Why do people believe in 'cupping?

[Watercolors]

Ever since the Olympic swimmer Michael Phelps made "cupping" popular with his tweets about having it done back in 2016, I've wondered why so many people tout it as legitimate? 

The whole integrative medicine industry operates on zero medical evidence, to begin with. There are literally hundreds of literature reviews in medical journals of small cupping studies that resulted in little to no evidence that there are any health benefits to having cupping done. But there's plenty of nasty side effects. 

For example, cupping causes the blood to clot. Clotted blood does not circulate. It can't. Yet, cupping practitioners claim that cupping helps the blood circulate better. Um, no science shows it clots the blood. Then, there's the whole burn-the-skin side effect which can inflame skin that has eczema or psoriasis. Not to mention, break the skin and introduce bacteria into the person's blood stream. 

Practitioners tout cupping as a thousands-year-old practice in China. Ok, so that is true. The Chinese have had pseudoscience practices for thousands of years. BUT, these same people dismiss the fact that the Chinese also poach wildlife for their body parts (ivory tusks, various organs, hooves, skin) for their TCM traditional medicines, which is also pseudo-science. So, they must be ok with the unethical practices involved in eliminating animal species so they can have an erection, smoother facial skin? 

I guess I just don't understand why people reject traditional medicine which operates in scientific evidence, and instead opt for pseudo science practices like cupping, which has no actual scientific evidence, or reveals any beneficial healing effects. It's all a placebo effect and brainwashing in my opinion. 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Watercolors

[BaileyB]

I hear you, about the lack of research. I’m usually very sceptical...

Still, I’ve had it done for a specific injury and it really seemed to help. I don’t know why, but there was a noticeable difference. 

Edited October 25, 2020 by BaileyB

[Watercolors]

3 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I hear you, about the lack of research. I’m usually very sceptical...

Still, I’ve had it done for a specific injury and it really seemed to help. I don’t know why, but there was a noticeable difference. 

Oh? What injury did your 'cupping' session treat? What was the noticeable difference that you felt afterward?

[Ruby Slippers]

A massage therapist once gave me a sample of this and I hated it. It hurt, left red marks on my skin, and I got nothing out of it. 

[major_merrick]

While I generally support alternative medicine, it is my belief that some methods amount to little more than quackery.  I've experienced cupping, and I put it in the same category as acupuncture and ear candling.....basically worthless.  Just because ancient people or Asian cultures practiced it doesn't automatically make it a good thing. 

[Ellener]

People will try to control what is not understood.

Personally I think people need to 'listen' to their body and adjust diet/exercise/spiritual practice/work/living environment etc to feel at the best. Holistic living.

8 hours ago, major_merrick said:

it is my belief that some methods amount to little more than quackery

I don't 'believe' in much of 'Western' medicine either, and have been misdiagnosed more than enough times to think it can also be useless in terms of general health.

During my lifetime I have watched people use modern medicine more and grow ever less healthy, it's almost like the medicine is supposed to simply support living an unhealthy lifestyle yet keep people alive. That's not health!

Antibiotics were a Godsend and have been prescribed to the point of ruining their usefulness and creating resistant bacteria.

If more evidence were needed, the pandemic has highlighted how helpless humans can be on a social economic level too- what is the point of having a healing technology if only a few privileged people have access to it?

That's the ancient way too.

 

 

[BaileyB]

11 hours ago, Watercolors said:

What injury did your 'cupping' session treat? What was the noticeable difference that you you felt? 

Biceps tendinitis. The pain went away... 

To be fair, my massage therapist who is also an athletic therapist offered to try it... I am sceptical so I would never pay for it specifically. But, she did it and it really did seem to help. I was very surprised, because I thought it was quackery. It does create a significant red circle but it goes away after a few days. 

Quick “google” search (not a true review of the literature) shows that the science is inconsistent. It’s definitely not proven, but it was noted that some of the studies that showed no result were small and had problems with design. There is much discussion that it “may” help for some musculoskeletal issues. Like any alternative therapy, I would be careful about claims that it is a “cure-all” and I would not spend money on it... but for what it’s worth, it did seem to help my shoulder. 

Edited October 25, 2020 by BaileyB

[Watercolors]

I read some of those studies like this one on herpes and this study that reviewed 223 articles written about cupping.

I tend to think that alternative methods of therapy like cupping, acupuncture and ear candling and juicing/fasting are quackery, and their popularity is due to their branding and marketing. People are tired of traditional medicine; hell, even skeptical of it due to the toxicity of some of the required medical treatments (chemotherapy comes to mind).

