Medical Gaslighting

[Watercolors]

It seems to be a rampant 'thing' in healthcare, esp. towards women. I am trying to find a doctor to establish care with yet the last two women doctors made some comments that felt like they were gaslighting me. One said, "I'll keep you from going off the deep end," which felt like she was shaming me or at least implying that she doesn't respect me. So, that's a no for me. The second female doctor told me that my health concerns aren't that serious but they actually are. The real trauma was when I was referred to a specialist at a teaching hospital (I hate those places) who decided instead of speaking to me directly, let her student-doctor fellow lead my first appointment with her. He was awful. I was fuming. So, I filed a formal complaint and asked to be switched to another specialist who will not stick a student doctor on me. I get it. It's a teaching hospital. But I am not in the mood to be a guinea pig right now. I feel like because I'm a woman, my healthcare concerns will never be taken seriously and that is really frustrating. I hate the bureaucracy that medicine has become in the U.S.

[Ellener]

20 minutes ago, Watercolors said:

I hate the bureaucracy that medicine has become in the U.S.

Know what you mean. I am skeptical about doctors in America and don't take any medical advice these days unless I have done a ton of research myself. 

Hope you get someone better next time.

[Watercolors]

2 hours ago, Ellener said:

Know what you mean. I am skeptical about doctors in America and don't take any medical advice these days unless I have done a ton of research myself. 

Hope you get someone better next time.

Thanks. My search continues. I really don't trust doctors but my health conditions force me to deal with them unfortunately.

[Wiseman2]

Managed care stinks, no doubt. Keep it black and white. Training, medical school, board certified, etc. Don't expect female doctors to magically be more compassionate 

Choose by credentials. Choose a specialist in whatever field you're medical problem is in.

You are concerned with bedside manner and rapport and trust are important .

Unfortunately it seems like your managed care doesn't offer the best providers.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Wiseman2

[d0nnivain]

I'm so sorry you are having these experiences.   Have you considered writing down your symptoms on a paper & handing that paper to the doctor to read in your presence?  That can help.  Another good tip is to write out your Qs & make sure you get them all answered.  

Any doctor who you feel is dismissive to you is not your doctor.  Understand they have time pressures so you have to be efficient.  The insurance companies expect them to see a patient every 12 minutes or something ridiculous like that so while some might want to listen they can't.  

I had the luxury of money so when I had a bad problem a while back I asked the staff to book me 2 back to back appointments & I paid out of pocket for the 2nd one because I wanted the time.  I had a relationship with that practice to it worked.  

It's your body & you know better what's going on inside then the physician.  Never forget that.  

[alphamale]

many physicians whether male or female tend to have big egos.  you can get a second or third opinion whenever you want.  the vast majority of doctors are competent and good at what they do.

[Watercolors]

7 hours ago, d0nnivain said:

I'm so sorry you are having these experiences.   Have you considered writing down your symptoms on a paper & handing that paper to the doctor to read in your presence?  That can help.  Another good tip is to write out your Qs & make sure you get them all answered.  

Any doctor who you feel is dismissive to you is not your doctor.  Understand they have time pressures so you have to be efficient.  The insurance companies expect them to see a patient every 12 minutes or something ridiculous like that so while some might want to listen they can't.  

I had the luxury of money so when I had a bad problem a while back I asked the staff to book me 2 back to back appointments & I paid out of pocket for the 2nd one because I wanted the time.  I had a relationship with that practice to it worked.  

It's your body & you know better what's going on inside then the physician.  Never forget that.  

 I had a dr. appt this morning to meet with a plastic surgeon about a scar on my back that had not healed flat and smooth and not only did he send in his physician assistant but also another student-doctor-fellow. I nearly blew my stack. The P.A. was rude to me, to say the least. She came in, sat down, and after she asked me why I was there to see the plastic surgeon, proceeded to then tell me a bunch of nonsense about what had nothing to do with the reason I was there.

