  If men aren't offered grants to study in roles which are typically female, then yes, that's discrimination.   Again, what are you doing about it?  

It's all well and good to point out inequities, but change takes time, effort and persistence from those who care.

[basil67]

6 minutes ago, gaius said:

As far as abuse goes, my mother was abusive. Never quite crossing the line but bordering on sexual. Should I whine about it? Indulge in victim hood? Because it's only fair, since that's what women are allowed to do?

You should absolutely report it because if she's a grandmother, the little ones need protection.  I would also be interested in how it affected you long term   (I'm not being sarcastic)

Edited July 29, 2020 by basil67

[Emilie Jolie]

6 hours ago, Prudence V said:

The men’s rights guys. The “I was circumcised as a kid and it’s abuse” guys - always white, though back home the percentage of circumcised men who are white is tiny. But it’s never African men (who are circumcised when they become men, as part of initiation) or the Muslim men (circumcised as infants) who complain; nor (usually, though there are a few exceptions) Jewish men (circumcised as infants). Usually it’s the WASPy men, the same guys who feel their masculinity is under threat because there are now ads for sanitary pads on the TV, or who feel women can’t be managers because “they’re too emotional” but themselves go into depression if their soccer team loses. 
 

 

True, countries that have banned circumcision or at least recognise it as genital mutilation are white-majority, often secular with small Jewish / Muslim communities comparatively. Nordic countries are usually viewed as pretty progressive though, especially in terms of men's rights and fathers' rights, so I'm not sure it comes from men who feel their masculinity is threatened, but I see what you are saying. Either way, if circumcised men are happy that way, fine by me - that's all that matters, really.

The kind of sexism I've seen directed towards men most oftencome from men themselves - undermining other men who choose to stay at home to look after their kids, pigeonholing them under greek alphabet letters (alpha / beta / whatever), deifying sportsmen, ridiculing the idea of 'toxic masculinity', etc. I'm sure there are some misandrists (I don't know any in real life, though) but I've definitely seen more locker room bravado and generally men humiliating other men.

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, Emilie Jolie said:

The kind of sexism I've seen directed towards men most oftencome from men themselves - undermining other men who choose to stay at home to look after their kids, pigeonholing them under greek alphabet letters (alpha / beta / whatever), deifying sportsmen, ridiculing the idea of 'toxic masculinity', etc. I'm sure there are some misandrists (I don't know any in real life, though) but I've definitely seen more locker room bravado and generally men humiliating other men.

And that is why men who btw mostly still hold all the levers of power in this world, are not rushing to help abused men, sick men, SAHMen, suicidal men, homeless men or any other category of "put upon" or "weak" men. 
It is a dog eat dog world and  "real" men are not built to help men who they perceive to be "weak losers".
When men show true weakness other "real" men show disgust...
Male society reveres strength in men, it doesn't want to admit to male weakness. 

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by elaine567

[basil67]

2 hours ago, enigma32 said:

Me, I am gonna wait for feminists to take care of it since they say they are fighting for equality and all. I assume all this stuff is on their agenda, right? 😉

Enigma, you've never seemed to be the kind of guy who want others to fight your fights for you

[Ellener]

Goodness we've all taken to writing about crazy sh*t these days!

What I don't understand is why people don't speak out at the time, I mean there is no way I would ever under any circumstances genitally surgically alter a child for any reasons. That's their own decisions to make later.

Sexism against men, yes of course it's a thing. Women manipulate men too, and harm others, I used to say women do more damage with their endless back-stabbing and gossip than men with guns.

It all boils down to the same basic insecurities and resentments. I don't know how we fix that.

 

[Amethyst68]

With regards to the cancer issue I think it's all got to do with publicity. Women have got over the whole secrecy thing that used to be attached to it and now talk freely about cancers attached to 'women's' issues. They've made fund raising fun and high profile, at least where I live.

Men are just catching up on that area here, well known faces are beginning to share their experiences with regards to testicular, prostate cancers etc. Instructions on self examination are now given on television. Fundraising is also becoming more high profile, similar to the breast cancer 'pink' campaign. 

