Refusing to Jump to Accusations Ended Friendship?

[vwisme]

Warning of sensitive topic below dealing with sexual assault 
 

So friend (we'll call them A)  and I got into an argument and I'm wanting some perspective.

There's an acquaintance of mine who was recently accused on social media of a rape that happened years ago. As soon as I found out I let mutual friends know and made sure they were cautious around him. From the go I've said that if this is true then justice needs to be served. No question. 

Well tonight, on social media, more women have come out (anon) and accused him of more and apparently he was charged for sexual assault years ago (unrelated to this incident). With that being said, A and I got into a discussion about the whole situation and for some reason it ended our friendship.

I've publicly maintained a middle road and chosen not to say anything until more information has surfaced. My opinion is not necessary here and I see no reason to involve myself. I've kept informed but refused to get involved on a public level. So here is our text convo back (TLDR version):

Me: "If this is all true, I know some friends that are going to be deeply hurt" 

A: "IF? There are 5 women. Do you need video evidence?" 

Me: "I'm not saying it isn't true. If there are 4+ women accusing then it's probably true. But all we have is one side. The charges and all are very telling though" 

A: "If it takes 4 women being raped before you believe one story then maybe we shouldn't be friends" 

Me: "You don't know how I feel. I haven't told you and you're just watching this play out on social media. I'm having conversations with people in the know and I refuse to jump on the social media mob. If he is guilty then lock him up and throwaway the key. Don't twist my words. I've called mutual friends I know personally to warn them and different organizations he works with so they are well aware. People that are actually connected and know what's going on. If you think we shouldn't be friends then cool. Take care" 

A: "Sounds good" 

I'm pretty pissed because at no point have I defended the accused nor invalidated the accusers. But maybe I'm missing something and could have handled it better. Do I think he’s guilty? Probably. But I have no say and see no reason to insert my opinion. A and I aren't super close like we used to be so I'm okay not being friends. I just think it's terrible that this went so far left. 

Any and all advice would be truly appreciated. If I should apologize for not taking a definitive stance at this point then I can do that. Any and all perspectives would be great. I personally think this is blown way out of proportion.

A and I already had tension due to my recent break up and she feeling I should have cut out the toxic girl beforehand so idk if this is a spillover from that. 
 

I genuinely hate this drama and between my recent breakup and this, I’m starting to wonder if I’m the cause of it

Edited October 21, 2020 by vwisme

[carhill]

I remember our marriage counselor asked me one time if I'd rather be right or in a relationship, if I had to choose. At the time I was very focused on caregiving and getting everything right and pretty combative in general from that process so refused to make the choice, figuring I could be right and in a relationship. As it worked out, my mom died and my divorce was final in the same month. That's how life worked out.

So, do you want to be right or in a relationship, here a friendship? There is no correct or incorrect answer, only your answer. It's not the answer that's important, rather the journey to get to it.

Editorially, I have this female friend who calls me at all hours of the night and often shares such drama and exclaims she has no friends. I remind her she has a husband who is there every day, adult children who love and support her, and a crowd of people she often talks about glowingly. Sometimes that gets her through her pity party, other times not. If she wasn't my best friend's kid I wouldn't likely spend the time but I do value the relationship more than being right, in her case. YMMV.

 

[Ellener]

30 minutes ago, carhill said:

female friend who calls me at all hours of the night

When I developed anxiety disorder my friends quickly told me, this is too overwhelming, we have to set some boundaries here, so they wrote to me loads with encouragement instead. I'm still close with my best friends because of that, people I've known a long time. The 'phone is not our friend in a panic attack! 📵

@vwisme I stood by a colleague some years ago who was accused of sexual assault, I stepped away as time went on because whether he was guilty or not I liked him less and less. His own stupid unprofessional attitude and behaviour had dropped him in the situation.

3 hours ago, vwisme said:

I genuinely hate this drama and between my recent breakup and this, I’m starting to wonder if I’m the cause of it

Not the cause, but you can take a break from any people who are stressful for a while. Set some boundaries!

