Women initiates the Divorce first

[serial muse]

My datapoint of one is that in my first marriage, my H cheated. He was also a coward about it. I think he thought he was somehow making up for things by "letting" me decide whether/when to file. Cool, thanks.

So yeah, I'm the one who filed, technically. Don't think it means much of anything from a larger gender-societal standpoint. Unless my situation is fairly common, which I can't really speak to.

[Woggle]

9 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

This is not true in most cases.  The general situation is similar to mine.  Unhappy marriage, wife wants to work on it, I go halfheartedly because I am not miserable, life is comfortable, we get along.  She is becoming more unhappy (justifiably.  I won't go into it here).   I'm treading water, she is coming to the end of her rope.

No attack.  No woman failing to be an adult.  FFS.

But when she brings up this unhappiness was there anything you could have done to save the marriage or do you just coldness no matter what you do? Many men from what they tell me try to fix whatever is making her unhappy but often she doesn't even know why she is. It is this vague disillusionment that even she doesn't know what cause is but if the man can't fix it then he is the bad guy. 

[amerikajin]

27 minutes ago, Woggle said:

But when she brings up this unhappiness was there anything you could have done to save the marriage or do you just coldness no matter what you do? Many men from what they tell me try to fix whatever is making her unhappy but often she doesn't even know why she is. It is this vague disillusionment that even she doesn't know what cause is but if the man can't fix it then he is the bad guy. 

When the marriage goes into a death spiral, it's often both parties who contribute, even if accidentally. I'm not talking about dysfunctional, psychotic people but just otherwise decent people who are now dealing with multiple perceived affronts. What can happen is that one person begins to feel that the relationship isn't balanced. They might then 'attack' or simply unload on the person (let's just assume the male in this case). The male then doesn't honestly understand what's going on or sometimes knows what's bothering his spouse but wishes she would just suck it up and deal with it because he doesn't see it as a problem. Before long, both the man and woman feel hurt and offended. This leads to a death spiral in which one or both people wake up and say or think "Okay, I'll deal with your problems, but first I want you to change for me." And that just doesn't work. Over time, positions harden, and before long, one or both parties are starting to think about life beyond marriage. Pretty much over at that point.

[NuevoYorko]

1 hour ago, Woggle said:

But when she brings up this unhappiness was there anything you could have done to save the marriage or do you just coldness no matter what you do? Many men from what they tell me try to fix whatever is making her unhappy but often she doesn't even know why she is. It is this vague disillusionment that even she doesn't know what cause is but if the man can't fix it then he is the bad guy. 

What "many men" have told you is their side of the story.  It's likely that they have no idea how and what they contributed to the demise of their marriages.  And they're talking to you - a man who is already predisposed to thinking women have problems being "adults."  So ...

When communication problems are in the way,  a man trying to "fix" an emotional disconnect is often on the wrong track.  A woman trying to explain to a man what she needs does not necessarily get her point through to the man.  It's like they are speaking two different languages.

 

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, Woggle said:

Many men from what they tell me try to fix whatever is making her unhappy but often she doesn't even know why she is.

Believe me, she knows...

[Ruby Slippers]

It's a classic issue between men and women. The woman nicely brings something up. The man says ok... nothing changes. She eventually escalates to nagging. The man adjusts, often minimally. Only then does she explode. 

In my last relationship, following our first big fight when I aired some grievances, he said he had no idea I felt any of that - even though I had been trying in many positive, productive, non-nagging ways to get the messages through all along.

I think it comes down to compatibility more than anything. Generally, two people are either compatible or they're not, and no amount of adjusting or bending over backwards is going to change that. 

[Acacia98]

On 8/26/2020 at 4:52 PM, amerikajin said:

So if I could make a request or suggestion to the women reading this, it's please, don't expect guys to read your minds. Just tell us what's itching you and we'll try to scratch it. Men need manuals sometimes, which I know is frustrating to women who wish we would just 'get it.' But we just don't.

A funny thing I've observed: many guys genuinely don't want to know. If a woman tells such a man what's bugging her (without being disrespectful or confrontational) he will do his damnedest to avoid listening, acknowledging her grievances, and addressing them. And, when that has happened many times, the woman stops trying. That's the point at which she gives up on the relationship and starts to detach emotionally. Afterwards, it doesn't take much to cause her to break up or to cheat (if she's the cheating type). The man in the situation will say he was blindsided, but the reality is that he chose to ignore the tens of warning signs along the way (because he thought he had the advantage/power in the relationship).