It takes time and people willing to speak out to change things but they are changing.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Amethyst68

[Ellener]

2 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

The kind of sexism I've seen directed towards men most oftencome from men themselves - undermining other men who choose to stay at home to look after their kids, pigeonholing them under greek alphabet letters (alpha / beta / whatever), deifying sportsmen, ridiculing the idea of 'toxic masculinity', etc. I'm sure there are some misandrists (I don't know any in real life, though) but I've definitely seen more locker room bravado and generally men humiliating other men.

my husband helped me put together some of the best things in my life, it was poetry and music and social work projects. But he never really got why I was doing those things.

It was just an intellectual challenge to him.

When we had a child together I got a back sciatica problem with a newborn, his answer was to drag a mattress downstairs and put the baby changing bag within reach.

So he could leave for work.

It took me years to understand he was doing the best he could, and that was my last conversation with my own dad, a few days before he died we had a phone conversation, I love you I love you I love you.

What more could he have said?

People do the best they can.

[Prudence V]

4 hours ago, enigma32 said:

I assume all this stuff is on their agenda, right? 😉

It might surprise you to know it is. Patriarchy is bad for everyone. 

[Weezy1973]

Does sexism against men exist? So if you’re defining sexism as the belief that one sex is superior than the other, I’d say in general it doesn’t exist. 
 

That doesn’t mean there aren’t some man hating women. Or that prejudice doesn’t exist. Or that men don’t have some problems on average that women don’t. 
 

And as far as male circumcision goes, women seem to care about it way more than men do. I’ve never met a guy who cares. We didn’t circumcise our son mostly because it would’ve been a hassle and an extra appointment. It wasn’t a big deal. 

[Prudence V]

15 hours ago, pepperbird said:

The idea of a man being raped still gets snickers from many

The overwhelming majority of male rapes are committed by other men, not by women. And yes, services for this are lacking, since in many places rape services were set up by women for other women, who are the overwhelming majority of who gets raped  - and men were seen to be triggering within these spaces. There are some mixed-sex and some men-specific services which exist now, but probably not enough. Certainly 10 years ago when a dear friend was gang raped, he found nowhere equipped to provide him with the support and counselling he needed. He still has PTSD as a result. 
 

His fiancée at the time dumped him, but the worst response he got was from other men who assumed he “must be gay” to have been raped (by men), and who subjected him to homophobic abuse as a result. (He’s not gay, but even if he was, that’s just appalling.)

 

 

 

[basil67]

11 hours ago, thefooloftheyear said:

Meh...  I like my chances in a rape situation...😆

The biggest issue I see right now is the constant and never ending characterizing of men in sit coms and commercials as absolute bumbling and fumbling morons incapable of doing anything without the assistance of a woman....It's kinda stupid and not really representative of actual real life...are there some morons?  Absolutely, but it doesnt have to be all of them...as it is seemingly in all of these cases...If the genders were reversed here it would be so grave there would be congressional hearings and protests/riots over it....😆

TFY

I strongly agree with you.   I'm also one of those people who others aim their barbs at when they say "people have no sense of humour anymore".    But times change and comedy changes with it.  The fact that comedy has moved on for many doesn't mean that humour has disappeared.   Give me a good stand up comedian who can laugh at themselves and I'll be in stitches.  Hannah Gadsby's story about the box in her show Douglas (Netflix in Aus)  had me in stitches.  

[elaine567]

11 hours ago, thefooloftheyear said:

The biggest issue I see right now is the constant and never ending characterizing of men in sit coms and commercials as absolute bumbling and fumbling morons incapable of doing anything without the assistance of a woman..

OK, but women have  had to put up with that nonsense since time immemorial. I remember as a kid being annoyed when it was always the "expert" man and the woman was the "student" requiring teaching, asking the questions and being in awe of the clever man, or she was portrayed as some idiotic bimbo like creation...
Blonde women usually had it worse as regards perceived lack of IQ, and being cast as sexual objects, but brunettes were often characterised as the evil ones...
Women are seen more in the media, but I still see them asking questions of the "clever" man so maybe not much has really changed...

[homecoming]

10 hours ago, basil67 said:

As someone wrote earlier, FGM is typically done in unhygenic conditions by a hack with the purpose of controlling women by removing sexual pleasure.    Where as male circumcision (while I don't agree with it) doesn't remove a man's ability to have and enjoy sex.   It actually seems to be the one thing which the US and Arabic countries have in common.   There also seems to be plenty of men who want their son to look like daddy.   For circumcision to change in the US, men need to start changing their attitudes.   