'Learn to live an ordinary calm happy day' is what someone said to me a few years' ago. Or if you must have adrenalin- find it in healthy, productive situations.

[Wiseman2]

Social media is not a courtroom. However if you enjoy debating, then there are consequences. This friend, doesn't seem like much of a friend if a random debate about social media posts/ volatile topics ends in an explosion.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Wiseman2

[ajequals]

I think what happened is a good thing for you. The problem today is this mob mentality has ruined people's ability to be rational and wait to see if something is true. all these riots are a perfect example. Now all these states want us to pay for their created issues.  Remain who you are , a desirable member of society 

[vwisme]

4 hours ago, Ellener said:

When I developed anxiety disorder my friends quickly told me, this is too overwhelming, we have to set some boundaries here, so they wrote to me loads with encouragement instead. I'm still close with my best friends because of that, people I've known a long time. The 'phone is not our friend in a panic attack! 📵

@vwisme I stood by a colleague some years ago who was accused of sexual assault, I stepped away as time went on because whether he was guilty or not I liked him less and less. His own stupid unprofessional attitude and behaviour had dropped him in the situation.

Not the cause, but you can take a break from any people who are stressful for a while. Set some boundaries!

'Learn to live an ordinary calm happy day' is what someone said to me a few years' ago. Or if you must have adrenalin- find it in healthy, productive situations.

That is a great way to look at it. I'll take this season as a season to learn how to set healthy boundaries. I think threatening someone with ending the friendship in a situation like this is a good enough reason to end it. I don't plan on reaching out and have deleted her contact. I believe in respectfully disagreeing. Thank you. 

[vwisme]

3 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Social media is not a courtroom. However if you enjoy debating, then there are consequences. This friend, doesn't seem like much of a friend if a random debate about social media posts/ volatile topics ends in an explosion.

I would have never pegged her as the type but here we are. You are right. She isn't much of a friend for this. Thank you for your wisdom. 

[vwisme]

3 hours ago, ajequals said:

I think what happened is a good thing for you. The problem today is this mob mentality has ruined people's ability to be rational and wait to see if something is true. all these riots are a perfect example. Now all these states want us to pay for their created issues.  Remain who you are , a desirable member of society 

Exactly. While I think there's something to be said for standing up for victims, ending a friendship because you want to wait for more information is asinine 

[vwisme]

4 hours ago, carhill said:

I remember our marriage counselor asked me one time if I'd rather be right or in a relationship, if I had to choose. At the time I was very focused on caregiving and getting everything right and pretty combative in general from that process so refused to make the choice, figuring I could be right and in a relationship. As it worked out, my mom died and my divorce was final in the same month. That's how life worked out.

So, do you want to be right or in a relationship, here a friendship? There is no correct or incorrect answer, only your answer. It's not the answer that's important, rather the journey to get to it.

Editorially, I have this female friend who calls me at all hours of the night and often shares such drama and exclaims she has no friends. I remind her she has a husband who is there every day, adult children who love and support her, and a crowd of people she often talks about glowingly. Sometimes that gets her through her pity party, other times not. If she wasn't my best friend's kid I wouldn't likely spend the time but I do value the relationship more than being right, in her case. YMMV.

 

I can be defensive at times so you make a very very valid point. To be honest, I don't care to be right here. I think for me, the statement "maybe we shouldn't be friends" is not one of someone wanting to work through things but someone who is holding a carrot of friendship over my head. And that's a huge boundary for me. That's not communicating "hey, we don't see eye to eye on this and I want to better understand where you're coming from" or "I care for you but let's agree to disagree". That's the big issue for me

 

[CaraGrace]

8 hours ago, vwisme said:

If I should apologize for not taking a definitive stance at this point then I can do that.