I don't pretend that this is an "all men" or "all women" thing. People vary. Relationships vary. So, it goes without saying, there are men as well as women who are excellent communicators and there are those who are lousy communicators. 

[emprosnet7]

2 minutes ago, Acacia98 said:

A funny thing I've observed: many guys genuinely don't want to know. If a woman tells such a man what's bugging her (without being disrespectful or confrontational) he will do his damnedest to avoid listening, acknowledging her grievances, and addressing them. And, when that has happened many times, the woman stops trying. That's the point at which she gives up on the relationship and starts to detach emotionally. Afterwards, it doesn't take much to cause her to break up or to cheat (if she's the cheating type). The man in the situation will say he was blindsided, but the reality is that he chose to ignore the tens of warning signs along the way (because he thought he had the advantage/power in the relationship).

I don't pretend that this is an "all men" or "all women" thing. People vary. Relationships vary. So, it goes without saying, there are men as well as women who are excellent communicators and there are those who are lousy communicators. 

That can go the other way, the man tells what is bugging him and she ignores the problems... 

[amerikajin]

9 minutes ago, Acacia98 said:

A funny thing I've observed: many guys genuinely don't want to know. If a woman tells such a man what's bugging her (without being disrespectful or confrontational) he will do his damnedest to avoid listening, acknowledging her grievances, and addressing them. And, when that has happened many times, the woman stops trying. That's the point at which she gives up on the relationship and starts to detach emotionally. Afterwards, it doesn't take much to cause her to break up or to cheat (if she's the cheating type). The man in the situation will say he was blindsided, but the reality is that he chose to ignore the tens of warning signs along the way (because he thought he had the advantage/power in the relationship).

I don't pretend that this is an "all men" or "all women" thing. People vary. Relationships vary. So, it goes without saying, there are men as well as women who are excellent communicators and there are those who are lousy communicators. 

You're not wrong, Acacia. You're not wrong.

Indeed, a lot of guys don't want to listen. Maybe they just don't truly think that the issue is a big deal - at least not to them. I blame male conditioning to some degree. Women analyze things in terms of emotions and emotional needs, and they interpret behaviors as being representative of feelings, which men often do not.

A classic example would be repeatedly forgetting to do house chores. If a guy neglects to do house chores or even if they're not done as frequently or as thoroughly as she would like, she is likely to interpret this behavior as having an emotional meaning. "A guy who loves me, who knows how much I like a clean house, would help me clean the friggin house! Obviously, he just doesn't care how I feel about having a clean house, so he must not love me as much as I thought he did."

In reality, the guy is probably thinking, "Okay, okay, I'll throw out the trash now instead of after the football game like I had planned to do (but didn't bother to tell you)." The guy thinks he has explained himself, but the woman feels even more pissed because a) your stupid beer, pizza, and football are more important to you than my feelings about this house, which, oh by the way, I work hard in an office full of sexist males to pay for just like you; b) you don't even have the courtesy to tell me what you were planning to do.

At this point, the guy is really defensive. He's thinking, "How the f*** did I get into this argument? How the f*** do I get out of it?"

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by amerikajin

[amerikajin]

6 minutes ago, emprosnet7 said:

That can go the other way, the man tells what is bugging him and she ignores the problems... 

Yes, but let's face it: most of the time, what's bugging him is what's bugging her first. 😆

I'll just come out and say it, speaking as a guy: We do not handle emotional disconnects and criticism at home well at all. The few men who do 'get it' are probably the most marriageable men on the planet. Men don't want arguments. We just want to go out, earn a paycheck, have a beer after work, and come back to our cave to have a nice quiet dinner and watch the news. We just want to believe that all is well. We take a lack of criticism and a lack of complaining as evidence that all is well on the home front, when in reality, it may in fact be evidence that the wife is starting to not give a toss.

