Silent treatment - how to get my stuff back?

[ExpatInItaly]

6 minutes ago, astutise said:

The counsellor mentioned that she saw traits of 'covert narcissism' - apparently these traits are about being super severely sensitive to any hint of criticism and when i exclaimed that i simply couldn't understand the restaurant incident, she said 'in his mind, due to his narcissism, he genuinely believes the waiters and other diners take notice of him and care about him and everything that is happening concerning him and are evaluating him so he needs to make sure he looks good'.

I mean....If this is true, and some people really do believe things like this when attending restaurant, then I am at a loss of words. 

And that's just it - you won't be able to understand the mind of people who think the way he does. 

There aren't a lot of people out like him, in my experience; but as we have both learned, they do exist. It is irrational by most objective definitions but it also signals some seriously distorted thinking. 

[astutise]

1 minute ago, mark clemson said:

Borderline personality disorder or severe anxious avoidant attachment would be my first guesses, but covert narcissist makes sense too.  Or just an abuser who reeled you in. 

These are of course just guesses, hard to know. Clearly somethings off.

I'm not dating, but my thought would be that sometimes a few possessions just aren't worth it.

What trips me up is that I am the one from a dysfunctional family. I always think: if there's going to be reason for there to be issues/emotional manipulation, surely it'll be ME and what if I am unaware of it? His parents worked their whole lives, his siblings work good jobs, he lives in a nice area.

My background is the opposite and i've had to crawl my way to where I am now with a good job. So whenever anything troublesome arises, even if its the other person doing it, my mind pins me down and says 'yes but its you who meets the criteria for disorders with your background and childhood neglect, its YOU who must be wired up wrong' maybe their behaviour is normal and i don't see how i am in the wrong? I'm not saying I am perfect but just to be perfectly honest, on paper if you write out our backgrounds, it would be very easy to point the finger at me as being the problematic one and i really don't want to be unaware of this which makes me doubt my perceptions. 

[ExpatInItaly]

14 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Borderline personality disorder or severe anxious avoidant attachment would be my first guesses, but covert narcissist makes sense too.  Or just an abuser who reeled you in. 

This was exactly the issue with the man I dated (mentioned up-thread)

I didn't find out until later that he'd actually been diagnosed twice (by two different psychiatrists) with BPD, although he never sought treatment and generally refused to even acknowledge that he had issues. It was an uphill battle I couldn't have won, so I bowed out. 

[astutise]

2 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

This was exactly the issue with the man I dated (mentioned up-thread)

I didn't find out until later that he'd actually been diagnosed twice (by two different psychiatrists) with BPD, although he never sought treatment and generally refused to even acknowledge that he had issues. It was an uphill battle I couldn't have won, so I bowed out. 

My friend has been married to his wife with bpd for nearly 10 years.She denies to acknowledge it too. The marriage is a misery, from what I've seen and as much as i empathise with mental health issues, the bizarre behaviours are just.....again, im at a loss for words.. Uphill battle sums it well. My friend is miserable and just says to me 'i made my bed, now i have to lie in it' when i ask why he puts up with it. 

[Veronica73]

God, you remind me so much of myself. Both the background, the questioning myself if I’m the one who’s really the problem, etc., dating people like that and staying way longer than anybody else would, etc. So glad you got out of it rather early. That guy could have torn you down for years. 

[astutise]

Just read this quote on a website for BPD. This thing - projection - yes. Wow, I had gotten into such a dark rut of feeling worthless and blaming myself that it has barely occurred to me that he could be doing anything weird due to how HE is. I'm not diagnosing him (though I am a doctor and do see a lot of personality disorders playing out) - but they do say these disorders are all a spectrum that we are all on, not necessarily always on the diagnosis end.

 

'Put a stop to projection

Do you have a tendency to take your negative feelings and project them on to other people? Do you lash out at others when you’re feeling bad about yourself? Does feedback or constructive criticism feel like a personal attack? If so, you may have a problem with projection.

To fight projection, you’ll need to learn to apply the brakes—just like you did to curb your impulsive behaviours. Tune in to your emotions and the physical sensations in your body. Take note of signs of stress, such as rapid heart rate, muscle tension, sweating, nausea, or light-headedness. When you’re feeling this way, you’re likely to go on the attack and say something you’ll regret later. Pause and take a few slow deep breaths. Then ask yourself the following three questions:

Am I upset with myself?

Am I feeling ashamed or afraid?

Am I worried about being abandoned?

If the answer is yes, take a conversation break. Tell the other person that you’re feeling emotional and would like some time to think before discussing things further.' 

