Glad to see life is almost back to normal, but how?

[elaine567]

4 hours ago, clia said:

(We've been through pandemics before and that's what happened...we haven't had Governors declaring a state of emergency for months on end and trying to keep people in their homes.) 

 I think those in authority are taking it very seriously because of what happened in the 1918 pandemic.
The first wave was a flu like illness that only killed the old, the sick and the  very young. In August 1918  it appeared to have ran its course.
The second wave started  in the fall, and it killed the 20-40 age group, ie the young, the fit and the healthy... dead reportedly in 24 hours from first showing symptoms...
If this virus does the same, then  we need to be prepared, and if we all get used to being very careful and  we wear masks, and social distance, then hopefully the effects may be minimised. 

[pepperbird2]

3 hours ago, QuietRiot said:

There is a certain arrogance to this post that people in other countries shake their heads at. If you take a look at the Australia post, even though their numbers are down...they are still on curfew and on lock down and NOT scoffing at their govt for doing this. They support it and not fighting against it.

Have to look at the big picture and how other countries see the U.S. 

hmmm...

In my country, we are told to wear masks and social distance. The thing is it;s not the people who are here who are the problem, it's the people who travel and come back with it that are the issue.
Personally, I think the reaction here to the virus will kill far more than the virus will. If one counts mental hath appointment cancellations, cancelling/postponing cancer treatments and biopsies, cancelling in  person medical appointments, etc. The suicide rates have spiked due to job loses etc., and it;s also believed to be partially responsible for our first ever spree killer who shot more than 20 people.

Surely, there's way to react tot eh virus that don't require essentially hobbling a heath care system. We keep being told that the hospitals/staff need to be kept free in case there's a "second wave", which has been predicted since June, No second wave yet....

I'm not saying the virus isn't serious, just that if one ends up killing a hundred to possible save one, it doesn't make a lot of sense. The vast majority of people who catch the virus end up being just fine, bar some longer effects that show up in some people, but  that's true of many communicable diseases. I;d like to see some hard numb ers, but those are hard to come by. NO one knows when the disease even arrived. I know for sure there were cases in Toronto in January- the individuals arrievd form China where's they'd gone to visit family. They came back, went to work, rode the subways, went shopping etc.
No disease outbreak.
I don't know what to make of that, and it seems most don't know either. Some say it's due to mutation that made it more virulent.

[pepperbird2]

3 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

 I think those in authority are taking it very seriously because of what happened in the 1918 pandemic.
The first wave was a flu like illness that only killed the old, the sick and the  very young. In August 1918  it appeared to have ran its course.
The second wave started  in the fall, and it killed the 20-40 age group, ie the young, the fit and the healthy... dead reportedly in 24 hours from first showing symptoms...
If this virus does the same, then  we need to be prepared, and if we all get used to being very careful and  we wear masks, and social distance, then hopefully the effects may be minimised. 

That doesn't make a lot of sense. They are two different viruses.

[schlumpy]

If I remember correctly there is a young man buried in the ice at either the north or south pole. He died of the spanish flu. They were exhuming his body two or three years ago. Don't know what the results were. Probably in cold storage in some lab.

[elaine567]

Just now, pepperbird2 said:

That doesn't make a lot of sense. They are two different viruses.

Yes but viruses mutate and a deadlier strain is always possible...
 

[pepperbird2]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

Yes but viruses mutate and a deadlier strain is always possible...
 

again, comparing it to t he Spanish flu, which isn't even in the same family of viruses as covid 19, makes little sense. It would be like comparing it to chicken pox, viral hepatitis , polio, ebola, rabies  or HIV.

[elaine567]

Being in a different family is immaterial.

[Els]

10 hours ago, Spring1234 said:

I just don't know what happened??? If there was an outbreak at Disney or casinos or any attraction you would hear about it. I understand testing could be delayed wrong etc. But that doesn't explain not hearing about  employees getting sick. 

