Is there any scenario where pursuing a good friend can work out?

[Inflikted]

So, I've known and been good friends with this girl for about four years. She's been in a relationship for five years. Over the last couple years, I met and became buddies with the guy she's been with, and the three of us have been a little hangout group. I was never "pining away" or "hoping for an opportunity" with her or anything like that; I was happy being friends with them, and I expected they were going to be together forever. Last year about this time, she vented to me about some issues they were having, and she told me she was considering ending things with him. I developed something of an infatuation with her then, but I put it away kinda quickly, because they seemed fine after the fact. She never really vented to me about stuff anymore after that; in fact, she kinda started "fading into the background" of our three person hangouts for the last year or so. A couple weeks ago, they reached out to me and let me know they had ended their relationship, and he would be moving out of state (he just left recently).

I was very shocked at first, but then my infatuation that I'd buried returned, and I've been struggling with it ever since. Most likely, I won't ever pursue it if doing so would mean losing the friendship (and obviously if I did, I wouldn't do it any time soon, as I know people need sufficient time to move on); I value what we have too much to just throw it away. But, I dunno. I really like her, and I think we have a good connection, though I know the nature of the situation is a bit... awkward, too.

The thing is, it's so hard to tell what she really thinks of me. She's always been friendly with guys (though she's super loyal and isn't the type to cheat), although I feel like she's always had a particular attachment to me. Like, after her ex, I feel like I was the #2 guy friend in her life. There have been some others, but I seem to be the only one she's wanted to spend time with regularly, and she's invited me to some things with her family that she wasn't inviting others to (including an upcoming event in a few weeks). There have been times where she's said and done things that made me wonder if she could ever be attracted to me if she were single, though on the flip side, there were things that made me think not, as well. She seems "cool" enough where, if I approached it the right way, we could probably have a discussion and not lose the friendship, but at the same time, if I'm so far into "just a friend" territory in her head, then maybe it would indeed be so jarring to her that she just couldn't be friends with me anymore. I really don't know.

Anyway, like I said, I know I probably shouldn't ever pursue it, and that's fine, I guess. I'm just curious, is there any scenario where this could possibly work out? Or even any scenario where I could eventually try to have this discussion without losing her as a friend?

[schlumpy]

After five years she probably wants to test the waters. I think you are involved in too many memories with her ex to make a successful try at being a couple. Five years of learned behavior do not flip overnight.

If there was a space of time between you two say three to five years, then there is a chance because the old memories have faded and that gives you an opportunity to make a different impression.

If you decide to press it now be prepared to blow your friendship out of the water.

If you want her to see you in a different light ask for dating help. She must know women you can date. Let her set you up and see what her reaction is. 

 

[Inflikted]

1 hour ago, schlumpy said:

If you decide to press it now be prepared to blow your friendship out of the water.

"Now" as in "right now", or "now" as in "ever"? I mean, yeah, I wouldn't think of trying to say or do anything any time soon, as I know people generally need time to readjust to life after getting out of a lengthy relationship.

1 hour ago, schlumpy said:

After five years she probably wants to test the waters. I think you are involved in too many memories with her ex to make a successful try at being a couple. Five years of learned behavior do not flip overnight.

If there was a space of time between you two say three to five years, then there is a chance because the old memories have faded and that gives you an opportunity to make a different impression.

Yeah, that's the thing I think will probably make it difficult to even float the idea, is that I had a solid relationship with her ex. Even then, though, he's out of the picture now, she knows I have more "loyalty" to her than to him, and from what I can tell, she almost seems to want to just not even think or talk about him right now.

I'm somewhat perplexed by the dynamic of my friendship with her, because we were pretty close for the first three years, then over this last year, it kinda feels like she stepped back a bit while me and him were being friendly. But she still seems pretty attached me to me, and going by discussions we've had recently, she still very much wants me around in her life.

Like I said, there are some things in the past that stick out to me that always made me wonder if perhaps she sees me as a possibility, but I don't know if that would be reading too much into things or not.

[Happy Lemming]

Describe the guy she just broke up with... (the one that just moved away)

How tall was he?? 

Was he muscular/strong??

Was he confident??

Did he have a good career path?? Was he making a living wage??

Did he have an outgoing personality?? 

Did he plan nice dates/activities for the two of them??

What was his personality like??

[Inflikted]

2 hours ago, Happy Lemming said:

Describe the guy she just broke up with... (the one that just moved away)

How tall was he?? 

Was he muscular/strong??

Was he confident??

Did he have a good career path?? Was he making a living wage??

Did he have an outgoing personality?? 

Did he plan nice dates/activities for the two of them??

What was his personality like??

Honestly, I feel like he and I were kinda similar in a lot of ways. Actually, I always felt like I was similar to both of them in a lot of ways, and that that's why they both kinda liked me, because I sorta reminded them of each other in some way.

He's a bit taller than me, though he's chubby, more so than me. In a way, I kinda resemble him a little, though on a smaller, lighter frame.

He had a "job" (as in, not something I'd necessarily describe as a career), though I don't know what his career prospects were for it. He was only making a couple dollars more than me, though. I don't know their financials, but honestly, I'd bet I probably have more in my savings account than they did, as for a future house and stuff.

I'm trying to think of the right way to describe his personality. I mean, I wouldn't really describe him as particularly "outgoing" or "social", except around his friends. "Confident" is a tricky word; in a "I don't really give a ****" kind of way, I guess?

