ZA Dater Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 This is probably a ridiculous topic but I have been thinking a lot about this lately because of the decision I made to give up on dating and rather focus on simply finding friends. Am I walking into a mire even greater than the one I walked out of? Reason I ask if over the years I have had albeit few female friends but after a certain amount of time those friendships just seemed to fizzle out in some instances I got the feeling they had just used me to get themselves some value or use my skills to help them but in the back of my mind I sometimes wonder if it was not more than that. Almost always I tried to date these people first but when no was no it seemed we were o.k with friends and I never really pushed for anything more. The thing about me is I think I am a good friend in that I tend to listen well, be very supportive and I am often described as "kind". Qualities which do not work for dating but do seem to have some friend like appeal. After throwing in the towel with dating I would say my life feels a bit better but the loneliness remains but in the past I simply go out and help someone in some way or another, go out and have a random conversation, even go to a work meeting and then feel like I have some purpose at lease. Should I look to try befriend women on the basis I am expecting nothing at all, just go and be me, the "kind" me. Obviously there is some common ground in what I look for in a friend to what I look for in a date but I am quite good at simply differentiating the two. The next question is do women really want guy friends? In my case lets call the friendship compartmentalized, in the sense its usually I serve some purpose to them and in exchange I get someone who chats to me and actually gives me some emotional attention. Its never really "well come over for dinner with me and bf and friends", its "lets meet up and discuss some idea". I don't have any answers here but perhaps some of you have have where I am at the moment? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
central Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 I have had female friends all my life. A couple of them go back 50 years. And I make new friends, some of whom are women. I hang out with them when possible, some regularly, some every few years if we happen to be in the same town. While I help out friends with things, I do not do more for female friends than for male friends - in other words, I don't let them take advantage of me. Neither am I a so-called beta orbiter - it's a real friendship or we're not staying friends. And yes, sometimes I meet their bf or husband, and they meet my gf or wife. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 women want male friends that are castrated. don't be fooled. start the relationship off as a lover and not a friend. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 I have plenty of female friends and in most cases it has never turned into more than that. Link to post Share on other sites
Ruby Slippers Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 I don't have guy friends. They always secretly or not-so-secretly hope to get lucky with you, making it weird. 7 Link to post Share on other sites
Mystery4u Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 No, complete waste of time. Link to post Share on other sites
MeadowFlower Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 I don't have many friends over my life as a general rule, guy or girl. If I do have a guy that is a friend, there is a chance that I like him. I don't think I would like to have guy friends that are 'just friends', unless maybe it was super casual. But it would depend. Link to post Share on other sites
MeadowFlower Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 7 hours ago, alphamale said: start the relationship off as a lover and not a friend. Why?? Friendship is a good foundation for a relationship. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Wiseman2 Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 Unless you live in some sort of severely restricted society, where it's prohibited to talk to women, it's best to be able to relate to all kinds of people on all kinds of levels. Neighbors, co-workers, people you know through groups, clubs, interests, sports, volunteering, etc. If you can't be friendly or talk to the opposite sex, there's a problem. Now, seeking out friends and seeking out dating are completely different things. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Happy Lemming Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 10 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said: I don't have guy friends. They always secretly or not-so-secretly hope to get lucky with you... 100% Agree... I can be friendly towards a female neighbor or female business associate, but they are not true friends. A while back, I did briefly date one woman (who dumped me) but wanted to maintain a friendship (not an FWB arrangement). I have no idea why she pushed for this platonic friendship, but I said "No thank you, I had enough friends". 1 Link to post Share on other sites
