Turning around rejection

[basil67]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Interesting question which I had to think about, I am frequently accused of being negative. So I just generally would rather say nothing at all than be accused of that. Happiness and joy is in short supply with me, there is no disputing that fact.  Sure I will enjoy a good cycle but I don't go telling people how nice it was blasting down a hill or cycling among the vineyards, taking in the smell of spring. I'll enjoy the sense of accomplishment of getting something right but again I do not go about telling people about it.

It's probably a combination of 'time and place' and choosing your audience, but I think these things are great to share.   When my hubby comes in and says "That was a great ride.  Perfect weather etc" it adds to how much I enjoy his positivity about life.   You probably won't go telling your workmates this randomly, but if a conversation about riding routes comes up with those who ride, suggesting how lovely it is to ride though the vineyards would be a great conversation add.

Talking about accomplishments is also a nice thing to do.  I've just finished knitting a cardigan for my daughter and I'll surely do a 'show and tell' when the buttons are sewed on.   It will start many conversations with people who have common interests and they will also talk about what they are doing.  Of course, it doesn't have to be craft.  Any positive sharing brings good vibes.

Regarding sharing negative vibes, most of us do share problems with our friends or get stuff off our chest.   It's totally normal.  But do offset it with positivity.  

Do you enjoy hearing positivity from others?  

 

Quote

People just are not really interested in others, I definitely notice when someone takes an interest in me and the last time that happened she only took any sort of interest in me because she thought I was extremely wealthy, she did give me a lot of attention which was rather nice for the change. When she realised I was not what she thought I was she dropped me like a hot potato.

Do you have no friends who are interested in you?

 

Edited November 7, 2020 by basil67

[Miss Spider]

Maybe she was thinking long-term too, but she does not have the same mentality as you do. That is, she doesn’t put as much weight into physical appearance as you do in a long term dating prospect. Because if we are to accept what you say about looks being all one needs to land the date and you did land the date, obviously she needed something more or she would not have ghosted 

[ZA Dater]

20 hours ago, basil67 said:

It's probably a combination of 'time and place' and choosing your audience, but I think these things are great to share.   When my hubby comes in and says "That was a great ride.  Perfect weather etc" it adds to how much I enjoy his positivity about life.   You probably won't go telling your workmates this randomly, but if a conversation about riding routes comes up with those who ride, suggesting how lovely it is to ride though the vineyards would be a great conversation add.

Talking about accomplishments is also a nice thing to do.  I've just finished knitting a cardigan for my daughter and I'll surely do a 'show and tell' when the buttons are sewed on.   It will start many conversations with people who have common interests and they will also talk about what they are doing.  Of course, it doesn't have to be craft.  Any positive sharing brings good vibes.

Regarding sharing negative vibes, most of us do share problems with our friends or get stuff off our chest.   It's totally normal.  But do offset it with positivity.  

Do you enjoy hearing positivity from others?  

 

Do you have no friends who are interested in you?

 

I think you are totally correct. The problem for me is often I feel like people simply do not relate to me so I feeling like sharing specific things are not really relatable unless the person has even a passing interest in those things. Again common interests, hard for me to find these, this date actually had quite a few common interests with me so that I guess helped the conversation. 

The problem I find is people often do not realise how tough and average week is for me stress wise so this does tend to cloud things quite a lot. I enjoy reading lots of positive threads on this forum for example, people who find success, people who have that great date. One of the best things I ever did was train someone up, he was from a poverty stricken background, the first person to ever go to university in his family but he had this stutter, it was because he was not a confident speaker, he was a co worker for 4 years and after that he spoken confidently, carried himself with confidence and today is quite successful in his own right. I like a good story as much as the next person, I enjoy reading about people who have beaten the odd. Probably because my own journey has not been easy at all, beaten many odds along the way BUT I do not really ever savour the good things long enough, its always onto the next challenge.

Friends, I essentially have very few of these I see reasonably often so I would not say they are super interested in me. Sure some do care to a degree.

For me its easier to help others than ask for help and easier to give than ask for something.  My opinion is a relationship will not work for me just by virtue of my closed off personality and add no experience and its objectively difficult to imagine anyone liking me in that way, well anyone that I might like. 