[poppyfields]

2 hours ago, astutise said:

Hmm, I've been thinking about it this. The weird abusive stuff didn't happen too early on - he was very kind and sweet for the first 2 months I'd say, and when it did, it really shocked me. I knew intuitively it was wrong and weird and odd but i guess I'd trace it back to my family why i stayed - my thought process was that maybe i didn't really understand what had happened, maybe it is my fault I'm not getting it - my family were often volatile if anyone had emotional needs and I guess he is quite similar to them so in a way i am quite densensitised to crazy making behaviour, things like: 'its YOUR fault if you are upset, you're too sensitive and its not my problem!'. Its an active effort to not get caught up in that kind of stuff. I've had a lot of therapy so now even if i do try to pretend its not there, all the things i learnt in therapy niggle away at me like....but you know deep down this is not good, won't end well.... Plus i guess the other thing is i had to move far away to where i am for work now and its been pretty hard and lonely in a new city, and the 2 months of sweet dates with a kind guy was really nice - i didn't want to let go of it, to be honest. But everytime i was with him after that first argument, my nervous system would be off the charts as though it was desperately trying to get me to pay attention. 

I guess the only positive is the progress made: previously many years ago, i'd stick around with awful partners for years before catching myself and taking affirmative action where now it was only staying a further 1 month after first exposure to the abuse. It still feels sucky; i don't think children of abusive families like me ever really fully HEAL, you just learn to manage and maintain it and make better choices to go against how you are wired by childhood...with a lot of strength and energy.

Thank you for sharing this^, I understand better why you stayed even if only for three months.  One month since the first incident.

Good for you for having the awareness and presense of mind to leave when you did!  👍

Allow me to share a true story with you about a man I dated years ago who was also wonderful for the first couple of months.  

Then the criticisms started, it appeared I could not do anything right according to him!

Nothing verbally abusive just very very critical. 

I remember telling a friend, sort of joking but not really, that I was dating a man who didn't seem to like me very much! 

Well anyway, one night he criticized in a very harsh tone the way I had chosen to decorate my new home, and I'd had enough.  

So I said to him quite assertively "Since according to you, I can't do anything right, why do you stay with me?  What does that say about YOU continuing to date a woman who can do no right and who you don't even seem to like"!

I told him since clearly he's not happy, there's the door.  He was pretty shocked and immediately started back tracking all of it.

I was done though and broke up with him.  

He couldn't let it go, he called and called wanting another chance, lord the man was literally begging for another chance.  But I was done.  

My point is these men are inherently weak.  That is why they abuse. It is how they gain control or think they do.  

If you can see them for the weak men that they are, it makes it easy to leave, after the first verbal attack.

Although the guy I dated had not verbally attacked me, the criticisms were so harsh and cruel, I knew it would happen eventually.

I used to volunteer helping women suffering from domestic violence and know a lot about it. 

Abusive men test the women they date, to determine how weak or strong they are.

Your acceptance of the first verbal attack (by staying) was all the evidence he needed to know that you are (or were) weak and were the perfect candidate for his particular brand of lunacy. 

I'm so happy you ultimately proved him wrong!!  

Forget about your stuff and thank your lucky stars he is out of your life!!  xoxo

 

Edited September 20, 2020 by poppyfields

[Watercolors]

1 hour ago, astutise said:

What trips me up is that I am the one from a dysfunctional family. I always think: if there's going to be reason for there to be issues/emotional manipulation, surely it'll be ME and what if I am unaware of it? His parents worked their whole lives, his siblings work good jobs, he lives in a nice area.

My background is the opposite and i've had to crawl my way to where I am now with a good job. So whenever anything troublesome arises, even if its the other person doing it, my mind pins me down and says 'yes but its you who meets the criteria for disorders with your background and childhood neglect, its YOU who must be wired up wrong' maybe their behaviour is normal and i don't see how i am in the wrong? I'm not saying I am perfect but just to be perfectly honest, on paper if you write out our backgrounds, it would be very easy to point the finger at me as being the problematic one and i really don't want to be unaware of this which makes me doubt my perceptions. 

Here's the thing. Has your counselor mentioned codependency to you at all? Women who tend to be codependent (i.e. caretakers, empathetic, kind) *will* be like shark chum to covert narcissists. I've fallen into that trap myself, as a recovering codependent. Dated many a covert narcissist who love bombed me at first, then once they realized I was hooked, dropped their facade personality and showed me their real self; someone who is emotionally disconnected, self-centered, mean, verbally abusive and an expert gaslighter.