He and I have similar personalities and sense of humor, though he sometimes has a tendency to push buttons a little too much and not have the awareness that he's drifting into "being a jerk" territory.

From the times I hung out with them and her family, he always seemed a bit detached from them. I got the vibe that he didn't like her parents much, and there were times in private where it was just the three of us where he'd crack jokes about them and she didn't care much for that.

He was a bit overindulgent on recreational drugs, and while that didn't necessarily bother her, I think she wanted him to work on quitting, and he never really did.

I don't know how "active" they were with doing stuff; they'd tell me about some stuff every now and then, but it never sounded like much. One thing I learned after the breakup was that he often wanted to do outdoorsy stuff, but she didn't enjoy that kinda thing very much and was more of a homebody.

I think she also really wanted him to commit and be on board with getting married and starting a family soon, and while he seemed to want that, he wanted to keep pushing it back and pushing it back for several more years.

So, yeah. That's pretty much everything I can think of. I'm curious why you ask?

[Happy Lemming]

11 hours ago, Inflikted said:

 I'm curious why you ask?

I was trying to figure out "her type"...  What type of guy does she enjoy dating/living with, etc.??

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by Happy Lemming
spelling

[Inflikted]

2 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

I was trying to figure out "her type"...  What type of guy does she enjoy dating/living with, etc.??

 

I'm trying to think of a way to say this that doesn't reflect negatively on her to an unbiased third party, because knowing her as I do, I don't see her this way, but I'm not entirely sure she has a "type", per se. From what she's told me in the past, she went through a phase in her younger days of having a lot of "fun". Which, again, I don't judge her critically on, and I don't think anyone else should, in my opinion. But, in kinda sounds like her tastes are at least somewhat varied.

I've actually met a couple of other guys she's been involved with; one was the guy she was last in a relationship before the current guy that she remained friendly with, and he had helped her get the job she and I worked together at. He and I didn't technically "work together", but we worked in the same chain, and I was familiar with him. He was a nice dude, though a little vanilla.

The one that always surprises me, though, is that, years before I knew her, she was dating this guy that I worked with at my first job. I'd never met her, because he and I didn't really hang out outside of work, so it kinda blew my mind when she told me later that she had dated him. He was a solid dude, although kind of a weirdo.

So, yeah, I dunno. I'm not so sure what her "type" really is, and I don't know that I'd be able to properly know, given that I've only ever known her while she's been in a relationship with her now ex. But, I mean, have you discerned anything, on your end from anything I've said?

[Happy Lemming]

8 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

 But, I mean, have you discerned anything, on your end from anything I've said?

Not really... some women have a type.

For instance... Years ago, I dated this beautiful Latina woman, although she was 4' 10", she would only date guys 6' or taller.  She never dated anyone overweight or chubby (or so she said).  I also got the impression she was a bit of an adrenaline junkie, she loved speed and enjoyed being on the back of my motorcycle.  So I'm guessing her type was tall, lean and adventurous.

[Inflikted]

9 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

Not really... some women have a type.

Ah. Well, I wish I could've provided some more insightful information. It's tough not to be curious, yanno?

[Azincourt]

20 hours ago, Inflikted said:

So, I've known and been good friends with this girl for about four years. She's been in a relationship for five years. Over the last couple years, I met and became buddies with the guy she's been with, and the three of us have been a little hangout group. I was never "pining away" or "hoping for an opportunity" with her or anything like that; I was happy being friends with them, and I expected they were going to be together forever. Last year about this time, she vented to me about some issues they were having, and she told me she was considering ending things with him. I developed something of an infatuation with her then, but I put it away kinda quickly, because they seemed fine after the fact. She never really vented to me about stuff anymore after that; in fact, she kinda started "fading into the background" of our three person hangouts for the last year or so. A couple weeks ago, they reached out to me and let me know they had ended their relationship, and he would be moving out of state (he just left recently).

I was very shocked at first, but then my infatuation that I'd buried returned, and I've been struggling with it ever since. Most likely, I won't ever pursue it if doing so would mean losing the friendship (and obviously if I did, I wouldn't do it any time soon, as I know people need sufficient time to move on); I value what we have too much to just throw it away. But, I dunno. I really like her, and I think we have a good connection, though I know the nature of the situation is a bit... awkward, too.

The thing is, it's so hard to tell what she really thinks of me. She's always been friendly with guys (though she's super loyal and isn't the type to cheat), although I feel like she's always had a particular attachment to me. Like, after her ex, I feel like I was the #2 guy friend in her life. There have been some others, but I seem to be the only one she's wanted to spend time with regularly, and she's invited me to some things with her family that she wasn't inviting others to (including an upcoming event in a few weeks). There have been times where she's said and done things that made me wonder if she could ever be attracted to me if she were single, though on the flip side, there were things that made me think not, as well. She seems "cool" enough where, if I approached it the right way, we could probably have a discussion and not lose the friendship, but at the same time, if I'm so far into "just a friend" territory in her head, then maybe it would indeed be so jarring to her that she just couldn't be friends with me anymore. I really don't know.

Anyway, like I said, I know I probably shouldn't ever pursue it, and that's fine, I guess. I'm just curious, is there any scenario where this could possibly work out? Or even any scenario where I could eventually try to have this discussion without losing her as a friend?

