Secretive Spouses?

[major_merrick]

My GF#2 came home after an interesting day.  She works with my husband.  To make a long story short, they had vehicle problems.  Broken truck, dirty clothes.  She told me they went to his apartment in the city to get fresh clothes and pick up a different vehicle from a storage unit.  Full STOP.  I'm like..... apartment?  Other vehicle?  Storage unit?  What? 

Now, we have multiple partners.  No reason for infidelity, nor would I care.  I'm just wondering how/why my husband has a spot in town that I never knew about.  I asked him about it in a nonchalant manner, and he just said that he's had it for years and uses it as backup.  Probably true, since he's always kept things in reserve in case of emergencies.  I asked Wife #1, and she said she remembered something like that existing, but didn't really care. 

My husband doesn't lie to me.  But there's definitely secrets of omission, things that aren't fully open.  Like his office (which is always locked.)  That apartment.  Other hidden spots?  Bank accounts?  We don't have joint finances and I know he's responsible, but I really have no idea how he manages things.  I don't even know if I have a problem with this, but I just feel a bit sad.  Kind of like I haven't been included.  We've always been very close comrades and known almost everything about each other.

I know that my patriarchal, polygamous relationship is not the norm for this forum or for the USA.  But I'm curious...in your relationships, how much secrecy do you think is acceptable?  Is there a different in "secrecy by omission" vs "secrecy by deceit?"  Is refusing access to an area or disclosing details on a "need to know" basis acceptable? 

[basil67]

MM, none of the secrets your husband has would be acceptable in my relationship.  And to me, omission is simply one of the tools one can use when being deceptive.   So I see them as being one and the same.

Any ideas where you're going to go with this?

Edited October 1, 2020 by basil67

[major_merrick]

@basil67Why would omission be unacceptable to you?  What would such omission make you feel?  Is absolute openness a requirement of a relationship?   

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this.  I mean, I see some secrets as beneficial and some as simply...well, they happen.  For example, I've never told my partners the numbers and details  of my previous sexual encounters.  Kind of a "don't ask, don't tell" situation.  Disclosing that is neither necessary nor beneficial.  So how do we determine what level of openness is required?  When does a lack of openness leave the realm of prudence and become deceit? 

I'm working out my feelings on this.  I definitely want to have further discussion with my husband, but I don't want to be the nagging, badgering wife.  That won't be productive at all.  

[central]

Some omissions are fine, because they really don't and won't impact the relationship.  If you are a real partner in a relationship, then things like finances, assets, apartments and real estate, vehicles, other income sources, etc., should all be disclosed.  Perhaps you need a family meeting to ask that everyone fill out a list of all these things.  You can discuss and agree what should be included or excluded, and discuss other things that would be relevant or important to know since you are sharing so much already.

[basil67]

I'm with @central in that some omissions don't matter so much.   To me, past history isn't as important to the here and now.   However, your examples of an undisclosed second home would not remotely be OK.  Likewise, as we have agreed to pool our incomes, finding a secret bank account would be an issue too.   We've always agreed to have transparency and if something like a second home appeared, I would lose all trust that he's honest with me. 

About the only time locking would be OK with me is if he worked from home and had sensitive data and needed it locked in a filing cabinet to meet work protocol.   For example, a doctor with patient history or accountant with people's income details.   But I can't see why one would need to lock a whole room unless they are hiding stuff.

[major_merrick]

Well, our incomes are quite separate.  Well, as far as his and mine go, anyways.  I don't really need to know all of his financial stuff, but a general idea might be nice.  A list of assets might be a good idea.  I mean, if something happened to him somebody ought to have an idea about what items are where. 

What I can't figure out about the apartment is....why have it if it is unoccupied 99% of the time?  I can see how it would be handy in the event of an accident, snowstorm, being to drunk to go home after partying, or a sudden need to house a friend or family member.  But those aren't everyday things. 

And then there's intent.  Did he intend to conceal it?  Since he took GF#2 there, I'd guess not.  Did he just not tell me because it wasn't important?  Too busy? 

 

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

27 minutes ago, major_merrick said:

Well, our incomes are quite separate.  Well, as far as his and mine go, anyways.  I don't really need to know all of his financial stuff, but a general idea might be nice.  A list of assets might be a good idea.  I mean, if something happened to him somebody ought to have an idea about what items are where. 

