Women initiates the Divorce first

[Acacia98]

On 8/27/2020 at 6:44 PM, emprosnet7 said:

When ex and I got married, I was involved with the kid like feeding, bathing, changing dippers etc. Washing dishes and hanging laundry to dry.  Right from the start she said that I did not wash the dishes right and did not hang the cloths right. Suppose I didn't do it as well, I would improve with time right? So she told me that she would do it. Later on she would complain that I sit on the computer. Go figure.

Yeah... That's annoying. It's the surest way to make someone stop trying.

That kind of thing happens in emotionally abusive relationships, but I don't know if you would characterize yours that way.

[basil67]

1 hour ago, Acacia98 said:

Yeah... That's annoying. It's the surest way to make someone stop trying.

That kind of thing happens in emotionally abusive relationships, but I don't know if you would characterize yours that way.

That kind of thing also happens when somebody doesn't want to do the work so they deliberately fail.   Or if they are simply slap dash in approach.   Poorly washed plates are one thing, but a poorly cleaned baby's bottom will result in rash and discomfort for the little one.

Edited August 29, 2020 by basil67

[Acacia98]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

That kind of thing also happens when somebody doesn't want to do the work so they deliberately fail.   Or if they are simply slap dash in approach. Poorly washed plates are one thing, but a poorly cleaned baby's bottom will result in rash and discomfort for the little one.

If I understood him right, he listed a bunch of stuff he did (perhaps to show that he generally believes he should play an active role in housework?) then said that his performance in two out of all those chores was questioned: washing dishes and hanging clothes on the line. So the baby's bottom seems not to have been in danger.

[emprosnet7]

1 hour ago, Acacia98 said:

If I understood him right, he listed a bunch of stuff he did (perhaps to show that he generally believes he should play an active role in housework?) then said that his performance in two out of all those chores was questioned: washing dishes and hanging clothes on the line. So the baby's bottom seems not to have been in danger.

You are correct that is what I said. There was not an issue of "deliberately failing", I am talking about the very beginning. Why dipper changing, feeding, burping etc was fine the others were sooo bad? Hanging the clothes to dry, big deal. And it was not some kind of ideological think like "believes he should play an active role in housework", it was a practical one, getting some things done that had to be done.

[amerikajin]

It's true that some chores or tasks must be done right. If you're preparing a chicken dinner, having a spouse correct you on protecting the family against cross contamination is a little nagging we have to learn to live with - for everyone's benefit. But often it's a disagreement over a tolerable amount of clutter on a desk or whether to use a coupon or how to organize a kitchen cupboard - that s*** is not worth fighting over. Figure out how to agree to disagree, and as GorillaTheater mentioned earlier, if something is bothering one spouse and can't stand it, then they should just step in and do it and not say a word. I agree with Basil, though. There ought to be at least some obvious effort to compromise by both the nagger and the 'nag-ee'. Just doing something slapdash and saying "Okay, ya happy now?!" is just as much b.s. as the nagging was in the first place.

[basil67]

10 hours ago, emprosnet7 said:

You are correct that is what I said. There was not an issue of "deliberately failing", I am talking about the very beginning. Why dipper changing, feeding, burping etc was fine the others were sooo bad? Hanging the clothes to dry, big deal. And it was not some kind of ideological think like "believes he should play an active role in housework", it was a practical one, getting some things done that had to be done.

Sorry, I misread about the diaper.   And perhaps I also misunderstand when you say "big deal" about hanging clothes to dry.

Hanging clothes to dry does involve technique which protects the garment and reduces ironing effort.  Darks need to be hung inside out to minimise fading, stains (particularly poo and tomato stains) put facing the sun so that the UV will bleach them.  Shake the creases out of the garment and hang it so that peg marks aren't going into places where they will be hard to iron out.   Sweaters lie flat on a towel.  

Washing dishes - scrape the plates clean. Hot rinse or wipe to remove oil.   Hot water wash, starting with glassware and changing water if it gets too nasty. 

If you were doing all this, then she was being way too harsh on you.

Edited August 29, 2020 by basil67

[Mysterio]

Random thoughts.  

I always look for patterns in life.  Divorce and which gender initiates first/why there is a heavy 70% Divorce rate seems like this.  I look at my male friends and their SO.  

TD had to drive 14 hours long distance to see his GF for at least 5 ys.  She never did the same for him.  Even at the start, there was a little turbulence where I think she had another guy but straightened it out with TD.  They have one bio son and are not married.  If anything happens.  If she messes around on TD.  TD will go.