Buddy, if she was interested in you she would've had made it clear to you years ago, or she would have developed feelings for you recently and made it crystal clear to you that she wants to leave her boyfriend for you. When it's time to jump the ship, most people won't make bones about it.

If a woman confides  in you the problems she has with men, it's because she sees you as a little brother. She has no sexual feelings for you, or romantic feelings either. 

You're suffering from a case of lack of exposure to women. Meet dozens of women. Hundreds of women. Thousands of women. Stop spending so much of your time on someone else's girlfriend,  come on. Stop being her personal therapist. If this woman was just a friend, sure go ahead, listen to her complain about her boyfriend all you want, but you want to date this woman. What are you getting out of this situation?

Nothing.

Meet new women. Eventually you'll come across a woman you see yourself wanting to date, and she will want to date you back, don't waste your life away on a woman that you have no chance of ever being with, sexually, romantically.

Edited September 6, 2020 by Azincourt

[Inflikted]

6 minutes ago, Azincourt said:

Buddy, if she was interested in you she would've had made it clear to you years ago, or she would have developed feelings for you recently and made it crystal clear to you that she wants to leave her boyfriend for you. When it's time to jump the ship, most people won't make bones about it.

Yeah, but I mean... We're not, like, in high school, so it's not like people just drop someone they're with to be with someone new because of bubbly feelings. And if they're still doing that at our age, I'm not so sure that's the kind of person I'd want to be with, anyway. In general, I think if you're in a relationship and you're trying to make it work, that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone else is "friend zoned" per se, but loyal people will continue trying to make their relationship work (at least until it gets to the point where it no longer does) rather than just jump ship to a new option.

9 minutes ago, Azincourt said:

If a woman confides  in you the problems she has with men, it's because she sees you as a little brother. She has no sexual feelings for you, or romantic feelings either. 

Yeah, I get that. Though, honestly, that dynamic hasn't existed for me and her for a long time, now. It's been probably over a year since she vented to me about relationship problems or anything like that. Not to say that I think that means anything, of course. But I don't feel like she's been "confiding" much of anything in me for a long time, now. I'm not really sure what changed, there.

10 minutes ago, Azincourt said:

Meet new women. Eventually you'll come across a woman you see yourself wanting to date, and she will want to date you back, don't waste your life away on a woman that you have no chance of ever being with, sexually, romantically.

Heh. I wish. I met plenty of women back in my younger years, but I just couldn't ever find any kind of romantic connection with any of them. Now it feels harder than ever to meet new people. I do know that I have a tendency to get infatuated with people I do develop a good bond with, which is unfortunate for my romantic prospects. At this point, I don't really see myself meeting someone or ending up with someone. Which, it is what it is, I guess. I just wish stories like me and this friend of mine ever really worked out, as it's kind of nice to think that she and I could find that happiness together. But, yeah, I mean, I get it.

[Azincourt]

 

19 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

Yeah, but I mean... We're not, like, in high school, so it's not like people just drop someone they're with to be with someone new because of bubbly feelings. And if they're still doing that at our age, I'm not so sure that's the kind of person I'd want to be with, anyway. In general, I think if you're in a relationship and you're trying to make it work, that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone else is "friend zoned" per se, but loyal people will continue trying to make their relationship work (at least until it gets to the point where it no longer does) rather than just jump ship to a new option.

Grew up with this friend, at one point I realized I started getting jealous of the men she was dating, figured she wasn't into me the way I was into her, so what I did was I picked myself up ,start hitting every nightclub in our city,  and eventually I met someone I got really into and who was also attracted to me.

Until I came upon this person I completely dropped out of my friend's life. She's my friend. Not my mother. Not my wife. I don't owe her anything. I stopped taking her calls, when she'd start nagging me with her text messages I'd tell her that I was too busy working when I was actually hitting on on dozens, hundreds of women and seeing what would come out of it, or not.

Nah, it doesn't matter.  The women I've met who wanted to be with me, either dropped their boyfriends to be with me,  or they wanted to cheat on their boyfriends with me. Which, I never took them on their offer because you never know how crazy a guy can be and I ain't getting shot or stabbed over a woman.

If your friend really wanted to be with you she wouldn't be trying to fix things over with her boyfriend. She'd simply drop out. Bye, bye. Life's too short to waste one a failed relationship, and believe me, people will quickly discard their relationships when they feel they've found a better man  a better woman for them.

 

Quote

Yeah, I get that. Though, honestly, that dynamic hasn't existed for me and her for a long time, now. It's been probably over a year since she vented to me about relationship problems or anything like that. Not to say that I think that means anything, of course. But I don't feel like she's been "confiding" much of anything in me for a long time, now. I'm not really sure what changed, there.jHeh. I wish. I met plenty of women back in my younger years, but I just couldn't ever find any kind of romantic connection with any of them. Now it feels harder than ever to meet new people. I do know that I have a tendency to get infatuated with people I do develop a good bond with, which is unfortunate for my romantic prospects. At this point, I don't really see myself meeting someone or ending up with someone. Which, it is what it is, I guess. I just wish stories like me and this friend of mine ever really worked out, as it's kind of nice to think that she and I could find that happiness together. But, yeah, I mean, I get it.

What do you mean you couldn't ever find any kind of romantic connection with any of them?

