Jacob Blake Video

[elaine567]

5 minutes ago, Piddy said:

Castile said he would not and the cop opened fire and murdered him.

The officer thought he was reaching for his gun and made a split second decision to shoot.
Not murder the officer was acquitted.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. the cop felt his life was in danger and took him out.
I wonder just how many of us in that life or death  situation would have done the same thing? I guess quite a lot. 
That is the problem.
I guess no cop really wants to be a statistic.

[Piddy]

29 minutes ago, Tamfana said:

The first time I was truly horrified was the Kinsey shooting.  (Cell phones might save the country.)  I wasn't seeing enough until cell video poured into YouTube.  

I had no idea how imbalanced police responses are when it comes to race.  I'd had a big WTH?! moment when a Harvard professor was stopped by cops trying to get into his own house but it really wasn't until Kinsey and other incidents of cops assuming black people didn't live in their houses that I joined BLM.

 Cops work for the people, all the people.  If they're  more afraid of any group and more likely to harm them, they need to be fired. 

ETA: But I don't believe they're "afraid."  I believe they're violent and intentionally kill. 

Yup.  Henry (Skip) Gates of Finding Your Roots.  It also happened back in 1990 when (NBA) Boston Celtic player Dee Brown was forced from his car at gunpoint and lie on the groud..  Been happening a long time.  Even to Celtic great Bill Russell.  

Russell, who was named the NBA’s greatest player ever and played for the Celtics for 13 years beginning in 1956, said in his autobiography that he was harassed several times by police. He chose to make his family the only black household in Reading, a suburb north of Boston.

Again, James Baldwin said the hardest thing to do is to get white people to believe what black people go thru is real.  

https://apnews.com/a34620ecfa0605c35908d7f1b858b427

Edited August 27, 2020 by Piddy

[Piddy]

22 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

The officer thought he was reaching for his gun and made a split second decision to shoot.
Not murder the officer was acquitted.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. the cop felt his life was in danger and took him out.
I wonder just how many of us in that life or death  situation would have done the same thing? I guess quite a lot. 
That is the problem.
I guess no cop really wants to be a statistic.

Not sure what your point is except to defend the cop.  The murder of Castile was caught on cell phone video by his girlfriend.  I remember the video.  I believe her over the cop.  The cop had a hair trigger IMO.  The "I felt my life was in danger" is the default get out of jail excuse for many of these cops.

How many of these recent killings by cops do you think if no video was taken would use that same excuse?  I bet dollars to donuts it would be used all the time.  The cell phone video is the great truth teller.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Piddy

[elaine567]

The cell phone video did not show the death, only the aftermath. There is no footage of the actual death of Philando Castile. 

29 minutes ago, Piddy said:

The "I felt my life was in danger" is the default get out of jail excuse for many of these cops.

But surely in many cases that is the truth. 
Guys reaching for guns or knives can kill a hesitant cop in an instant.

[Piddy]

29 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

The cell phone video did not show the death, only the aftermath. There is no footage of the actual death of Philando Castile. 

But surely in many cases that is the truth. 
Guys reaching for guns or knives can kill a hesitant cop in an instant.

Yes, his girlfriend live streamed it after he was shot.  That's why I said I believed her.  She's calm and tells what happened immediately after he was shot.   The cop sounds frantic and unnerved.  Castile did everything correctly.  He said he had a licensed firearm and was reaching for his license ect., when the cop panicked and killed him.  All over a broken tail light. 

But I digress.  The bigger point is blacks feel they are treated differently by cops and there is overwhelming evidence that this is the case.  The problem  that too many white people have is they are unwilling to believe them.  

 

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Piddy

[elaine567]

I don't think he was reaching for a gun, but the cop didn't know that, he didn't know who he was dealing with and he made a decision.
On hindsight it was the wrong one, but hindsight is always 20:20.

 

[Piddy]

47 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

I don't think he was reaching for a gun, but the cop didn't know that, he didn't know who he was dealing with and he made a decision.
On hindsight it was the wrong one, but hindsight is always 20:20.

 

Let's think about this for a second. 

