Jacob Blake Video

[elaine567]

1 minute ago, Piddy said:

The point is that with this law people feel emboldened to shoot first and ask questions later.

Ok, but in some cases it would be, hold off the fire and end up dead or severely injured, that is the core problem.
If Jacob Blake got hold of the knife he apparently was reaching for, where would it have ended? 
It is not simple.

[Piddy]

2 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Ok, but in some cases it would be, hold off the fire and end up dead or severely injured, that is the core problem.
If Jacob Blake got hold of the knife he apparently was reaching for, where would it have ended? 
It is not simple.

We were talking about civilians who have the right to kill someone and don't have to retreat (stand your ground laws).

In the Blake case it's simple for me.  Don't shoot a guy in the back seven times.  And it hasn't been proven that he was going for a knife.  

[Tamfana]

It doesn't make sense to me that he would be going for a knife given the old saying, don't bring a knife to a gun fight.  

Do any black men in this country believe that a bunch of cops wouldn't kill him with their guns if he pulled out a knife?  Seems ridiculous to me. 

"As all you cops stand here near me, I'm going to go to my car and get a pointless weapon, hopelessly inadequate for self-defense or even an attack, so you can kill me?"   

Edited September 5, 2020 by Tamfana

[schlumpy]

It's called suicide by Cop and is a real phenomena.

[homecoming]

7 hours ago, Tamfana said:

It doesn't make sense to me that he would be going for a knife given the old saying, don't bring a knife to a gun fight.  

Do any black men in this country believe that a bunch of cops wouldn't kill him with their guns if he pulled out a knife?  Seems ridiculous to me. 

"As all you cops stand here near me, I'm going to go to my car and get a pointless weapon, hopelessly inadequate for self-defense or even an attack, so you can kill me?"   

Totally agree. This year especially, what black man would try and escalate a fight with a group of armed police officers with a knife, of all things? It's not making sense. 

His body language was also very calm, as he walked to his car. To me, it suggests that he was thinking something like "I don't want to deal with this right now" and was trying to leave the scene calmly. 

And I am not even saying that because he's black - it just doesn't look like he was trying to escalate, tbh.

[Weezy1973]

This is more complicated and nuanced than people like to think about. It’s clear that the officer isn’t trained in a manner that would let him incapacitate Blake without resorting to pointing his gun and making demands. Somebody properly trained would have been able to take him down without a weapon. 
 

The officer also has no idea what Blake is reaching for in the car, so out of fear (especially in the US where anybody can have a gun) he shoots.

If you go down the rabbit hole on YouTube with these types of interactions, you’ll see all sorts of situations with all sorts of outcomes. All races on each side. All outcomes from the suspect shooting the officer to a peaceful resolution. And everything in between. Unsurprisingly why you won’t see is some pattern of white officers shooting black people over and over. It’s about as much of a mixed bag as you can get.

What will likely stand out (if you’re able to view the videos objectively) is how this particular incident escalated because the officer wasn’t trained well. You’ll see other incidents with non-violent resolutions. In fact most end without violence.

 

Anybody who just claims this is a symptom of racism hasn’t looked at the data. And I’m someone who accepts that systemic racism is a problem. At the same time every incident is separate and shouldn’t be painted with the same brush.

[elaine567]

21 hours ago, homecoming said:

it just doesn't look like he was trying to escalate, tbh.

He was trying to escape justice and  was arrogantly ignoring the officers.
Yes taking a knife to a gunfight is not sensible but it may be, if you are convinced they won't shoot.  

[homecoming]

6 hours ago, elaine567 said:

He was trying to escape justice and  was arrogantly ignoring the officers.
Yes taking a knife to a gunfight is not sensible but it may be, if you are convinced they won't shoot.  

Doesn’t matter. Seven shots is too much. Grapple him then, or whatever. Police in the US seem obsessed with guns.

Convinced they won’t shoot? In this current climate? Doubt it

Edited September 7, 2020 by homecoming

[gaius]

You don't get to leave the scene if you want to when you're under arrest @homecoming. Nor do you get to potentially reach for a weapon or get into a car you could use to run over or drag an officer. And I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone mention what he was actually being arrested for. If they did I missed it.

"The victim, who is only identified by her initials in the paperwork, told police she was asleep in bed with one of her children when Blake came into the room around 6 a.m. and allegedly said, “I want my sh-t,” the record states.

She told cops Blake then used his finger to sexually assault her, sniffed it and said, “Smells like you’ve been with other men,” the criminal complaint alleges.

The officer who took her statement said she “had a very difficult time telling him this and cried as she told how the defendant assaulted her.”

A million real injustices occur every day and this is what people are choosing to waste their time with.

[mark clemson]

On 9/5/2020 at 6:46 AM, elaine567 said:

Ok, but in some cases it would be, hold off the fire and end up dead or severely injured, that is the core problem.
If Jacob Blake got hold of the knife he apparently was reaching for, where would it have ended? 
It is not simple.

Actually IF Blake was reaching for his knife and had actually gotten ahold of the knife and was brandishing it at the cops THEN they'd be justified in shooting him. Some people might still have a problem with that, but reasonable people will draw the line somewhere.