I lived in China and took part in drinking herbal concoctions to get rid of my pneumonia (didn't help), or had a physical therapist come to my apt to work on the ripped tendons on my foot after I tore it when I was pushed off a bus (he smoothed my foot in a goop of herbs and grasses and mud stating it would drain out the toxins but what I really needed was to have my foot wrapped in a bandage and given pain killers). I walked in crutches for 3 weeks around campus with a swollen foot and no alternative medicine cured it. Acupuncture did nothing for me then or now where its offered for free at my health clinic. So, I feel like, its the power of suggestion at work with these types of alternative medical treatments, that is why people feel better after they have a sessions of cupping etc. because they believe it worked, so they feel better. A placebo effect if you will.

I consider myself open minded and despite trying these (not cupping, I won't) other methods, that did nothing for me, I am very skeptical that they have any real medical impact.

[Wiseman2]

My favorite study was  'sham acupuncture'  They used the needles in a study for various maladies.

The way they did this is to have licensed acupuncturists apply needles in the usual points (meridians) and the placebo groups had needles applied in a random fashion. Surprisingly the real group reported a statistically significant improvement over the placebo group.

Whatever therapy it is it needs to hit the target and not be a charlatan or do someone harm.  Or for example complimenting traditional scientific medicine such as  a cancer patient getting some pain relieve from massage therapy. 

They also evaluate quack therapies. For some people without serious issues, the placebo effect in itself may be helpful.

Quote

The National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health (NCCIH) is a United States government agency which explores complementary and alternative medicine (CAM). It was initially created as the Office of Alternative Medicine (OAM), and renamed the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) before receiving its current name. NCCIH is one of the 27 institutes and centers that make up the National Institutes of Health (NIH) within the Department of Health and Human Services of the federal government of the United States.

Its stated mission is: "to define, through rigorous scientific investigation, the usefulness and safety of complementary and alternative medicine interventions and their roles in improving health and health care"

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Wiseman2

[BaileyB]

I’m very sceptical of alternative therapies because I feel like they prey on the most vulnerable. I’ve sat with far too many parents in my work who are desperate to find a cure, anything that helps, to heal their child. And sadly, there are people who promote unproven treatments who are very willing to offer false hope and take the hard earned dollars of desperate people. Just this past week, I sat with a family who literally have no income currently, and their only question was... “We have heard about a place, that offers treatment... do you think it is a good decision?” My answer was no - it’s very expensive and this family did not have the money to waste, and there is currently no treatment for their child’s injury. But still, how do you tell a parent who feels like they need to try everything to make their child better that they should say no to this new “treatment...” How do you take away their hope? It’s hard. 

[Ellener]

9 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

sadly, there are people who promote unproven treatments who are very willing to offer false hope and take the hard earned dollars of desperate people.

That is no different to any variety of medicine in the US. We always have to sign papers before treatment to say the outcome is not guaranteed! That the doctors will not accept responsibility! And that our payments will not be refunded if things go wrong or don't work as expected!

32 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

For some people without serious issues, the placebo effect in itself may be helpful.

Who knows. The body tends to heal itself in optimum conditions for many things.

I myself have used a lot of the encouragement videos of Louise Hay this year, whilst I learned to manage my disability, she developed a whole philosophy movement after she was diagnosed with an incurable cancer and lived to 90 when she died peacefully in her sleep; her ideas provided much of the hope for the first people who had Hiv in the years it was a death sentence. 

Hope is the thing with feathers, which perches in the soul...

[basil67]

58 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I’m very sceptical of alternative therapies because I feel like they prey on the most vulnerable. I’ve sat with far too many parents in my work who are desperate to find a cure, anything that helps, to heal their child. And sadly, there are people who promote unproven treatments who are very willing to offer false hope and take the hard earned dollars of desperate people. Just this past week, I sat with a family who literally have no income currently, and their only question was... “We have heard about a place, that offers treatment... do you think it is a good decision?” My answer was no - it’s very expensive and this family did not have the money to waste, and there is currently no treatment for their child’s injury. But still, how do you tell a parent who feels like they need to try everything to make their child better that they should say no to this new “treatment...” How do you take away their hope? It’s hard. 

My husband's cousin was always into pyramid scheme sales.  She was once part of group which sold snake oils and she called me suggesting she had a thing which would work well for autism.  I was horrified at the sales pitch of "as a parent, we want to do the best we can for our child".   I did not buy it.   But all around me there were parents doing GFCF, Chelation, selling their homes to afford 40hpw of ABA...all while their marriages fell down around their feet because of the intense focus for a cure or amazing improvement and not having time to care for partner or siblings.    When my son was entering his teens, I bought a book about teens and autism.  On the opening page, it had something along the lines of 'now your child is a teen, you've probably stopped trying all the cures...."  

On a different note, and aimed more broadly at the thread in general, humans have relied on traditional medicines for thousands of years.   And while it certainly doesn't have all the answers - and modern medicine has achieved a great many things - much of modern medicine is derived from flora, so there are some solid basics there.   For example, I'd have a quiet chuckle if someone who needed morphine from their doctor scoffed at all traditional medicine.  

