why avoid marriage

[Ruby Slippers]

3 hours ago, rjc149 said:

In the US, marriage and divorce both work primarily in the woman's interest (hence why both are more desirable to women). 

I agree with you that women generally fare better in divorce, but that's changing as women's earning power rises. Any woman who married and divorced a lower-earning man can tell you how that went. Stats show that men are happier married overall, less happy single at pretty much every age, suggesting marriage as it currently stands tends to satisfy men's needs more than women's.

Also, consider that women have one thing men don't have: the ability to bear children. If a man wanted his own biological child without a wife/gf, he'd be looking at hefty expenses for a surrogate mother plus child rearing, housekeeping, etc. Adoption is cheaper.

[basil67]

6 hours ago, GeorgiaPeach1 said:

I'm not saying one is better than the other per say, but let's call it what it is. There is no such thing as "considering" yourself married. Either you are or you aren't. Either a woman is pregnant, or she isn't. Either someone is a doctor, or they aren't. 

We are defacto married.  He his my partner in every sense of the word and our relationship has legal recognition.   This is a long way from "shacking up" as you disrespectfully described it.  

 

[basil67]

On 8/14/2020 at 4:24 AM, Ruby Slippers said:

Yes - in marriage you figuratively sacrifice your individual self in service to the fully bonded union. In other words, the needs of the relationship trump your own personal needs. Two become one. I guess most marriages fail because most people don't get this and don't live up to it. 

We try as hard as we can to both meet our personal needs and the needs of the marriage.   If one's needs are seen as reasonable by the partner (as ours are), it can be done.   It's only when one's needs are seen as being completely unreasonable by their partner do problems arise.  

[5x5]

8 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

The stats about divorce are misleading. There are a handful of factors that are strong predictors of a lasting marriage, based on large-scale studies. A couple's likelihood of divorce drops more and more with each of these factors:

• Both graduated from college
• Couple doesn't live together prior to marriage
• Couple doesn't have kids prior to marriage
• Couple has an agreed value system and attends religious/spiritual services together
• Household income over $50K a year
• Both your parents stayed married

I had the following and quickly got divorced after two years:

• Both graduated from college - Nope!
• Couple doesn't live together prior to marriage - Yep!
• Couple doesn't have kids prior to marriage - Yep!
• Couple has an agreed value system and attends religious/spiritual services together - Yep!
• Household income over $50K a year - Nope! It was 1990/91 and I was young and the sole earner.
• Both your parents stayed married - Yep!

So 4 out of 6.

...

While I have the following and I'm still happily married after 21 years.

• Both graduated from college - Nope! Although she has various Diplomas a BASc degree and plenty of other tertiary qualifications as well.
• Couple doesn't live together prior to marriage - Nope! We lived together for 2 and a bit years before we got married.
• Couple doesn't have kids prior to marriage - Yep! Not as a couple, although I had a child through my previous marriage.
• Couple has an agreed value system and attends religious/spiritual services together - Nope! We're both atheists, so we don't attend god nonsense services, although we share values.
• Household income over $50K a year - Yep! Much more than that.
• Both your parents stayed married - Yep!

So 3 out of 6

[5x5]

On 8/14/2020 at 4:24 AM, Ruby Slippers said:

Yes - in marriage you figuratively sacrifice your individual self in service to the fully bonded union. In other words, the needs of the relationship trump your own personal needs. Two become one. I guess most marriages fail because most people don't get this and don't live up to it. 

My wife and I happily maintain ourselves as individuals with our own autonomy, and don't sacrifice our individual selves in service to our marriage either. Likewise we have certainly not become one, nor do we wish to (in part because the idea of becoming one is pretty ridiculous).

Of which through being together for over 24 years so far, we're happy with the way we do it since it works well for us.

[FMW]

19 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

There are a handful of factors that are strong predictors of a lasting marriage

Those strong predictors don't always pan out of course.  My ex husband and I met every one of them.