So, then I said, "Will you stop gaslighting me? It's clearly written in my chart why I'm here today." She tried to argue with me, about how I'm gaslighting her, so I just yelled at her, "Get out! I just want to see the plastic surgeon for Christ Sake!" So she stormed out of the exam room and I just glared at the student doctor standing in the corner with a "Don't mess with me today student-doctor" vibe so she was silent during my appt.

The plastic surgeon yelled at me about waiting 2 years to get a mole incised off a very "vulnerable" area of my groin (shall we say) b/c it could be cancerous and we then had a mini argument soft tissue removal, scarring, and after-care before he even looked at my scar to verify that yes, it hadn't healed properly so the multiple layers of skin caused the chronic itchiness b/c it was supposed to scar and heal flat but didn't. 

I have written down my symptoms and tried to read them to the doctor and write down my Qs to get them all answered. 

That's crazy that insurance companies have so much control over medicine. See? That is why the U.S.' healthcare system is so messed up; it's priorities are profit over patient care. Every 12 minutes? Christ! That's unrealistic! That doesn't allow doctors to do actual doctoring which takes time. 

I don't have the luxury of money unfortunately. I wish our healthcare system was universal healthcare so that it was free and we just paid higher taxes every year to compensate for that like Europe's universal healthcare system does. 

Yes, it's my body and I understand that doctors are people with their own life stressors too and they probably hate the way our stupid healthcare system has tied their hands, so to speak as far as time constraint between each patient. I still don't like it when doctors make personal jabs at me. I'm just trying to get my health needs met. 

The way my healthcare works is that if you see more than one doctor it flags you and then you get punished by being put in a restrictive program for 2 years where the clinic puts you with a doctor you are forced to see and can't go to any other doctor. I am trying to avoid that. But so far, 2 doctors and 2 strikes as far as compatibility with my personality. It's not that I don't trust their medical credentials or training; I just don't like these 2 women doctors.

And I know they write notes about each patient in that patient's chart. I have to assume there's a lot of notes about how rudeI am? I can't go outside of my network or I have to pay out of pocket. So, I don't know what to do to counteract any nasty notes in my file about how rude I am with doctors. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[Watercolors]

7 hours ago, alphamale said:

many physicians whether male or female tend to have big egos.  you can get a second or third opinion whenever you want.  the vast majority of doctors are competent and good at what they do.

Yes, some of them seem to have big egos and/or personality disorders. I had an endocrinologist who used to scream at me and call me names. I went to the clinic and to the state medical board of licensing to file a complaint and he lost his license (not just b/c of me b/c he would treat every patient that way and my complaint was one of many so the state board couldn't just pretend this problematic doctor didn't exist anymore. So they removed him from my healthcare network). 

But the question remains, doctors gossip like anyone else. If I'm rude to doctors who gaslight me, how will I ever find a doctor in my network who will respect me? 

Edited October 27, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language

[alphamale]

5 hours ago, Watercolors said:

But the question remains, doctors gossip like anyone else. If I'm rude to doctors who gaslight me, how will I ever find a doctor in my network who will respect me? 

maybe you need a new insurance plan or a new network? can you go out-of-network for additional out of pocket cost?

Edited October 27, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Watercolors]

27 minutes ago, alphamale said:

maybe you need a new insurance plan or a new network? can you go out-of-network for additional out of pocket cost?

I have my healthcare through my county. I will have to apply through my county and write a letter to the social worker who handles my healthcare, asking to be transferred to the only other healthcare network in my large city. But yeah, I think that's my last resort. I'm a difficult person to deal with as I have an underlying hatred of medical doctors - not the person, the profession - and I forget that they are people too who have good and bad days and their own issues. I don't know what I'm looking for. A better doctor, or a better perspective, or a better life. I just don't know.

[carhill]

Difficult times for everyone with the -19 fallout, even those with Cadillac health care and long patient relationships have complained of difficulties/frustrations. IMO, if my health wasn't in imminent danger I'd give the current milieu a pass and wait for calmer times all around.

