Cuties - Netflix film causes uproar and causes people to cancel accounts

[Veronica73]

22 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Agreed.

However, the dance in this movie is not normalizing sexual behaviours of children. But, if you’ve only seen the trailer, I can definitely see how one would think that it does. If you watch the movie you see how and why the girls end up dancing in a sexualized way. Part of it is emulating a video seen of a pop star, and another part is a desire to be accepted and popular. Both these seem like a reflection of real life.
 

And in the movie, the dance was not glorified. Or seen as awesome or good. It was inappropriate and resulted in very conflicting feelings for the characters. 
 

Out of curiosity did anybody in the thread see the movie “Little Miss Sunshine”? Were you equally appalled by the final dance number in that movie?

I saw Little Miss Sunshine but it was awhile ago and I don’t remember it. But.....I was considered posting about how many of these dance moves are performed by toddlers and people post it on YouTube thinking it is funny. I bet America’s Funniest Home Videos have had similar cuts. And people laugh and think it’s cute. It’s effed up is what it is. Not sure if that is what is going on in Little Miss Sunshine, but I wouldn’t be surprised. I’ll go review it for sure.

[Veronica73]

1 hour ago, Ellener said:

I don't know if it is that straightforward, but I do think that normalising the sexual behaviours of children for the entertainment of adults is wrong. 

Some years ago when I was working as a social worker there was a theory that parents should look at pornography with their children, I threw a fit in this meeting and said no adult should ever ever be in a situation where they are sexually aroused in the presence of a child.

It is always up to the adult to be the adult in a situation and show self-control and self-awareness.

When they don't horrible things are going to occur.

 

 

I don’t agree with looking at pornography with children. And I don’t know how this was presented, but I assume it was to talk about it, as the parents know, (if they aren’t completely clueless) that the kids are going to be exposed to a lot of pornography at a young age and it’s better to talk about it with them than to let them deal with it all on their own. But it’s not like adults can’t look at pornography and not be turned on. I really doubt they were saying, lets have the whole family watch pornography and be turned on together. 

[Ellener]

5 minutes ago, Veronica73 said:

Most kids who are sexually abused are abused by trusted adults, often adults in their own immediate families.

Yes you are quite right.

Which doubly harms them, teaching them that the very people who are supposed to care for them and protect them will harm them. 

The only way to protect all children is to refuse to allow anything in the mainstream which seems to justify or excuse their abuse.

I'm usually fairly liberal but where child protection is concerned there is no grey area for me. Children depend on adults to keep them safe. 

I believe this was a cynical way of increasing interest in a declining media platform, and it serves them right if it backfired and resulted in people cancelling their subscriptions. I've cancelled mine and I have no intention to watch any such content in any context. 

Just as I would not go to a so-called child 'beauty' pageant or be involved with that. It's wrong on some level I can't even adequately express in words. 

Just this last week a man was charged in Texas of raping a nine month old to death. It just beggars belief, who would even think to do these terrible things, but people do apparently, so I would rather err on the side of caution where movies showing children made up or dancing suggestively are involved, in case the images do cause child abuse even if that's inadvertent. If someone wants to discuss the topic seriously as an art project they could talk to all the victims and make a documentary about their lives. I don't believe that is what happened in the making of this film, the original title Mignonnes refers to smallness of stature. 

Not often I am on the same page as Ted Cruz...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Libby1]

59 minutes ago, Ellener said:

Yes you are quite right.

Which doubly harms them, teaching them that the very people who are supposed to care for them and protect them will harm them. 

The only way to protect all children is to refuse to allow anything in the mainstream which seems to justify or excuse their abuse.

 

What kids see in the mainstream isn't all that relevant, because all they need to do is go online with some curiosity about sex - and straight away they're going to see some seriously disturbing stuff.  I found pornography as a child, and I can tell you it disturbed me hugely.  No way would I have felt able to discuss it with my parents, because my mother in particular was a complete prude who was utterly hopeless at stuff like that. Most mums probably were back then, but she was particularly so.  So I discussed it with friends, and some of them had similar experiences of discovering porn...and with a few older sisters getting involved in the kind of discussions we had we'd gradually get to a place where we were reassured that being with a man when we were older didn't need to be the bleak and frightening thing that pornography depicted it as.  Now, I'm not so sure those conversations would be possible because I think there'd be a lot more "well, yeah...that's what guys want, and if you're not up for that they're soon going to lose interest in you."