Covert narcissists do give off red flags but they are sometimes hard to spot. But if you can learn to recognize their pattern of attraction right away, you can avoid getting entangled with a covert narcissist in the future. 

https://www.verywellmind.com/understanding-the-covert-narcissist-4584587

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-narcissist-in-your-life/202007/identifying-the-covert-narcissist-in-your-life-checklist

Best way to deal with him right now: Grey Rock the son of a bitch. 

https://www.insider.com/how-to-use-gray-rock-method-narcissist-no-contact-2019-6

And who cares about your stuff. In the future, just don't leave anything behind at a lover's place until you've been with him for at least 6 months to a year. 3 months is not in the 'safety' zone yet, b/c you're still getting to know each other. Just don't do it. Otherwise, you might as well write those items off on your taxes as stolen. Do not be surprised if he uses your stuff as a manipulation to bargain with you, so that he can emotionally manipulate and control you into giving him another chance. Hence, the Grey Rock method is what will help you cut ties with him. 

Edited September 20, 2020 by Watercolors

[Wiseman2]

6 hours ago, astutise said:

I'll give him a couple of days to post the stuff then check in on the progress if i don't hear anything - if there's any bother, I'm just tempted to cut my losses and block him.

He is not obligated to pack up and pay for sending your stuff. Your stuff is your responsibility.  If you asked him to pack it up and pay for having it delivered to you, you may as well say good bye to it. Don't bother trying to diagnose him, his ex , his family, etc. You dated 12 WEEKS. cut  your losses and move forward. Next time skip long distance and leave stuff at guys' homes.

[MsJayne]

6 hours ago, astutise said:

What trips me up is that I am the one from a dysfunctional family. I always think: if there's going to be reason for there to be issues/emotional manipulation, surely it'll be ME and what if I am unaware of it? His parents worked their whole lives, his siblings work good jobs, he lives in a nice area.

My background is the opposite and i've had to crawl my way to where I am now with a good job. So whenever anything troublesome arises, even if its the other person doing it, my mind pins me down and says 'yes but its you who meets the criteria for disorders with your background and childhood neglect, its YOU who must be wired up wrong' maybe their behaviour is normal and i don't see how i am in the wrong? I'm not saying I am perfect but just to be perfectly honest, on paper if you write out our backgrounds, it would be very easy to point the finger at me as being the problematic one and i really don't want to be unaware of this which makes me doubt my perceptions. 

I can relate. You've been groomed to put up with abusive behaviour so you second-guess yourself when dealing with kooks in an "is it me or is it them?" way. It's not you, it's them. I'm glad you spotted his disorder and dumped him quickly,  they usually can't keep it under a lid for too long, three months I've always noticed, like after a certain amount of time their true self, their inner creep refuses to be kept under wraps any longer, and they think you're emotionally involved so Inner Creep feels safe to make an appearance. You probably go around feeling empathy and sympathy for people with  mental disorders, I always did for most of my life, but then one day I woke up and realised that what the mental health profession politely calls a Personality Disorder often means a person who is just a total creep, and they don't deserve sympathy.  They should have a warning tattooed on their forehead so decent human beings don't go near them. 

[astutise]

6 hours ago, MsJayne said:

I can relate. You've been groomed to put up with abusive behaviour so you second-guess yourself when dealing with kooks in an "is it me or is it them?" way. It's not you, it's them. I'm glad you spotted his disorder and dumped him quickly,  they usually can't keep it under a lid for too long, three months I've always noticed, like after a certain amount of time their true self, their inner creep refuses to be kept under wraps any longer, and they think you're emotionally involved so Inner Creep feels safe to make an appearance. You probably go around feeling empathy and sympathy for people with  mental disorders, I always did for most of my life, but then one day I woke up and realised that what the mental health profession politely calls a Personality Disorder often means a person who is just a total creep, and they don't deserve sympathy.  They should have a warning tattooed on their forehead so decent human beings don't go near them. 

This is very true. Psychiatrists and psychologists have said that it take a lot of effort and energy to maintain a fake facade for these people so they can only do it for a short period before it is absolutely exhausting - and as you said, they wait until you're emotionally invested and then its a case of 'i can relax now' - mask off. 

[astutise]

Hmm he replied saying he will post them recorded delivery, no problem and 'don't worry about transferring cost'. This is making me feel unnerved, he's being very nice...

[Fletch Lives]

22 hours ago, astutise said:

The counsellor mentioned that she saw traits of 'covert narcissism' - apparently these traits are about being super severely sensitive to any hint of criticism and when i exclaimed that i simply couldn't understand the restaurant incident, she said 'in his mind, due to his narcissism, he genuinely believes the waiters and other diners take notice of him and care about him and everything that is happening concerning him and are evaluating him so he needs to make sure he looks good'.

Your counselor is exactly right. Control freaks think the world revolves around them. Some people have issues and are not the catch of the day. 

The good news is, you got out of this relationship early. Don't beat yourself up about this, he was a bad catch, you did nothing wrong.

[stillafool]

20 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

He is not obligated to pack up and pay for sending your stuff. Your stuff is your responsibility.  If you asked him to pack it up and pay for having it delivered to you, you may as well say good bye to it. Don't bother trying to diagnose him, his ex , his family, etc. You dated 12 WEEKS. cut  your losses and move forward. Next time skip long distance and leave stuff at guys' homes.