He's riding with his girlfriend and her 4 year old daughter.  They're stopped for a broken tail light.  The cop asks for his license and registration.  He tells the cop he has a licensed firearm.  You with me so far? 

The cop tells him to not reach for the gun.  He doesn't, he's complying.   He reaches for his wallet and the trigger happy cop panics and shoots him. 

So let's think about this.  You really think Philando Castile is going to shoot a cop with his girlfriend and her 4 year old daughter in the car over a broken tail light?  Really?

We don't need 20/20  hindsight here.  Just some common sense and humanity.

But see.  This is what black people are trying to tell us.  But we refuse to hear them.  And that is that THEY are seen as suspects first.  And this case is a perfect example of that.  Even the Governor of Minnesota said that if Castile were white this wouldn't have happened.  And he is exactly right.

We need to stop looking for excuses for this type thing and see it for what it really is.  It's right there in front of us, but we refuse to see it.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Piddy

[elaine567]

Yes if he is just a normal guy then all that is right, but if he was a drug dealer, a guy on the run, a psychopath, a guy on a hair trigger... etc., then anything is possible. The cop didn't know who he was dealing with.
I remember listening to a guy who was an armed robber, he said he never killed anyone and had no desire to, but during a robbery if anyone got between him and freedom or stopped him from getting the money, he would have shot them dead.
Desperate people do desperate things...
Cops can not afford to give anyone any leeway.

[Piddy]

I'm a white male and have been driving for over 49 years.  And have been stopped for a broken tail light more than once.

I complied like Philando Castile did, yet I'm still alive and isn't.

The difference is I'm white and not seen as a suspect first.

I've never had a cop pull a gun on me for a traffic stop.  It's another example of white privilege.

  White people carry it with them and many are unaware that it automatically is assigned to them at birth.

  You're helping make the case why blacks are so frustrated with whites for not believing what they go thru (being seen as a suspect first).

We really need to listen more and really try to understand.

 

 

[Weezy1973]

@Piddy I wouldn’t deny that systemic racism is real, and that Black people are treated differently on average by the police. 
 

But those facts don’t also mean that fear is an extremely powerful emotion that can, and does lead to shooting first and asking questions later. The Jacob Blake video to me is an example of a police officer that is very scared, yelling at Blake to comply. Blake doesn’t and reaches for something in his car. I think fear is what motivated that cop to shoot. Not racism, in this particular case.

Of course one would need the mental capacity to treat and assess instances of police shootings separately instead of piling them all under the same racism blanket. Some I’m sure are due to racism, but some are not.

[some_username1]

On 8/26/2020 at 10:28 PM, lana-banana said:

What are these "difficult truths" you're talking about? Statistics indicate Black men are more than twice as likely to be pulled over, arrested, and convicted for the same crimes as white counterparts (this is particularly obvious with marijuana arrests). 

"Why didn't he just comply?" --- is this a joke? There is no shortage of Black men who have been filmed complying with police and been brutalized anyway. Look at Charles Kinsey.

Why is it considered acceptable to kill Black people simply for not complying with police? What, precisely, are you trying to say about "difficult truths"? 

Well what’s the answer then? Let suspects just do what they like because the police will just shoot them anyway so they might as well? 
what would you do if a suspect walked calmly away from you, disobeyed your order to stop and then put his hands inside a vehicle where you couldn’t see them? At this point it’s only natural to consider that this guy could have a weapon, which could take your life. You could die in the next 5 seconds. Are you going to wait to see what this guy does and give him the chance to open fire on you? Are you? We think it’s all so easy safe at home behind our computers, we’ve got all the answers and in our world of make believe no-one has guns or is a threat so we can invent narratives about how we would handle it so much better. I’ve got a suspicion that every one of us in this thread would not react in the stress and pressure of that moment how we like to think we would. But no-one ever tries to imagine what it would be like for the person who has to make the decision how to react when their life could be on the line, we all just kick off because in a country that proudly arms it’s civilians the public expect the Police to act like social workers.

[some_username1]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

@Piddy I wouldn’t deny that systemic racism is real, and that Black people are treated differently on average by the police. 
 