Using your mole as example, does your family have a history of skin cancer? Have you noticed marked changes in the mole of late? Etc, etc. I'm an old guy and yeah we get stuff nobody's body is perfect IMO it pays to self-triage these days with all the -19 stuff impacting care and our stress levels in general.

A friend, who had colon cancer and had the resection and radiation, etc, had his colonoscopy delayed for nearly ten months due to Covid, no doubt that was frustrating for him since colon cancer is firmly in his history and is not easy to self-detect, need those tests. Got in this month, they removed some polyps, fortunately no cancer. Still frustrating. Money wasn't an issue, best of best health coverage and plenty of cash. Didn't matter. Sorry.

For those of us on the other end, either on ACA low-level plans as I am, or on MedicAid, access is limited, something also a problem for those on Medicare. As long as health care is a capitalistic pursuit in a free society, I trust those challenges will remain. How we handle them is up to us. Best wishes for a healthy resolution to your care.

 

 

[d0nnivain]

5 hours ago, Watercolors said:

So, I don't know what to do to counteract any nasty notes in my file about how rude I am with doctors. 

Request a full & complete copy of your records.  Then read what you get.  

Edited October 27, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Watercolors]

4 hours ago, carhill said:

Using your mole as example, does your family have a history of skin cancer?

Yes skin cancer runs in my family; my mother and sister have had their faces slashed a lot to have pre-cancerous moles removed. Now, I've put off having a pre-cancerous mole in my nether region removed for 2 years now, b/c I didn't want my nether region to get slashed up or infected or somehow more problems caused for me health-wise as there are risks involved with these types of mole removals on soft tissue. I should have had it removed 2 years ago but I didn't.

But now in 2 months I will get it removed and sent to pathology to confirm whether or not its cancer. Was I immature, irresponsible, pig-headed, foolish, stupid, moronic, fearful, lazy to wait 2 years? Yes of course I was. At least I will get it removed in January and find out. The mole scar on my back will also be re-opened and shaved after I get my nether-region mole removed. That mole on my back was nasty but pathology didn't find any cancer despite its cancerous appearance.

4 hours ago, d0nnivain said:

Request a full & complete copy of your records.  Then read what you get.  

Smart solution and great suggestion. I can't believe I didn't think of this myself. So, I've already filled out the paperwork to request my medical records. Now I'm dreading the comments from doctors because I know they will essentially diagnose me as problematic but in psychiatric terms. Oh well. It is what it is. *shrug*

Medical gaslighting happens. When doctors make personal jabs at me I react. I know I shouldn't react, but I can't help myself b/c THEY ARE DOCTORS and they are supposed to take care of my health problems. Why do they have to be rude too?

Edited October 27, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

Aren't they asking your permission before bringing in a student?  I've never NOT been asked.  Usually I say yes, but I have said no a couple of times.

[lana-banana]

As someone who has had occasional skin cancer surgeries since age 16, I say you really shouldn't let fear of surgery dictate your decisions, especially when the risk of doing nothing has far greater consequences than surgery on soft tissue. Even Mohs surgeries heal up pretty quickly; I can't say I've ever seen someone who looked "slashed", and Mohs is the most invasive option by far. If it's just a carcinoma you can get it cut off like mold on hard cheese. (The last time I had one it was maybe a 10 minute procedure?)  Many dermatologists also double as cosmetic surgeons so look for someone with dual specialties.

You know this by now, but never ever go to a teaching hospital, and you should also avoid the June-August timeframe---when new residents show up at hospitals and can sometimes make bad calls. 

[Watercolors]

15 minutes ago, lana-banana said:

As someone who has had occasional skin cancer surgeries since age 16, I say you really shouldn't let fear of surgery dictate your decisions, especially when the risk of doing nothing has far greater consequences than surgery on soft tissue. Even Mohs surgeries heal up pretty quickly; I can't say I've ever seen someone who looked "slashed", and Mohs is the most invasive option by far. If it's just a carcinoma you can get it cut off like mold on hard cheese. (The last time I had one it was maybe a 10 minute procedure?)  Many dermatologists also double as cosmetic surgeons so look for someone with dual specialties.