OP I'm wondering why when you decided to break up with him you would leave your favorite dress and hoodie there.  Why didn't you collect everything of yours since you knew you were not coming back?  It's a good thing to not leave things at a boyfriend's house for circumstances such as this.

[stillafool]

9 hours ago, astutise said:

This is very true. Psychiatrists and psychologists have said that it take a lot of effort and energy to maintain a fake facade for these people so they can only do it for a short period before it is absolutely exhausting - and as you said, they wait until you're emotionally invested and then its a case of 'i can relax now' - mask off. 

I think most people when they first start dating are on their best behavior but in time the true personality comes out.  That is why the first 3 mos of dating is a trial period.

[stillafool]

Just now, stillafool said:

I think most people when they first start dating are on their best behavior but in time the true personality comes out.  That is why the first 3 mos of dating is a trial period.  You either get each other or you don't.  Obviously this guy isn't for you but thank goodness you're getting your dress and hoodie back.

 

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, astutise said:

Hmm he replied saying he will post them recorded delivery, no problem and 'don't worry about transferring cost'. This is making me feel unnerved, he's being very nice...

Maybe he's glad all the drama is over with.

[astutise]

2 hours ago, stillafool said:

OP I'm wondering why when you decided to break up with him you would leave your favorite dress and hoodie there.  Why didn't you collect everything of yours since you knew you were not coming back?  It's a good thing to not leave things at a boyfriend's house for circumstances such as this.

I didn't know I was breaking up with him when I left my things in his second home, that was a week prior . I was with him in his other place when the events leading to the break up happened. 

[smackie9]

Ya I'm gonna go with narcissist. You can never ever win with them. They put on a mask of sincerity and kindness until the day you cross them. Their ego is so fragile, they will pin you down at any cost, and it does not stop.

[MsJayne]

6 hours ago, astutise said:

Hmm he replied saying he will post them recorded delivery, no problem and 'don't worry about transferring cost'. This is making me feel unnerved, he's being very nice...

He's in the 'remorse' phase. I think you'll get your stuff back and then he'll think everything's OK and he'll likely start trying to win you back. Be brutal with your rejection  

[Trail Blazer]

What an unpleasant individual!  Hopefully you get your stuff back.  I probably would not have given him your home address if I were you.  It would have been more ideal to have it sent to your local post office and collect it from there.

[poppyfields]

23 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

What an unpleasant individual!  Hopefully you get your stuff back.  I probably would not have given him your home address if I were you.  It would have been more ideal to have it sent to your local post office and collect it from there.

That's what I said too! 

Fingers crossed you get your dress back and he's moved on.

[Watercolors]

36 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

That's what I said too! 

Fingers crossed you get your dress back and he's moved on.

Never break up with someone until you've discreetly taken your stuff back to your own place first. That's one lesson then everyone should learn. Nothing more awkward than trying to get your ex to return your things. He/she could be psycho and throw it out on the curb, break it and throw it out, or mail it back broken w/a signature required that you have to pay for the delivery yourself. Civilized return of the exes things? Never experienced that personally. I mean, it makes sense if you live together or are married getting a divorce. But just dating a few months? Leave your stuff at home. Eeek. 

[Trail Blazer]

18 minutes ago, Watercolors said:

Never break up with someone until you've discreetly taken your stuff back to your own place first. That's one lesson then everyone should learn. Nothing more awkward than trying to get your ex to return your things. He/she could be psycho and throw it out on the curb, break it and throw it out, or mail it back broken w/a signature required that you have to pay for the delivery yourself. Civilized return of the exes things? Never experienced that personally. I mean, it makes sense if you live together or are married getting a divorce. But just dating a few months? Leave your stuff at home. Eeek. 

Yes, but just as often you'll find it's the other person who breaks up with you and because you were blind-sided by the breakup, your stuff is still at there place.

This happened to my girlfriend with her most recent ex.  Two years later and her stuff is still at his place.  Thousands of dollars worth, which, according to him is still safe and untouched (thankfully).  

[astutise]

8 hours ago, smackie9 said:

Ya I'm gonna go with narcissist. You can never ever win with them. They put on a mask of sincerity and kindness until the day you cross them. Their ego is so fragile, they will pin you down at any cost, and it does not stop.

This has been his behaviour. It was really mind-boggling and scary. He kept saying over and over and over that I am mean, unkind and don't treat him well because of my sad face at the restaurant. And when he said something nasty about my friend one time and I asked him not to, he said I am offensive and unkind for accusing him of saying something not nice and then said 'apology accepted' before I'd even said sorry and then continued until I felt like I had to say sorry just to stop the onslaught.