 

[emprosnet7]

6 minutes ago, amerikajin said:

Yes, but let's face it: most of the time, what's bugging him is what's bugging her first. 😆

I'll just come out and say it, speaking as a guy: We do not handle emotional disconnects and criticism at home well at all. The few men who do 'get it' are probably the most marriageable men on the planet. Men don't want arguments. We just want to go out, earn a paycheck, have a beer after work, and come back to our cave to have a nice quiet dinner and watch the news. We just want to believe that all is well. We take a lack of criticism and a lack of complaining as evidence that all is well on the home front, when in reality, it may in fact be evidence that the wife is starting to not give a toss.

 

When ex and I got married, I was involved with the kid like feeding, bathing, changing dippers etc. Washing dishes and hanging laundry to dry.  Right from the start she said that I did not wash the dishes right and did not hang the cloths right. Suppose I didn't do it as well, I would improve with time right? So she told me that she would do it. Later on she would complain that I sit on the computer. Go figure.

Edited August 27, 2020 by emprosnet7

[elaine567]

2 minutes ago, emprosnet7 said:

So she told me that she would do it. Later on she would complain that I sit on the computer. Go figure.

She didn't mean that you give up and go play on your computer, leaving her with it all to do, you were supposed to take it seriously and get better at it... and also find other things that needed doing...

[emprosnet7]

6 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

She didn't mean that you give up and go play on your computer, leaving her with it all to do, you were supposed to take it seriously and get better at it... and also find other things that needed doing...

Listen, yes means yes and no means no. 

[GorillaTheater]

7 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

She didn't mean that you give up and go play on your computer, leaving her with it all to do, you were supposed to take it seriously and get better at it... and also find other things that needed doing...

Oh no, not a chance. One of the things my wife and I got sorted out pretty early on is not to "supervise". "You don't like how I'm doing it? No problem, YOU do it." Both of us got over our need to critique one another's work pretty quickly.

[Ruby Slippers]

9 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

She didn't mean that you give up and go play on your computer, leaving her with it all to do, you were supposed to take it seriously and get better at it... and also find other things that needed doing...

Yes. I think it's a small percentage of men who have these basic courtesies, and that makes them unicorns, basically.

I had an issue with a contractor yesterday and expressed my reaction to it. The guy is so obviously married and knows how to talk to women, because he explained why it happened, said there was no excuse for his mistake, apologized, and said he was going to go above and beyond to correct it. That's exactly what he did. So he took my sour feeling and turned it right around, made me want to reconsider my opinion of the company. Men who know how to do this are rare heroes to women.

[amerikajin]

20 minutes ago, GorillaTheater said:

Oh no, not a chance. One of the things my wife and I got sorted out pretty early on is not to "supervise". "You don't like how I'm doing it? No problem, YOU do it." Both of us got over our need to critique one another's work pretty quickly.

I think this is the best approach, but I guess not all couples work that out.

[amerikajin]

17 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Yes. I think it's a small percentage of men who have these basic courtesies, and that makes them unicorns, basically.

I had an issue with a contractor yesterday and expressed my reaction to it. The guy is so obviously married and knows how to talk to women, because he explained why it happened, said there was no excuse for his mistake, apologized, and said he was going to go above and beyond to correct it. That's exactly what he did. So he took my sour feeling and turned it right around, made me want to reconsider my opinion of the company. Men who know how to do this are rare heroes to women.

"Doing it right" is not necessarily a gender issue, though. Men can be picky, too. I would agree, though, that when it comes to doing things around the house it often ends up being the women who are more demanding, owing to the fact that, traditionally, that's been "women's work."

Still, there are other issues beyond 'doing it right' and doing it 'the way I want it done' or the way 'it ought to be done.' I mean if someone is obviously being half-assed and doing something just as a passive-aggressive way to shut someone up to say "Okay, fine, I did it!" that's one thing. But what these issues represent are power struggles. They're struggles over turf. These are complex. I am obviously biased as a guy, but while I absolutely do think that husbands should absolutely pay more attention to what chores and tasks represent on an emotional level, the man's ego, contrary to what many think, does and should matter.

I agree that men probably *are* overly-sensitive to perceived nagging, but it's no fun when someone is always wrong and never living up to expectations. Sometimes doing something well enough should be just that: well enough.

[Ruby Slippers]

Again, it all goes back to compatibility. In a healthy relationship, the main expression of one's "power" is positive, pointed toward harmonious partnership - selfless, in other words, rather than selfish. 