A significant % of cases are asymptomatic, and the younger you are, the more likely it is that you will be asymptomatic or have symptoms so mild that you wouldn't be able to distinguish it from the cold. A lot of outbreaks go virtually undetected because of this. Especially in places like Disney World where the vast majority of employees and customers are young (or at least not old).

In all honesty, for those of us who are young, adhering to social distancing and staying at home isn't really about saving ourselves. While young people can and do get very ill, the vast majority of young healthy people will recover reasonably well from it. It's about saving our parents and grandparents and immunocompromised cancer patients and all the other vulnerable people in our community. Which I honestly don't understand why some people don't care about.

[Philosopher]

Where I live, in London, things are definitely not back to normal. On the surface things are not that different. Almost everything is open, albeit with measures liked spaced out tables in restaurants, lots of gaffer tape on the floor directing people in certain directions and copious amounts of hand sanister. A lot of people also clearly are not following social distancing guidelines, though the vast majority are wearing masks indoors.

However, the city, particularly the city centre is generally very quiet compared to normal. There are very tourists, many people are reluctant to use public transport and most office workers are still working from home. Since the lockdown ended, I have not been on a tube (subway) train that has had more than half the seats occupied, usually you would be standing, even outside rush hours.

I did visit a friend this weekend living a small seaside town about 150 miles from London and there things did seem a lot more normal in terms of levels of activity. People in that place where generally where following social distancing guidance much more than in London (this town has an old demographic). 

[Mrin]

Normal all depends on where you are. I'm US based and travel a lot for work. Life in my little hometown nestled high up in the rocky mountains is pretty normal. 50% indoor seating at restaurants. Kids going back to school in person. Salons and spas open. Bars are closed but all of our bars are also restaurants. They have to stop serving at 10pm on weekdays and 11pm on weekends - so we're like a bunch of drunken brits here. Everyone wears masks everywhere. Very few new cases. 

On the other hand life in California is anything but normal. No indoor seating. Spas, gyms and salons closed. Remote schooling. Lots of new cases every day. Same goes for other sunny states. Don't even get me started on New Zealand the some cities in Australia.  Yikes!

 

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

hmmm...

In my country, we are told to wear masks and social distance.

I’m from the same country, albeit the opposite coast. In BC we never really had a lockdown per se. Restaurants and bars closed dining in areas for a couple months but most were still open for takeout. Schools and daycares also shut down temporarily or schooling from home. Most are now ready to reopen. Restaurants are open again with some restrictions. 
 

We just had a recent spike in cases due to some large house parties, but most of those have been traced effectively. Mask wearing by law isn’t required except in certain areas (ex. Public transit), although most stores are mandating it along with limiting the amount of people in their store at a time because they want to protect their employees.

 

A lot of the early panic has dissipated. Surgeries are back up and running. Canada will likely recover economically faster than the US and that upward trajectory has started already. I expect social distancing / mask wearing mandates to continue to ebb and flow with the number of cases we have. Probably won’t be back to normal until the end of 2021 (if there’s a vaccine or effective treatment sometime in the first half of 2021).

[pepperbird2]

3 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

I’m from the same country, albeit the opposite coast. In BC we never really had a lockdown per se. Restaurants and bars closed dining in areas for a couple months but most were still open for takeout. Schools and daycares also shut down temporarily or schooling from home. Most are now ready to reopen. Restaurants are open again with some restrictions. 
 

We just had a recent spike in cases due to some large house parties, but most of those have been traced effectively. Mask wearing by law isn’t required except in certain areas (ex. Public transit), although most stores are mandating it along with limiting the amount of people in their store at a time because they want to protect their employees.

 

A lot of the early panic has dissipated. Surgeries are back up and running. Canada will likely recover economically faster than the US and that upward trajectory has started already. I expect social distancing / mask wearing mandates to continue to ebb and flow with the number of cases we have. Probably won’t be back to normal until the end of 2021 (if there’s a vaccine or effective treatment sometime in the first half of 2021).