You don't need to apologize. I think how you handled the case of the person being accused of sexual assault shows that you are a more mature and rational person than your friend. I think nowadays many people are very self-righteous, they take the moral high ground not by taking action that actually matters but by saying empty words, taking stance out loud and they think anyone who doesn't take a side is a fence-sitter who can't tell right from wrong. But the fact is, things are not just black or white, not to mention, as you said, sometimes our opinions are not needed. And even if we have a certain viewpoint doesn't mean that we have to force others to declare theirs, and even if someone has a viewpoint that is different from ours doesn't mean that it is 100% wrong. But many people have a too simplified mindset to understand that. 

 

1 hour ago, vwisme said:

That is a great way to look at it. I'll take this season as a season to learn how to set healthy boundaries. I think threatening someone with ending the friendship in a situation like this is a good enough reason to end it. I don't plan on reaching out and have deleted her contact. I believe in respectfully disagreeing.

I once tried to talk with a friend about how her constant jabs and her tendency to put me down hurt my feelings as a way to set some boundaries. But her reaction was denying and blaming it all on my overthinking and over-interpretation of her words. To calm her down and take half responsibility of whatever issue that was happening between us, I admitted and apologized for my overthinking and sensitivity. But she didn't care to meet me half way and even turned it against me, asked me to seek professional help for being too sensitive. She said I could say whatever I wanted but she had nothing to add or to respond, nor would she change or stop those behaviours I pointed out, and then accused me of taking pleasure in hurting her by saying these things (truth?) to her. And then she deleted all our photos on her social media. I think it's pretty much like you said, it's such action that give us a good enough reason to end the friendship. Sometimes it's moment like this that gives us an opportunity to see the true colour of someone we've known and befriended for years. It's always about respect. 

Edited October 21, 2020 by CaraGrace

[elaine567]

Rape is a trigger for many women whether they have been raped or not.
Many rape victims go unheard or unbelieved and the perpetrators regularly go unpunished, so many women  get upset about that fact.
There is an assumption most men do not "get it", and downplaying and minimising and taking the man's side is not uncommon in the male species...
With all that as a background, you decided to enter the fray with a big fat "IF" which to some women is a red rag to a bull.
"Victims need heard not blamed..."
You were then seen as aligning yourself with  the perpetrator, that was unacceptable to your female friend and she cut you dead...

Seems to me many people are very black and white, there is little room for discussion. 
"You are either for me or against me."
With your middle of the road, innocent till proved guilty stance on the perpetrator, you were seen as being FOR the perpetrator and because she is FOR the victims, she doesn't now want to be your friend...

 

[mark clemson]

Some people have "triggers" that make it difficult for them to see things too clearly due to the emotions involved. You conceded that the accusations were probably true (which they probably are). She was too triggered to allow you to play devil's advocate a bit for the sake of analysis. I think you "pushed the wrong button" by trying to take the other side of the argument with this particular topic and clerly she is angry enough to be willing to end the friendship.

She may feel "good riddance" as well. IF you care to, you can text her in a couple of days and see if she is up for "reconciliation". I'd say there is a 50/50 chance. She may not be willing to concede there is anything more to discuss than her view; some people can get like that about these things.

[MsJayne]

Many years ago a young woman in the small town I grew up in came forward and accused the headmaster of the local school of interfering with her when she was a child at the school. Her own young daughter was about to start school there and that triggered something in her and she decided to speak up. The town was divided by it, and one of the doubters was my best friend of 20+ years. Even when a number of other women who had attended the school came forward, she still wouldn't believe it. She was basically accusing 7 women of being liars, and she was siding with a paedophile. This did enormous damage to our friendship because I found myself thinking her not only stupid, but also questioning her moral compass. It changed my whole perception of who she was, and I no longer respected her, even started judging her for some of her own questionable actions over the years because I now saw her as a traitor to the sisterhood - the type of woman who throws other women under the bus in order to curry favour with men. While I believe in reserving judgement until you have all the available facts, in cases like this I think you do have all the facts you need. No woman voluntarily reveals being raped - it only intensifies the humiliation and degradation, the anger has to outweigh the fear of public backlash. Your own response, warning friends, etc, is evidence enough that you believe the accusations, so perhaps your ex-friend sees your reservations about having a public opinion as rather treacherous, and also very weak and hypocritical.  Evil flourishes when good men do nothing, and doing nothing includes fence-sitting by pretending that you need a video recording of the rapes before you believe it. This is why your friend cut you loose. Half of what's wrong with Western culture is the number of people who turn a blind eye to the abuse of others and call it minding their own business. 

