Derren Brown: the Push - are we all really just sheeple?

[HadMeOverABarrel]

I just watched Derren Brown: The Push on Netflix. If you haven't seen it, it's pretty much a social experiment in compliance. I'm so interested in other's thoughts on this topic. Clearly our elected officials are able to get away with unscrupulous things because we elected them and put them in a position to do so...but did we really just fall prey to great rhetoric and in love with the ideals they were selling? How much of our own beliefs about power and society are influenced by those persons closest to us? and by the educational/religious institutions we attend? Who's shaping who? In the western world, we think, we the populous, have influence over those who govern us...but is that true?  Those in power have historically controlled the messages we receive, whether through media outlets, propaganda, history books, etc. This docufilm demonstrates a truth about society and the unconscious beliefs we all hold that shape our behaviors, even when those same behaviors contradict our morals and values. 

Influence is a powerful thing. What propels a person into such authority, such an influential position? There are many case studies throughout history and in our own present time.

Another intriguing point is how easily influenced people from western cultures are, which are dominated by an individualistic mindset. Contrast that against eastern cultures, which are more typically collectivist mindsets where compliance is overtly enforced. 

In the West, we think we are so free and influential, but are we really just dominated by societal powers in a more covert fashion?

[schlumpy]

I think many people who find themselves thrust into a position of power and influence are riding the back of the tiger. They are afraid to get off because they will be eaten.

[Weezy1973]

3 hours ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

In the West, we think we are so free and influential, but are we really just dominated by societal powers in a more covert fashion?

Absolutely. Free will doesn’t exist. All of our beliefs are determined by a combo of things we have no control over. Our genetics. Our upbringing. Where we happen to be born. 
 

I’d say the most insidious power is actually that held by corporations. Government isn’t exactly innocent, but at least with government there is some power to vote, to protest, to lobby, even to run for office if one is so inclined. 
 

But one of my favorite stats is on religion. What’s the greatest predictor of a persons religion, which tends to be a dominant portion of their worldview. It’s the religion of their parents. Not free will / thought at all. Just following the beliefs of the people with the most power. Same is true for left / right political leanings.

[elaine567]

"Whatever it takes"
The three word slogan.
Now so beloved by our UK PM and his team...
Amazing to think we can all be kind of controlled by so little.

[basil67]

7 hours ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

Another intriguing point is how easily influenced people from western cultures are, which are dominated by an individualistic mindset. Contrast that against eastern cultures, which are more typically collectivist mindsets where compliance is overtly enforced. 

I disagree.   Go to Japan and you'll find that people behave as they do because they have a culture of caring for others.   The have a long history of not littering.  Of wearing masks when they are ill, of being polite.    Caring about the amenity of others isn't enforced, it's cultural.

[schlumpy]

Although there are thousands of strategies that people can attempt to live their lives by, only a few of those strategies will be successful given the individuals temperament and culture.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

9 hours ago, schlumpy said:

I think many people who find themselves thrust into a position of power and influence are riding the back of the tiger. They are afraid to get off because they will be eaten.

Really good and interestimg analogy!

[HadMeOverABarrel]

7 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

 I’d say the most insidious power is actually that held by corporations. Government isn’t exactly innocent, but at least with government there is some power to vote, to protest, to lobby, even to run for office if one is so inclined. 

I agree with this and think it's cause for concern, especially corporations and industries (e.g. banks, insurance co's) with deep pockets that exert significant influence over legislators who then pass legislation not necessarily always in the best interest of the people. 

6 hours ago, elaine567 said:

"Whatever it takes"
The three word slogan.
Now so beloved by our UK PM and his team...
Amazing to think we can all be kind of controlled by so little.

Such a clever observation! Hmm now I'm wondering if PM picked it up from the same source as Derren Brown. I wonder if that phrase is in a book...perhaps one written by Robert B Cialdini, PhD?? or someone similar?

5 hours ago, major_merrick said:

Yeah most people are sheep.  Just read the threads about masks and you'll understand how easy control has become...