But those facts don’t also mean that fear is an extremely powerful emotion that can, and does lead to shooting first and asking questions later. The Jacob Blake video to me is an example of a police officer that is very scared, yelling at Blake to comply. Blake doesn’t and reaches for something in his car. I think fear is what motivated that cop to shoot. Not racism, in this particular case.

Of course one would need the mental capacity to treat and assess instances of police shootings separately instead of piling them all under the same racism blanket. Some I’m sure are due to racism, but some are not.

And that’s the problem. I honestly think people on both extremes enjoy these situations because it’s cathartic for them to vent their anger over injustice. There is no mental capacity used in this case. Unlike the George Floyd one which was pretty open and shut in this video we can see the Police are refraining from shooting him and giving him every chance to walk way from the encounter unharmed. However there is no personal accountability applied to Blake, he can not only disobey orders with no judgement, he can walk away, conceal his hands and people still blame the Police! Like I say it’s like people want to wilfully ignore the personal responsibility on the part of the suspect just so they can go and riot and smash s*** up and vent their anger over George Floyd all over again. It’d just extreme tribalism, where there is no impartiality and examination of the evidence.

[Piddy]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

@Piddy I wouldn’t deny that systemic racism is real, and that Black people are treated differently on average by the police. 
 

But those facts don’t also mean that fear is an extremely powerful emotion that can, and does lead to shooting first and asking questions later. The Jacob Blake video to me is an example of a police officer that is very scared, yelling at Blake to comply. Blake doesn’t and reaches for something in his car. I think fear is what motivated that cop to shoot. Not racism, in this particular case.

Of course one would need the mental capacity to treat and assess instances of police shootings separately instead of piling them all under the same racism blanket. Some I’m sure are due to racism, but some are not.

 You agree that systemic racism is real and agree that police treat black people differently.

  Then excuse it because of fear.  But the fear is a result of systemic racism.  

Google Stockley Carmichael.  He made a speech in 1965.  He talks about how white people were afraid of going into black communities (actually says ghetto).

So they sent white cops in to police the ghetto.  The cops were scared because of systemic racism.

You see ghettos were / are a result of systemic racism.

You can't police people you are afraid of.  This is why community policing has been such a success.

You're not afraid of people you know.  This conversation has been going in since I was a little kid.

Google Bill Russell who was one of my sports hero's growing up.  See what he was saying back in the early 1960's.

See we've been having this so called conversation for decades.

After all this time it's time for action.  Been enough talk.  We know what the problem is.  Time to act.

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Piddy

[gaius]

The Wisconsin AG released a statement that there was a knife on the floor of Jacob Blake's car. That combined with  the fact he was in a physical altercation with the cops right before is about all you need for reasonable cause to shoot him. He in his infinite wisdom gave them permission basically.

While 7 times sounds very excessive, perhaps the real problem is that cops often carry 9mm weapons. Which can require several shots before the person being shot is actually incapacitated. Maybe a good solution would be a campaign to arm every officer in America with desert eagle .50 caliber handguns, so only one shot is required. 

[some_username1]

5 hours ago, Piddy said:

Not sure what your point is except to defend the cop.  The murder of Castile was caught on cell phone video by his girlfriend.  I remember the video.  I believe her over the cop.  The cop had a hair trigger IMO.  The "I felt my life was in danger" is the default get out of jail excuse for many of these cops.

How many of these recent killings by cops do you think if no video was taken would use that same excuse?  I bet dollars to donuts it would be used all the time.  The cell phone video is the great truth teller.

There was a case of two black cops who shot an autistic white 6 year old, what do you think their excuse was? Was that racist? For every incident of a white cop killing a black civilian in seemingly cold blood there is a complementary incidence of a white/black cop killing a white suspect. It muddies the narrative somewhat and suggests that, more than anything, the Police are either on a power trip or are unable to handle pressure situations involving live weapons. And that seems to plausible to me. What sort of training can you put this guys through that accurately simulates having to make life or death decisions in split seconds. I bloody well wouldn’t do it for all the money in the world. Sadly it’s also just the way it is, because as long as America sees fit to arm it’s civilians there is no choice but to have an armed Police force on the streets, with all the problems that entails.