This date was a case in point where I tried to show interest by taking an interest in her as a person, I tried to keep things light and actually put in some effort because I realise I had in some senses found a unicorn. What I have never understood and probably never will is why I must always put in the effort and I get very little back, a good example of this is when I went on a date to find out mid way through she was actually a call girl, guess what I liked her a lot until them because she was actually taking an interest in me, making me feel emotionally good. Likewise the stripper I met once, she was going out with a friend of mine but she was always warm, friendly and just nice. I then go on dates I seem to find this robotic coldness and no I try not to be that myself but when I just get no warmth back I just divert to interview mode.

Are people supposed to be warm and friendly?  Again the yoga instructor was that which I guess was why, even though I was being used I enjoyed spending time with her because while I was buying everything the pats on the arm, the joking around I got the sense her attention was directed at me. Am I really so stupid to believe and actually want more of this?

[Miss Spider]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I think you are totally correct. The problem for me is often I feel like people simply do not relate to me so I feeling like sharing specific things are not really relatable unless the person has even a passing interest in those things. Again common interests, hard for me to find these, this date actually had quite a few common interests with me so that I guess helped the conversation. 

The problem I find is people often do not realise how tough and average week is for me stress wise so this does tend to cloud things quite a lot. I enjoy reading lots of positive threads on this forum for example, people who find success, people who have that great date. One of the best things I ever did was train someone up, he was from a poverty stricken background, the first person to ever go to university in his family but he had this stutter, it was because he was not a confident speaker, he was a co worker for 4 years and after that he spoken confidently, carried himself with confidence and today is quite successful in his own right. I like a good story as much as the next person, I enjoy reading about people who have beaten the odd. Probably because my own journey has not been easy at all, beaten many odds along the way BUT I do not really ever savour the good things long enough, its always onto the next challenge.

Friends, I essentially have very few of these I see reasonably often so I would not say they are super interested in me. Sure some do care to a degree.

For me its easier to help others than ask for help and easier to give than ask for something.  My opinion is a relationship will not work for me just by virtue of my closed off personality and add no experience and its objectively difficult to imagine anyone liking me in that way, well anyone that I might like. 

This date was a case in point where I tried to show interest by taking an interest in her as a person, I tried to keep things light and actually put in some effort because I realise I had in some senses found a unicorn. What I have never understood and probably never will is why I must always put in the effort and I get very little back, a good example of this is when I went on a date to find out mid way through she was actually a call girl, guess what I liked her a lot until them because she was actually taking an interest in me, making me feel emotionally good. Likewise the stripper I met once, she was going out with a friend of mine but she was always warm, friendly and just nice. I then go on dates I seem to find this robotic coldness and no I try not to be that myself but when I just get no warmth back I just divert to interview mode.

Are people supposed to be warm and friendly?  Again the yoga instructor was that which I guess was why, even though I was being used I enjoyed spending time with her because while I was buying everything the pats on the arm, the joking around I got the sense her attention was directed at me. Am I really so stupid to believe and actually want more of this?

First off, I think only sharing things about yourself others can directly relate to is flawed. I have been on several dates where the men had shared interests that I had no real interest in personally, but I enjoyed hearing about because it was their interest. I could see that they had a interest in it and I could relate to that part of it. Nothing wrong with that.

How you helped that man would be a beautiful story to tell. it’s very interesting and it reveals a lot about you that you would say it is “one of the best things” you’ve done. 

 

lastly, yes I think that on a date the person should be warm and friendly. I think if a person is cold and closed off on the date you can assume that they are not into it

 

 

I, too, have realized that there are inherent parts of who I am that make a romantic relationship unsuitable for me. This may be the case for you too.  I think the fundamental difference between you and I is that I have had it and feel I have the choices to have it.  You don’t see it as much as a choice. You feel you are missing out on something. Something greater, that may lead to some kind of self-actualization. That’s just my take on it

Edited November 8, 2020 by Shortskirtslonglashes

[basil67]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I think you are totally correct. The problem for me is often I feel like people simply do not relate to me so I feeling like sharing specific things are not really relatable unless the person has even a passing interest in those things. Again common interests, hard for me to find these, this date actually had quite a few common interests with me so that I guess helped the conversation. 