Edited October 22, 2020 by MsJayne

[LivingWaterPlease]

I don't

13 hours ago, vwisme said:

 

There's an acquaintance of mine who was recently accused on social media of a rape that happened years ago. As soon as I found out I let mutual friends know and made sure they were cautious around him...

Well tonight, on social media, more women have come out (anon) and accused him of more and apparently he was charged for sexual assault years ago (unrelated to this incident). With that being said, A and I got into a discussion about the whole situation and for some reason it ended our friendship.

 

 

To me, this is where you were unwise.

Accusations of criminal behavior posted on social media are nothing I'd be a part of in any way, including informing friends to be cautious of someone so accused. The women involved need to contact the authorities if they were raped.

 

 

[basil67]

4 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Some people have "triggers" that make it difficult for them to see things too clearly due to the emotions involved. You conceded that the accusations were probably true (which they probably are). She was too triggered to allow you to play devil's advocate a bit for the sake of analysis. I think you "pushed the wrong button" by trying to take the other side of the argument with this particular topic and clerly she is angry enough to be willing to end the friendship.

She may feel "good riddance" as well. IF you care to, you can text her in a couple of days and see if she is up for "reconciliation". I'd say there is a 50/50 chance. She may not be willing to concede there is anything more to discuss than her view; some people can get like that about these things.

I couldn't agree more.   This woman may well have a past which contains sexual assault or rape of herself or someone close to her.  A lot of us do.    Would you view her stance differently if you knew that she was speaking from a place of hurt?   

 

[Ellener]

24 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Would you view her stance differently if you knew that she was speaking from a place of hurt?   

I think that's similar to saying people who have been victimised are always and only victims, and incapable of rational communication...it's not okay to do a witch-hunt or pressure other people's opinions against someone whatever has happened in one's past.

That's not campaigning on an issue, it's gossip and a personal attack. There are appropriate places to advocate for and support victims of crime, or to report crimes.

1 hour ago, LivingWaterPlease said:

Accusations of criminal behavior posted on social media are nothing I'd be a part of in any way

I agree. 

Nothing good can come of it. It's slander and defamation to post unproven accusations, or could prejudice and stop a fair court case later. 

Steer clear @vwisme is what I'd do.

 

[Lotsgoingon]

Don't twist my words. I've called mutual friends I know personally to warn them and different organizations he works with so they are well aware. People that are actually connected and know what's going on. If you think we shouldn't be friends then cool. Take care" 

A: "Sounds good" 

According to your transcript here, YOU are the one who volunteered to not be friends. She only said "sounds good." Which is something you would say just to sound tough and get off the phone. 

That's a self-destructive move you made there. If you like this person and wanted (or want) to stay their friend, you NEVER suggest ending the friendship. Let them suggest that if that's on their mind. Friends can disagree ... profoundly ... they can agree to disagree and work to avoid certain topics ... lots of friendship involves people NOT talking about subjects that profoundly divide them. 

Here's another line that struck me as bizarre.  Me: "If this is all true, I know some friends that are going to be deeply hurt" 

If this is all true, the multiple women he assaulted have already been deeply hurt--violently so in the moment, and emotionally so in the aftermath. Sounds like you're saying friends of this guy (who like him and trust) are just in for some horrible suffering if this is true. Uh ... they'll face confusion. I've seen no studies showing friends of perpetrators suffer depression and anxiety and hyper-vigilance and PTST like sexual assault victims suffer.

