Women initiates the Divorce first

[Zona]

9 minutes ago, 5x5 said:

While my second marriage is still happily going strong at a bit over 21¼ years in.

Awesome! Glad you found that elusive happiness that many of us never do. Although I think I could be ecstatically happy single. Being in my mid 40's I could have a field day and date a ton of women in their 30's. 

Sadly, it is becoming increasing clear that I married a covert narcissist, so being single is looking better all the time. There is zero chance I would ever remarry.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Zona
typo

[amerikajin]

10 minutes ago, Woggle said:

I talk to men who have had their marriages go south and from their point of view they try and try to make her happy and do whatever emotional work their wives say they should do and it doesn't matter one bit. No matter what he does she has it in he mind that he is the cause of her problems. If you ask me men need to stop twisting themselves into pretzels trying to please a resentful woman. The true cavemen alpha types are thriving these days.

I also thrived after my first marriage ended and she is a trainwreck. I am remarried and my wife is certainly a good one who is worth every bit of effort but if for some reason this ends I will thrive as well.

There are female psychopaths just like there are male nutjobs - they exist.

But in a lot of cases in which men twist themselves into pretzels, the damage is already done. Women have tried to communicate that something's not right, and men just haven't picked up on it.

The one thing I think you and I would agree with is that sometimes women don't communicate explicitly and as frequently as men would like. Men assume that the absence of an argument = everything's okay for now. In reality, that is not at all the reality. Women avoid arguments just like men do. Nobody wants to fight 24/7.

So if I could make a request or suggestion to the women reading this, it's please, don't expect guys to read your minds. Just tell us what's itching you and we'll try to scratch it. Men need manuals sometimes, which I know is frustrating to women who wish we would just 'get it.' But we just don't.

[GeorgiaPeach1]

On 8/25/2020 at 10:43 AM, amerikajin said:

That assumes that women are designated to do these things, which increasingly they are not these days. This can create new types of tensions, of course, as many older guys probably grew up in households in which guys were the breadwinners, only to be living in a time where women have their own opportunities and resent being shackled by the constraints of marital 'norms.'

There are many, many, many posts on various forums from fed up women who work full-time jobs, then go home to begin their "second shift" of cleaning, cooking and childcare. 

[Mysterio]

My buddy DT is on year seven of his relationship with his fiancee and their two bio kids.  She calls the shots.  She introduced her older 2 kids in month 2 of dating in March of 2013 and somehow got him to have a planned child with her in 2014 and move in with her in 2015 with the birth of their child in August of 2015.  She is still legally married to her older kids father.  No divorce and the Ex according to her won't sign papers that make it look like their is some parental alination.  He wanted out first.  Not her. 

Other friend DB was told after the 8 month of his second child was born.  His wife wanted out of her marriage.  She was on Anti depression meds.  He was not aware of it.   She is now leaving guy #5 and DB has been divorced from her since 2009.  

Its getting to the point where I don't think most people are vetting their SO well.  I think that is whats contributing to Divorce.  Can't their be something like going out for 2 yrs.  No Bio Kids or Cohabbing together.  Whats the rush and it seems like its the Women that are the ones that are Gung Ho to have kids and live together.  The Men just follow suite, because I guess if they don't.  The women will break up with them/ Turbulence.  

There has to be some correlation between women filing first and the 70 % Divorce rate.  How is that 30% of us are making it work, but 70% of us can't.  I think I am easy.  All I really want is Conversation/Laughs and Physical Affection with a women that looks at me in a romantic way.  Thats the core and we build our lives around it.  I don't know if I really want to get married.  It just seems like its short term relationship is the reality at the moment.  I don't want it to be that way.  Its just the way I see it around me.  Nothing between most couples gets worked out when your forming.  Unless I am with a woman for at least 2-3 yrs.  Its a short term relationship.  