I agree with SSLL - I don't need to share an interest in the topic someone is speaking about to be able to enjoy the conversation.  Like you,, there are certain conversations which I will never be interested in - enjoyment of reality TV for example - but I could engage on a critique of the genre.   But if someone is sharing a story about their life, I'll be interested.  Perhaps you're underestimating others?

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

One of the best things I ever did was train someone up, he was from a poverty stricken background, the first person to ever go to university in his family but he had this stutter, it was because he was not a confident speaker, he was a co worker for 4 years and after that he spoken confidently, carried himself with confidence and today is quite successful in his own right. I like a good story as much as the next person, I enjoy reading about people who have beaten the odd. Probably because my own journey has not been easy at all, beaten many odds along the way BUT I do not really ever savour the good things long enough, its always onto the next challenge.

This is a great story.   If we were in conversation, I'd also enjoy hearing about your own journey.

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Friends, I essentially have very few of these I see reasonably often so I would not say they are super interested in me. Sure some do care to a degree.

No friends are "super" interested in us.   They do however enjoy our company and our stories and the sharing we do.   Perhaps you could lower your expectations to the latter rather than the former?

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

What I have never understood and probably never will is why I must always put in the effort and I get very little back.

You DON'T have to put in all the work.  If I was on a date and they didn't show interest in me, the date would last all of half an hour and I'd make an excuse to leave.   People who lack those basic social skills simply aren't worth dating.  Walk away.

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Are people supposed to be warm and friendly?  Again the yoga instructor was that which I guess was why, even though I was being used I enjoyed spending time with her because while I was buying everything the pats on the arm, the joking around I got the sense her attention was directed at me. Am I really so stupid to believe and actually want more of this?

People come in all varieties.  There is no "supposed to be".  But I would say that those who are most successful in friendship, life and love are warm and friendly.   It's not stupid to want more of it, because it's what most of us want.  But you do need to be prepared to match the warmth, openness and friendliness that you would like to have in a partner.  

[ZA Dater]

On 11/9/2020 at 12:34 AM, basil67 said:

I agree with SSLL - I don't need to share an interest in the topic someone is speaking about to be able to enjoy the conversation.  Like you,, there are certain conversations which I will never be interested in - enjoyment of reality TV for example - but I could engage on a critique of the genre.   But if someone is sharing a story about their life, I'll be interested.  Perhaps you're underestimating others?

This is a great story.   If we were in conversation, I'd also enjoy hearing about your own journey.

No friends are "super" interested in us.   They do however enjoy our company and our stories and the sharing we do.   Perhaps you could lower your expectations to the latter rather than the former?

You DON'T have to put in all the work.  If I was on a date and they didn't show interest in me, the date would last all of half an hour and I'd make an excuse to leave.   People who lack those basic social skills simply aren't worth dating.  Walk away.

People come in all varieties.  There is no "supposed to be".  But I would say that those who are most successful in friendship, life and love are warm and friendly.   It's not stupid to want more of it, because it's what most of us want.  But you do need to be prepared to match the warmth, openness and friendliness that you would like to have in a partner.  

I have told that story many times on dates and I might as well be talking to the walls but tell it to someone from the USA, Sweden or Germany and they actually engage in conversation.

The point is NOBODY shows any interest in me on a date so I ALWAYS have to put in all the work which is why I fundamentally find the idea of going on dates hard work in itself. To be honest I can tell via text how interested someone is and almost always that is reflected in person, met someone who did have a conversation with me on an app, she is here from France but the app crashed and well indicative of my dating life that match is gone.

The fundamental problem which I usually have but did not with this date is what version of me do I arrive with, the intelligent, intellectual, interested in politics, world affairs version knowing full well this version does not work wit 99.9% of people. Or do I then go as this super motivated business guy but that version means interview me arrives. Do I go and try and find more about the person via conversation but inevitably there is little to nothing to be found out. 

 

 

[ZA Dater]

On 11/8/2020 at 11:23 PM, Shortskirtslonglashes said:

First off, I think only sharing things about yourself others can directly relate to is flawed. I have been on several dates where the men had shared interests that I had no real interest in personally, but I enjoyed hearing about because it was their interest. I could see that they had a interest in it and I could relate to that part of it. Nothing wrong with that.