Imagine someone saying: John is accused of torturing and maiming five people. And then imagine someone responding if that's true some friends are gonna be upset. Much better to say "I'm shocked and devastated by these allegations. I'm stunned." Even to say "I know this guy well. I don't disbelieve the women. But this is someone I trust. My head is spinning."

It's widely understood that people are not going to be imprisoned until they are charged, go to trial and get convicted. That's understood. So you don't have to say that and there's no point in saying that ... and in all other crimes, victims and families and friends don't wait til conviction before they get angry at the accused person. It's legal to accuse people of assault even if they are not charged. Yes, social media is out of control, vicious and sometimes toxic ... AND ... yes, a lot of rapists and assaulters have been outed on social media.  

So you volunteered to end the friendship and you indicated the real victims of proven assault allegations would be friends of the alleged rapist. I don't think you meant either of those points. But that's how I'm reading your words. Communication problem here? Are you really saying what you think?

Listen, I get it. You're not alone. We all have this stereotype of assault perpetrators as a type with horns who are obvious to pick out and the vast majority of sexual assaults are intimate, by someone the person knows and knows well! And even though we all have heard that, there's a part of our brain that thinks, Oh, no ... no one I like and am close--no one who is part of my network-- could be a rapist.  So when we learn that someone we know and trust has been accused, yes it's disorienting. Confusing. And puts friends on the hot seat. That's fine ... and it's OK to go with your conscience if you don't yet want to join in on the accusations. But protect yourself with some more skillful use of words. I happen to be someone who believes it's OK to remain friends with people who do horrible things. Doesn't mean you oppose justice or oppose them being convicted. And the closer you are to someone, sorta the more right you have to stand by their side. This is all tricky and messy and confusing. 

Next time go with something more accurate like "I'm speechless. I know this guy well. I'm speechless." And then be silent. 

[basil67]

Deleted

   

Edited October 22, 2020 by basil67

[vwisme]

@CaraGrace Thank you for your response and understanding.

[vwisme]

13 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Rape is a trigger for many women whether they have been raped or not.
Many rape victims go unheard or unbelieved and the perpetrators regularly go unpunished, so many women  get upset about that fact.
There is an assumption most men do not "get it", and downplaying and minimising and taking the man's side is not uncommon in the male species...
With all that as a background, you decided to enter the fray with a big fat "IF" which to some women is a red rag to a bull.
"Victims need heard not blamed..."
You were then seen as aligning yourself with  the perpetrator, that was unacceptable to your female friend and she cut you dead...

Seems to me many people are very black and white, there is little room for discussion. 
"You are either for me or against me."
With your middle of the road, innocent till proved guilty stance on the perpetrator, you were seen as being FOR the perpetrator and because she is FOR the victims, she doesn't now want to be your friend...

 

I think that's the toughest part about it all. At best, they are innocent of accusations BUT there is some extremely shady situations they've put themselves in. And that's the best of the best in my viewpoint. At worst...I don't think I need to say. I've never been for predators and to be seen as aligning with one stinks but it's not my job to be judge, jury, and executioner. Thank you for your response. 

[vwisme]

13 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Some people have "triggers" that make it difficult for them to see things too clearly due to the emotions involved. You conceded that the accusations were probably true (which they probably are). She was too triggered to allow you to play devil's advocate a bit for the sake of analysis. I think you "pushed the wrong button" by trying to take the other side of the argument with this particular topic and clerly she is angry enough to be willing to end the friendship.

She may feel "good riddance" as well. IF you care to, you can text her in a couple of days and see if she is up for "reconciliation". I'd say there is a 50/50 chance. She may not be willing to concede there is anything more to discuss than her view; some people can get like that about these things.

I don't think this is a friendship I care to continue. The moment she threatened it by saying "maybe this is why we shouldn't be friends" was the moment the friendship was over. It was just a huge boundary crossed for me and I see no reason to reengage in that. 

In all honesty, there is a part of me that hates this is how it went and would love to reconcile but I'm also a recovered codependent and idk if this is old habits/traits or a genuine want to reconcile. 