You could be right.
I found out just how much "social distancing" was really going on here. One night, it was really hot so my daughters and I went out for a walk at about midnight. We followed one of the city;s wooded trails, and noted pretty quickly how many young people were gathered along the trail, drinking and as for social distancing?

Nope.

[basil67]

4 minutes ago, pepperbird2 said:

You could be right.
I found out just how much "social distancing" was really going on here. One night, it was really hot so my daughters and I went out for a walk at about midnight. We followed one of the city;s wooded trails, and noted pretty quickly how many young people were gathered along the trail, drinking and as for social distancing?

Nope.

Young people have long had the reputation for feeling invincible.    The fact that some don't social distance doesn't mean that there's no benefit to the large majority doing the right thing.

[stillafool]

Young peoples hormones are why they refuse to social distance themselves.  They want sex.

[BaileyB]

5 hours ago, Elswyth said:

In all honesty, for those of us who are young, adhering to social distancing and staying at home isn't really about saving ourselves. While young people can and do get very ill, the vast majority of young healthy people will recover reasonably well from it. It's about saving our parents and grandparents and immunocompromised cancer patients and all the other vulnerable people in our community. Which I honestly don't understand why some people don't care about.

Agree. 

And today, the first report of a reinfection which means herd immunity may not actually come to be... for those who are hoping that this virus may just run its course. Worst case scenario, this may be around for years and years. It makes finding a vaccine more difficult as the virus mutates, although they say virus’ generally mutate to a less serious form because they don’t actually want to kill their host...

[basil67]

10 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

again, comparing it to t he Spanish flu, which isn't even in the same family of viruses as covid 19, makes little sense. It would be like comparing it to chicken pox, viral hepatitis , polio, ebola, rabies  or HIV.

Chicken pox has a vaccine and not a remotely similar death rate.    Polio has a vaccine.  Rabies comes from rabid dogs and HIV isn't airborne.   It's not like comparing to any of these.   Viral hepatitis is something which is still undergoing investigation.   I can't remember much about ebola.

Spanish Flu on the other hand is similar to COVID in that was a highly contagious, deadly virus about which nothing much was known when it came along.  So while the research is different, the lessons are the same.

Edited August 25, 2020 by basil67

[Spring1234]

18 hours ago, clia said:

At this point, you should look at the data and decide for yourself how comfortable you feel with the risk of whatever activity you are planning to do.  It's a virus -- so you can catch it if you go out, as with any other virus.  I think a lot of people out there have figured out that even if they do get it, there is a 99.X% chance they will survive, so it's a risk they are willing to take.  The younger and healthier they are, the chances get even better. This is a virus that largely targets older people (many of whom are past the age of life expectancy in this country) and people in poor health.  It's largely targeted people in close living quarters -- retirement homes, long term care facilities, prisons, households.  Of course there are outliers -- there always are -- but for the most part, if you are under age 60 and in reasonably good health, you'll be fine even if you do get it.  There are reports about longer term effects in some people, but even that we don't know yet.  (And that can even happen with the flu, and no one holes up in their house for months afraid of the flu.)  Everyone I know who has gotten it had a fairly mild case and is fine now.  But going out and doing things is a decision that is yours to make for yourself.  If you are still afraid, by all means, stay home.      

My personal opinion -- and I know it's an unpopular one around here -- is that the virus is going to run its course regardless of what we do.  (We've been through pandemics before and that's what happened...we haven't had Governors declaring a state of emergency for months on end and trying to keep people in their homes.)  We are only putting off the inevitable by trying to keep people in their homes, and I think we would be much better off dealing with things now, in summer, and when are hospitals have very few COVID patients (at least in my state, MI), rather than in the winter during flu season.  And in some states, it appears to have done just that.  AZ, FL, TX are all dropping quickly from their peak.  NY did the same.  But even countries that looked good for awhile are starting to increase again now -- Philippines, France, even Italy is starting to see some higher numbers -- so it's still transmitting.  And despite locking up their borders, New Zealand and Australia are seeing new cases.  (Personally, I'll take the situation in the USA over the "strict lockdown again and stay in your house" approach that New Zealand and Australia appear to be taking.  I just do not think that's sustainable over the long term and eventually they are going to have to face the virus unless they want to completely isolate themselves from the rest of the world.)  