Here's a woman talking in very frank terms about what your average 12 year old boy is likely to find when he goes looking for pornography on the internet - as he will.  Warning, she's graphic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YpHNImNsx8&ab_channel=TEDxTalks

  It's the sort of talk that would probably anger some people on the basis that she's a self described feminist and others because she's uncompromisingly graphic in her language.  But honestly, as a kid if I'd had access to an adult like that after discovering porn I think I'd have been glad...because  it would be like "yep, whatever nastiness you've discovered that's giving you nightmares, you'd be able to tell her about it and she would cope with hearing it."  An awful lot of adults out there would just be like "oh my God, this is horrible...I don't want these visuals in my head.  I'm distraught that you've seen that.  You've lost your childlike innocence.  It's disgusting. Just stop talking about this and if you see anything like that switch off the computer straight away."  Whereas Gail Dines is like "my son has seen this stuff, and he's feeling excited, dirty, angry and ashamed all at once...and I'm here to tell him that he's a better person than the pornography industry is telling him he is."  And the same goes for girls.  They're better people than the porn industry (and those who are addicted to it) want them to believe they are 

Cuties is not porn.  It's what mainstream culture looks like as a result of porn images (the clothes, the make up, the hair styles, the poses) being mimicked in fashion, music videos etc.  But some of what kids are looking at on their phones, and showing eachother in the playground, is porn.  If those kids are seeing their parents bust a gut about something like Cuties, how are they going to feel remotely able to talk to those parents about genuinely pornographic stuff that they saw on the internet, and that's maybe causing them massive anxiety about sex, relationships etc?  It would be like...."oh my God.  Mum and dad are apparently completely traumatised by the sight of a 14 year old girl acting the part of an 11 year old and doing some Cardi B dance moves.  They're such innocents.  How could I even begin to tell them about some of the stuff I've seen on my phone?"

Readily available and often very violent pornography is here to stay.  I don't like it either, but being upset about it isn't going to make it disappear and nor is it going to stop curious young kids from watching it on their phones or their friends' hones.  So I don't know what the answer for parents who can't handle the existence of a film like Cuties is...other than that they'll have to carry on a closed off sort of relationship with their kids whereby the kids pretend to be far more innocent than they actually are in order to keep their parents happy, and the parents would prefer to just not think about the sort of thing their kid is seeing on their phone.  And I guess a lot of families will muddle along like that.  But all I can say is, I watch that youtube clip of Gail Dines speaking frankly about porn...and while I can just imagine the sort of reaction she'd get from anti-feminists and conservatives, I don't care.  To me, she'd have been a Godsend when I was a kid angsting about the rape fantasies I'd read in a magazine I shouldn't have been looking at.  It can be a big strain on children, pretending to be more innocent than they are in order to keep the adults around them in a state of blissful ignorance.

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by Libby1

[Ellener]

4 minutes ago, Libby1 said:

because all they need to do is go online with some curiosity about sex

and of course I'm older, there wasn't the internet when I grew up, I'm a bit out of touch with that aspect of youth culture.

What made me pay attention is when my son told me- mum, I saw some bad stuff on the internet before but this is too disgusting; it's because yes this stuff is out there but not accepted mainstream on the whole. What Netflix was doing was trying to make it mainstream. To make more money.

I think my whole 'platform' here is just as it always was: yes, child abuse is common but it doesn't have to be. Don't harm children, don't exploit children, don't ever have sexual relationships with a child if you are a grown adult...why should I even have to say this out loud? Who doesn't agree with me- except somebody must be doing all these abusive things...somebodies dad or stepdad or mother who looks the other way. Only you and I can fix it. Don't do it. Don't accept it. 