Edited October 25, 2020 by basil67

[Watercolors]

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

My favorite study was  'sham acupuncture'  They used the needles in a study for various maladies.

The way they did this is to have licensed acupuncturists apply needles in the usual points (meridians) and the placebo groups had needles applied in a random fashion. Surprisingly the real group reported a statistically significant improvement over the placebo group.

Whatever therapy it is it needs to hit the target and not be a charlatan or do someone harm.  Or for example complimenting traditional scientific medicine such as  a cancer patient getting some pain relieve from massage therapy. 

They also evaluate quack therapies. For some people without serious issues, the placebo effect in itself may be helpful.

 

Oh, I believe in the placebo effect. It definitely helps patients who don't like medical procedures etc. But, I rely on music and art therapists for help where that is concerned for myself. Give me music and art therapy anytime, if I have to go to hospital or get an invasive procedure done. It will calm me down.

[Watercolors]

13 minutes ago, basil67 said:

My husband's cousin was always into pyramid scheme sales.  She was once part of group which sold snake oils and she called me suggesting she had a thing which would work well for autism.  I was horrified at the sales pitch of "as a parent, we want to do the best we can for our child".   I did not buy it.   But all around me there were parents doing GFCF, Chelation, selling their homes to afford 40hpw of ABA...all while their marriages fell down around their feet because of the intense focus for a cure or amazing improvement and not having time to care for partner or siblings.    When my son was entering his teens, I bought a book about teens and autism.  On the opening page, it had something along the lines of 'now your child is a teen, you've probably stopped trying all the cures...."  

On a different note, and aimed more broadly at the thread in general, humans have relied on traditional medicines for thousands of years.   And while it certainly doesn't have all the answers - and modern medicine has achieved a great many things - much of modern medicine is derived from flora, so there are some solid basics there.   For example, I'd have a quiet chuckle if someone who needed morphine from their doctor scoffed at all traditional medicine.  

I love the fact that traditional medicine has returned to its roots where flora is concerned. Now, I don't discount those methods b/c they actually have been proven to work in scientific studies and research. There are plants like chamomile - loose leaf - that i will seep in hot water bc it calms me down. Or, I will seep mint tea leaves in hot water for help with digestion. Now, those methods I trust. But something like sticking needles in meridians to calm me down, speed up my metabolism, or heal a muscle injury? I don't buy it.

Your husband's cousin sounds like a very colorful person! To say the least! Art, music, and equine therapy help autistic people. I've seen the benefits first hand.

Speaking of morphine, that stuff is scary as hell!

[BaileyB]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

My husband's cousin was always into pyramid scheme sales.  She was once part of group which sold snake oils and she called me suggesting she had a thing which would work well for autism.  I was horrified at the sales pitch of "as a parent, we want to do the best we can for our child".   I did not buy it.   But all around me there were parents doing GFCF, Chelation, selling their homes to afford 40hpw of ABA...all while their marriages fell down around their feet because of the intense focus for a cure or amazing improvement and not having time to care for partner or siblings.    When my son was entering his teens, I bought a book about teens and autism.  On the opening page, it had something along the lines of 'now your child is a teen, you've probably stopped trying all the cures...."  

So very true. 

[jspice]

Acupuncture and other alternative treatments have helped me where doctors couldn’t. I was walking around with a limp for 6 months after spraining my ankle very badly. No end to my pain was in sight. A student recommended acupuncture, saying “ I know you all don’t believe in it but just try it and see”

I went with an open mind. It took 4 treatments and I was back to the gym. 
 

Ive tried other treatments too with great success.
 

I’ve never had cupping done So I can’t speak to that. It’s unfair to call it “quackery” because you don’t believe in it. 
It has more than a placebo effect. What you’re saying here is exactly what a Korean man ranted about for an hour telling me how Western medicine wasn’t worth a damn. 

[basil67]

2 hours ago, Watercolors said:

But something like sticking needles in meridians to calm me down, speed up my metabolism, or heal a muscle injury? I don't buy it.  

The jury is still out as to the effectiveness of acupuncture.   I've found an interesting brief article which interviews five different scientists about acupuncture.  They have quite different opinions on what it can and can't do and the limitations of the research which has been done on it so far.   https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/5-scientists-weigh-in-on-acupuncture/

I'm happy to sit on the fence until it's been thoroughly disproved.   

[Watercolors]

11 minutes ago, basil67 said:

The jury is still out as to the effectiveness of acupuncture.   I've found an interesting brief article which interviews five different scientists about acupuncture.  They have quite different opinions on what it can and can't do and the limitations of the research which has been done on it so far.   https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/5-scientists-weigh-in-on-acupuncture/

I'm happy to sit on the fence until it's been thoroughly disproved.   