[mark clemson]

6 hours ago, Zona said:

I was thinking about this the other day, and came to the same conclusion. Hundreds of thousands of years of evolution has made us who we are, and a lot of those traits and instincts are not transitioning well into modern western culture, to the point where if we didn't have immigration and child births from people from more traditional cultures we would be dying out.

I suspect it's not just in modern western culture. Biologically, many if not the vast majority of us are more or less programmed to be serial monogamists. So it's perfectly natural to have the initial 2 years or whatever of butterflies make us THINK it's meant for forever (and have kids, etc) and then for that to eventually wear off and things start to grate and eventually a person can't stand the other one and wants to separate and/or is often off looking for improved life satisfaction via a new mate (whether divorced first or no) or in some cases simply via being alone.

Marriage (which has probably been around in one form or another since before recorded history, so quite a while) is glommed on to that existing mess, and can be seen as the surrounding society's way of attempting to stabilize things and avoid lots of kids running around where people aren't sure who's supposed to be feeding them (although no doubt there's more to it than just that).

I suspect it's costs of bearing children, philosophies/cultural attitudes towards it, and the ability we now have to (usually) control whether we have them or not that "causes" the low birth rates. Kids used to be sent out to fend for themselves at 18 (or earlier) and were ohw you ensured someone was there to take care of you when you were older. Now they are a huge cost of indefinite duration, while savings and social security "take care of you" when you're older (ha!).

[mark clemson]

On the costs of divorce thing, it's noteworthy that some large % of men ask for the wife to stay home so he can be the main breadwinner. And of course some women want this as well.

It probably sounds great at the start, when you assume the marriage will last forever. Later on, maybe not so much...

[Wiseman2]

18 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

I suspect it's not just in modern western culture.

It's more complicated now than just giving the goats back 🐐🐐🐐🐐🐐🐐

[Zona]

11 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

I suspect it's not just in modern western culture. Biologically, many if not the vast majority of us are more or less programmed to be serial monogamists. So it's perfectly natural to have the initial 2 years or whatever of butterflies make us THINK it's meant for forever (and have kids, etc) and then for that to eventually wear off and things start to grate and eventually a person can't stand the other one and wants to separate and/or is often off looking for improved life satisfaction via a new mate (whether divorced first or no) or in some cases simply via being alone.

Marriage (which has probably been around in one form or another since before recorded history, so quite a while) is glommed on to that existing mess, and can be seen as the surrounding society's way of attempting to stabilize things and avoid lots of kids running around where people aren't sure who's supposed to be feeding them (although no doubt there's more to it than just that).

I suspect it's costs of bearing children, philosophies/cultural attitudes towards it, and the ability we now have to (usually) control whether we have them or not that "causes" the low birth rates. Kids used to be sent out to fend for themselves at 18 (or earlier) and were ohw you ensured someone was there to take care of you when you were older. Now they are a huge cost of indefinite duration, while savings and social security "take care of you" when you're older (ha!).

Yes I agree with the serial monogamy but there is another factor involved.

I will probably be accused of spreading red-pill nonsense, but I am not red-pill and never will be. Speaking from a purely scientific point of view, the other factor here is the female estros cycle. During ovulation (most) women are drawn to (for lack of a better term) stereotypical alpha males; chiseled appearance, strong, good symmetry, highly assertive etc.  When not ovulating, it has been shown that most women are more attracted to men who are better fathers, more reliable, etc.  There is this monthly swing both ways, because most women can't find an alpha type man who is also a good reliable partner and a doting father, and this occurs within the longer term serial monogamy cycle that is intended to give a safe environment for children.

Bottom line is our instincts are geared towards passing on good genes and giving our offspring the best chance to survive. It had to be this way.

Having said all that, I am a theist who believes we have free will, so we don't have to be slaves to our feral instincts, but they're always there lurking in the background!

[amerikajin]

2 hours ago, Mysterio said:

Its getting to the point where I don't think most people are vetting their SO well.  I think that is whats contributing to Divorce.  Can't their be something like going out for 2 yrs.  No Bio Kids or Cohabbing together.  Whats the rush and it seems like its the Women that are the ones that are Gung Ho to have kids and live together.  The Men just follow suite, because I guess if they don't.  The women will break up with them/ Turbulence.  