Re: masks...I was thinking about this recently. I am rather conscientious about wearing it in public indoors spaces. Does that make me compliant? I don't want to get the virus. However, if we had to start turning in our guns or gold in America, I just wouldn't do it. I'd fight that as best I could. I'm already suspicious about the 'coin shortage!'

3 hours ago, basil67 said:

I disagree.   Go to Japan and you'll find that people behave as they do because they have a culture of caring for others.   The have a long history of not littering.  Of wearing masks when they are ill, of being polite.    Caring about the amenity of others isn't enforced, it's cultural.

I feel like Japan has quite a bit of western influence due to many decades of trading with western trade partners.

I spent some time in China teaching English and was struck by how my adult students' collectivist mindsets starkly contrasted my own American culture. One of the class lessons highlighted these contrasts. For the lesson, I tried to think of someone from our society who stands out from the moderate norms. I picked Lady Gaga as an example of individual self-expression. My students' reactions and descriptions were interesting to say the least. I felt they expressed modest disdain for such individualistic expression. It is certainly cultural, but that culture evolved over centuries of being led in a collectivist society...or perhaps even just since Chairman Mao with the rise of communism. ?? 

What I meant by overt is how the values are skewed towards collectivism/away from individual expression/ingenuity, and the attitude towards individual human rights is greatly contrasted against western cultures. In China, emphasis was placed on self-sacrifice for the good of the group (collectivism); individual rights are not valued as highly as the good of the whole group.

Actually, given your example, I can see parallels with Japan (being very considerate of others tends towards self-deprivation in favor of group success, also collectivist).

Edited August 17, 2020 by HadMeOverABarrel
Typos

[pepperbird2]

Lately a lot of people just sort of go along with whatever happens to be trendy, be it clothing, music or a social movement. They don't seem to have much of an attention span.

A lot also blindly follow. This is actually pretty ironic, because they have more access to information right now that at any other time. They either don;t bother to actually "look behind the curtain" or if they do, it's just cursory. e.g.- they look it up on Snopes (or whatever) and blindly accept it's the truth. Science has become, in effect, almost anew religion with the same sort of blind faith.

Could be we all need to believe in something large than ourselves.

[some_username1]

14 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

Lately a lot of people just sort of go along with whatever happens to be trendy, be it clothing, music or a social movement. They don't seem to have much of an attention span.

A lot also blindly follow. This is actually pretty ironic, because they have more access to information right now that at any other time. They either don;t bother to actually "look behind the curtain" or if they do, it's just cursory. e.g.- they look it up on Snopes (or whatever) and blindly accept it's the truth. Science has become, in effect, almost anew religion with the same sort of blind faith.

Could be we all need to believe in something large than ourselves.

That’s because big business has never had it easier to tap into our dopamine receptors using our mobile phones and the end result is immaturity lasting long into later life and keeping people as idiotic as possible.

Young people and (increasingly older too) are slaves to the novelty they crave from their phone, be it a message on Tinder, a new Facebook update, or a high score on candy crush or some such nonsense. As a result we are at risk of leading more dissatisfied lives and being more dissatisfied with our partners because we crave novelty and  excitement in greater amounts because dopamine hits get progressively weaker unless we keep upping the ante. The bad news is that big tech firms have millions and million of dollars at their disposal to research how to further exploit our reward system for profit. A notable example was when they discovered how something as simple as infinite scroll through a news feed would hook people into massive screen time increases because of the stimulation endless timeline updates brought.

Basically the human brain is easily exploitable because we haven’t adapted yet to all the new ways in which it can be and the books by the likes of Cialdini and Daniel Kahneman give reliable examples of how most people can fall for really basic tricks of compliance because of the way our brains are wired. It stands to reason that this can and will (and has, Russian twitter bot farms, Dominic Cummings, etc) be manipulated by political parties to influence crucial elections.

I believe it’s a duty of sorts for everyone to research how the brain thinks and how you can potentially be manipulated. It reminds me of how computer security is a massive subject at the moment what with the petty cyber crime and industrial level cyber espionage and sabotage being conducted by the likes of Russia when human brain hacking is actually a similar issue with a similar threat level and the answer is the same as it is with computer security: do your research and learn how to protect your mind from infiltration in the same way that you would protect your computer from being hacked. When you read about how simple it is to trick the brain into compliance you really lose your faith in humanity to vote with any form of rationality and objectivity.