Edited August 27, 2020 by some_username1

[Bantosm]

17 hours ago, basil67 said:

@Bantosm where did you get the information that the encounter occurred because officers had active warrants for Blake's arrest?   I was of the understanding that the encounter occurred because police were called to a domestic incident.   The truth of what was happening at the incident remains to be be discovered.

It's an active police investigation. They won't release certain info until it's been completed. However, the police were focused on Blake within minutes of their arrival, consistent with arresting warrants.

11 hours ago, Prudence V said:

Even if he had a knife, even if a taser hadn’t worked.... a single shot to the leg to incapacitate him would have sufficed. Him lying next to his car clutching a knife wounded in the leg would still be a “neutralised threat”. There was no need to shoot him repeatedly in the back. That is overkill. 

Why do expect the police to believe Blake's statement that he had a knife when he was not complying with them? 

6 hours ago, Tamfana said:

George Floyd was killed despite complying.

That's not true. Floyd struggled and resisted when the police tried to place him back into the squad vechicle.

Quote

"Charles Kinsey" too.  Police shot a black man who was caring for a mentally ill man.  Both were unarmed and the caregiver, Kinsey, was on the ground with arms up, begging not to be shot. And police shot him.

Again, that's ignoring the millions of police encounters with black men with no issues who complied. 

[Piddy]

25 minutes ago, gaius said:

The Wisconsin AG released a statement that there was a knife on the floor of Jacob Blake's car. That combined with  the fact he was in a physical altercation with the cops right before is about all you need for reasonable cause to shoot him. He in his infinite wisdom gave them permission basically.

While 7 times sounds very excessive, perhaps the real problem is that cops often carry 9mm weapons. Which can require several shots before the person being shot is actually incapacitated. Maybe a good solution would be a campaign to arm every officer in America with desert eagle .50 caliber handguns, so only one shot is required. 

Could not disagree more.

Yet a 17 year old white male who shot and killed two people is allowed to walk right by the cops armed when people are telling them that he had just shot people. 

And they gave him water.

And you're wrong, the Supreme Court ruled in 1985  that you can't shoot an unarmed fleeing person unless he's a threat.

It has not been established that he did anything with the knife.  

And a physical altercation with the cops is not an automatic death sentence.

I'm against state sponsored executions by the police.  Too many of these cases where they act as judge, jury and executioner.

And the AG's statement isn't the be all end all.  They'll be an independent investigation.

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by Piddy

[Piddy]

46 minutes ago, some_username1 said:

There was a case of two black cops who shot an autistic white 6 year old, what do you think their excuse was? Was that racist? For every incident of a white cop killing a black civilian in seemingly cold blood there is a complementary incidence of a white/black cop killing a white suspect. It muddies the narrative somewhat and suggests that, more than anything, the Police are either on a power trip or are unable to handle pressure situations involving live weapons. And that seems to plausible to me. What sort of training can you put this guys through that accurately simulates having to make life or death decisions in split seconds. I bloody well wouldn’t do it for all the money in the world. Sadly it’s also just the way it is, because as long as America sees fit to arm it’s civilians there is no choice but to have an armed Police force on the streets, with all the problems that entails.

Typical false equivalence.  Whites aren't looked at as suspects first.

Stop looking at black people as suspects first.

Police need to be of the community they police.

Police need to not view the people they police as 'other'.

Admit that what black people go thru everyday is real.

Admit that white privilege prevents you from empathizing with someone who is not white.

Stop using ignorance as a reason to excuse the status quo.

That's a start.. I must say it's exhausting as a white person to see so many people in such denial.

It's the main reason we never seem to make any progress.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Piddy

[gaius]

@Piddy, in life there are certain things you can do that give others legal justification to kill you. Getting into a physical altercation and then giving the appearance of reaching for a weapon is one of them. And that's what Jacob did. He handed the cops a fairly open and shut case to shoot him and he's very fortunate he's not dead.