What I can't figure out about the apartment is....why have it if it is unoccupied 99% of the time?  I can see how it would be handy in the event of an accident, snowstorm, being to drunk to go home after partying, or a sudden need to house a friend or family member.  But those aren't everyday things. 

And then there's intent.  Did he intend to conceal it?  Since he took GF#2 there, I'd guess not.  Did he just not tell me because it wasn't important?  Too busy? 

 

Maybe he’s running a business out of it you don’t know about. Like a brothel. 

[Wiseman2]

Is he legally your husband or just a celestial type of arrangement?

If there is no legal marriage or joint tax returns, he can have all sorts of assets that he doesn't have to tell you about.

[Fletch Lives]

Well I know you have multiple partners. I'll just say it's not natural and can cause extra problems that are hard to solve.

[Ruby Slippers]

It wouldn't fly for me. But then neither would being one of several wives... so I imagine our views diverge in a number of ways. To me, a marriage is a spiritual union where you spiritually become one and everything is shared.

You can ask him questions in an open way without nagging. 

[Watercolors]

14 hours ago, major_merrick said:

I know that my patriarchal, polygamous relationship is not the norm for this forum or for the USA.  But I'm curious...in your relationships, how much secrecy do you think is acceptable?  Is there a different in "secrecy by omission" vs "secrecy by deceit?"  Is refusing access to an area or disclosing details on a "need to know" basis acceptable? 

I don’t think your husband is keeping secrets from you. Does he have to tell you everything? I mean, you’re wife # of how many. I’m sure all of you have secrets from your husband. Everyone has secrets. No one is exempt. 

What if he told you about his apartment earlier in your relationship history but you just forgot. Is that possible?  Or, what if he didn’t tell you because he didn’t think you’d care one way or another.

You said you don’t care about infidelity since you have multiple partners. So, why suddenly care that your husband has an apartment in town? I don’t view it as a secret of omission or a deceptive secret from you.

I view it as, he has an apartment, he didn’t tell you, so what. There are worse things to keep secret from you, like; he is hoarding millions of dollars from you and the other wives.  Or, he Has a family abroad that he is going to leave you and the other wives for. Or, he has some nasty sexually transmitted disease. Or, he has AIDS and had unprotected sex with you when he was diagnosed but didn’t tell you. 

But keeping a city apartment is not that big of a deal. 
 

[lana-banana]

Yeah, lies of omission are unacceptable, as are omissions about material facts in a person's life. I would not be mad if my husband had an apartment somewhere but I would be furious if he didn't tell me about it. If it's just used for preparation or emergencies (? what type of emergencies require an apartment far from your primary residence? why wouldn't you just get a hotel room unless you were using it somewhat regularly?), why wouldn't you mention it?

As a spouse I need to know about anything that could potentially impact me. This is why financial secrets are unacceptable (what if there's delinquent debt? who do they owe money to? what if I've been busting my butt for something he could have paid off in a day? etc). Similarly, criminal involvement, drug involvement, and pertinent medical history matter. I would not be happy if he hid some kind of debilitating disease either.

I don't care what my husband does or things he did before wet met, and we aren't the sort of couples that are constantly sharing each other's location when the other is out somewhere. But we're very open with each other and I would never accept him hiding a significant portion of his life from me.

[mark clemson]

Speaking generally, I think there's this concept of "radical honesty" out there because being FULLY 100% honest with a spouse is actually pretty rare. Accepting zero privacy whatsoever is probably a sign of insecurity as well as irritating to the partner eventually. Opens you up to lots of unnecessary judgment. I don't necessarily WANT to be radically honest about how those pants fit her tush, especially when asked directly.

That said, my wife has a list of my bank and retirement accounts to make life easier if/when the inevitable occurs. She can ask to look in my phone at any time (that may surprise a few folks here, but is completely true).

People are going to have their secrets. Some are a bigger deal than others.

Since your marriage is non-official, IF it's important to you consider asking/confirming whether you're in his will.

[Prudence V]

16 hours ago, major_merrick said:

But I'm curious...in your relationships, how much secrecy do you think is acceptable?  Is there a different in "secrecy by omission" vs "secrecy by deceit?"  Is refusing access to an area or disclosing details on a "need to know" basis acceptable? 