salparadise Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 16 hours ago, ZA Dater said: The next question is do women really want guy friends? In my case lets call the friendship compartmentalized, in the sense its usually I serve some purpose to them and in exchange I get someone who chats to me and actually gives me some emotional attention. Its never really "well come over for dinner with me and bf and friends", its "lets meet up and discuss some idea". I've been through attempts at friendship with several women in recent years. I'll skip the anecdotes and go straight to the conclusion –– it can work if you have two individuals who hold firm internal boundaries, are not physically or emotionally attracted, have active social lives elsewhere, and yet have some common interest or goal around which a friendship develops. This is pretty unusual. More often there is an underlying motive on one person's part, even though it might not be conscious. Sooner or later it fails due to unfulfilled expectations. It's very hard to circumvent the biological imperative. 7 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said: I don't have guy friends. They always secretly or not-so-secretly hope to get lucky with you, making it weird. I find the same is often true of female friends. They select male "friends" by the same criteria as those they're interested in dating, then it goes on for awhile and they're bewildered as to why you aren't trying to convert. Even if they don't admit to wanting more, they want you to want them and they want to be pursued. It gets messy. There's one woman that I've tried twice to maintain a platonic friendship with. First time she sent a long email confessing feelings and she hoped I'd respond positively (and begin a relationship). We took a break and about a year later started hanging out again as friends. She said that she was over it and everything would be fine, but she was basically pursuing (unspoken, of course) and developed a bunch of unrealistic expectations. She finally got mad and accused me of not holding up my end, which really meant not treating her like a girlfriend. It's sad. I should've known that second attempt was never going to work, but I tried. She was truly someone whose company I enjoyed, but was not attracted to sexually. Apparently she was a hottie in her younger days and all the men were trying to get with her ––she could have anyone she fancied, always her choice. That paradigm was integrated, she didn't know any other way. She had only related to men through the pursuit/resistance mode, and other women were competitive and jealous, so not much experience at being just friends. I'm just saying all of this to illustrate the point of how there are often [usually] underlying expectations. I know it's not always the case. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Ruby Slippers Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 4 hours ago, Wiseman2 said: If you can't be friendly or talk to the opposite sex, there's a problem. Being friendly is not being friends. I'm friendly with male colleagues, neighbors, the guy who mows my yard, etc. But I'm not friends with them. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
central Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 12 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said: I don't have guy friends. They always secretly or not-so-secretly hope to get lucky with you, making it weird. Sometimes, that's true. Some of my female friends are far too unattractive for me to harbor such ideas, though. They are friends for many reasons other than appearance. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Fletch Lives Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 We could be friends Ruby! 🙂 I have some female friends. I'm either a friend or backup guy to them or sometimes both. Keeping in mind that sometimes backup guy means they think I'm a good catch but are not attracted to me. It's complicated, lol Like Ruby Slippers said, a lot of guys have trouble being pure friends because they often like them more than a friend. I have this one friend who looks like Meg Ryan.............we met and dated briefly but I'm an empath and realized that she was not attracted to me and simply saw me as a good catch and had no other better prospects on the horizon at the time, so she dated me. So I suggested we be just friends and we are. But I will tell you, that woman still saw me as a candidate for a boyfriend for the following year. I think now, finally, she has given up hope, lol! So don't ever tell me men and women are different - they are mostly the same because as a man, I've had plenty of orbiters! If I'm single and we both have romantic feelings for each other but it's not a match in some way, I can't do it. Link to post Share on other sites
Ruby Slippers Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, Fletch Lives said: I'm an empath So am I. So it would never work. If you didn't have a crush on me, I'd probably have a crush on you I also date men who are not friends with any women. So much cleaner and simpler. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites
lana-banana Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 Of course it's possible. Part of being an adult is looking at someone and being able to recognize their good qualities while also recognizing there's no sexual or romantic future there. I have plenty of straight male and gay female friends where sexual tension has never been an issue. I wouldn't date someone who had no friends of the opposite sex. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
MeadowFlower Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said: I also date men who are not friends with any women. So much cleaner and simpler. I don't think that a guy should have a girl who is his best friend if he is in a relationship with someone else. To me that's essentially a relationship. It doesn't mean you aren't friendly to people of the opposite sex. But when it comes to a close, heart felt friendship, then no. Edited October 17, 2020 by MeadowFlower 1 Link to post Share on other sites