How many women are we talking here?

5? 10? 50? 100?

How many women have you met? How many women have you approached? How many times have you acted upon the signals and the interest women were sending your way?

The more women you meet, the more chances you have of meeting women who want to be with you.

I'm a bartender. I come across hundreds ,thousands of attractive women per night. Tens of thousands per month. I've been rejected by tens of thousands of women, and still I never let that be an obstacle between finding for myself what I want out of life. Persistence, drive, and meeting as many women as you possibly can will eventually lead to a romantic relationship with someone you desire, and whom desires you back.

Jesus, man, you don't live in a tiny village in India with only 20 women for you to ever meet, and 18 of them are married  already, and 2 are women who are 60 years older than you. There's literally billions of women out there in the world .Don't sell yourself short, and don't let rejection make you feel like you're unwanted. No one's perfect, and there's someone for everyone out there.

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by Azincourt

[Happy Lemming]

8 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

Now it feels harder than ever to meet new people....

Of course its going to be harder... The natural progression of dating starts with High School dances, then taking out that little red-headed girl (from your English Class) to the movies when you are 14 or 15. Then you start learning more things about dating and the learning process progresses.  You learn what is a good date and what is a bad one, what to say and what not to say, etc.  Most guys have dating down pat in a few years and have perfected it in their late teens/early twenties.  You did none of this. 

By isolating yourself for your teens, twenties and beginning of your thirties, you have hampered your development into an adult that has learned how ask a woman out, how to date, and how to advance a dating situation into a relationship. 

Present pandemic aside... the longer you wait the steeper the learning curve and the stronger the possibility that you will never date/have sex.

[Azincourt]

Bro, the best time to being a man is when you're 18-22 and you're in college. If you play it smart and you go to a liberals Arts college, instead of going to a STEM college like many guys end up doing, you'll realize that these colleges where they teach bachelors degrees like Art History, Jounalism, Political Science, Geography etc are choke-full of women, and not only is the majority of the student body female, but the majority of them are conventionally attractive.

These women are looking to date. They want to hook-up. They want a boyfriend .They want a guy to start a life with. They're too busy to meet guys  because they're going to college and they're working a part-time job, or they can't find any guy because those guys are already in a relationship, so what they do is to date the men they meet in college, and in many times these men are nothing special to look at, but when there's like 10 women who are single looking for a boyfriend for every 1 guy who is single, yeah, like shooting fish in a barrel.

Most women pair-up at the age of 25-30. You can wait it out for them to go through their starter marriage, as they tend to get divorced in their late 30s, early 40s, but then you'll probably have to deal with their children and they will want something serious.

Either way,  asking a woman out is no big deal, man. Just go up to a woman you find to be attractive, start small talk, and then be funny. If they laugh and engage you, that's your cue to flirt with them. If they flirt back, great. Ask for their number, or just give them yours like I tend to do, as to not add pressure to it.

You repeat this process over and over, dozens of times, hundreds of times, thousands of times, until you get the desired results.

Does it sound like a whole lotta work?

Sure it does.

But do you think Arnold Schwarzenegger came out of his mother's womb looking like Heracles?

It's basically demand and supply economics. Women tend to be picky when they have a lot of options, and so do men. If you move to a city where there's  a lot of say, gay men, like in San Francisco, you'll have a field day with women.  When there's a lot more women living in a community than there are men, not only are the standards those women have in men are going to be a lot lower than the standards women in Hollywood Hills have for the men they date, but you'll have lots of women to meet, and to date.

Edited September 6, 2020 by Azincourt

[Inflikted]

4 minutes ago, Azincourt said:

If your friend really wanted to be with you she wouldn't be trying to fix things over with her boyfriend. She'd simply drop out. Bye, bye. Life's too short to waste one a failed relationship, and believe me, people will quickly discard their relationships when they feel they've found a better man  a better woman for them.

Eh. Again, speaking generally (not specifically of my friend's situation), I just don't know that I agree with that. In your late teens, and early to mid 20s, sure, people are flighty, and they'll jump ship at the drop of a hat. But I imagine that, when you get older and want to start settling down and building a life with someone, love and familiarity make someone more willing to try to make a relationship work rather than just hopping around to someone new. Granted, if you're speaking mainly of people still involved in the bar scene, then sure, I guess there's probably a lot of flighty people around there.

As for my friend, I think love and familiarity drove her to try to make things work for as long as they tried to. Honestly, they apparently had reoccurring problems around the same time every year for at least the last three, and I think she wanted it to work because they had already been building something, but it finally just got to a point where it was no longer working, and she felt she needed to end it. Now, whether or not she's ever seen me as a potential option in the periphery, I have no idea. I'm just saying, in general, I don't believe "most" people are prone to just hopping around to new people willy nilly instead of trying to put in effort to make their relationships work.

12 minutes ago, Azincourt said:

What do you mean you couldn't ever find any kind of romantic connection with any of them?

How many women are we talking here?

5? 10? 50? 100?

How many women have you met? How many women have you approached? How many times have you acted upon the signals and the interest women were sending your way?

Back in my early 20s, I was in college for several years. I also spent my entire 20s working retail/ service jobs that forced me to work with the general public. I couldn't even fathom a guess at an actual number. I came across lots of different people, plenty of women, and more than enough opportunity to meet someone. But, I never "hit it off" with anyone like that. There was never a time where I came across someone who I felt was being flirty with me. Every interaction I've had with women has generally always been mutually "platonic". There just isn't ever anything there between me and a particular girl.