DB.  Met his wife SC on line in  October of 2003.  She was just Separated.  DB got his sister, a Lawyer to get SC divorced by April of 2004.  They moved in that time together.  They got married in Nov 2004.  I was the best man.  They had a child in 2005 and 2007.  Then in March of 2008.  SC went to DB and said that her feelings of love had vanished for him.  She wanted a clean break.  There is no counselling to work things out.  She was also taking Anti Depression meds as well.  DB did not know that.  So he had no choice.  SC then had another guy lined up who DB and I call Trucker.  Trucker and SC had twins in 2009.  Then she broke up with Trucker in 2010.  She does not really want to work.  Both DB/Trucker have to give money to her.  Right now.  SC is breaking up with guy # 5 who is well off and she has to find a new place to live.  

DT got back together with his ex gf CF in Feb 2013.  She introduced him to her kids in March of 2013 right away.  Even though they were just dating.  Somehow around November of 2014.  She managed to convince DT to have a bio kid with her.  Even though she was separated and moved him in around April of 2015 and they had a son in August of 2015.  He pays the mortgage/helps with the child rearing and they had another child in 2017,  which DT said was not planned.  CF is still just separated from her first husband and can't get divorced and the separation happened for SC in 2010.  I can't imagine myself in that situation.  Separated for 10 yrs and my former spouse has someone as well.  

These are the factors that I see happening with couples.  Its like there are some things that can't be worked out and the signs are all there.  For me.  At age 49.  If I want to have what I want as a stable love relationship.  I either have to be with a woman that is Single/Widowed/Divorced with out kids.  Or the same with Kids close to 20, for it to succeed.  Going back to DT for moment.  DT has no functional relationship with SC first son who is 18 now.  Never really did the son moved out to live with his dad.  

My point is that it seems like if we don't look at our lives and make proper moves.  Being a Divorce statistic will be imminent.  Divorce to me from what I have seen.  Its not like a clean split.   Its like a fight leaving scars.  I think in DB/SC case.  SC should have a least gone into counselling and pretended to try to work things out.  Then at the last minute say it was not going to work out.  That way she looks less vilified to the family.  

In each of my male friends cases.  It seems like the men just went out of their way to make things work and it was more on the woman's terms.  None of the women had to really compromise their worlds in any shape way or form.  Although TD's lady who is not his wife.  Only Common law.  She seemed to be the most stable.  

It comes off to me that some women are emotionally unstable and that the men ignore this.  When they do.  There is a Divorce time-bomb about to happen.  If DT's fiancee CF gets divorced if they get married.  Whats to stop her from getting divorced from DT in the future.  Even with the two bio kids they have.  DT is so wrapped up with his video games and electronics that I could see CF turning to another man if DT does not chill out from that.  

[mark clemson]

2 hours ago, Mysterio said:

My point is that it seems like if we don't look at our lives and make proper moves.  Being a Divorce statistic will be imminent.

I think the sad reality is that people change over time, and even if you DID "make all the right moves" in 20 years that may not count for much except memories of happier times. All it takes is for one of the 2 partners to decide they're truly done and it's over. That can happen for a wide variety of reasons.

The flip side is if neither ever decides they're truly done, a mediocre or even bad marriage can pretty much last forever. Contentment comes from within and I suspect that some % of folks out there are are just content enough to not feel the need to deal with getting out. Inertia.

[amerikajin]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

I think the sad reality is that people change over time, and even if you DID "make all the right moves" in 20 years that may not count for much except memories of happier times. All it takes is for one of the 2 partners to decide they're truly done and it's over. That can happen for a wide variety of reasons.

The flip side is if neither ever decides they're truly done, a mediocre or even bad marriage can pretty much last forever. Contentment comes from within and I suspect that some % of folks out there are are just content enough to not feel the need to deal with getting out. Inertia.

Solid post - I think you're correct on both points.

People do change over time. The key is whether or not both people can change together or otherwise tolerate and find ways to adapt to the change. Warren Buffet's wife got tired of living in his shadow. She decided to move out and become an activist, which he not only accepted but supported. Their marriage could have ended in divorce, but Warren Buffet allowed his wife to be herself and tried to be flexible with it. I think both husbands and wives are confronted with these kinds of decisions in marriages all over the land.

But you're also right about marriages lasting. I've known people that clearly weren't happy with other but wanted to be married for whatever reason.