Pedophiles should just stop right now. Give it up, you are broken, so now society has to cope acceptably with unacceptable things you did. But those things you do are a choice- sex isn't like food or water, people can and do live without it. 

Children don't have a vote, don't often have a voice in their social situation. Even here in America where civil liberties is our cry unto the world...

People know the difference between right and wrong, of course they do, they just choose to ignore it and so long as big corporate entities fund films like 'Cuties' the majority of people aren't even really thinking about child sex abuse. It's just another movie...right?

No. It's time to speak up for all the people who got harmed, intentionally or unintentionally, by sexual abuse of children. Every day. Even in America.

I'd go further, I'd ban the pageant people right now, because they don't know how much harm they caused. Freedom comes with responsibilities, always.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Weezy1973]

16 minutes ago, Ellener said:

I think my whole 'platform' here is just as it always was: yes, child abuse is common but it doesn't have to be. Don't harm children, don't exploit children, don't ever have sexual relationships with a child if you are a grown adult...why should I even have to say this out loud?

Nobody disagrees with you about this. It’s you characterizing the movie “Cuties” as child porn and / or child abuse that people are refuting.
 

And to be clear your fear of media normalization causing child abuse to be accepted doesn’t seem to play out in reality. Child abuse has been on a slow, but steady decline since the mid 90s (like most crime) despite the explosion of the internet and media. 

If it’s a fear that media depictions like “Cuties” will cause tweens and teens to become sexual younger, both teenage sex and pregnancy rates have been falling since its height in the 1950s. 
 

It seems like forums to discuss these issues with kids (including sex Ed in schools) actually lead to healthier behaviors. 

[Ellener]

20 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Child abuse has been on a slow, but steady decline since the mid 90s (like most crime) despite the explosion of the internet and media. 

No. It has not. I live in Texas and it's now actually a major issue here, the trafficking of women and children for primarily sex abuse. 

Even our usually uncaring local government have taken it up as a major issue, it got so bad. 

I think the major issue on child sex education is probably teaching young people they do not have to be complicit when an adult tries to abuse you.

And what I was trying to say in my whole conversation was- do not let any of us adults who do not consider child sex normal get into normalising these obnoxious things. 

Why are you arguing with me? What's your agenda?

 

 

[Weezy1973]

13 minutes ago, Ellener said:

 

Why are you arguing with me? What's your agenda?

 

 

Because you’re mischaracterizing the nature of the movie Cuties. Also, I think if people do watch the movie it can promote discussion and dialogue about these things, which, especially with kids, has been shown time and time again to have better, and healthier outcomes.

Demonizing the movie without even having watched it (which is certainly the pattern it seems), is speaking from ignorance. 
 

As for the decline in rates of child abuse and teenage sex / pregnancy, all of that is well documented. The explosion of media / internet doesn’t seem to have made it more prevalent.

That being said, I can’t speak to your specific situation in Texas where I trust you when you say it’s gotten worse there.

[Veronica73]

The movie isn’t normalizing this behavior. It’s shining a light on how effed up it is, and it is doing it in a way that I think is different than what has been done before.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Veronica73

[Veronica73]

There has been little to no acknowledgement, or even a nod to “hey, maybe this is an issue”, to how what happens in porn filters down and affects kids. If you even mention it, then you are treated as if you are a prude. Kids see all of this stuff from a very young age. And if you defend a movie like this, all of a sudden people are acting like you are defending pedophiles. When the movie itself is critical. It’s a pretty messed up situation.

[Libby1]

1 hour ago, Veronica73 said:

There has been little to no acknowledgement, or even a nod to “hey, maybe this is an issue”, to how what happens in porn filters down and affects kids. If you even mention it, then you are treated as if you are a prude. Kids see all of this stuff from a very young age. And if you defend a movie like this, all of a sudden people are acting like you are defending pedophiles. When the movie itself is critical. It’s a pretty messed up situation.

We had a huge controversy (lasting for months, as I recall) over a tv programme in the UK about 20 years ago.  There used to be a satire called Brass Eye - created and headed by comedian Chris Morris.  It was a spoof current affairs programme, notorious for getting celebrities and politicians on to make absolute fools of themselves by promoting ludicrous causes that Chris Morris had just made up.  At one point he got a celebrity on to deliver warnings about a new drug called "cake" - and questions were even asked in parliament about what the government intended to do about cake.