How you helped that man would be a beautiful story to tell. it’s very interesting and it reveals a lot about you that you would say it is “one of the best things” you’ve done. 

 

lastly, yes I think that on a date the person should be warm and friendly. I think if a person is cold and closed off on the date you can assume that they are not into it

 

 

I, too, have realized that there are inherent parts of who I am that make a romantic relationship unsuitable for me. This may be the case for you too.  I think the fundamental difference between you and I is that I have had it and feel I have the choices to have it.  You don’t see it as much as a choice. You feel you are missing out on something. Something greater, that may lead to some kind of self-actualization. That’s just my take on it

I think the problem for me is mostly I never find anyone I like but when I do I need to dust off my A game BUT the problem is I am so inexperienced that what I think is good has never actually proven to be so. None of the "well I really like her overall" dates have ever gone anywhere despite me thinking they went well at the time. I sometimes think the biggest challenge for me is my outlook is very different to most which then means I become un relatable to others. Lets face it no relationship experience at 36 is not really normal. People pick that up easily and some have commented. 

A lot of my life has been spent trying to connect with people in general and its mostly been a total disaster. Nothing about me vaguely complies with what people seem to find normal, VERY rarely someone will find that fact I am different interesting but never in the dating context. 

A friend of mine is late 40's he has 22yo's after him, he can seemingly date/hook up with an array of ever better looking ladies, they take interest in him, far more than he takes in them actually and I look at this and wonder. I am completely ignore at these gatherings which is fine I am there as a friend but there is never anything in common with these people, they all go to trance parties and those interest me about as much as a white wall.

The people I helped uplift in life have been the best things I have done I stand by that and there is happiness to be derived from it but part of me just wishes someone would do the same for me when it comes to dating. Maybe some of us are just born to be alone.

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

The fundamental problem which I usually have but did not with this date is what version of me do I arrive with, the intelligent, intellectual, interested in politics, world affairs version knowing full well this version does not work wit 99.9% of people. Or do I then go as this super motivated business guy but that version means interview me arrives. Do I go and try and find more about the person via conversation but inevitably there is little to nothing to be found out. 

With the majority of women, working towards being "warm and friendly guy" would be your best bet.   You would likely find that women would open up a lot more.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

With the majority of women, working towards being "warm and friendly guy" would be your best bet.   You would likely find that women would open up a lot more.

Nice guys never get anywhere remember

I can be as warm and friendly as I like but if she has 100 more matches to choose from its hardly going to matter really. Maybe of they were more warm and friendly I would open up more.

 

[SumGuy]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Nice guys never get anywhere remember

Perhaps, depends on how you define "nice guy" and "getting anywhere."  Generally though such sentiments I find are more an excuse for people who lie and cheat to justify their behavior, or some "nice guy" who's real problem is he is passive, expects the world to fall in his lap, and uses it to whine and avoid looking at his character traits that are actually getting in his way. 

Warm and friendly does work wonders in the dating world in my experience, not every woman's cup of tea but tend to agree it is preferred by many and appears to be a much easier approach for you than strong and silent type.

Quote

I can be as warm and friendly as I like but if she has 100 more matches to choose from its hardly going to matter really. Maybe of they were more warm and friendly I would open up more.

Alas, do you see the contradiction in your statement above?  if they truly have 100x the matches you do then putting it on them to be more warm and friendly first is unrealistic.  I believe you may also be discounting the greater danger woman face in meeting a male stranger versus a man meeting a female stranger.  It is not surprising to me that a woman might be legitimately more reserved in such a situation out of reasonable caution.  

[SumGuy]

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

...

The people I helped uplift in life have been the best things I have done I stand by that and there is happiness to be derived from it but part of me just wishes someone would do the same for me when it comes to dating. Maybe some of us are just born to be alone.

Keep doing that.  It's good to fight the good fight (helping others).  I get you, it is normal to desire others do the same, but even if they don't do the same and you still help that makes your good deeds even better.  I suspect you know much of the 1000s of years of philosophy around what is a good deed.