My state (MI) is seeing similar numbers to yours now.  I don't really know anyone who is still strictly not going anywhere, other than one friend whose husband has underlying health issues.  I've been going out to eat 2-3 times a week since early June.  I've sat outside, inside, and at the bar, I've had waiters with masks and masks pulled down exposing their nose and/or chin.  Customers are more hit or miss with the mask requirements -- some "forget" to put it on when they go to the bathroom.   Places are taking precautions for the most part, and I don't go when it's super crowded, though.  I've gone to the grocery store at least once a week since it all started back in March -- more now -- and the grocery workers similarly have off and on mask compliance.  I've been getting together with friends regularly (mainly outdoors for grilling, or out on the boat) since the end of May.  I've gone to the hair salon.  Personally, getting out and seeing people is worth the risk of COVID to me, but your miles may vary.  I would be going nuts sheltering in after five months of it.  I don't think I'm alone.  The restaurants in my town are packed and people are out and about, living their lives.  I think most people I know have gone on at least one vacation this summer, too.  I personally think we need to bite the bullet and open everything, at least at partial capacity -- gyms, bowling alleys, movie theaters in my state are still closed after five months.     

I also agree with you on wondering about the true contagiousness of it.  I feel like there is a lot they haven't figured out yet.  It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me that more health care workers, grocery store workers, waiters/bartenders, airline staff, etc. aren't getting it.  My recent anecdotal story is that at one of the restaurants we go to, a manager started feeling symptoms on a Saturday and tested positive.  He had worked the previous five days and interacted closely with 30 other employees -- sometimes wearing masks, sometimes not, or masks pulled down.  No one else tested positive.  How can that be?  At my sister's hospital, only 4% of the staff tested positive.  How can that be -- especially given the lack of PPE back in March?  Germany is apparently doing a study right now about the transmission at indoor concerts, so those results will be interesting.         

Thank you for your reply. 

I see what you are saying that long term lockdowns aren't really the answer. 

Yes, customers are hit and miss wearing masks correctly as well as employees. 

Exactly, how can not more airline, grocery stores, salon, attraction, waiters, stores staff not be getting sick more. I only heard of one pizza place on our shore town's boardwalk that had 2 employees test positive and they hung out with so many other employees in their pizza and other business on the boardwalk and nobody else tested positive, how could this be? 

I know the virus is real and contagious, but like I said as time goes on and you see so many people out living their lives just you wonder. Maybe the virus is becoming less contagious. Even in March when masks weren't required you didn't really hear these employees getting sick either.

All these colleges here are having cases, but they never talk about anyone actually in the hospital or die or that they passed it on to a family member. There's like no follow up. Same with out sport teams, there were cases initially, they were all asymptomatic and fine, now you don't hear anything.

Life has many risks, driving, anytime you leave your house there's freak incidents. I used to hate when people said that because that stuff isn't contagious, however now I just feel we're at the point is it the same percentage of getting covid as it is getting into an accident. Then I feel it's even a smaller percentage actually getting really sick from it.

In the beginning you didn't know how contagious and serious it was, everything was so new and people were staying home. Now people have gone out all summer and have been the ginny pigs and cases haven't really spiked. 

I was home until June, then started going to the stores, lake with my cousins and aunt 's pool seeing family. 

I am going to do outdoor dining when the weather cools off, go into the city, I'm considering going to our shore town for a weeks vacation. I didn't want to be the first person to do these things, but this stuff has been opened for months.

I used to have a very active and busy life. Early March I went to a wedding indoors with hundreds of people, our City's indoor flower show with thousands of people, I flew to Detroit for a business trip, stayed in a hotel, pool, restaurant, went to a 500 person gala. The virus was circulating, however nobody really knew at that time. I was fine and so was my sister who came. I'm not saying I'll go back to all this though.