In 2001 he did a special called Paedogeddon.  The tabloid media had been on a mission to track down paedophiles following a terrible crime, and the witch hunt soon took nonsensical turns which included a paediatrician's home being attacked because people had confused her professional title with the word "paedophile".  So Chris Morris did a Brass Eye special to lampoon the media for its hysteria and hypocrisy (tabloids often being known for publishing salacious pictures of child celebrities the moment they turned 16).  Paedogeddon warned of horrors such as a paedophile disguised as a school, and reported on a tragic incident where a paedophile was blasted into space to teach him a lesson - only for the space centre to realise too late that an 8 year old boy was trapped in the space craft with him. 

Long term fans of Chris Morris knew what he was about and understood that he was lampooning the tabloid press...but naturally enough, a lot of viewers thought that he was mocking child abuse victims.  The tabloid press obviously knew very well that it was the target, but went on the counter attack by gleefully whipping up public fury about the Brass Eye special mocking child abuse victims.  The show received a record number of complaints.  For fans of Chris Morris, he was just such a genius at surreal comedy and satire that you laughed even when he was dealing with terrible subject matter...but for a large portion of the public who were completely unfamiliar with his work, it understandably was no laughing matter, and the whole thing resulted in a lot of arguments.   As with Cuties, many complaints came from people who hadn't actually seen the show - but weren't happy with what they'd heard about it. 

In a situation like that, the catharsis of group anger takes over...and anybody who suggests that people might be missing the point is likely to get caught up in the crossfire.  

https://tv.avclub.com/brass-eye-s-paedogeddon-inflamed-the-u-k-but-was-th-1798239468

Edited September 25, 2020 by Libby1

[basil67]

6 hours ago, Ellener said:

I don't watch a lot of things which are mainstream because they seem inappropriate or harmful to culture @Weezy1973

The issue with this movie seems to be clear- some people will use it as child pornography, and other people don't want to support that.

And a dirty old man may take photos of kids on the beach and use it for gratification.   But does anyone stop taking their kids to the beach because of the risk?

[Timshel]

7 hours ago, Veronica73 said:

Most kids who are sexually abused are abused by trusted adults, often adults in their own immediate families.

Yes, thank you.

4 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Child abuse has been on a slow, but steady decline since the mid 90s (like most crime) despite the explosion of the internet and media. 

Actually, I do not think that this is true.  I will not provide data and that leaves free fair for dispute.  As a forensic psych I simply disagree. 

I have not seen 'Cuties.'  I do think that the concern for this movie should be an impetus for awareness of valid pedophilia/sex trafficking and sexual assault of children worldwide for those who would only take notice of hyperbole from the media.  It's better than nothing.

 The truth is, most sexual assaults occur with family, friends and trusted adults such as teachers, coaches, babysitters...etc.  

If we are talking about twerking, know what your child is doing and watching.  Spend time talking to them...about everything.  Put devices and the internet down and off.

Netflix also put out 'The Social Dilemma.'

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

And a dirty old man may take photos of kids on the beach and use it for gratification.   But does anyone stop taking their kids to the beach because of the risk?

Er maybe. Would you take your kids to the beach if you knew their semi-naked images were going to then be on international media for all eternity?

But it's not a 'dirty old man' on the beach who is doing this, it's an international famous film platform/organisation. 

That's what I'm trying to get across here: once this becomes okay it is basically legitimising child pornography. 

It opens the floodgates of what sex offenders have been trying to do for decades. The 'dirty old men' don't see any wrong in what they do to women and children. 

Some people just see it as a means to an end, to make money, and that's what we saw here in Texas as a part of the people-trafficking, the women and children there though have no choices, they are basically held as captive slaves. 

But the men who go to use them don't see themselves as sex offenders or pedophiles either. What kind of man would take pleasure in those circumstances defies belief in my eyes.

That's my point- if people refused to be part of this nefarious industry then it could not would not happen. 