[Zona]

On 8/27/2020 at 1:58 PM, Woggle said:

If she doesn't bring it up then that is on her. A man can't fix an issue if he doesn't know what it is. 

I am so glad that I am married to a woman who doesn't expect me to read her mind and hates drama as much as anybody else. She wants to come home and relax as much as most men. An idea night for us is both of us having a drink and putting on some music. She has a very male kind of approach to life which is maybe why this works so well.

With all due respect to Ruby Slippers what she describes sounds like the man just being a doormat and agreeing with he on everything. He can never defend himself or disagree or state his side of the story which will kill a woman's attraction real quick. That works for customer service but not relationships and even if it did I would rather be celibate for life than walk on eggshells to keep a marriage going.

I love your no-crap attitude about relationships. Younger dudes thinking of getting into the game could learn a lot from it. Since I got married 20 years ago, our culture has changed dramatically. Societal expectations and religious values have declined precipitously so base human instincts are becoming more of a driving factor without those filters. I think because of that you have to have a more take-no-prisoners attitude as a way to weed out people you are not really compatible with.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Zona

[Woggle]

6 hours ago, Zona said:

I love your no-crap attitude about relationships. Younger dudes thinking of getting into the game could learn a lot from it. Since I got married 20 years ago, our culture has changed dramatically. Societal expectations and religious values have declined precipitously so base human instincts are becoming more of a driving factor without those filters. I think because of that you have to have a more take-no-prisoners attitude as a way to weed out people you are not really compatible with.

People think it is bitterness but in reality I just think men should be aware. You don't have to be an incel or a red piller or whatever because there are many good women out there. A man just has to respect himself and demand respect from others. Men should just be aware of what is out there and realize that neither gender has the monopoly on morality and depravity. Also you should never beg a woman to love you. 

Going all out, wining and dining and pampering a woman is how you show your appreciation for a woman that treats you right. It is not how you make an attempt to please an ever disapproving queen so you can avoid the doghouse. It is not how you make a last ditch effort to please a woman who is convinced you are source of all her unhappiness. 

People can knock my approach all they but I have a happy marriage that is still in the honeymoon stage after 14 years so I am doing something right.

[basil67]

2 hours ago, Woggle said:

 A man just has to respect himself and demand respect from others.

For the record, one can't demand respect.   Respect is something which must be earned through behaviour   

Of course, that's just semantics.  My husband respects himself and others and so receives respect in return.  

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by basil67

[Woggle]

12 hours ago, basil67 said:

For the record, one can't demand respect.   Respect is something which must be earned through behaviour   

Of course, that's just semantics.  My husband respects himself and others and so receives respect in return.  

 

This is true but a requirement to stay in any relationship must be respect from the other person.

[Next Phase Legal]

Women are being independent . That can be a reason that women are approaching for divorce.

[basil67]

3 hours ago, Next Phase Legal said:

Women are being independent . That can be a reason that women are approaching for divorce.

Yes, independence is part of the equation.    But it's the reason they can leave, not the reason they do leave.

[DKT3]

Most of the stuff being said "can" be contributing factors but I believe the main reason is fear. Western Women have far less fear in divorce then men. Unless she is pretty much unfit as a mother she will get primary custody of children,  she will get to keep the home, and get a nice monthly payment on top of all that.

Few years back a WW posted about her affair,  talked about how she wanted to divorce long before but couldn't.  She didn't really go into why. About a year or so later she was back. Still married,  still having her affair but her focus was getting divorced.  Now we heard her reasons why. She was basically in the same position as most husband’s.  She was the primary earner,  her husband was the primary child care provider.  Fast forward more, her husband files.  In separation she had to leave the home, he maintained primary care and she had to pay the bulk of the bills.  The outrage of some of the female posters was actually funny.  Oh that's so unfair.  Welcome to the world of men ladies.  

I believe that's how many divorces happen. I sure in about half the cases were the women filed, the guy checked out but feared filing himself.  Instead choosing to bit down and hobble on. 

Edited September 2, 2020 by DKT3

[basil67]

6 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

Most of the stuff being said "can" be contributing factors but I believe the main reason is fear. Western Women have far less fear in divorce then men. Unless she is pretty much unfit as a mother she will get primary custody of children,  she will get to keep the home, and get a nice monthly payment on top of all that.

Perhaps this is the case where you live, but it's certainly not true for all western nations.   

Where I live - in a western nation - the best outcome for children is seen as 50/50 shared custody.  A woman doesn't automatically get to keep the house - rather the house is just one of the assets which is divided up in divorce courts.  Lastly, women don't get a nice monthly payment from the man.    