[major_merrick]

On 8/16/2020 at 9:04 PM, HadMeOverABarrel said:

Re: masks...I was thinking about this recently. I am rather conscientious about wearing it in public indoors spaces. Does that make me compliant? I don't want to get the virus. However, if we had to start turning in our guns or gold in America, I just wouldn't do it. I'd fight that as best I could. I'm already suspicious about the 'coin shortage!'

If you're wearing it for your own safety, do yourself a favor and get a quality mask like an N95....because the cloth ones are a joke.  If you're doing it for your own safety, then that doesn't make you compliant if you've researched the risks for yourself and made your own decision.  But if you're wearing it because other people are, or because people are being jerks about it...then you'd be compliant.  Be suspicious, look into everything for yourself.

[Prudence V]

8 hours ago, major_merrick said:

If you're doing it for your own safety, then that doesn't make you compliant if you've researched the risks for yourself and made your own decision.

Wearing a mask increases your protection slightly, but it increases the protection of others significantly. I’m not wearing a mask for me - I’m wearing it for everyone else, because I’m not a sociopath and actually care about not making other people sick - especially those who can’t wear masks. Fortunately, where I live, most people think about others rather than just about themselves, and so most people are wearing masks in public places like shops or post offices. 
 

Research is always good - provided you go for proper, expert sources and not crackpot conspiracy theories. 

[pepperbird2]

13 hours ago, major_merrick said:

If you're wearing it for your own safety, do yourself a favor and get a quality mask like an N95....because the cloth ones are a joke.  If you're doing it for your own safety, then that doesn't make you compliant if you've researched the risks for yourself and made your own decision.  But if you're wearing it because other people are, or because people are being jerks about it...then you'd be compliant.  Be suspicious, look into everything for yourself.

I find it interesting that we keep being told we MUST all wear masks to protect other people. fair enough, but without getting into a discussion on what that actually does, I find it ridiculous hat my government would go all out to tell people to wear masks, while at the same time, telling people it's fine to travel in and out of the country on planes.

Thanks to Air Canada, et. al.  there's been at least 20 flights come in over the past few days with passengers who test positive for the virus. It wasn't even for essential travel- a significant number were coming in from vacation areas. Add to this that we're not supposed to let anyone from out of the province into the "maritime bubble" , yet international students are welcome to return to university and the residences. That makes no sense. I get why they want them- these kids pay a pretty penny to attend classes here, but come on.

[pepperbird2]

5 hours ago, Prudence V said:

Wearing a mask increases your protection slightly, but it increases the protection of others significantly. I’m not wearing a mask for me - I’m wearing it for everyone else, because I’m not a sociopath and actually care about not making other people sick - especially those who can’t wear masks. Fortunately, where I live, most people think about others rather than just about themselves, and so most people are wearing masks in public places like shops or post offices. 
 

Research is always good - provided you go for proper, expert sources and not crackpot conspiracy theories. 

sociopaths?

that's a little much. what they're doing may be selfish, but really, that happens every day in one form or another. people put their needs/comfort ahead of others, and we are all guilty of that.

[Prudence V]

31 minutes ago, pepperbird2 said:

sociopaths?

that's a little much. what they're doing may be selfish, but really, that happens every day in one form or another. people put their needs/comfort ahead of others, and we are all guilty of that.

If someone thinks that their own momentary discomfort is more important than someone else’s life (or sustained disability) then yes, I consider them to be a sociopath. 

[pepperbird2]

1 hour ago, Prudence V said:

If someone thinks that their own momentary discomfort is more important than someone else’s life (or sustained disability) then yes, I consider them to be a sociopath. 