Nobody should justify it, thinking it's harmless. A lot of women and children already got harmed, and I can't imagine it's a very healthy pursuit for a man frankly, to exploit someone in distress. What's that going to do for your character, your morality? It may seem like a joke ( 'grab a woman by the pussy' ) but it's unacceptable. 

No no no no no, I've been the most sexually liberal of people in my personal life but no one should ever do this. You will regret it, maybe come up on the wrong side of the law and public opinion, but most importantly this is not a good way forward for a nation. The pandemic is causing unprecedented poverty worldwide and people will be looking to exploit women and children to get through the crisis. 

It has to be a gut reaction- no. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[basil67]

I'm sorry, we aren't going to agree.  Rather than butt heads where nobody is going to change their minds, I will bow out.

[LivingWaterPlease]

9 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Yup totally understand. Nobody should be forced to watch anything. But if we ban the movie, we’re getting into “thought police” territory. Best solution is to let the movie continue streaming, and those that don’t want to watch it don’t.  

Who said anything about banning the movie? I must have missed it. Can you show me where someone posted that?

[Ellener]

14 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I'm sorry, we aren't going to agree.  Rather than butt heads where nobody is going to change their minds, I will bow out.

and maybe you should. 

I don't think I will ever give up on child protection issues...all I can say is I listened to way too many victims, heard their stories, and tried to make them free. Or free-er.

It makes me mad that that here in America it's something which still happens.

 

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, Timshel said:

Actually, I do not think that this is true.  I will not provide data and that leaves free fair for dispute.  As a forensic psych I simply disagree. 

https://www.childtrends.org/indicators/child-maltreatment
 

“Key facts about child maltreatment

The rate of substantiated child maltreatment has shown little change over the past several years, although it is remarkably lower in 2017 than in 1990, having fallen from 13 per 1,000 children to 9 per 1,000.

Rates of physical, sexual, and psychological or emotional abuse have declined substantially since 2000, while rates of neglect have declined the least.”

 

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, enigma32 said:

Yeah, sometimes they do. I personally know of some families that have packed up and left over perverts. We also take it upon ourselves to try and make sure that the perverts do not feel at home here. 

But you acknowledge the pervert is the problem. Not the kids in the bathing suits, or the parents that bring them to the beach, nor the beach itself. 
 

It’s also not the fault of the director of the movie, or the child actors and their parents, nor is it the fault of Netflix. It’s the pervert that’s the problem.

[Weezy1973]

51 minutes ago, Ellener said:

That's what I'm trying to get across here: once this becomes okay it is basically legitimising child pornography. 

 

This is quite a leap. The movie depicts real life. Girls dancing like their pop star idols actually happens. It is not pornographic and neither is this movie. 
Criticizing the reach of sexual media into kids is a valid criticism, but criticizing a movie that points to the impacts of that seems strange to me. Like your anger is misplaced. 

[Ellener]

5 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

But you acknowledge the pervert is the problem. Not the kids in the bathing suits, or the parents that bring them to the beach, nor the beach itself. 
 

It’s also not the fault of the director of the movie, or the child actors and their parents, nor is it the fault of Netflix. It’s the pervert that’s the problem.

so don't feed the pervert. 

[jspice]

45 minutes ago, Ellener said:

and maybe you should. 

I don't think I will ever give up on child protection issues...all I can say is I listened to way too many victims, heard their stories, and tried to make them free. Or free-er.

It makes me mad that that here in America it's something which still happens.

 

It happens in every single country. 

[NuevoYorko]

This thread has turned out to be an epic microcosm of exactly why this country (US) is spinning down a toilet.

Swarming with very vocal, self-righteous people spouting off about protecting the children, child pornography, etc. etc. etc.  

So far, not one of our local morality police has seen "Cuties"  - though evidently, the son of one of them has seen it.  He was evidently traumatized, yet bit the bullet to sit through it in order to give his mom a full report so she could be sufficiently outraged and #savethechildren.  What a sacrifice.