Oh, thank you for these articles. I will definitely peruse them. I want to believe that a 5,000 year old culture's TCM methods actually work. But, gah! So far, no substantial evidence to say that they do work. I just don't think I could handle the sensation of my back skin flaying off me from hot cups placed on top of me.

[major_merrick]

12 hours ago, Ellener said:

If more evidence were needed, the pandemic has highlighted how helpless humans can be on a social economic level too- what is the point of having a healing technology if only a few privileged people have access to it?

That's the ancient way too.

 

I think this year has revealed our society's engineered helplessness.  The best health practices are those that a person researches for themselves and then acquires the materials to do at home.  I think people who believe in cupping either haven't really experienced it, or are deceived by the placebo effect, or haven't figured out what's really going on for themselves.  Both quacks and professionals take advantage of people's ignorance and apathy.  The best materials and methods go to those who have common sense AND resources.  So it has always been, and so it shall ever be.  Caveat emptor. 

[Watercolors]

1 hour ago, jspice said:

Acupuncture and other alternative treatments have helped me where doctors couldn’t. I was walking around with a limp for 6 months after spraining my ankle very badly. No end to my pain was in sight. A student recommended acupuncture, saying “ I know you all don’t believe in it but just try it and see”

I went with an open mind. It took 4 treatments and I was back to the gym. 
 

Ive tried other treatments too with great success.
 

I’ve never had cupping done So I can’t speak to that. It’s unfair to call it “quackery” because you don’t believe in it. 
It has more than a placebo effect. What you’re saying here is exactly what a Korean man ranted about for an hour telling me how Western medicine wasn’t worth a damn. 

So, in 4 weeks (or 4 days?) of treatments your limp (a torn ligament assuming that's what it was), acupuncture cured you? That's interesting that it worked on you, but didn't work for my health issues.

I suppose I don't believe in cupping b/c I don't believe its modalities actually do anything other than damage the layer of skin, bruise the skin temporarily, and clot the blood where the cup touches.

So, a Korean man you know thinks Western medicine is quackery?

[Watercolors]

12 minutes ago, major_merrick said:

 

I think this year has revealed our society's engineered helplessness.  The best health practices are those that a person researches for themselves and then acquires the materials to do at home.  I think people who believe in cupping either haven't really experienced it, or are deceived by the placebo effect, or haven't figured out what's really going on for themselves.  Both quacks and professionals take advantage of people's ignorance and apathy.  The best materials and methods go to those who have common sense AND resources.  So it has always been, and so it shall ever be.  Caveat emptor. 

You have a valid point about our Western society's engineered helplessness. I blame that on the design of our medical system. It's not designed to empower patients. It's designed to overpower them, invalidate them, and punish them. But treat them? Nope. Sure, you can take a prescription, receive a treatment. But at what cost? Your health, that's what cost.

My dad's cancer was in remission but because his oncologist was a greedy fearmonger, he called my dad at home to tell my dad to come in for a maintenance dose of interferon (which my dad certainly didn't medically need!). Ten days later, my dad was dead from that dose of interferon because it gave him acute leukemia as a nasty side effect. So, my dad's cancer didn't kill him, an unnecessary treatment of a toxic drug killed my dad. And because his oncologist ordered it, we couldn't sue the oncologist for medical malpractice (which I tried to convince my mother to do but she refused).

So that is an example, of our society's engineered helplessness. Had my dad stood up to his oncologist and said, "No, I think I"ll get a second opinion" he'd possibly still be alive today. Patients don't advocate for themselves because doctors don't support that.

[Ellener]

3 hours ago, major_merrick said:

The best health practices are those that a person researches for themselves and then acquires the materials to do at home. 

I agree with that, and at least the medical research is all posted online these days.

 

[Ellener]

3 hours ago, Watercolors said:

Patients don't advocate for themselves because doctors don't support that.

Sorry about your dad.

 

[Gold Pile]

I trust Webmd when I research anything medical. I once heard great things about cupping from a massage therapist. She then tried to book me for an appointment for it. Sales gimmick is how I regard it.

[Ruby Slippers]

On 10/25/2020 at 8:31 PM, jspice said:

Acupuncture and other alternative treatments have helped me where doctors couldn’t.

Same here. Years ago I had really bad hip pain from too much running that would not go away. I saw a doctor in the U.S. and they just prescribed me pain pills, which I never took. Then I moved to Europe for a few years. I went to see a doctor there, and they took an X-ray, determined there was no structural issue, and referred me to an osteopath, a type of alternative medicine practitioner that emphasizes physical manipulation of the body's muscle tissue and bones. She studied the alignment of my body and would press on different pressure points, basically a gentle type of massage.

After a few visits, the pain that had been plaguing me for over a year was 100% gone. I stood up from her table and felt like I was floating. That woman was a true healer.