mark clemson Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 Yes men and women can be actual friends. Yes women are often perfectly happy to have guy friends who are just friends. Some men are happy with that arrangement with some women as well. You can have a female friend who is a great conversationalist or with whom you have shared interests with but have little sexual attraction to or who you think is fine, but you or she is already taken and loyal to the current partner. Happens all the time. It IS possible to move from the friend zone to the "boyfriend zone" as well, IF a woman develops feelings for a friend over time AND he is available/amenable. Not extremely common IMO but certainly happens. However: 1) If the man is actually mostly romantically interested but plays at being a friend, that is a "beta orbiter", not an actual friend. Many women will see right through this but are happy to keep the guy around as a "friend" anyhow (some will not). I don't think the beta orbiter's chances at moving into the BF zone are very good in most cases. Something is off or is interfering or else he would be in the BF zone. 2) If a man makes romantic overtures but is "friendzoned" it's IMO generally unlikely that he will ever move into the BF zone from there, so THAT is a waste of time, if BF is his only interest. Bottom line is, if you want to be a friend, be a real, actual friend. It might eventually develop into something else if the woman warms up to you, but the chances are not super high, so this isn't a particularly great strategy. Link to post Share on other sites
mark clemson Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 13 hours ago, MeadowFlower said: Why?? Friendship is a good foundation for a relationship. Yes, it can be, but I think generally men want to move quicker into the physical aspect of the relationship if it's going to be one. So generally speaking I believe most don't start friendships intending for them to become romantic partnerships unless they have trouble dating. Some women may operate differently? There is nothing inherently wrong with that IMO - "try before you buy". But I'm not sure men who have a relatively easy time finding GFs have the patience for forming a real, true friendship (taking several months at least, presumably) in the hopes that it becomes more. Link to post Share on other sites
Author ZA Dater Posted October 18, 2020 Author Share Posted October 18, 2020 20 hours ago, mark clemson said: Bottom line is, if you want to be a friend, be a real, actual friend. It might eventually develop into something else if the woman warms up to you, but the chances are not super high, so this isn't a particularly great strategy. I am not interested in anything but being friends. I agree with you over time I have learnt you simply cannot go from friend to BF, well its rather difficult, a road paved with good intention but full of land mines.. Link to post Share on other sites
Author ZA Dater Posted October 18, 2020 Author Share Posted October 18, 2020 On 10/17/2020 at 3:41 PM, salparadise said: –– it can work if you have two individuals who hold firm internal boundaries, are not physically or emotionally attracted, have active social lives elsewhere, and yet have some common interest or goal around which a friendship develops. This is pretty unusual. More often there is an underlying motive on one person's part, even though it might not be conscious. Sooner or later it fails due to unfulfilled expectations. It's very hard to circumvent the biological imperative. That is pretty much what I am looking for now. I have found it from time to time and when its good its very good but like like a good chocolate cake its better if you do not have it too often. I suppose its rather typical that I am looking for something unusual. Link to post Share on other sites
It'sSmiley Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 Women and men can be friends as long as there is no attraction to one another, otherwise there is always an ulterior motive with one party in the friendship. I gave up on having any friends and would rather be on these forums and sit alone all day. I'm much better off. Link to post Share on other sites
CautiouslyOptimistic Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 In high school, college, and in your twenties? Yes. As you get older, I really think this is more difficult and less realistic. Just my experience. Link to post Share on other sites
Author ZA Dater Posted October 19, 2020 Author Share Posted October 19, 2020 9 hours ago, CautiouslyOptimistic said: In high school, college, and in your twenties? Yes. As you get older, I really think this is more difficult and less realistic. Just my experience. So basically the best option is to simply be alone. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
FMW Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 5 hours ago, ZA Dater said: So basically the best option is to simply be alone. Of course not. Just be realistic and honest with yourself in your interactions with women and don't expect more than simple friendship. If something else develops, great, but never count on it. Enjoy the friendship and don't set yourself up for being hurt by hoping there will be more. And be clear with any woman that you only want friendship if that's how you feel. I'm a woman, I've always had guy friends. I really enjoy the differences in how men think about things, I like talking with them and getting their opinions on things. A lot of the time, sure, there is an undercurrent of being open to more, but since I only choose friends that I really connect with, it's never been an issue to be clear about where things stand. When one of the people is in a relationship, it does makes a difference, unless you're friends with both partners. Partners aren't always accepting of their SO being too close with someone of the opposite sex (nor should they be). I keep in touch with my single guy friends, but I try to incorporate them into what I'm doing with the guy I'm seeing. Mostly we do socialize with other couples. But there is no reason single people can't have friendships with the opposite sex. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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