You know this by now, but never ever go to a teaching hospital, and you should also avoid the June-August timeframe---when new residents show up at hospitals and can sometimes make bad calls. 

Well I can't go back in a time machine now can I. I waited 2 years and at least now I'm getting the mole removed. But I am scared because that soft tissue is in a very vulnerable area inside my groin. What if it gets infected by the incision? What if the surgeon slices my *ahem* off by accident. I mean, christ that would ruin my sex life ok! If there is ONE place a mole is the worst location to be, then this location is that place. And its not a small mole either.

I wish someone had warned me never to go to a teaching hospital. Clearly I lack common sense. Now at least I know. The student doctor called me yesterday about 20 minutes after I finished filing my complaint over the phone with his dept., and it took every ounce of self-control to remain calm. I didn't even let him speak. I just told him I was no longer seeking care from his supervisor and hung up. I didn't even give him a chance to respond.

Environments like teaching hospitals seem rampant for gaslighting patients though. I think that is why I experienced it on such a tramuatic level. At a teaching hospital, you're like an animal with a tag on its ear moving through a line waiting to be misdiagnosed and emotionally slaughtered. That's how i felt after my video call with that stupid student doctor and that stupid supervising doctor who didn't even ask me for my health history or ask me for symptoms etc.. I didn't even complete the blood tests she ordered b/c they were not even relevant to my health condition. I'm waiting for the dept. to call me back, to tell me the status of my official complaint.

[alphamale]

20 minutes ago, lana-banana said:

You know this by now, but never ever go to a teaching hospital, ...

teaching hospitals and their doctors may lack in bedside manner but they have the leading edge of medical science

[major_merrick]

I will second the advice to demand a full copy of your records.  You need to keep your own files anyways.

I find that doctors tend to be a very pushy bunch.  They've traumatized my GF#1 so badly that if she goes to a medical appointment, I have to be there with her and sometimes she'll even sit in my lap and shiver with dread.  Not cool.  My MIL is a doctor, and has a very demeaning and abrasive attitude.  I definitely feel you! 

Obviously, teaching hospitals are a cheaper choice but you have to put up with a lot of stuff.  If you can afford it or go through a different kind of insurance, you can get better options elsewhere.  No way in hell would I be a guinea pig for new residents.  I also don't put up with male doctors, especially since my issues are OBGyn stuff.  I demand only female doctors and staff, men get sent packing.  I tend to be up-front about the fact that since I'm paying the bill, I'm the one calling the shots.  I have a b*tchy attitude normally, and going into a medical situation I'm more aggressive than usual.  It has taken some time to find a good place, but where I get my ultrasounds and stuff they treat me like royalty - and it is an all-female clinic too. 

Just keep shopping around, and be up-front about your expectations.  Hopefully you'll find what you're looking for. 

[major_merrick]

1 minute ago, alphamale said:

teaching hospitals and their doctors may lack in bedside manner but they have the leading edge of medical science

They  may have the edge in science and gadgets, but they'll lack the common sense and experience to apply it.  If I had a serious issue, I'd be demanding a doctor with 20+ years of experience.  You'd be amazed at the diagnoses that an older doctor can do with basic common sense that newer doctors with all their testing simply MISS. 

[d0nnivain]

Just now, Watercolors said:

The student doctor called me yesterday about 20 minutes after I finished filing my complaint over the phone with his dept., and it took every ounce of self-control to remain calm. I didn't even let him speak. * * * I didn't even give him a chance to respond.

I suspect that is a big part of why you feel like you get such lousy treatment.  You come across with a GIANT chip on your shoulder.  A medical student still knows more medicine then a lay person.   

My experience at teaching hospitals is that you get more time & you get to ask more Qs because the supervising doctor wants the student to learn, so they take their time. 