Of course, what probably actually happened is the cop felt it wasn't worth the risk he might have a gun in there, so shot him 9 times in the back WITHOUT him actually even touching a weapon. And that of course IS a problem. If a cop can shoot you any time he decides he feels threatened with minimal consequences - well, there are people who will abuse that power (and do). This cop might only have been scared, but HE DID NOT SEE  A GUN and still SHOT A MAN IN THE BACK.

THAT is the problem.

[schlumpy]

2 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

And that of course IS a problem. If a cop can shoot you any time he decides he feels threatened with minimal consequences - well, there are people who will abuse that power (and do). This cop might only have been scared, but HE DID NOT SEE  A GUN and still SHOT A MAN IN THE BACK.

THAT is the problem.

Ok Mark. You and I have different standards.

I see nothing wrong with what the police did. They had a suspect who was not obeying orders that reached into his car. Inside his car is a child. If he pulls a gun out, the police cannot fire without fear of hitting the child. The policeman did not know what type of weapon he was reaching for if any. If it was gun he may have got several shoots off and killed a bystander or the the policeman himself. There were too many bad outcomes involving other people to have much concern for a man who had gone our of his way to make himself a threat.

With all due respect.

[mark clemson]

21 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

You and I have different standards.

You're of course entitled to your view.

It seems to me that if they shot the guy with the kid in the car, the kid was at risk then as well. So the kid was at risk as soon as anyone (cop or Blake) pulled a gun. I guess in theory Blake could have tried to use his own child as a human shield and shoot at police or something, but that is jumping WAY ahead even for a split-second decision. IF it was suicide by cop he could have just as easily stepped away from the car and brandished his weapon or similar. Assumptions can go either way.

I think the truth is cops today have free reign to shoot you or your kids and grandchildren etc, any time they feel threatened and can't see your hands - with minimal consequences. You don't have a problem with it because you're not black and subject to the worst of it.

[schlumpy]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

I think the truth is cops today have free reign to shoot you or your kids and grandchildren etc, any time they feel threatened and can't see your hands - with minimal consequences. You don't have a problem with it because you're not black and subject to the worst of it.

Not at all Mark. I understand where you are coming from and I find it surprising.

[Weezy1973]

3 hours ago, mark clemson said:

If a cop can shoot you any time he decides he feels threatened with minimal consequences - well, there are people who will abuse that power (and do).

The cop doesn’t decide to feel threatened. He just feels threatened. It’s easy to sit back behind your keyboard and say he should have made a rational decision, but in the moment, with the adrenaline pumping, and the suspect not doing as ordered at gun point, fear of what he might do seems like a reasonable, natural response doesn’t it?

[mark clemson]

8 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

The cop ... just feels threatened.

True. However, if he has the option to shoot someone whenever he feels threatened, that's a problem. Some people might abuse that power and apparently some are. This specific cop I think, just reacted in fear. 

Many cops show a LOT of restraint and deserve credit for that. Some, when they think the cameras are off don't. Others react in spur of the moment fear.

A cop is indeed only human. If he/she gets a pass on shooting someone whenever he feels threatened then he needs to be replaced, e.g. by a remotely controlled robot. This is actually less far-fetched than you might think as we've been doing it with drones for over a decade. Mostly a matter of money. Set up the robots so the cops can never turn the cameras off and THEY ARE HELD ACCOUNTABLE for inappropriate use of force with them. Being scared is no longer an excuse. If wishes were fishes...

[Weezy1973]

10 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Many cops show a LOT of restraint and deserve credit for that. Some, when they think the cameras are off don't. Others react in spur of the moment fear.

A cop is indeed only human.

Exactly. And I suspect that if this incident goes to trial (and it might) it will fall in favor of the cop. Not because the system is racist, but because, although certainly not the optimal course of action, most people could see that the cop had a reasonable case for thinking his life was at risk. Whether his life was actually at risk or not, isn’t nearly as relevant. 

[mark clemson]

13 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

 Whether his life was actually at risk or not, isn’t nearly as relevant. 

Exactly the problem. Perhaps his life SHOULD be at risk. I.e. killing a person without actual justification while a police officer as a capital offense. Then he'd be thinking twice.

My personal belief is that if the system wasn't wrist-slapping these guys there'd be a LOT less of this.

Not sure if you have kids but perhaps when one of these guys kills YOUR kid or your Wife etc, and walks away with minimal consequences you'll start seeing it differently.

[Weezy1973]

1 minute ago, mark clemson said:

Exactly the problem. Perhaps his life SHOULD be at risk. I.e. killing a person without actual justification while a police officer as a capital offense. Then he'd be thinking twice.

And in many cases he’d also be dead. 

 

2 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

My personal belief is that if the system wasn't wrist-slapping these guys there'd be a LOT less of this.

I’ll agree that bad cops should definitely be held accountable and that police culture needs to change in general.

 

3 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Not sure if you have kids but perhaps when one of these guys kills YOUR kid or your Wife etc, and walks away with minimal consequences you'll start seeing it differently.

I do have kids and a wife. The thing is I understand that these incidents are rare and by far the exception to the rule. The chances of this happening to anybody is exceedingly rare. And in this case in particular, it seems understandable what the cop did. Kind of like a doctor making a reasonable diagnosis based on symptoms, but ultimately being wrong. 

[mark clemson]

Fair enough @Weezy1973 . I agree they are rare given the # of arrests that take place, etc.