[Fletch Lives]

Generally, women are more interested in marriage.

Men tend to just want things to stay the same in a relationship, and are not as crazy about marriage.

I think the guys should go ahead and get married if the woman wants it. This solves the whole problem, lol

[Veronica73]

On 8/13/2020 at 10:40 AM, GeorgiaPeach1 said:

Sounds like things were good at one point. What happened? Just wondering how things end up going from great to time to divorce in marriages.

Well, it was a lot of things. But to make a long, detailed story short and general...

We had one problem that continually kept coming up. I wanted us to go to counseling. He refused, said he would never go no matter what. We had another fight about the same thing, he again refused to go to counseling, I said I was leaving, he threatened me and scared me. He went on a business trip. I moved out and filed for divorce. After he got the divorce papers he offered to go to counseling, and we did go for a couple sessions. But I was sooooo mad by that time. It seemed like too little too late. So I went ahead with the divorce. Looking back I kind of wish I stalled on the divorce a little longer. I may have cooled down and we may have been able to work things out. We are friends now and still love each other. He is still my emergency contact.

20 hours ago, rjc149 said:

Yes, American stats and probably similar in other Western English-speaking societies (UK/Canada/Australia). In the US, marriage and divorce both work primarily in the woman's interest (hence why both are more desirable to women). 

And here we go again. Needlessly introducing a gender war.

[Ruby Slippers]

3 hours ago, FMW said:

Those strong predictors don't always pan out of course.  My ex husband and I met every one of them.

Sure, predictors are not guarantees. 

[Woggle]

3 hours ago, Fletch Lives said:

Generally, women are more interested in marriage.

Men tend to just want things to stay the same in a relationship, and are not as crazy about marriage.

I think the guys should go ahead and get married if the woman wants it. This solves the whole problem, lol

This is very much a generalization and I know not all women are like this but many women seem to have a problem with being content and settled. If a man is happy without the ring and just being a couple then she wants marriage and that piece of paper. If a man is happy in his marriage and thinks that they have a good life then she starts getting restless, questions and the marriage and it eventually leads to divorce. I think that most men just want peace in their relationships whatever that peace might be.

[rjc149]

4 hours ago, Veronica73 said:

And here we go again. Needlessly introducing a gender war.

It's neither needless, an introduction (as per the subject of this thread) nor a war. Marriage primarily caters to female reproductive strategy -- nesting and child-rearing. Women are typically under more pressure from peers and society to marry. The wedding industry is a female-driven institution. The majority of divorces in the US are initiated by the woman and are usually ruled in the woman's benefit financially. It's something men need to be mindful of when considering marriage. I'm sorry your marriage failed, but your story is by no means uncommon. 

[Ruby Slippers]

32 minutes ago, rjc149 said:

Marriage primarily caters to female reproductive strategy -- nesting and child-rearing.

Marriage caters to both for reproductive purposes. A man has the best chances of raising intelligent, competent, stable sons and daughters who will lovingly embrace him in his golden years when they're reared in the framework of a loving, stable marriage with a high-quality woman. Sure, he can spread his seed far and wide if he sleeps around, but spawning a bunch of fatherless children all over the place does not yield quality. Quite the contrary. It could be argued that broken families are the root of most of society's problems.

[eleanorrigby]

On 8/10/2020 at 9:53 AM, deepthinking said:

I see people who live together and are happy, but don't they secretly want to get engaged and have special rings and ultimately a ceremony and  party? 

I can almost hear the defensive fury, but meh, if you cam explain why people avoid marriage, I would be grateful.

We were married so young, we didn't have the money for any of those things and our families were not interested in helping us have any of that (probably because we were so young, 21)

I very much regretted missing out on  the ring, wedding dress, party etc  back then . Parties are a blast and there are few occasions in life that are a good enough excuse to get dressed up like a princess. 