Now, you can certainly say that you don't really care if they had reasonable cause to fear for their safety. That because black people got a raw deal in the past now those privileged white cops need to get a raw deal in retaliation. That irregardless of the law, they should be tried and convicted in a political prosecution for murder. But that doesn't mean the cops didn't have justification. Based on the video and the evidence as it stands, no reasonable person can say they didn't have cause to fear for their safety. 

Like I said earlier, perhaps a small part of the outrage in this case is the widespread ignorance of how guns work. And that with smaller caliber weapons like a 9mm people often don't just fall over after being shot once like they do in the movies. Or maybe the cop was using a bigger round and just overreacted. But that's what Jacob allowed them to do. Complaining about how many times someone shoots you after you give them permission to shoot you is kind of silly.

[some_username1]

7 hours ago, gaius said:

@Piddy, in life there are certain things you can do that give others legal justification to kill you. Getting into a physical altercation and then giving the appearance of reaching for a weapon is one of them. And that's what Jacob did. He handed the cops a fairly open and shut case to shoot him and he's very fortunate he's not dead.

Now, you can certainly say that you don't really care if they had reasonable cause to fear for their safety. That because black people got a raw deal in the past now those privileged white cops need to get a raw deal in retaliation. That irregardless of the law, they should be tried and convicted in a political prosecution for murder. But that doesn't mean the cops didn't have justification. Based on the video and the evidence as it stands, no reasonable person can say they didn't have cause to fear for their safety. 

Like I said earlier, perhaps a small part of the outrage in this case is the widespread ignorance of how guns work. And that with smaller caliber weapons like a 9mm people often don't just fall over after being shot once like they do in the movies. Or maybe the cop was using a bigger round and just overreacted. But that's what Jacob allowed them to do. Complaining about how many times someone shoots you after you give them permission to shoot you is kind of silly.

Exactly, I don’t give a crap what colour the suspect is- if you disobey the Police’s orders and conceal your hands you are giving them the excuse to shoot you.

It appears those on the left wing are not putting any personal responsibility on Blake at all. All the onus is on the Police to resolve the situation and the suspect is not expected to comply or come quietly and he can reach for weapons in the knowledge that the country will riot in his honour if he’s not allowed to reach for a knofe in his car, it’s ridiculous.

People watch that video and before it’s even finished they are out on the streets kicking off and not engaging their brain and trying to see both sides of the interaction, which, when you do that, marks it out as being vastly different from the George Floyd situation. When I first saw it I was horrified as the video was obfuscated from the point that Blake reaches the car door, then when I watched it again and read the news page containing the video which explained the crucial detail that he reached inside his car, I started asking myself what responsibility does Blake have in this situation? Can he do what he likes, maybe produce a gun and the Police just stand there and watch? To people who think the skin colour is an issue here I suspect if it was a white suspect this wouldn’t even be on their radar and they would see the officer as fully justified in pulling the trigger because he can’t see the guys hands. This is news because it’s more black people getting shot by Police on top of George Floyd and the guy in Atlanta and that’s the only detail that the left wing are focusing on and NOT on the minutiae of what actually happened.

[elaine567]

9 hours ago, Piddy said:

Yet a 17 year old white male who shot and killed two people is allowed to walk right by the cops armed when people are telling them that he had just shot people. 

NOT because he was white but because the scene was utter chaos and the police were looking to identify and help the victims at that stage.
The guy was calmly walking up the road with his hands up, he did not look guilty, he was not threatening, he did not look panicked or nervous.
He was not the only guy out there with a gun either.
I doubt the cops even registered the people shouting, as it was mayhem on the streets.
Why chase this likely innocent guy when the real killer could have been still on the murder scene and still dangerous?
Priorities.
On hindsight they were wrong but no real harm done they picked him up quite easily later on.

[Piddy]

10 hours ago, gaius said:

@Piddy, in life there are certain things you can do that give others legal justification to kill you. Getting into a physical altercation and then giving the appearance of reaching for a weapon is one of them. And that's what Jacob did. He handed the cops a fairly open and shut case to shoot him and he's very fortunate he's not dead.