6 minutes ago, Azincourt said:

Most women pair-up at the age of 25-30.

Yeah, I know. I'm unfortunately now shifting out of that age range, so I recognize that it's now "too late" for me.

7 minutes ago, Azincourt said:

Either way,  asking a woman out is no big deal, man. Just go up to a woman you find to be attractive, start small talk, and then be funny. If they laugh and engage you, that's your cue to flirt with them. If they flirt back, great. Ask for their number, or just give them yours like I tend to do, as to not add pressure to it.

Does it sound like a whole lotta work?

Well, it's just never worked that way for me, unfortunately. I've never been the type that spots a "cute girl" somewhere that I want to go talk to. I tend to develop attraction based on developed bonds and familiarity. Which, I know, that doesn't actually work in the real world. I get it. And I don't like that that's how it happens for me. But it's not a matter of "not wanting to do the work", it's not about "being too scared to go up to a girl", or anything like that. I just can't get myself to develop attraction the way most people do, and fun flirty interactions just aren't a thing that happens between me and a given woman.

20 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

Of course its going to be harder... The natural progression of dating starts with High School dances, then taking out that little red-headed girl (from your English Class) to the movies when you are 14 or 15. Then you start learning more things about dating and the learning process progresses.  You learn what is a good date and what is a bad one, what to say and what not to say, etc.  Most guys have dating down pat in a few years and have perfected it in their late teens/early twenties.  You did none of this. 

By isolating yourself for your teens, twenties and beginning of your thirties, you have hampered your development into an adult that has learned how ask a woman out, how to date, and how to advance a dating situation into a relationship. 

Present pandemic aside... the longer you wait the steeper the learning curve and the stronger the possibility that you will never date/have sex.

Yeah, I know. Trust me, I don't blame anyone but myself for it being "too late" for me. It just really sucks, is all.

[Happy Lemming]

12 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

Yeah, I know. Trust me, I don't blame anyone but myself for it being "too late" for me. It just really sucks, is all.

Continuing with the above statement...

Prior to the pandemic, why didn't you take any of the advice you received on this forum and attempt to go out and meet people.  A LOT of posters gave you suggestions on how to take the first steps to learning to be social and how to talk/chit-chat with other humans.  You came up with every excuse in the book as to why you couldn't try any of it.

Instead of accepting blame for your mistakes, can you tell us why you never even tried anything suggested??

[Azincourt]

11 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

Eh. Again, speaking generally (not specifically of my friend's situation), I just don't know that I agree with that. In your late teens, and early to mid 20s, sure, people are flighty, and they'll jump ship at the drop of a hat. But I imagine that, when you get older and want to start settling down and building a life with someone, love and familiarity make someone more willing to try to make a relationship work rather than just hopping around to someone new. Granted, if you're speaking mainly of people still involved in the bar scene, then sure, I guess there's probably a lot of flighty people around there.

People stop jumping ship quick only when they're in a situation that legally binds them to behave otherwise. Is your friend married to that guy? is she living with him? Co-habitating for 2 years or more? because if so, then they are legally married in the eyes of the state, and yes, I give you that, it would make her drop him and exit the relationship a fair share more complicated, and what I'm talking about isn't just restricted to people who are 18-25, but it can also be applied to people who are in their 30s, 40s, 50s etc.

 

11 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

As for my friend, I think love and familiarity drove her to try to make things work for as long as they tried to. Honestly, they apparently had reoccurring problems around the same time every year for at least the last three, and I think she wanted it to work because they had already been building something, but it finally just got to a point where it was no longer working, and she felt she needed to end it. Now, whether or not she's ever seen me as a potential option in the periphery, I have no idea. I'm just saying, in general, I don't believe "most" people are prone to just hopping around to new people willy nilly instead of trying to put in effort to make their relationships work.

There you go.  She puts in so much work to make the relationship work, because she loves him. This means that even if the relationship she has with the fella breaks down and ends, she's going to be a long while mourning the loss of the relationship, and you don't want to be the guy who sticks with her and then makes his romantic intentions clear when she's emotionally vulnerable, or when she gets over this guy and gets with another guy.

 

11 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

Back in my early 20s, I was in college for several years. I also spent my entire 20s working retail/ service jobs that forced me to work with the general public. I couldn't even fathom a guess at an actual number. I came across lots of different people, plenty of women, and more than enough opportunity to meet someone. But, I never "hit it off" with anyone like that. There was never a time where I came across someone who I felt was being flirty with me. Every interaction I've had with women has generally always been mutually "platonic". There just isn't ever anything there between me and a particular girl.

What do you mean hit it off?

Do you mean you never felt a physical attraction for someone, or a physical attraction wasn't felt by the two of you for each other at the same time, or there was a physical desire you two had for each, but a romantic relationship just didn't pan out, didn't even the chance to even start because of situations and life circumstances? 

Listen, there are three types of women.

A) She will approach you and plain-out tell you in words she wants to have sex with you, despite not knowing you from Adam's Apple, because she has a high sex drive/hasn't had sex in a while, and she's from a culture where women aren't shamed over having a high number of sex partners, and aren't rejected or treated badly because they are ''easy'' and no ''man'' respects a woman who makes it easy for him.