Female teacher and male student depends on the ages.  I've known men who, when younger, high-fived their 17yo mate for bagging the hot 23yo teacher.   While men do this, the issue remains one which nobody will take seriously.   Contrast that with a 14yo boy and she'll be going to jail no matter what.  I don't know anyone who would take the latter lightly.

Support for physical and mentally abused men?  They aren't asking for refuges - so why supply something which nobody asks for?    

Men's breast cancer?  There are many, many health issues across all genders and ages which get little attention.  This isn't a gender issue.   But if you want to make it one, I bet women can match men in terms of health issues which are under researched.  

Male rape?   A heap of men here were complaining about how it didn't get attention.  So I started a thread for them to talk about it.  Do you know what happened?  With the exception of one, they mocked it.  Some put on pretend girly voices and were 'there for each other'.    If this is what happens when people try to listen, why bother?

Thing is, if men aren't proactive in seeking change, nothing is going to change.  

 

That's interesting. Seems that a lot of the attitudes mentioned in the OP are being perpetuated by men themselves... hadn't noticed that. 

Like is a 16 year old boy sleeps with his older teacher, he's often praised and congratulated, and thought of as some kind of hero - by other men and boys (in his class, for example). 

Edited July 29, 2020 by homecoming

[elaine567]

8 minutes ago, homecoming said:

Like is a 16 year old boy sleeps with his older teacher, he's often praised and congratulated, and thought of as some kind of hero - by other men and boys (in his class

OK, but in this imagined scenario, the female teacher is always hot and young, I guess if she was perceived to be repulsive, there would be less back slapping and more furore.
 

[homecoming]

15 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

OK, but in this imagined scenario, the female teacher is always hot and young, I guess if she was perceived to be repulsive, there would be less back slapping and more furore.
 

Sounds as if it circles back to sexism against women - as in if she’s hot “well done”, if she’s ‘ugly’ “it’s all her fault”. It should be her fault regardless, not based on what she looks like. It’s never OK for anyone of authority to abuse their position of power, though. 

Edited July 29, 2020 by homecoming

[thefooloftheyear]

29 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

OK, but women have  had to put up with that nonsense since time immemorial. I remember as a kid being annoyed when it was always the "expert" man and the woman was the "student" requiring teaching, asking the questions and being in awe of the clever man, or she was portrayed as some idiotic bimbo like creation...
Blonde women usually had it worse as regards perceived lack of IQ, and being cast as sexual objects, but brunettes were often characterised as the evil ones...
Women are seen more in the media, but I still see them asking questions of the "clever" man so maybe not much has really changed...

Maybe it's a US thing?

I don't ever remember a time, nor a TV show(or a TV commercial), where men(in a couple's perspective) are portrayed as the "know it all's" and the women blithering and fumbling dopes....And I am probably older than you are...Never...I can't think of one...

Many TV shows follow the same script as "The King of Queens"...She is so pretty, smart and well put together, , and he is the lumbering, fat dope laying on the couch that can't get out of his own way without Ms Perfect to save his ass....It's a stupid genre and just not representative....I know plenty of couples where the woman is not the one that is the smartest or most put together in the room.......

TFY

 

[deepthinking]

Medical breakthroughs meant us women ended up living beyond our  menopause, okay, but I want to see a breakthrough that stops men dying earlier than women. Have we all got a deal yet?  I emphatically support the Men's Rights movement, same as some men support feminism {which is of no interest to me}.

Edited July 29, 2020 by deepthinking

[deepthinking]

26 minutes ago, deepthinking said:

Medical breakthroughs meant us women ended up living beyond our  menopause, okay, but I want to see a breakthrough that stops men dying earlier than women. Have we all got a deal yet?  I emphatically support the Men's Rights movement, same as some men support 3rd wave  feminism {which is of no interest to me}.

 

[pepperbird]

17 hours ago, homecoming said:

There are some negative attitudes towards men, but these appear to be dying out, IMO. On social media, for example, the rise of the movement against toxic masculinity, encouraging men to be open about their mental health, etc. There are many organisations I can think of that offer support to male victims of DA, sexual abuse, poor mental health, etc. 