A friend of mine told me about her engagement when she was in her 20's. They got within a week or so of the wedding and she said she realized she was more excited about the party,  dress and getting drunk with her friends at the open bar they had reserved, than she was about actually being married, so she called off the wedding and I believe they are still friends.

A cousin of mine had a rockabilly ceremony with bridesmaids grooms, etc after living together many years,  but didn't get married on paper. They just wanted the party.

29 years later, I still wish I had wedding pictures to look at but on the other hand, I'm sometimes glad we didn't spend a ton of money on "just a party", but on the other, other hand I wish I'd had that party. 

Suffice it to say, after this many years, kids etc I'd feel and consider myself married whether I had a marriage license or not and my advice is if you want a party, have one whether you make it legal or not. Life is too short to pass up on one of the 5 or 6 occasions to have a knock down, drag out shindig. Make those memories.

 

[Woggle]

You can always renew your vows and have the big wedding. We renewed our vows in Bermuda on our ten year anniversary. 

[basil67]

I'm unsure why some are arguing to the positives of marriage when the post is asking the simple question of 'why' to the people who choose to not marry.   

Edited August 15, 2020 by basil67

[5x5]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

I'm unsure why some are arguing to the positives of marriage when the post is asking the simple question of 'why' to the people who choose to not marry.   

Yep, despite being married, my wife and I think not being married is cool.

Of which our grand reason for getting married is only because my now wife asked, so that she could stop hiding the fact she was already living with me, to her very conservative Catholic Sicilian family.

Edited August 16, 2020 by 5x5

[basil67]

And likewise, I'd do it if our state laws didn't give us the same recognition as a could who are formally married.

[5x5]

On 8/11/2020 at 2:53 AM, deepthinking said:

I see people who live together and are happy, but don't they secretly want to get engaged and have special rings and ultimately a ceremony and  party? 

I can almost hear the defensive fury, but meh, if you cam explain why people avoid marriage, I would be grateful.

I don't know why they would secretly want to be married.

I only got married in the first instance because I erroneously thought, that it was what you were supposed to do if you got her pregnant.

Post divorce I realised you can stay together, without being married with or without child and it wasn't a big deal. Plus if you got her pregnant, you didn't even have to stay together and abortion is okay as well.

In my second instance of being married (my wife's first instance), it was only to take the pressure off my sexual partner who I lived with for a couple of years. Since she was constantly lying to her conservative Catholic Sicilian family, about that fact she was shacked up with me, to avoid the fallout from such a revelation. How is that for romantic?

Engagement... meh.

On rings, I've worn my wedding ring on perhaps 5-8 occasions for at most an hour or three ever since we got married 21+ years ago. While my wife seldom ever wears her wedding ring as well. In fact since neither of us wear our wedding rings except on rare occasions, there are some people who don't know we are married.

Sure we had a ceremony in a church, although that was just part of the show for her family. Likewise I certainly don't remember our vows and given that we are both atheists, the church stuff didn't matter to us. So again it was a show.

As to the party after our wedding, we weren't happy about part of it, since my wife's bridesmaid let slip how we were living together. Fortunately since her speech was so tedious, boring and incredibly long (yawn), except for my wife and I no one was listening when she mentioned it.

That said we did go on a nice holiday together,  to a tropical island just after we got married. Yet we already did that kind of thing together before we were married.

The way my wife and I do our marriage, is no different than how we did just living together.

So we have our own autonomy, we are free to do what we like as we like and do exactly that, plus as always we share lots of frequent sex together, while we still date each other and have fun when we hang out together.

Although I do enjoy being married to my wife, I don't see being married as something that is any better than just being together.

Edited August 16, 2020 by 5x5

[gaius]

On 8/14/2020 at 12:59 AM, basil67 said:

@gaius 

Edit to add: would you ask this question of a couple who got officially married?    Because they too can coast along together just being comfortable....or barely civil.

Probably not. Simply because even though people get married for different reasons and yes, don't always put in a lot of effort, the act of getting married itself kind of infers it. With rare exception.