The posters have been TOLD what this movie is about.  "Cuties" has been politicized for reasons, none of which have to do with saving children.  And, I hate to break it to anyone, but Ted Cruz is on board with the politicalization - not with child welfare.  FFS.

The woman who made this independent film (no, not BIG MONEY ENTITIES) is an artist.  This is a coming of age film.  Coming of age involves sexuality.  There are hundreds of coming of age films and works of fiction which involve the sexual awakening of young people.  Some of these even actually do go to the edge of pedophilia  (Nabokov's "Lolita;" "The Graduate.")

Again, I absolutely respect the right of anyone to not watch this movie and to have an issue with what we all know it contains:  girls doing sexy dance moves.  I respect their right to cancel their NetFlix subscription for any reason whatsoever. The idea of having girls doing sexy dance moves in films is obviously a worthwhile topic to some people and they should talk about it.

But to spend hours and paragraphs decrying it and getting on a ridiculous high horse of morality over a movie that was an earnest and sensitive attempt at depicting a few crucial things going on with young people, especially where culture clashes are happening?  A movie that they haven't seen?  

This is more "harmful to culture" than the movie is.  It reminds me of the "Satanic Panic" of the '80's, when numerous daycare providers were being falsely accused of devil worshipping activities in their facilities.  

Cue the book burning.  

 

 

[Ellener]

I've been going on about this topic for longer than some of you have been alive @NuevoYorkoand I'll be going on about it I expect to the end of my days. It never seems to end. Or get fixed. I worked in this field in the 80s where criminologists just thought it was about educating ignorant people to treat other people better. But the people did not want to change and they were doing something morally unacceptable. I can't tell you the number of child sex offenders I've heard justify their behaviour or refuse to accept they harmed anyone. Which is the opposite which their victims say- they say their lives were ruined at an early age because someone took advantage of their powerlessness or treated them sexually.

Nobodies burning books, but child protection takes precedence over artist license and creative freedom. 

I think Ted Cruz was so vocal about it as he lead one of the crusades here in Texas about the trafficking of women and children. I know he's not been a very kind man in general with the  silly political things he says to gain attention ( “We need 100 more like Jesse Helms in the U.S. Senate.” etc )  but anyone who ever works in this field is going to come away morally outraged about it forever I think, and very heightened to the potential for child abuse.

Maybe that's the whole point of this debate-it will raise awareness of genuine world issues where young people are suffering so painfully and so needlessly.

But no, I don't believe 11 year olds should be employed in suggestive dance roles to sell movies, and no I would not watch any of it. If that makes me ignorant so be it. I've heard more than enough real life stories to be informed. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Libby1]

7 hours ago, basil67 said:

I'm sorry, we aren't going to agree.  Rather than butt heads where nobody is going to change their minds, I will bow out.

I think that's very unfortunate.  You seem like a very sensible, well adjusted person who is especially well equipped to help a child negotiate their way through the trials and pitfalls that face children in times that are a lot more difficult/less innocent than they were 20 or 30 years ago.  Ellener's approach would, I think, be more suited to the grandparent.  Which is in no way intended as an insult.  I think grandparents can play that very valuable role of helping to keep some magic in children's lives (Ellener's anecdote about reading the Roald Dahl stories to the abused child).  Which is a precious thing for children.  Even if the child she read that story to didn't really seem to appreciate or be helped by it at the time, it probably became a nice memory for them to look back on.

I think probably every person on this thread is capable of contributing, and probably has contributed, important and valuable things to a child or children's lives....no matter how much we might all butt heads.  But there's something about the business of looking after children and helping them participate in activities that we hope they'll flourish in that can sometimes end up with adults spending a lot of time butting heads.  Until it gets to the point where somebody like you, who has so much to offer in a discussion like this, says "I will bow out" and Ellener, who frankly should know much better, agrees that yes you should. 

Maybe there's scope for a thread in the parenting section about the wider issues raised by Cuties, and how people can help their children to negotiate their way/stay psychologically healthy in a society where there's so much pressure for them to adopt some of the beliefs, behaviour and trappings promoted by the porn industry into their lives.  Maybe with a couple of rules in the thread that it's not a platform for people to air their views about the film itself.