With the FGM issue, I would suggest it is because Female Genital Mutilation is often performed on older toddlers/girls/women, in typically unsanitary conditions, as a method of preserving the vagina for the future husband. With it comes a whole range of health problems, such as infertility, death, blood poisoning, etc. It's not performed for any reason relating to the girl/woman, and is a barbaric sexist practice. That's why it receives so much attention, and circumcision does not - although circumcisions do go wrong, occasionally, the risk isn't quite as great. 

For the points in bold, do you have any experiences of the attitudes you've mentioned? Or stats? Personally, I agree with what you've said, those attitudes do exist but are on the decline very rapidly.

Male circumcision is really no different than female. I'm not saying that because of the individual's age or the conditions where it's done, it's because it's being done without their consent.

[pepperbird]

15 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

 

Men have been socially conditioned to breed (males, preferably), marry (attractive and fertile, preferably), provide and protect.

They are forced to be fathers of (or at least provide for) kids they might not want, they don't always have a say in abortions of babies they might want, they are judged on their height or their sporting ability (or lack thereof), SAHF are still looked down on in some conservative communities, they too are affected by arranged marriages, etc.

As for circumcision, I feel like it should be an individual decision upon adulthood rather than imposed by parents because of cultural or religious customs, though I would take my cue from Jewish men / Muslim men / African tribal groups or whoever is directly affected by it. I've seen antisemitic or Islamophobic people use that as an excuse to air their prejudiced views and I'd be wary of overstepping.

I know it's already been banned in Iceland, and a few Nordic countries have recognised it as genital mutilation. 

Male breast cancer is not sexism, I don't think - research is lagging on a lot of other stuff too (like endometriosis), so I don't think it's a gender thing.

I don't give a flying fig about someone's religious leanings. It's not a valid justification for  allowing/ restricting other "medical" procedures, so why should it be for this one?

 

[pepperbird]

12 hours ago, basil67 said:

Thinking further on refuges.   Women's refuges aren't for fleeing a man who was verbally or emotionally abusive.  They are for women who are running for their lives.    Yes, there are certainly men who leave a verbally or emotionally abusive woman.....but how many men are frightened that she'll get murdery?

you;d be surprised.
 contact a domestic violence shelter in your area. ask about the programming they have for men. The only government funding we could ever get was from programs specifically for women. The entire language surrounding it was all geared towards women.

 

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, thefooloftheyear said:

Maybe it's a US thing?

I don't ever remember a time, nor a TV show(or a TV commercial), where men(in a couple's perspective) are portrayed as the "know it all's" and the women blithering and fumbling dopes....And I am probably older than you are...Never...I can't think of one...

Many TV shows follow the same script as "The King of Queens"...She is so pretty, smart and well put together, , and he is the lumbering, fat dope laying on the couch that can't get out of his own way without Ms Perfect to save his ass....It's a stupid genre and just not representative....I know plenty of couples where the woman is not the one that is the smartest or most put together in the room.......

TFY

 

Well that's just tv.

Television is not real life.

[pepperbird]

2 hours ago, Prudence V said:

The overwhelming majority of male rapes are committed by other men, not by women. And yes, services for this are lacking, since in many places rape services were set up by women for other women, who are the overwhelming majority of who gets raped  - and men were seen to be triggering within these spaces. There are some mixed-sex and some men-specific services which exist now, but probably not enough. Certainly 10 years ago when a dear friend was gang raped, he found nowhere equipped to provide him with the support and counselling he needed. He still has PTSD as a result. 
 

His fiancée at the time dumped him, but the worst response he got was from other men who assumed he “must be gay” to have been raped (by men), and who subjected him to homophobic abuse as a result. (He’s not gay, but even if he was, that’s just appalling.)

 

 

 

and what sort of community support existed for him? 
 

 

[thefooloftheyear]

15 minutes ago, Ellener said:

Well that's just tv.

Television is not real life.

I dunno....

You can't see the "Dukes of Hazzard" show anymore.....They pulled the plug on that because of the Confederate flag on the roof of the Charger....

Yep...."just TV"...not real life....🙄

TFY