[DKT3]

14 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Perhaps this is the case where you live, but it's certainly not true for all western nations.   

Where I live - in a western nation - the best outcome for children is seen as 50/50 shared custody.  A woman doesn't automatically get to keep the house - rather the house is just one of the assets which is divided up in divorce courts.  Lastly, women don't get a nice monthly payment from the man.    

Well its clear you don't live in the US. Men here usually leave the home,  get kids on weekends and pay alimony and child support. 

Edited September 2, 2020 by DKT3

[basil67]

Of course, child support is for the child, not for the wife.   But here, child support depends on a calculation of income levels and time spent with each parent.   It's not a gendered decision where the man has to pay more than the woman.    

[Woggle]

With more and more women becoming breadwinners it would be wise of them to support alimony reform. Supporting a child I get but nobody should have to support another adult because a marriage didn't work out. My ex tried to get lifetime alimony after being married for a little over a year and thankfully the judge put a stop to that.

[mark clemson]

My pet theory is that in the past it was with some frequency a "full time homemaker" without any income. The states didn't need all these divorced women become essentially poverty-stricken and on welfare while the man kept "everything he'd earned." Too much of a burden on the rest of society. So they came up with laws that helped prevent that, such as a 50/50 law.

I think a 50/50 split can seem very unfair to the wage earner (male or female), especially with the ongoing burden of spousal support thrown in. "I earned all the money, what were you doing?" Of course, being left bereft of anything besides welfare wouldn't seem very fair to the non-wage-earner either, esp. if they were busy raising kids, which IS, by the way, quite a bit of work.

Nowadays there is at least a reasonable expectation that both spouses at least could work. At least one 50/50 state I'm familiar with looks at both incomes (assuming there is a second income) and calculates spousal support based on the difference.

[amerikajin]

14 hours ago, Woggle said:

With more and more women becoming breadwinners it would be wise of them to support alimony reform. Supporting a child I get but nobody should have to support another adult because a marriage didn't work out. My ex tried to get lifetime alimony after being married for a little over a year and thankfully the judge put a stop to that.

Alimony is often misunderstood. Just because someone asks for it doesn't mean that they get it. Judges follow a formula for calculating alimony. Indefinite alimony is increasingly rare because women can work now. You also have "bulldog" attorneys who b.s. their clients by promising them that they'll get everything when, as I said, the judge follows a formula, but the jilted spouse still pays those attorneys fees, which are hundreds of dollars by the hour. The best thing for both spouses in a divorce is to agree not to go to war with each other. It'll save both spouses money.

[amerikajin]

15 hours ago, DKT3 said:

Well its clear you don't live in the US. Men here usually leave the home,  get kids on weekends and pay alimony and child support. 

Are you saying they shouldn't pay child support? I mean, it's still their child, right? They'd be paying money anyway.

[Libby1]

On 8/25/2020 at 7:23 AM, Wiseman2 said:

When women get tired of talking to a wall or the back of your head, they'll start talking to a lawyer. By the time she's in the attorney's office, she's done.

Not always.  I've a background in family law. Now and again I'd see female clients who felt like they'd reached the end of their tether...but then broke down crying and expressed uncertainty when it came to the question of "has your marriage broken down irretrievably?"  Sometimes, just sometimes, a tentative visit to a family lawyer's office and exploring the issue of whether the marriage has broken down irretrievably  will help a person to decide "I'm not happy with the way my marriage is, but I'm not entirely certain that things are broken beyond repair.  I'd like to at least try to salvage things through counselling." 

There are people out there living with partners who may have taken advice from a lawyer about divorce last week, last month or 10 years ago.  A visit to a family lawyer's office doesn't bind a person to take the drastic step of raising divorce proceedings and there isn't any obligation on them to tell their partner "I visited a lawyer and took advice about a divorce."  More than once, however, I've sent a spouse a letter (only when instructed to do so) noting that their partner is unhappy and considering a separation, but would like to try marital counselling.  A letter like that can be a wake up call that, if it transpires that the marriage is just going through a rocky patch and can be salvaged, a stonewalling spouse might one day be glad to have received.

 

 

[Woggle]

The only thing that make some women regret a divorce is if their ex is thriving and living well without her. It does sort of hurt their ego a little bit when he isn't a broken shell of a man after the divorce. When he has truly severed that emotional bond from his end they tend to notice. It's even worse if his dating life is going well.