I couldn't recall having seen you talk about your guy in a way like Woggle talks about his wife. Which is why I asked. 30 years is a rare accomplishment nowadays and it's interesting to learn what the dynamic is that led to that kind of success.

[basil67]

@gaius  I already feel like I talk far too much about my family, so I deliberately try to tone it down.    I figure most are here to talk about their own issues, not listen to me blather on about my happy life and love.    In real life, hubby and I get compliments from our friends (and have even had them from strangers in restaurants) about how we present as such a unified couple and that they look up to what we have.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2020 by basil67

[gaius]

LS doesn't have to be one flavor @basil67. Sour and bitter. Talk away.

I tend to crowbar references to my wife and our relationship into a lot of posts. Performed a few miracles finding a way to work her in while still remaining on topic. It's usually when I'm stuck working long hours, am feeling amorous toward her and can't do anything about it. I'm sure some people skip over it but who cares. It's what I feel and who I genuinely am.

On a marriage side note, I forgot my wedding ring going to work for the first time since we got married the other week and it really bothered me not having it on. I just can't relate to a guy who doesn't want to wear one. Everyone has their own thing though I guess. 

[bangiphone]

On 8/10/2020 at 9:53 PM, deepthinking said:

I see people who live together and are happy, but don't they secretly want to get engaged and have special rings and ultimately a ceremony and  party? 

I can almost hear the defensive fury, but meh, if you cam explain why people avoid marriage, I would be grateful.

they maybe fearful of society. 

[basil67]

1 hour ago, gaius said:

LS doesn't have to be one flavor @basil67. Sour and bitter. Talk away.

I tend to crowbar references to my wife and our relationship into a lot of posts. Performed a few miracles finding a way to work her in while still remaining on topic. It's usually when I'm stuck working long hours, am feeling amorous toward her and can't do anything about it. I'm sure some people skip over it but who cares. It's what I feel and who I genuinely am.

On a marriage side note, I forgot my wedding ring going to work for the first time since we got married the other week and it really bothered me not having it on. I just can't relate to a guy who doesn't want to wear one. Everyone has their own thing though I guess. 

My folks got married in '64 and dad lost his ring in the surf on his honeymoon.  He never replaced it...but he was also an electrician so probably couldn't wear it on the job anyway.  They are still happy together.  

My marriage is in the words I write.  When I give advice about how to communicate, I'm writing about what we do because it works for us.  Do you know that in 30 years, he's never raised his voice at me, and I've only done it to him once (and yes, he deserved it).    When I give advice on what should be dealbreakers - these are things which would never happen in our marriage and which would be deal breakers for either of us.   When I talk about how early sex doesn't won't send a guy running if he really likes you - that's us too.    I talk about us all the time, but you need to read between the lines.  

[Prudence V]

On 8/10/2020 at 9:53 AM, deepthinking said:

I can almost hear the defensive fury, but meh, if you cam explain why people avoid marriage, I would be grateful.

I never wanted to get married. It seemed to me to be a stupid arrangement, only in a man’s interest (having someone to cook and clean and bear and raise his spawn) and it just didn’t appeal. Then when I was young and foolish I did it. I quickly saw sense and hightailed it out of there, and swore off repeating the mistake. 
 

Then, decades later, I fell in love with a Brit. [redacted] the only way we could be together legally was to get married, so we did. If we hadn’t needed to, we wouldn’t have. We’ve been together for almost two decades, and we choose to be together every day. Having the State involved isn’t what we would have chosen, but that’s how thing work on this island. 

Edited August 21, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[CaliforniaGirl]

On 8/11/2020 at 12:53 AM, basil67 said:

Yep, there are plenty of miserable marriages of couples who are my parent's age.....the last generation before divorce became socially acceptable.    The "waiting till the children have finished school" was a running joke amongst much of my generation when referring to their parent's marriage.

Mine too. Here in the U.S.