There has to be some correlation between women filing first and the 70 % Divorce rate.  How is that 30% of us are making it work, but 70% of us can't.  I think I am easy.  All I really want is Conversation/Laughs and Physical Affection with a women that looks at me in a romantic way.  Thats the core and we build our lives around it.  I don't know if I really want to get married.  It just seems like its short term relationship is the reality at the moment.  I don't want it to be that way.  Its just the way I see it around me.  Nothing between most couples gets worked out when your forming.  Unless I am with a woman for at least 2-3 yrs.  Its a short term relationship.  

The conclusion I come to is that the conventional idea of marriage in which we expect two completely different people from different households to come together and stay together until death do them part is not really natural. IIIRC, evolutionary psychologists and anthropologists have concluded that humans evolved to be serial monogamists. We didn't evolve to live to couple with one person from the age of 14 to 40, let alone marrying them at 25 and living with them until we're 90. We evolved to pair up long enough to make sure that offspring survived, but even in that sense, extended families (tribes people) took care of each other.

The first archeological evidence of something resembling a modern marriage dates back to about 5000 years ago in ancient Iraq, although it was probably heading in that direction sometime between the 5000 years before that time when we first managed to grow crops. But the point is, marriage is an artificial, man-made institution that was developed to deal with "problems" that our new ways of living had created. To make marriage work requires some degree of understanding and flexibility that there are going to be differences of opinions and values, and then once you accept that, both parties have to really mean it when they say they're committed.

Modern nuclear family marriage (again, in the US) has a low batting average in my experience. I look at my own family and I'd say it's typical. Our clan has a fair number of divorces. Some of those who have divorced have gone on to have better second marriages, but a majority failed at least once. My own parents were on their second marriages after having pretty much failed in their first ones, and theirs wasn't all that great, really. Among friends I knew growing up, my family was typical. And I've known plenty of fellow Gen-X'ers who have at least one bad marriage to their name.

I'd probably conclude that we can break marriages down into 4 types.

There's first the 40-50% of marriages that fail outright and end in divorce.

Out of the remaining 50%, you have probably another 25% in which there's no divorce but a high degree of dysfunction that ranges to tolerable to barely tolerable. They have a bad marriage, but they just learn to live with it somehow.

Out of that remaining 25% of marriages that function fairly well, probably half of those couples have had "crossroads" or "moment of truth" in which they questioned the future of their marriage, but unlike the dysfunctional couples, they found ways not only to live in a bad marriage but actually found a way to have a reasonably good marriage afterward, despite having the same kinds of ups and downs every couple has.

I'd say, then, that only 10-15% of couples can truly say that they've had a long and healthy marriage and not once thought about divorce. And even in this group, there are probably heated arguments. The difference is that divorce is never thought of as the solution to their problems. That's because couples in this category go into marriage with probably a few things going for them that other couples don't have. They probably have similar values. In fact they probably have shared values and shared life experiences and attitudes that reinforce their commitments to the idea of marriage as a lifelong commitment. They also probably have a strong social support system, which helps them not only in their marriage but in other ways, too.

So there you have it: probably only 10-25% of modern marriages are really built to last. It's no surprise then that a lot of people are confused and trying out different living arrangements ranging from cohabitation to serial Tinder sex.

Edited August 26, 2020 by amerikajin

[Woggle]

7 hours ago, amerikajin said:

There are female psychopaths just like there are male nutjobs - they exist.

But in a lot of cases in which men twist themselves into pretzels, the damage is already done. Women have tried to communicate that something's not right, and men just haven't picked up on it.

The one thing I think you and I would agree with is that sometimes women don't communicate explicitly and as frequently as men would like. Men assume that the absence of an argument = everything's okay for now. In reality, that is not at all the reality. Women avoid arguments just like men do. Nobody wants to fight 24/7.