I am not so certain you are born to be alone, sounds more like you are not finding the women who would connect with you, and looking in the wrong areas.  For example, can see how a woman who liked trance parties (had to look them up so going by Wikipedia) is not what you are after and not surprising at all you would not connect with them and vice versa.  Which makes me think about the friend who wanted to set you up, maybe the reason they are not going after these women (despite them being good looking and intelligent) is because these women don't like the things they do, like trance parties.   This could be especially true for guys with many options.

You seem like a very serious, and deep thinking person (in good ways).  Have you tried dating women in academia or maybe those who have their own business?  Not that all women in these areas are like that but think you odds are better finding connection in those areas.  I have dated women in these areas and they are very open to conversations that are intellectual, business, factual like in nature, especially with a good give and take getting her ideas on questions of substance.   I found to this can put them at ease as these are "safe" topics.   An important things is to let you passion for the conversation topic show, so she knows you have such emotions. 

Now for you the issue may be the transition to "interest," especially in the non-verbal ways; so would suggest work on a way to smoothly come out with saying you find her interesting, felt a connection and would like to see her again. 

If she says yes, propose a date, place and time right there (of course prepare this in your head in advance unless you are very good in the high stress moment of coming up with this).  Realize she may not be able to say yes right away without checking her calendar (almost guaranteed and real if she as her own business or is in academia).  You need to be able to understand this (truly not grudgingly) the only question is do you leave it with a "sure let me known," or more an "OK I'll follow-up with you on xx day and can work out the details."  I suggest the latter as it appears to be more in character for you and is the proactive approach.   In these situations with such women I believe it is fine (and even preferred) to come across as the proactive business/intellectual guy who thinks ahead and is able to make plans and make things happen while also consider and respecting her busy schedule.  Realize there is a line between proactive and pushy, don't be pushy.

As to no relationship experience at 36, many people put career and other things first and women who have their own business or in academia know well this tension and the world judging them for it.  I wouldn't describe yourself as having no experience, just never found the right person (fine to admit you had not made it a priority before).  If it ever gets to being a virgin, you can explain that you want to do that only in a relationship after you get to know someone for a time (some women are going to find this very refreshing) and it is not some religious stance (I assume from what you have posted) but just what you think is right and you've stuck by your values and beliefs in this despite the difficulty.  You still are, and still looking for that person, despite your friends and others telling you how to go for a ONS.  You could easily segue into how bicycling and the outdoors are your passions when need to release more physical energy.

In short, your lack of experience is not a deal breaker and, depending on the story and narrative behind it, can be very much a selling point for you for the right woman.  This is a woman who will be intrigued by your mind, and impressed by your intellectual/serious conversation (IF it is inclusive of her and her views), who is not looking for some Casanova; and frankly looking at you picture you are in great shape and like far better shape than your competition in this category (i.e. the academics and business men these women come across).

So it is OK to come across as a sex project (she will teach you) the project she won't want to take on is a mental health one to validate and assure you about your past and desirability.  You do seem rather strong about your past and on good terms with it, especially as it is frustrating and would make anyone "doubt."  That is just healthy self-examination, and accepting the results/consequences of your choices with out blame, or shame or complaining is strong.   To be able to discuss them (when needed, to throw them out there unbidden) without blame, shame, or complaining shows you are strong enough not to be afraid to be a bit vulnerable, and that you have no shame in who you are and are willing to stick by your values and won't throw them out even if that would get you laid.  You may be surprised how sexy that can be, most men when the going gets tough in following self professed morals, throw their morals out the window to get what they want.

 

Certainly then typical OLD apps (as in the US) and night clubs or parties of the glitterati are probably the least likely places to find your connection.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, SumGuy said:

Keep doing that.  It's good to fight the good fight (helping others).  I get you, it is normal to desire others do the same, but even if they don't do the same and you still help that makes your good deeds even better.  I suspect you know much of the 1000s of years of philosophy around what is a good deed.

I am not so certain you are born to be alone, sounds more like you are not finding the women who would connect with you, and looking in the wrong areas.  For example, can see how a woman who liked trance parties (had to look them up so going by Wikipedia) is not what you are after and not surprising at all you would not connect with them and vice versa.  Which makes me think about the friend who wanted to set you up, maybe the reason they are not going after these women (despite them being good looking and intelligent) is because these women don't like the things they do, like trance parties.   This could be especially true for guys with many options.