I just think at this point the risk isn't high enough to stay home. 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Spring1234

[Spring1234]

12 hours ago, Elswyth said:

A significant % of cases are asymptomatic, and the younger you are, the more likely it is that you will be asymptomatic or have symptoms so mild that you wouldn't be able to distinguish it from the cold. A lot of outbreaks go virtually undetected because of this. Especially in places like Disney World where the vast majority of employees and customers are young (or at least not old).

In all honesty, for those of us who are young, adhering to social distancing and staying at home isn't really about saving ourselves. While young people can and do get very ill, the vast majority of young healthy people will recover reasonably well from it. It's about saving our parents and grandparents and immunocompromised cancer patients and all the other vulnerable people in our community. Which I honestly don't understand why some people don't care about.

Why don't these asymptomatic carriers spread it to their parents, older relatives, compromised friends and then you hear about how they killed their parents or grandparents?? 

If you work at these places I'm sure you go out and get together with people and live with people, why no spreading?

[Spring1234]

13 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

hmmm...

In my country, we are told to wear masks and social distance. The thing is it;s not the people who are here who are the problem, it's the people who travel and come back with it that are the issue.
Personally, I think the reaction here to the virus will kill far more than the virus will. If one counts mental hath appointment cancellations, cancelling/postponing cancer treatments and biopsies, cancelling in  person medical appointments, etc. The suicide rates have spiked due to job loses etc., and it;s also believed to be partially responsible for our first ever spree killer who shot more than 20 people.

Surely, there's way to react tot eh virus that don't require essentially hobbling a heath care system. We keep being told that the hospitals/staff need to be kept free in case there's a "second wave", which has been predicted since June, No second wave yet....

I'm not saying the virus isn't serious, just that if one ends up killing a hundred to possible save one, it doesn't make a lot of sense. The vast majority of people who catch the virus end up being just fine, bar some longer effects that show up in some people, but  that's true of many communicable diseases. I;d like to see some hard numb ers, but those are hard to come by. NO one knows when the disease even arrived. I know for sure there were cases in Toronto in January- the individuals arrievd form China where's they'd gone to visit family. They came back, went to work, rode the subways, went shopping etc.
No disease outbreak.
I don't know what to make of that, and it seems most don't know either. Some say it's due to mutation that made it more virulent.

Great post 👍

Completely agree, I think people not going to doctors for check ups, mammograms, gyno, health screenings are ridiculous. Cancer can kill you too, covid isn't the only thing to worry about.

I have friends and family who canceled doc appointments but went to the hair salon 😕 makes zero sense.

I could see not going to the doctor in March and April, but by May you realized this wasn't going away so how long do these people plan to not get checkups?? 

I was hearing about this second wave and everyday you hear about a house party, people not social distancing, all our protests over George Floyd and I kept waiting for some huge outbreak, barely anything changed.

My friend went to a 300 person wedding in June indoor/outdoor event, I shamed her, my family thought she was nuts. Barely anyone wore masks, she had a great time. Nobody got sick. She got lucky and that was risky. I just feel like people are doing that so why I am so scared to go to an outdoor restaurant, beach, shopping.

 

[Wiseman2]

Doesn't feel " normal" at all. Far from it. Shopping in a surgical mask is not my idea of normal. However, it is what it is and everyone needs to take care as they see fit.😷

Edited August 25, 2020 by Wiseman2

[Spring1234]

Thank you for all your posts.

I just get confused, frustrated, annoyed when I'm sitting at home scared to go out, while everyone is out and about living their lives. Again i see it on social media, news, while I'm driving to my aunt's pool or store. 

Now that we have our Democratic and Republican conventions that's all you hear about. We don't hear from Dr. Fauci or Birx anymore. 

I just feel like a patient who had surgery and I was staying home to recuperate, but I am waiting on my doctor to release me but I haven't seen or heard from him, so I'm like at a standstill. 

I just don't think anyone knows what's going on. Testing is a mess, nobody really knows how many people are sick at home.