Brazilians, Argentinians, South Africans, Angolans, Italians, Spaniards, Swedes, Norwegians, even the Middle-Eastern women who were born and raised in Europe or in the States by parents who aren't religious can find themselves doing what I just said,  and no, a man doesn't need to look like a 30 year old Brad Pitt, or like Cristiano Ronaldo.

B) She wants you to approach you and she is crystal clear about it.  She stares at you. She smiles at you. She looks at you from the top of your head down to your feet and then up again always with a smile on her lips. She touches and she plays with her hair while staring at your eyes, or at any part of you. She bites her lips as she's staring at your lips. She puts herself in a position that would make it easy for you to start taking to her if you were interested in her, like sitting in front of you on the subway when there's  10000 free seats for her to pick from.

There are a lot of signals women send when they are interested in a guy, and it's up to the guy to notice them and to make something about it if he's interested in the woman.

C) You and she have friends in common and she asks the people you both know to introduce you to her.

A-type women are rare. Most women are type B. And there's plenty of women who are type C.

Not now, of course, because there's a worlwide crisis going on, but after this is dealt with, go out and about.  Go to the beach, go the bokstores, go to grocery stores, go to supermarkets, go to music festivals: go to places where tons of attractive women aggregate to either socialize with each other, to enjoy a good time listening to music, or to meet men.

I'm sure there's been plenty of women who've been attracted to you, it's just that you never noticed it because you're shy or beacuse you felt a woman like that or like that other one could never  be interested in you.

 

11 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

Yeah, I know. I'm unfortunately now shifting out of that age range, so I recognize that it's now "too late" for me.

Well, it's just never worked that way for me, unfortunately. I've never been the type that spots a "cute girl" somewhere that I want to go talk to. I tend to develop attraction based on developed bonds and familiarity. Which, I know, that doesn't actually work in the real world. I get it. And I don't like that that's how it happens for me. But it's not a matter of "not wanting to do the work", it's not about "being too scared to go up to a girl", or anything like that. I just can't get myself to develop attraction the way most people do, and fun flirty interactions just aren't a thing that happens between me and a given woman.

Yeah, I know. Trust me, I don't blame anyone but myself for it being "too late" for me. It just really sucks, is all.

Nah, it's never too late. You're in your 30s for christ's sake, you're not a 50 year old man creeping up on 18-30 year old women. There's still plenty of time for you to mee women who are single, and women who've gotten out of their relationship/marriage recently and are looking to meet men, and you have plenty of time to have the love life that you want to have.

AS LONG as you make an effort and put yourself out there and you risk rejection.

First few times it might sting a guy's ego, but after a few hundred rejections you shrug that off like you're Superman shrugging off bullets.

What do you mean you can't get yourself to develop attraction the same way most people do? 

How do you develop attraction for someone?

What do you expect out of an interaction with a woman? It doesn't have to lead to a number,  or to a date, many times just chatting a woman up because you're at the dentist's waiting for your turn  is a great way to develop your social skills.

[nospam99]

@HL. Inflikted hasn't tried suggestions to meet women for the same reason he hasn't tried suggestions to improve his career or to get his own place .... because he ASSUMED the suggestions wouldn't work - self-fulfilling prophecies.

A quote from my high school coach about trying and failing that I've probably shared previously: ''Aim for the stars. You won't reach them, but you'll land pretty high.'' Footnote: The man was an Olympic bobsledder.

Edited September 6, 2020 by nospam99

[Inflikted]

33 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

Instead of accepting blame for your mistakes, can you tell us why you never even tried anything suggested??

As far as going out and finding social activities to participate in that I could potentially meet people through, I'm very much driven by "want". It was never about rejecting ideas of "Go to this place, try this activity, etc." just because. I wouldn't even call it "rejection" on my part. It's more akin to apathy. I'd be more driven to go to a place or do an activity if it were a place/ activity I WANTED to pursue. And there's much in the way of things that drive that interest in me. I'm a homebody by nature. And yes, of course, I realize that you can't meet people by being a homebody. But I'm not really going to go out to a place or try out some activity unless those are things I WANT to do.

31 minutes ago, Azincourt said:

People stop jumping ship quick only when they're in a situation that legally binds them to behave otherwise. Is your friend married to that guy? is she living with him? Co-habitating for 2 years or more?

In this case, yes, she'd been living with him for 4 or so years (they weren't married).

32 minutes ago, Azincourt said:

There you go.  She puts in so much work to make the relationship work, because she loves him. This means that even if the relationship she has with the fella breaks down and ends, she's going to be a long while mourning the loss of the relationship, and you don't want to be the guy who sticks with her and then makes his romantic intentions clear when she's emotionally vulnerable, or when she gets over this guy and gets with another guy.

I mean, for clarification, if it weren't clear, she did end the relationship with him recently. My point was just that, from what I've seen of the world, I don't get the sense that people are THAT flighty once they're in a relationship. Yes, some people are, often people of a certain demographic, I'm just saying that I think when someone is in a relationship that they're hoping works out, they're more likely to try to put in the effort to make it work until it gets to a point where they feel it no longer makes sense to, rather than just drop that person so they can chase after something new and shiny.