There was no altercation that I've seen.  He was walking away.  Speculation on your part that he was reaching for a weapon.  All they've said is that there was a knife on the floorboard of the car.   Blake told them there was a knife in the car.   Not facing the cop and brandishing a weapon and getting shot 7 times in the back is not an open and shut case in my book.

10 hours ago, gaius said:

Now, you can certainly say that you don't really care if they had reasonable cause to fear for their safety. That because black people got a raw deal in the past now those privileged white cops need to get a raw deal in retaliation. That irregardless of the law, they should be tried and convicted in a political prosecution for murder. But that doesn't mean the cops didn't have justification. Based on the video and the evidence as it stands, no reasonable person can say they didn't have cause to fear for their safety. 

Again, what I'm saying is blacks are seen as suspects first.  You refuse to acknowledge that.  I'm a reasonable person and I saw no cause for the cop to shoot him in the back at point blank range 7 times.  

10 hours ago, gaius said:

Like I said earlier, perhaps a small part of the outrage in this case is the widespread ignorance of how guns work. And that with smaller caliber weapons like a 9mm people often don't just fall over after being shot once like they do in the movies. Or maybe the cop was using a bigger round and just overreacted. But that's what Jacob allowed them to do. Complaining about how many times someone shoots you after you give them permission to shoot you is kind of silly.

What's silly is continually excusing bad choices by cops.  Again, from what I've seen there was no justification to try to execute him by shooting him in the back 7 times.  Don't care what type gun the cop had etc..  I don't want cops shooting people in the back walking away.  Period.

[Piddy]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

NOT because he was white but because the scene was utter chaos and the police were looking to identify and help the victims at that stage.
The guy was calmly walking up the road with his hands up, he did not look guilty, he was not threatening, he did not look panicked or nervous.
He was not the only guy out there with a gun either.
I doubt the cops even registered the people shouting, as it was mayhem on the streets.
Why chase this likely innocent guy when the real killer could have been still on the murder scene and still dangerous?
Priorities.
On hindsight they were wrong but no real harm done they picked him up quite easily later on.

Yes they were wrong.  And using your logic the cops could've let Blake walk away and picked him up later as well.  

It makes no sense to me to justify shooting a person who is walking away and allowing an armed gunmen who had just shot and killed 2 people and people are yelling that to the cops and he walks right past them.

What if Rittenhouse were black?  Do you think he would've been allowed to walk past them armed and receive a drink of water while people were yelling that he just shot people?

Yet again, people justify the actions of police cart blanche as we see in the Blake shooting.

Again and again and again and again.  Black people are seen and treated differently by many people including cops. Because of the color of their skin they are judged differently.  There's a long history of this being the case.  Unfortunately it's still the case.

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by Piddy

[lana-banana]

Having a knife in the car justifies grabbing someone by the back and shooting them seven times? I have a knife, a wrench, a towel and a flashlight in my car at all times. Does that make me "armed" when I'm not in my car? Do I deserve to be grabbed and shot seven times too?

There is no way anyone can watch the video and conclude Jacob Blake was posing any kind of imminent threat unless you believe that Black men are inherently dangerous. Grabbing a suspect is one thing. Emptying seven shots into his back is never justifiable, ever, full stop. This is not a confusing situation. Cops don't do this to white suspects who have already committed murder or who are armed, so why is it appropriate when the suspects are Black?

A friend of mine is a very devout Catholic and when he sees/hears people saying horrible things his reaction is to say "Go see a priest!", sometimes with "you sick f-ck" added at the end, in a tone of utter disgust. I used to think it was kind of ridiculous, and I'm not religious myself, but nowadays I see where he's coming from. If you find yourself online defending the assassination of an unarmed (having a knife in your possession but not on your person means you're unarmed, this isn't hard) man then, seriously: go see a priest. 

[d0nnivain]

Not listening to a directive from the police & moving into a sphere where you could access a weapon absolutely means you deserve to be grabbed & thrown to the ground.  It does not mean somebody should kneel on your neck or shoot you but grab you, hell yes.