I am glad hospitals aren't filled up which means cases aren't that serious.

You always see groups of friends especially young people hanging out and even though they might be asymptomatic why don't you hear about them spreading it to their families??

You initially hear about things reopening and you think how will that work out, everyone thinks it's nuts then you don't hear any outbreaks.

Our shore town in New Jersey is operating as normal.

Packed, very few wearing masks, rides, water park, hotels, condos, everything opened. I couldn't believe it when they first opened, you heard nothing. I was so sure there would be an outbreak, how could there not be? Nobody wearing masks, packed beaches, boardwalk, stores, water park, hotels, this is a contagious virus after all. 😕 I never thought the summer season could happen.

The media is awful, makes you more confused. 

Just cant decide how to move forward. I sit home thinking why is it okay for everyone to be everywhere, but not me 😢

I just am scared I'll be the one to get really sick or pass it to my parents who are over 60 and I live with. 

I just think I'll go somewhere then think is it worth it? 

I wish there was more guidance. Clearly things are safe since again everywhere is packed, tons of traffic, seems like I'm the only one concerned. 

Country doesn't seem too bad considering how much more active everyone is

Next you'll hear about everyone getting together for the holidays and docs and media will say it's horrible they'll be a huge spike then you'll hear nothing, it's just getting old.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Spring1234

[Spring1234]

5 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Doesn't feel " normal" at all. Far from it. Shopping in a surgical mask is not my idea of normal. However, it is what it is and everyone needs to take care as they see fit.😷

I agree but other then a mask life seems normal. My life isn't because I'm too scared to really go anywhere. 

Also things haven't all reopened yet, like bars, indoor dining.

Once they do I'll be choosing to not go back to normal because of my fear.

Some people don't even wear masks, so they're just in stores like everything is fine.

[Philosopher]

47 minutes ago, Spring1234 said:

I wish there was more guidance. Clearly things are safe since again everywhere is packed, tons of traffic, seems like I'm the only one concerned. 

I am not sure more guidance helps. In England there is plenty of guidance and it is considerably more restrictive than the actual laws. With regards to meeting others, the guidance is that no more than 6 people outdoors or two households indoors meet. However the actual law permits gatherings of up to thirty. This has made me unsure of what I should and should not be doing in many cases. For example the meetup groups I normally go to now typically have up to 30 people, the legal maximum, but well in excess of the guidance. Therefore I never sure whether I should be going to such events.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Philosopher

[Spring1234]

4 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

I am not sure more guidance helps. In England there is plenty of guidance and it is considerably more restrictive than the actual laws. With regards to meeting others, the guidance is that no more than 6 people outdoors or two households indoors meet. However the actual law permits gatherings of up to thirty. This has made me unsure of what I should and should not be doing in many cases. For example the meetup groups I normally go to now typically have up to 30 people, the legal maximum, but well in excess of the guidance. Therefore I never sure whether I should be going to such events.

In Philadelphia, PA is 25 people indoor and like 150 outdoor, however I used to think that was too high, however now since its been happening for months I guess it's fine...Outdoor used to be higher. 

Who really knows, Governors and politicians don't care about people, doctors can't speak freely, nobody really knows. I thought so many decisions and things being reopened seemed reckless, but I guess it's fine after all.

[QuietRiot]

I got one for ya. We live in a smaller area, with a cluster of  small cities. The first small town to mandate masks came to be, because business owners were seriously concerned about people coming in and out of their small businesses in the bedroom community without masks and such.  The mandate was passed a few months ago.

Yesterday, some place (cafe of sorts) posted a picture of numerous maskless "moms celebrating their kids first day at school"...crowded in their like sardines. Never liked that place for that reason, as it's always been small dining area.

1. First day of in-person school is being celebrated (which is a ticking time bomb as well...the schools reopening)

2. Then people crowded into an area...."celebrating" the first day of school after dropping their kids off.

It does seem normal looking at the photo and why, but seriously...wow!

Edited August 25, 2020 by QuietRiot