I remember when my mother died.  It was a snowy January night.   The hospital told me I would have to wait for the attending to get there.  I knew him so I called him & asked if he really had to be the one to pronounce my mother dead because I didn't want to drag him out at such a later hour in bad weather.  It's not like I needed a doctor to tell me she was dead.  I knew.  He said no that any doctor could do it.  I held the phone away from my mouth & told the nurse to go get me some baby resident doctor in any specialty who had never pronounced before & let them do it for the experience.  The doctor on the phone  thanked me for giving that experience to the new doctor.  

Everybody has to start their education somewhere so @WatercolorsI think you should have let the student doctor say whatever it was that person called you about before you told them that their services were no longer needed.  There's a polite way to keep your boundaries & then there is the way you have chosen which makes you come across as unreasonable; that probably makes fewer professionals want to help you.  

Look I get it.  When it's critical, it's hard to keep a civil tongue.  Earlier as she was coding I practically pinned a nurse's assistant to a wall before she could defibrillate my mother who had a DNR.  There were HUGE orange stickers everywhere so I was annoyed with this nurse who was artificially, painfully & expensively trying to prolong my mother's life when there had been no quality for some time.  

Just make sure you are not the obstacle to your goal of good health care & understanding from your treaters.  

[Ellener]

16 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

A medical student still knows more medicine then a lay person.   

Don't know that I'd agree with that! I have found even experienced doctors know little or nothing of my two conditions, Anxiety Disorder and Charcot Foot Arthropathy. 

I've made cards for Diabetes Awareness Month ( Nov ) for the latter and distributed them as a grass-roots exercise in making better awareness, it's almost always misdiagnosed at first resulting in bone deformity. 

It's a good idea to go in to a doctor with a check list I agree.

[d0nnivain]

Just now, Ellener said:

Don't know that I'd agree with that! I have found even experienced doctors know little or nothing of my two conditions, Anxiety Disorder and Charcot Foot Arthropathy. 

So the med students & the doctors don't know much about your particular conditions because you have lived with the conditions & educated yourself but in general med  students know more about medicine overall.  

When you come in thinking that your lay understanding of a medical condition is superior to the education of somebody who has devoted their life to learning the subject you set up conflict.  

Patients who start out angry & closed make it harder for the doctor.  

[Ellener]

3 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

Patients who start out angry & closed make it harder for the doctor.  

It's not the patient's job to set the doctor at ease! The doctor is a well-paid professional doing a job. 

We have elevated the status of doctors above other professions though, and expect way too much sometimes. The doctors develop defensive-mechanisms to cope too I'm sure.

[d0nnivain]

11 minutes ago, Ellener said:

It's not the patient's job to set the doctor at ease! The doctor is a well-paid professional doing a job. 

I am not saying the patient has to put the doctor at ease.  I am saying civility & courtesy go a long way.  You catch more flies with honey after all.  

[major_merrick]

24 minutes ago, Ellener said:

It's not the patient's job to set the doctor at ease! The doctor is a well-paid professional doing a job. 

We have elevated the status of doctors above other professions though, and expect way too much sometimes. The doctors develop defensive-mechanisms to cope too I'm sure.

Exactly!

I've never found that my attitude gets in the way of receiving what I need.  Quite the opposite.  But I think that one's attitude should be used as a tool rather than merely a reaction.  When I have to deal with the medical establishment, they get the harsh side of me FIRST.  Not really with emotion, but with firmness.  I put them on notice, and I lay out my expectations in detail.  It lets doctors and staff know immediately that I am the one who is in control, and there's no doubt about what they are permitted to do.  After that, once everything is going smoothly I relax and they can relax too. 

I never assume that a doctor knows more than I do until they prove it.  Most doctors (especially new ones) have knowledge "a mile wide and an inch deep" about most things, with greater knowledge of one specialty that may or may not apply in a given situation.  Obviously there's ways of working with this that are more polite than others.  In my experience, the point of going to a doctor isn't for their knowledge so much as to be able to use expensive equipment that I don't have at home, as well as to get things prescribed.  In other words, 80% of the time all I need is a rubber stamp and a 2nd/3rd pair of hands.  Final analysis of any scans or data is always my own.