So if I could make a request or suggestion to the women reading this, it's please, don't expect guys to read your minds. Just tell us what's itching you and we'll try to scratch it. Men need manuals sometimes, which I know is frustrating to women who wish we would just 'get it.' But we just don't.

This is true. In most cases I think if women came to men like adults instead of gearing up for a fight and voiced their concerns most men would be receptive, Instead they bottle it up until it explodes in a hostile and attacking kind of way and like any natural human being when attacked the man wants to defend himself. I think the reason my marriage is one of those 15% is because when she has an issue she sits down with me and we deal with it like mature adults. The same is true from my end.

[Ruby Slippers]

2 hours ago, Mysterio said:

Its getting to the point where I don't think most people are vetting their SO well.  I think that is whats contributing to Divorce.  

I agree this is what it boils down to. Most people get married before they've gained much wisdom about life and love. Youth is wasted on the young  

[basil67]

46 minutes ago, Woggle said:

This is true. In most cases I think if women came to men like adults instead of gearing up for a fight and voiced their concerns most men would be receptive, Instead they bottle it up until it explodes in a hostile and attacking kind of way and like any natural human being when attacked the man wants to defend himself. I think the reason my marriage is one of those 15% is because when she has an issue she sits down with me and we deal with it like mature adults. The same is true from my end.

Shame that coming to my ex husband as a mature adult didn't result in him being receptive.   I think you're being unfair focusing on the woman's approach when it comes to conflict management.  

[Woggle]

3 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Shame that coming to my ex husband as a mature adult didn't result in him being receptive.   I think you're being unfair focusing on the woman's approach when it comes to conflict management.  

I didn't say in every case but stewing and then exploding while he wonders what the hell just happened isn't a good approach either. 

[basil67]

3 hours ago, Mysterio said:

Its getting to the point where I don't think most people are vetting their SO well.  I think that is whats contributing to Divorce. Can't their be something like going out for 2 yrs.  No Bio Kids or Cohabbing together.  Whats the rush and it seems like its the Women that are the ones that are Gung Ho to have kids and live together.  The Men just follow suite, because I guess if they don't.  The women will break up with them/ Turbulence.  

My husband and I broke all your rules and are still happy together 30 years later.  Have been together longer than those who did take it slower.  Vetting is all well and good, but people change and there's no way to predict the ways in which we will change.   Go back to your ancestors and you'll find they got married young and married quickly and didn't divorce.  The ones who got married older were mostly widowed/widowers.   The reason they didn't divorce was not that they were necessarily happy, but because a) divorce wasn't a done thing and b)women couldn't support themselves or own property.   Scratch the surface of marriages of our oldest couples and you'll find that not all is rosy.  But they are still together because they are the last generation which didn't divorce.

As for women being in a rush to have kids, there's this tricky thing where the woman's fertility takes a nosedive.  While a woman who's in her mid 20's has loads of time, a woman in her mid 30's doesn't have that time.  That couple has to work on instinct.  And it's entirely sensible for a mid 30's woman to break up with a guy if she wants kids and he wants to take years to figure it out.    In your case, you're around 40, you don't want to have kids quickly and you've just said that you don't know if you want to get married.  With all this behind you, you'd be a poor choice for a woman who's mid 30s and still hopes to have kids.   

Edited August 26, 2020 by basil67

[basil67]

20 minutes ago, Woggle said:

I didn't say in every case but stewing and then exploding while he wonders what the hell just happened isn't a good approach either. 

It's hardly like all men are good communicators when they're bothered about something.  Both genders can initiate discussions well or poorly.

[basil67]

@Zona it’s my experience that men have quite individual personalities and react to situations in different ways

[Zona]

4 hours ago, basil67 said:

@Zona it’s my experience that men have quite individual personalities and react to situations in different ways

Many women who cheat and then divorce their husbands end up realizing that it wasn't really their husband that was the problem, it was them. This realization often comes when the woman remarries and finds herself with the same feelings she had in the marriage she cheated in.