You seem like a very serious, and deep thinking person (in good ways).  Have you tried dating women in academia or maybe those who have their own business?  Not that all women in these areas are like that but think you odds are better finding connection in those areas.  I have dated women in these areas and they are very open to conversations that are intellectual, business, factual like in nature, especially with a good give and take getting her ideas on questions of substance.   I found to this can put them at ease as these are "safe" topics.   An important things is to let you passion for the conversation topic show, so she knows you have such emotions. 

Now for you the issue may be the transition to "interest," especially in the non-verbal ways; so would suggest work on a way to smoothly come out with saying you find her interesting, felt a connection and would like to see her again. 

If she says yes, propose a date, place and time right there (of course prepare this in your head in advance unless you are very good in the high stress moment of coming up with this).  Realize she may not be able to say yes right away without checking her calendar (almost guaranteed and real if she as her own business or is in academia).  You need to be able to understand this (truly not grudgingly) the only question is do you leave it with a "sure let me known," or more an "OK I'll follow-up with you on xx day and can work out the details."  I suggest the latter as it appears to be more in character for you and is the proactive approach.   In these situations with such women I believe it is fine (and even preferred) to come across as the proactive business/intellectual guy who thinks ahead and is able to make plans and make things happen while also consider and respecting her busy schedule.  Realize there is a line between proactive and pushy, don't be pushy.

As to no relationship experience at 36, many people put career and other things first and women who have their own business or in academia know well this tension and the world judging them for it.  I wouldn't describe yourself as having no experience, just never found the right person (fine to admit you had not made it a priority before).  If it ever gets to being a virgin, you can explain that you want to do that only in a relationship after you get to know someone for a time (some women are going to find this very refreshing) and it is not some religious stance (I assume from what you have posted) but just what you think is right and you've stuck by your values and beliefs in this despite the difficulty.  You still are, and still looking for that person, despite your friends and others telling you how to go for a ONS.  You could easily segue into how bicycling and the outdoors are your passions when need to release more physical energy.

In short, your lack of experience is not a deal breaker and, depending on the story and narrative behind it, can be very much a selling point for you for the right woman.  This is a woman who will be intrigued by your mind, and impressed by your intellectual/serious conversation (IF it is inclusive of her and her views), who is not looking for some Casanova; and frankly looking at you picture you are in great shape and like far better shape than your competition in this category (i.e. the academics and business men these women come across).

So it is OK to come across as a sex project (she will teach you) the project she won't want to take on is a mental health one to validate and assure you about your past and desirability.  You do seem rather strong about your past and on good terms with it, especially as it is frustrating and would make anyone "doubt."  That is just healthy self-examination, and accepting the results/consequences of your choices with out blame, or shame or complaining is strong.   To be able to discuss them (when needed, to throw them out there unbidden) without blame, shame, or complaining shows you are strong enough not to be afraid to be a bit vulnerable, and that you have no shame in who you are and are willing to stick by your values and won't throw them out even if that would get you laid.  You may be surprised how sexy that can be, most men when the going gets tough in following self professed morals, throw their morals out the window to get what they want.

 

Certainly then typical OLD apps (as in the US) and night clubs or parties of the glitterati are probably the least likely places to find your connection.

Very interesting post, thanks!

I agree with you that I need to find a very particular niche and look within that niche and I have tried to do this but its very difficult to find people in this niche because in some respects they are the most desirable of all. I did find someone like you suggest a while back, met up with her and the date was ok, lots of good conversation but I never really felt much and this is MY problem I need to feel some sort of connection or wow but that is becoming harder and harder to find for whatever reason, perhaps a certain degree of acceptance of just being alone is coming into the equation, perhaps just not seeing the value of sticking my neck that far out or some misguided belief I too can find some 25 yo attractive lady who really likes me, the unicorn in other words.

Why I help people is because of dating, the harsh reality is dating has become such a wholly negative thing and combine that with growing up around a lot of disabled people made me realise the value in actually extending ones hand, the US military has a famous saying "leave no man behind" and in some respect if I see someone in difficulty I do try to help in however small way. In a country with the degree of poverty there is here that can be a daily occurrence. I then go on a date with someone so insular to the world they may as well live in a bubble. I never ever find this with foreigners. 