That's actually a very privileged view. You assume that anyone who can't wear one does so because of "momentary discomfort", when even those who work in the field, medical doctors no less, say there are cases where someone simply can't wear one.
I think I'll do what so many advsise-put my trust in the professionals

[Prudence V]

4 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

That's actually a very privileged view. You assume that anyone who can't wear one does so because of "momentary discomfort", when even those who work in the field, medical doctors no less, say there are cases where someone simply can't wear one.
I think I'll do what so many advsise-put my trust in the professionals

If you read what I actually wrote, you’ll see I was talking about those who can, but choose not to:

 

12 hours ago, Prudence V said:

Wearing a mask increases your protection slightly, but it increases the protection of others significantly. I’m not wearing a mask for me - I’m wearing it for everyone else, because I’m not a sociopath and actually care about not making other people sick - especially those who can’t wear masks. Fortunately, where I live, most people think about others rather than just about themselves, and so most people are wearing masks in public places like shops or post offices. 
 

Research is always good - provided you go for proper, expert sources and not crackpot conspiracy theories. 

Some people legitimately can’t wear masks. For those who can, but choose not to, it’s a selfish move - they’re actively choosing their momentary discomfort over the safety (death, disability, etc) of those who can’t. And to me, yes, that’s sociopathic. 
 

And, actually, proper professionals are on my side on this (read up if you don’t believe me). 

[Trail Blazer]

On 8/17/2020 at 4:57 AM, elaine567 said:

"Whatever it takes"
The three word slogan.
Now so beloved by our UK PM and his team...
Amazing to think we can all be kind of controlled by so little.

The man who caught Covid.  In what context was "whatever it takes" said?  

Edited September 9, 2020 by Trail Blazer

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, Trail Blazer said:

In what context was "whatever it takes" said?  

If you watch the Derren Brown video, the recurring theme that is repeated by so many that the subject interacts with, is "Whatever it takes", in an attempt to influence his thinking
Boris our PM is  a keen adherent to the power of the three word slogan.
His team came up with the highly successful "Get Brexit done", which then landed him an 80 seat majority. 

[Weezy1973]

On 8/18/2020 at 9:18 AM, pepperbird2 said:

sociopaths?

that's a little much. what they're doing may be selfish, but really, that happens every day in one form or another. people put their needs/comfort ahead of others, and we are all guilty of that.

Except of course wearing a mask is so insignificant and could save lives. Unless you genuinely don’t care about anybody else except yourself (I.e. a sociopath), then wearing a mask would be considered a tiny inconvenience that you’re more than happy to do.

[SumGuy]

On 8/16/2020 at 3:27 PM, elaine567 said:

"Whatever it takes"
The three word slogan.
Now so beloved by our UK PM and his team...
Amazing to think we can all be kind of controlled by so little.

As that the same as "the ends justify the means" ?

[SumGuy]

On 8/16/2020 at 11:22 AM, HadMeOverABarrel said:

....

In the West, we think we are so free and influential, but are we really just dominated by societal powers in a more covert fashion?

Have you read Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent"?   Or Plato's view of rhetoric?    Won't even get into the propaganda and advertising machines of the mid 20th century. 

Those in power have from the start realized that they need some consent from at least part of the masses, though they are working diligently to reduce that need.

Demagogues are not new and always a danger to a republic/democracy...the Federalist Papers address this, as they do the dangers of the executive branch (which they rightly and justly feared as putting someone in a position to set themselves up as king).  It's why our military pledges an oath to uphold the Constitution, not blindly follow the Commander in Chief.  It is why final conviction of r impeachment was put in the hands of the Senate as the men expected to fill the Senate (being so few) where expected to be men of high character that would never allow the democracy/republic to high-jacked by the executive. 

The dangers of rhetoric, and appeals to pathos (and a complete abandonment of logos) is that truth is often the enemy of pathos, and state policies built on anything but truth are houses of cards.  They look fine from the inside and can stand until some outside force pushes even slightly upon them.  Those who wrote the Constitution were well aware of this danger in republics and democracies, and the history of when the people of a city state elevated a demagogue, it's ruin soon followed. 

[HadMeOverABarrel]

@SumGuyI haven't read those but I'll put them on my reading list. Thank you for your thought provoking post. 

I feel the populous sometimes forgets the importance of the constitution, and bill of rights, and why they contain the specific language that they do...blindly trading away liberties and freedoms in the name of "safety" (paving the way to tyranny at the furthest end of that road).