This is from research by Michelle Langley who is an expert in infidelity.

[basil67]

12 minutes ago, Zona said:

Many women who cheat and then divorce their husbands end up realizing that it wasn't really their husband that was the problem, it was them. This realization often comes when the woman remarries and finds herself with the same feelings she had in the marriage she cheated in.

This is from research by Michelle Langley who is an expert in infidelity.

And so what is the rule when men cheat?

[Zona]

From what I understand, cheating men don't usually divorce their wives. They are not interested in leaving the marriage, just getting some side action.

 

[basil67]

So, whether we're looking at women who cheat and leave or men who cheat and stay.....either way, the marriage is stuffed.  I'm not sure where you're going with this comment. 

[NuevoYorko]

7 hours ago, Woggle said:

This is true. In most cases I think if women came to men like adults instead of gearing up for a fight and voiced their concerns most men would be receptive, Instead they bottle it up until it explodes in a hostile and attacking kind of way and like any natural human being when attacked the man wants to defend himself. I think the reason my marriage is one of those 15% is because when she has an issue she sits down with me and we deal with it like mature adults. The same is true from my end.

This is not true in most cases.  The general situation is similar to mine.  Unhappy marriage, wife wants to work on it, I go halfheartedly because I am not miserable, life is comfortable, we get along.  She is becoming more unhappy (justifiably.  I won't go into it here).   I'm treading water, she is coming to the end of her rope.

No attack.  No woman failing to be an adult.  FFS.

[5x5]

1 hour ago, Zona said:

From what I understand, cheating men don't usually divorce their wives. They are not interested in leaving the marriage, just getting some side action.

The same can be said for women as well.

One of my one night stands was married and she was just after some side action outside of her marriage.

Just the same as one married woman I knew, who asked me to have sex with her on the side, who was quite happy to remain married to her husband.

Another one of my sexual partners wasn't happy being married to her husband at the time, yet she chose to stay with him for two more years after I played with her.

Then there is another woman who I wanted to have sex with, yet thought it was best not to since she was married,. Yet in the beginning I didn't know she was married, so we snogged and fondled wantonly. Yet she was was keen to have sex with me (I was the one who stopped that) despite being married ,with no desire to divorce her husband.

Some men do and don't do that, just as some women do and don't.

[basil67]

16 hours ago, Zona said:

I was thinking about this the other day, and came to the same conclusion. Hundreds of thousands of years of evolution has made us who we are, and a lot of those traits and instincts are not transitioning well into modern western culture, to the point where if we didn't have immigration and child births from people from more traditional cultures we would be dying out.

We're a looong way from dying out. 

Population increase is one of the cornerstones of economies which are growth focused.   It's all a bit shortsighted though, because the world can't sustain endless population growth.   Here in Australia we also have immigration to keep our economy moving....despite the fact that we're already putting a huge strain on resources.  However, I'm not an economist, so I don't know what the alternatives are to an economy which requires constant growth.

[elaine567]

18 hours ago, amerikajin said:

The one thing I think you and I would agree with is that sometimes women don't communicate explicitly and as frequently as men would like. Men assume that the absence of an argument = everything's okay for now. In reality, that is not at all the reality. Women avoid arguments just like men do. Nobody wants to fight 24/7.

Trouble is that many men bulldoze women, so women shut up.
Men either play the overt dominant role and they actively shut her up, or  they  minimise and ignore, passively shutting her up. 
Either way she feels she can't win.
He is happy as all is sorted and fixed, she is seething...
One day, when she has had enough she files.
 

[amerikajin]

3 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Trouble is that many men bulldoze women, so women shut up.
Men either play the overt dominant role and they actively shut her up, or  they  minimise and ignore, passively shutting her up. 
Either way she feels she can't win.
He is happy as all is sorted and fixed, she is seething...
One day, when she has had enough she files.
 

This is true in a lot of cases for sure.