[amerikajin]

5 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Again, it all goes back to compatibility. In a healthy relationship, the main expression of one's "power" is positive, pointed toward harmonious partnership - selfless, in other words, rather than selfish. 

I can't disagree with this, but these things don't always reveal themselves at first, and people change. People can become more or less compatible over time, and for a multitude of reasons. Both individuals have to show commitment to support and respect each other's feelings, and at the same time, both individuals have to accept that there will be some ways in which they are not now - never will be - compatible. I think what we're really talking about here is communication and a healthy degree of flexibility and willingness to adapt. That goes for both people, not just one. The perfectionist housekeeper has to accept that their partner might not have the same 360-degree view of that role that he/she does, and by that same token, the partner who's a bit more relaxed has to understand that people have rights to their own expectations, and they should try to meet them and remain aware of them.

[mark clemson]

1 hour ago, emprosnet7 said:

 Right from the start she said that I did not wash the dishes right and did not hang the cloths right.

I hear ya on this as well, and similarly to GT, we have a tacit (and sometimes explicit) agreement that "if you don't like what I made for dinner or how I fold the towels, you're welcome to do these things yourself". I'm over 45 and don't need to "learn how" to do dishes, fold towels etc. Level of perfectionism/being a neatnik IS ultimately a compatibility issue, as is the ability to make reasonable compromises to overcome differences.

[Zona]

I can only really go by what the studies have shown, and not by anecdotal reports that may or may not be typical. There is tons of research about marriage/divorce/infidelity/etc out there and many patterns and trends have become pretty clear and that is what I base my opinions on.

There is of course a lot of variation among men and among women about what behaviors and beliefs are deemed as acceptable. Huge differences in fact. That makes generalizations tricky.

[Zona]

Oh, and BTW I tend to focus on the behavior of women in relationships because I am a heterosexual male that is interested in relationships with women exclusively. I am not picking on women, nor do I think they are worse than men. Far from it. I think men and women are subject to many of the same destructive behaviors and moral failings. No gender is better than the other.

[Woggle]

5 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Believe me, she knows...

If she doesn't bring it up then that is on her. A man can't fix an issue if he doesn't know what it is. 

I am so glad that I am married to a woman who doesn't expect me to read her mind and hates drama as much as anybody else. She wants to come home and relax as much as most men. An idea night for us is both of us having a drink and putting on some music. She has a very male kind of approach to life which is maybe why this works so well.

With all due respect to Ruby Slippers what she describes sounds like the man just being a doormat and agreeing with he on everything. He can never defend himself or disagree or state his side of the story which will kill a woman's attraction real quick. That works for customer service but not relationships and even if it did I would rather be celibate for life than walk on eggshells to keep a marriage going.

[Acacia98]

On 8/27/2020 at 6:27 PM, emprosnet7 said:

That can go the other way, the man tells what is bugging him and she ignores the problems... 

Yes. I actually suggest as much in my post.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Acacia98
Correcting a typo

[Acacia98]

On 8/27/2020 at 6:32 PM, amerikajin said:

Indeed, a lot of guys don't want to listen. Maybe they just don't truly think that the issue is a big deal - at least not to them. I blame male conditioning to some degree. Women analyze things in terms of emotions and emotional needs, and they interpret behaviors as being representative of feelings, which men often do not.

A classic example would be repeatedly forgetting to do house chores. If a guy neglects to do house chores or even if they're not done as frequently or as thoroughly as she would like, she is likely to interpret this behavior as having an emotional meaning. 

In reality, the guy is probably thinking, "Okay, okay, I'll throw out the trash now instead of after the football game like I had planned to do (but didn't bother to tell you)." The guy thinks he has explained himself, but the woman feels even more pissed because a) your stupid beer, pizza, and football are more important to you than my feelings about this house, which, oh by the way, I work hard in an office full of sexist males to pay for just like you; b) you don't even have the courtesy to tell me what you were planning to do

True, this happens.

I've also noticed another tendency: the one where the man doesn't do the chore because he's being passive aggressive. It's power-play in some of these cases. I have relatives who do this. And, in their case, it's not a one-off. It's an attitude that carries over to other areas of their lives: basically doing only what they want and disregarding their spouses requests. The outcome is that the spouses end up doing much of the heavy lifting over time and become very resentful.