Again, I can't really speculate on whether this girl, in particular, may ever consider me as an option, but in general, I don't necessarily buy into the idea of a rigid, black and white "friend zone", nor do I think "If a girl really likes a new guy she knows, she'll drop her current boyfriend like a bad habit to be with him". But, that's just me.

40 minutes ago, Azincourt said:

What do you mean hit it off?

Do you mean you never felt a physical attraction for someone, or a physical attraction wasn't felt by the two of you for each other at the same time, or there was a physical desire you two had for each, but a romantic relationship just didn't pan out, didn't even the chance to even start because of situations and life circumstances?

In general, I'm not driven by physical attraction. I can't recall a single time I spotted some random girl and felt physically attracted. That's just not a thing that's ever happened for me.

I've also never once encountered a girl that behaved in a way that indicated she was interested in me in more than a platonic way. No flirting, no playful glances or smiles or whatever, no special attention. That's just never happened with any women I've met.

45 minutes ago, Azincourt said:

I'm sure there's been plenty of women who've been attracted to you, it's just that you never noticed it because you're shy or beacuse you felt a woman like that or like that other one could never  be interested in you.

Honestly, I don't consider myself "shy", just very reserved and introverted. I feel like, if I had ever encountered someone who was attracted to me, I'm sure I'd know it, because I'd be able to pick up on the "special attention". Everyone generally treats me the same. If someone were treating me differently, that would very much stand out to me.

48 minutes ago, Azincourt said:

Nah, it's never too late. You're in your 30s for christ's sake, you're not a 50 year old man creeping up on 18-30 year old women. There's still plenty of time for you to mee women who are single, and women who've gotten out of their relationship/marriage recently and are looking to meet men, and you have plenty of time to have the love life that you want to have.

Well, let me clarify, when I say "too late", I mean "too late to start". If I'd dated earlier and/ or been in a relationship or two but had just been "out of the scene" for a while, then sure, I would agree that it's not "too late". But at this point, I'm in my early 30s, and I've never even had a flirty interaction with a girl. Let alone anything else. If I haven't been able to get started by now, odds are, I'm never going to.

51 minutes ago, Azincourt said:

What do you mean you can't get yourself to develop attraction the same way most people do? 

How do you develop attraction for someone?

Admittedly, I tend to develop attraction to women I've known for a bit and have developed what I feel is a good bond with. Of course, by then, I understand that it's usually no longer possible to turn that into something more than a platonic friendship.

And I admit, it's definitely screwed up and "not normal". I know that you're "supposed" to be attracted to people for fairly surface level qualities and then hope that a bond develops after you've been dating them for a while. That's just never how my brain has work, and I've never been able to develop attraction and "romantic" interest in women the way normal people do.

53 minutes ago, Azincourt said:

What do you expect out of an interaction with a woman? It doesn't have to lead to a number,  or to a date, many times just chatting a woman up because you're at the dentist's waiting for your turn  is a great way to develop your social skills.

Honestly? Nothing. I don't "expect" anything. And while I, again, wouldn't call myself "shy", I have such little expectations for interactions that I'm pretty much completely apathetic to the idea of even trying to initiate an interaction with any random girl, or person. Like, I just don't even care to ever insert myself into someone's day, because what would that do for anyone?

[Happy Lemming]

59 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

 I'd be more driven to go to a place or do an activity if it were a place/ activity I WANTED to pursue.

 

I understand... but what you are after is the by-product of the activity.

Participating in an activity you don't necessarily want to pursue provides you with an opportunity for this by-product. Being there and engaging in the activity puts you in touch with other humans, thus the by-product is meeting people, being social and possibly meeting a woman that you could date.

Let's say there is a co-ed bowling league in your area, you may not like to bowl and may not be any good at it, but you would be there sharing the camaraderie of the other participants and thus you make friends as you have this activity in common.  And if there is a particular woman on this league that enjoys your company, then there is the possibility of asking her out on a date (away from the rest of the team/league)  That is a by-product of an activity you really didn't want to pursue.

[Inflikted]

4 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

Participating in an activity you don't necessarily want to pursue provides you with an opportunity for this by-product. Being there and engaging in the activity puts you in touch with other humans, thus the by-product is meeting people, being social and possibly meeting a woman that you could date.

Yeah. I hear ya. All I'm saying is, the "by-product" isn't enough to drive me to pursue an activity. If I'm chasing after a "by-product", then I'm more likely to seem disinterested and disconnected in the activity, which in turn will probably be visible to everyone else there, which would not make for an attractive quality. Not to mention, the "by-product" is too intangible and lacks any degree of certainty, for me to get invested in it. In other words, using your own example, I'd rather pursue a bowling league because I wanted to bowl, because that's a tangible goal that joining a bowling league would achieve with certainty; being able to meet people would be a nice side effect of that. Does what I'm saying make sense?

I just feel like, if my heart isn't in these activities that I'm doing, and I'm just going through the motions, people will be able to see that, and that's not going to make me very "attractive" to the people there. And to me, that seems to defeat the purpose of trying to meet people.

[Happy Lemming]

2 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

Yeah. I hear ya. All I'm saying is, the "by-product" isn't enough to drive me to pursue an activity.

 

The by-product is dating a woman and having sex.  Thread after thread, post after post that has been the theme repeated by you. What do you mean that the "by-product" isn't enough to drive you to pursue an activity, that is all you talk about.