We’re married by ante-nuptial contract, because we each have our own kids (none together) and each had our own assets when we got together, being older. So yeah, there are details of his assets I don’t know, and vice versa, though we both know the broad brush strokes and how to get hold of that info if we needed it. No parts of our houses are off-limits to each other - though he knows better than to mess with my books 🤬- and if he suddenly started locking his study or whatever I would wonder why. If I discovered he had a flat I didn’t know about, or such, I doubt I’d be “yeah whatever” about it. 

[vla1120]

I think (for me) you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned "intent." With my late husband, he preached that 100% full disclosure was the only way our marriage would work, and he had to have complete control of the finances. For awhile, I let that fly. Then, when I found out he had a secret savings account of his own, I put my foot down and took back the control of my own finances with separate accounts. So, if you are okay with separate finances and not being fully in the loop on every other detail of his life, I wouldn't worry too much about this, especially if his first wife was aware. Do you, as a family unit, have an emergency plan in the event something should happen to someone (especially your husband?) Is there someone who is privvy to all of the financial, real estate and business dealings? In the end, only you know what is acceptable to you, but maybe he really feels that, as long as one of his wives is aware of the apartment and storage unit, he covered his bases. If he's not keeping these from you with the intent of being underhanded and sneaky, then I wouldn't put too much thought into the issue.

[Happy Lemming]

22 hours ago, major_merrick said:

  Full STOP.  I'm like..... apartment? 

 

Did your husband have this apartment when your sister and her girlfriend came to stay with you??  I mean why cause you undo stress when there was a second independent location (away from the main house) he could have offered to them to use.

He knew that the two of them being there (at the main house) would make you uncomfortable, so why not let them utilize the apartment until they got back on their feet??

[DKT3]

omissions??? Nah, ole boy is living a secret life. 

I'm confused as to why you believe he wouldn't lie to you, many people would see this as lying. 

[major_merrick]

Haven't had a chance to talk to him about it yet, or really even ask follow-up questions.  He's been very busy today, and is normally so tired that he falls asleep within a minute or two of going to bed.  I doubt I'll have a chance for at least 24 hours.  I've asked the other girls, and so far the results have been mixed.

Wife #1: Knew about it, but forgot and doesn't care.  She says it predates me by several years. 

Wife #2: Pretty much same as #1.

Wife #4: "Why would he disclose details unnecessarily?  That's poor tactics." 

Wife #5 / My GF#1:  "So?"

My GF#2:  "Cool that he had a solution."  She added that the place doesn't look lived in at all. 

So far my inclination is to believe that he hasn't intentionally kept anything from me.  Our lives are busy enough that if he doesn't use the place, it could just fall through the cracks.  I'd kind of like to go there and just see what its like for myself, as the mystery is the biggest part of the issue for me.  His preparation for any issues that arise is somewhat comforting, but somewhat confusing.  But that's always been his nature even 20+ years ago. 

Our finances are probably more separate than most people's.  Most of that is due to me, as when we married I was pretty possessive of the money I'd saved.  He was cool with that, and actually paid some of my bills with his own money without me asking.  After keeping my stuff so jealously guarded and furthering my own business interests, I'd kind of feel like a jerk if I start asking about what he's got and where.  I suppose I could lead the discussion by explaining to him how much I've got and the value/status of my various properties.  Would that be an easy way to "slide into" the conversation? 

[Watercolors]

This sounds like one of those situations where a mountain (his apt) is made from a mowhill (he either told you and you forgot, the others knew and assumed you did too, or he didn’t tell you b/c he has nothing to hide). I would just drop it. It doesn’t seem like that big of a deal. 

[major_merrick]

Well, it took a week, but I got some more insight into the apartment thing. 

I gave it some time, and then asked my husband directly about it.  He was surprised I had been unaware - he thought I knew about it.  He told me he got the apartment years ago when his father was in the hospital for a while.  He wanted to be very close in case something happened, and also found it useful for other reasons.  The landlord owed him and his father a favor, and he rents it fairly cheap on a fixed rate.  Some of the time, he sub-lets the apartment at low cost, or lets people in need use it as a temporary place to stay.  I guess it gives him a certain amount of flexibility, which is understandable.  I got a quick look at it when we returned his backup vehicle to storage - pretty much nothing to see. 