[vwisme]

11 hours ago, MsJayne said:

Many years ago a young woman in the small town I grew up in came forward and accused the headmaster of the local school of interfering with her when she was a child at the school. Her own young daughter was about to start school there and that triggered something in her and she decided to speak up. The town was divided by it, and one of the doubters was my best friend of 20+ years. Even when a number of other women who had attended the school came forward, she still wouldn't believe it. She was basically accusing 7 women of being liars, and she was siding with a paedophile. This did enormous damage to our friendship because I found myself thinking her not only stupid, but also questioning her moral compass. It changed my whole perception of who she was, and I no longer respected her, even started judging her for some of her own questionable actions over the years because I now saw her as a traitor to the sisterhood - the type of woman who throws other women under the bus in order to curry favour with men. While I believe in reserving judgement until you have all the available facts, in cases like this I think you do have all the facts you need. No woman voluntarily reveals being raped - it only intensifies the humiliation and degradation, the anger has to outweigh the fear of public backlash. Your own response, warning friends, etc, is evidence enough that you believe the accusations, so perhaps your ex-friend sees your reservations about having a public opinion as rather treacherous, and also very weak and hypocritical.  Evil flourishes when good men do nothing, and doing nothing includes fence-sitting by pretending that you need a video recording of the rapes before you believe it. This is why your friend cut you loose. Half of what's wrong with Western culture is the number of people who turn a blind eye to the abuse of others and call it minding their own business. 

I think this is a great response and I agree on so many statements that you've stated here. Evil flourishes when good men do nothing is a great quote and I agree. Here's the thing, I'm not accusing anyone of being liars. Nor am I letting the perp run off. I have stated numerous times to people in the know that the perp should be face all the consequences coming to them. 

Let me be very clear that "doing nothing" today does not mean that tomorrow that doesn't change. This is an ongoing story and unfortunately I am linked to it to some degree. So doing nothing was never a choice from the beginning. But my actions and words differ do to where I am in said link. 

Again, I think what you're saying is true on so many levels but I am not siding with the perp here. Never said that was the case. I've personally reached out to organizations they are involved with and asked if they knew and why he was still involved. 

[vwisme]

9 hours ago, LivingWaterPlease said:

I don't

To me, this is where you were unwise.

Accusations of criminal behavior posted on social media are nothing I'd be a part of in any way, including informing friends to be cautious of someone so accused. The women involved need to contact the authorities if they were raped.

 

 

I would like to respectfully disagree with you here. Some of my friends do not have social media and I believe that they should know. I do agree the women involved do need to reach out to authorities. 

[vwisme]

8 hours ago, Ellener said:

I think that's similar to saying people who have been victimised are always and only victims, and incapable of rational communication...it's not okay to do a witch-hunt or pressure other people's opinions against someone whatever has happened in one's past.

That's not campaigning on an issue, it's gossip and a personal attack. There are appropriate places to advocate for and support victims of crime, or to report crimes.

I agree. 

Nothing good can come of it. It's slander and defamation to post unproven accusations, or could prejudice and stop a fair court case later. 

Steer clear @vwisme is what I'd do.

 

Steering clear is what I am choosing to do. Thank you. And I fully agree with your statement that victims are capable of rational thinking and communication.  

[vwisme]

9 hours ago, basil67 said:

I couldn't agree more.   This woman may well have a past which contains sexual assault or rape of herself or someone close to her.  A lot of us do.    Would you view her stance differently if you knew that she was speaking from a place of hurt?   

 

No. I would not view her stance differently. I would understand where she was coming from in a more empathetic way possibly. But here is an assumption I don't fully understand. Why is it that if a man speaks up on the issue, it's automatically determined he cannot relate. I fully acknowledge that women are much more likely to be victims of a sexual crime but with all due respect, your statement comes across as if there was no way I would have been a victim of rape? 

Should her stance differ if she knew I was speaking from a place of healed from past hurt? (sorry if that question is phrased clunky) 

Apologize if this comment is coming across as a bit aggressive. That is not my intention.