6 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

 If I'm chasing after a "by-product", then I'm more likely to seem disinterested and disconnected in the activity...

Who cares if you don't win the trophy for your bowling league, most people are there to be social and just have fun.  Yes, I do understand there are some sore losers in the world, but most people engage in an activity to have fun with other humans, not to take home a trophy.

9 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

Not to mention, the "by-product" is too intangible and lacks any degree of certainty, for me to get invested in it.

 

So you don't want to engage in an activity with other humans, unless there is a guarantee that you'll be able to date and have sex with one of the woman at this activity.  Well, life doesn't work that way.  I've gone out with countless women that I didn't sleep with.  I've wine'd and dine'd many women that rejected me after a few dates.  Did you think if you ask a woman out that she is going to fall madly in love with you and sleep with you on the first date??  Life doesn't work that way.

 

14 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

And to me, that seems to defeat the purpose of trying to meet people.

You have no idea what a woman may or may not find attractive in you.  You've never tried.  It is possible, she hates bowling as much as you, but went to this league/team because her brother-in-law said they needed to have another woman on the team to qualify as co-ed.  And in the process met you and found you both interesting and attractive.  But you'll never get the chance to meet her, because you don't want to try to meet other humans.

[Inflikted]

8 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

The by-product is dating a woman and having sex.  Thread after thread, post after post that has been the theme repeated by you. What do you mean that the "by-product" isn't enough to drive you to pursue an activity, that is all you talk about.

Heh, well, I wasn't boiling it down that way in my head, I was thinking of the "by-product" in a more broad sense of "meeting people". And to me, that's just such a broad and intangible thing, that I have a hard time finding the drive to care about that. I tend to operate in a way where I do things because I feel a need or want to specifically do them. The notion of "Hey, I should go do this random thing and hope that maybe I'll meet a nice girl there" just doesn't really resonate with me.

11 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

Who cares if you don't win the trophy for your bowling league, most people are there to be social and just have fun.  Yes, I do understand there are some sore losers in the world, but most people engage in an activity to have fun with other humans, not to take home a trophy.

Well, wanting to do the activity for the sake of the activity, and wanting to be the absolute best at it are two different things. Again, my point with your example was that I'd rather "go bowling" because I felt like "bowling is fun", rather than going with the mindset of "I sure hope I meet a girl from doing this!".

13 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

So you don't want to engage in an activity with other humans, unless there is a guarantee that you'll be able to date and have sex with one of the woman at this activity.  Well, life doesn't work that way.  I've gone out with countless women that I didn't sleep with.  I've wine'd and dine'd many women that rejected me after a few dates.  Did you think if you ask a woman out that she is going to fall madly in love with you and sleep with you on the first date??  Life doesn't work that way.

Again, that's really not the way that I was breaking it down, at all. I would never "expect" guaranteed dates/ sex from anything. Like I said, my point was that the "by-product" of simply "meeting people" is overly broad, and that broadness inspires more apathy in me than excitement or interest.

15 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

You have no idea what a woman may or may not find attractive in you.  You've never tried.  It is possible, she hates bowling as much as you, but went to this league/team because her brother-in-law said they needed to have another woman on the team to qualify as co-ed.  And in the process met you and found you both interesting and attractive.  But you'll never get the chance to meet her, because you don't want to try to meet other humans.

Perhaps. But isn't it best if I'm putting my best foot forward, so to speak?

In any case, this discussion took off in a different direction, and I never properly got the chance to ask, as it pertains to the original discussion at hand, why were you trying to assess her "type"? I'm mainly just curious as to how you were going to connect that to the discussion I was initially having about the possibility?

[Happy Lemming]

3 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

why were you trying to assess her "type"?

Some women have a type, as I pointed out with the Latina woman I dated.  Some women don't. 

If there was a common thread/theme in the men she dated (a type) and if you could describe this theme, then maybe we could compare your attributes to her list and see how much or how little you actually possessed.  Do you think your friend has a "type" she likes??  Or are the guys she dates all different without a common theme/thread.

In the Latina woman I dated, she liked tall guys over 6 feet, even though she was quite short at 4' 10".  I am 6'1".  She seemed to like thin men (minimal body fat), at that time I was running marathons and half marathons.  I had a very lean "runners body", again I checked that box.  She liked speed and loved to ride on the back of my motorcycle.  One time I picked her up for a date and had brought my car. She expressed her disappointment that I had left my sportbike at home. So for dates after that, I always picked her up on the bike & brought along a spare helmet for her to wear.  She liked going on day trips on the motorcycle and expressed happiness after every ride. So I guess I also checked that box, as well.  Do you see what I was getting at??   This Latina woman had a type that she liked and only dated men that "checked certain boxes". 

 

[Inflikted]

1 minute ago, Happy Lemming said:

If there was a common thread/theme in the men she dated (a type) and if you could describe this theme, then maybe we could compare your attributes to her list and see how much or how little you actually possessed.  Do you think your friend has a "type" she likes??  Or are the guys she dates all different without a common theme/thread.

Sure, sure. I mean, like I said, I don't necessarily notice a "type" for her. Just sorta seems like she'll date someone if she likes them enough.

But what I was getting at is, does that necessarily matter, given the situation of things? I was just wondering how whether or not she has a "type" necessarily relates to whether or not there's any chance that this dynamic we have could shift into something else.