I still have no idea what's in his office except a ton of file cabinets.  I still have no progress on any kind of conversation about assets or what is where, so I'm going to keep working on that. 

Just curious.... is it normal for people to be able to look at each other's phones/computers?  Like, having each other's passwords or no password?  Is that expected in a modern marriage, or is it assumed that some aspects of one's electronic life will be private.  Because.... LS is my "dirty little secret."

 

[Ruby Slippers]

I tell boyfriends I post on a message board, but never tell them which one. My last boyfriend wanted to know where I post, but I politely said no, explaining it's healthy to have SO-free places to talk/write. I would sometimes read him what people wrote about us here in my threads. Sometimes he thought it was smart, good advice. 

[Acacia98]

On 10/1/2020 at 4:18 PM, Fletch Lives said:

Well I know you have multiple partners. I'll just say it's not natural and can cause extra problems that are hard to solve.

The institution of monogamous marriage is not exactly "natural" either. We're talking about social arrangements that differ from one community to the next, not something that spontaneously happens in the wild. And yes, they all come with specific kinds of challenges.

[salparadise]

10 hours ago, major_merrick said:

Just curious.... is it normal for people to be able to look at each other's phones/computers?  Like, having each other's passwords or no password?  Is that expected in a modern marriage, or is it assumed that some aspects of one's electronic life will be private.

This will vary from one couple to the next, but I think most do not have access to each other's phones and computers, etc. My ex-wife tried a few times to convince me that she should have my passwords, and eventually got to the point of demanding. I told her no and didn't feel it necessary to explain. But that's because I knew it would end up being a huge headache. She couldn't touch a computer without phukking something up. I eventually locked her out of my computer account and told her to use the guest account (she also had a work computer, which I never touched). This was more about practicality than philosophy. With someone else I might choose to give them passwords and full access... if they were not the type to be compulsively nosing around in my stuff.

In my previous relationship we respected boundaries. My girlfriend once left her phone at my place, unlocked. I returned it to her without so much as glancing at it. I have no doubt that she would have done the same. This was all an unspoken understanding, and very much the opposite of the situation with my ex-wife.

As for your husband and the undisclosed apartment...  it seems to me, based on what I've read about your complex situation, that the presumption is that he calls his own shots and doesn't need consensus to make decisions. I think with most couples an undisclosed apartment would be a big problem. The assumption would be that it exists to facilitate a mistress or hookups, etc. But since he's free to do as he pleases, monogamy is not expected and finances are not mingled, and since other wives did know about it, I'd say it's a non-issue. In your situation it seems that nothing should be assumed and everything you care about should be negotiated.

 

 

[Happy Lemming]

1 hour ago, salparadise said:

 She couldn't touch a computer without phukking something up.

 

OMG!!  I had the same problem with my girlfriend.  A few years back, she was looking for a job and I let her use my good computer.  I don't know how she did it, but she messed it up.  So I built her one out of spare parts, just for her to use to look for a job.  That way, my good computer could remain off and if she messed up the spare computer, I could just re-format the hard drive and reload the software.

As far as phones, I don't touch her phone and she doesn't touch mine.  I have no desire to go through it.

My financial files are not locked up, but I don't think my girlfriend would know what she was looking at anyway.  There is one metal box label "In the event of my death" and my girlfriend knows to open that one if I get creamed on my sport-bike, as she gets everything.  It would probably be a good idea to sit her down and attempt to give her a cursory explanation of the different moving parts of my finances.

[mark clemson]

18 hours ago, major_merrick said:

Just curious.... is it normal for people to be able to look at each other's phones/computers?  Like, having each other's passwords or no password?  Is that expected in a modern marriage, or is it assumed that some aspects of one's electronic life will be private.

I think this varies from couple to couple. Some have been burned by a spouse and so want greater access. Some will happily give it, others not so much.

I think generally SOME aspects of one's life will be private as a spouse. For example my wife has little interest in what I might be thinking about when I masturbate, and I think we're BOTH perfectly happy to keep it that way.

I think with financial stuff, it's only fair to at a minimum let someone know what they might need to know in the event you suddenly pass away. Wills of course are helpful in that regard, but even with that, knowing what e.g. this vs. that retirement account might be (if you've multiple jobs) will save them a LOT of headache figuring things out.