Make no mistake I have been to the glamour events, been to the glamour parties and that world is nice for no other reason than to experience it but again I sit down on a date and mostly i am sitting with once again insular people.

I have been on dates with business ladies, not many because so few are single but the connection is never quite there, probably because I am too intense.  I need to find a way to sell but I also need to find a target audience. I just look around me and I do not see that audience anywhere. I thought with this date I had figured out how to do that transition but apparently not.

Beliefs can be self limiting but they are hard to ignore when backed up experience. One thing I do know is there are some truly amazing people out there, I did meet one in particular and for a day she did make me feel really good about myself and took a genuine interest in me. A truly amazing personality. Just for one day I had pretty much what I really liked and I could just be me. 

My belief is much like anything you only become better at it with positive experience, people who believe in you, people who take an interest in you and the determination to want to be better. The unfortunate thing is most people only see about 30% of me because there are very few instances where I feel like investing any more than that. Reading as I have done I have just accepted that people are complicated so dating by nature is complicated, the simplest form of dating is probably the ONS, sometimes I wish I had the looks and confidence for that and I could park my morals to one side. I simply cant though. I could pay and go on a date with someone really attractive and get better attention from her conversationally than a tinder date but again what would the point of that be?

My friend is 52 and he has 22--33yo's chasing him. For him dating is easy, its a never ending line of ever more beautiful ladies and he does not have to do much beside be charming, fun and keep fit. He is having fun, would I want some of that fun, maybe but I compare that to the day I spent as mentioned above and that "fun" does not interest as much.

I'd love to know how people see each person individually of others they have met? 

I will think of another selling approach and some way of not admitting defeat because when you think too much and look around too much you can convince yourself of anything really, be it right, wrong or indifferent. 

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, SumGuy said:

Perhaps, depends on how you define "nice guy" and "getting anywhere."  Generally though such sentiments I find are more an excuse for people who lie and cheat to justify their behavior, or some "nice guy" who's real problem is he is passive, expects the world to fall in his lap, and uses it to whine and avoid looking at his character traits that are actually getting in his way. 

Warm and friendly does work wonders in the dating world in my experience, not every woman's cup of tea but tend to agree it is preferred by many and appears to be a much easier approach for you than strong and silent type.

Alas, do you see the contradiction in your statement above?  if they truly have 100x the matches you do then putting it on them to be more warm and friendly first is unrealistic.  I believe you may also be discounting the greater danger woman face in meeting a male stranger versus a man meeting a female stranger.  It is not surprising to me that a woman might be legitimately more reserved in such a situation out of reasonable caution.  

Trust me I know things do not come easy, my whole life is about defying the odd and proving people wrong but this battle is wearing me down because it never really gets any better, I could accept constant rejection with signs of improvement but there are none really. I need to believe again and that is not so easy. I have worked to be more open on dates, less shy, project more confidence but inherently I am not getting to the target market I want. Sure, I have made some stupid mistakes and not taken some opportunities but I cant say my matches are better now than they were 10 years ago, though I am a vastly improved person according to most.

I have learnt what I absolutely do not want but I have also learnt what I like are in the top tier personality like and overall. People who know me cannot understand why I don't just pay and hook up or go to strip clubs but the problem with both of those besides the obvious is that I do not get the overall attraction. For me attraction is not about one aspect but the person overall which makes things very tough, this date had the overall attraction.

My other problem is I never bother to find out what these people are looking for, assuming any would be transparent enough to tell me. I have been to bars and clubs and seen the chameleon charm employed guys and I am aware I do not have that charm but I also do not see those ladies as one night of fun either. I think fundamentally my approach is wrong in some respects. Good example of this was one who arrived at a date tipsy and then get drunk she we all over me and I could have had sex that night but the idea of being with someone that drunk was not appealing, I hedged my bets on getting another date...needless to say I did not get that. 

[Chilli]

You have very shallow pigeon holing stock market like views and robotic like attitudes.You really should throw all that the hell out the window . You know , sell yourself , he's this , she's that , she has 100 to choose from well guess what she's still single and on a date with you , just like most of them, she's probably still single now , 2yrs later or been through 3 more half arsed nothing so called relationships that blew up. You need this you must do that , you must be this must b that , an attractive 25yr old Jesus man. like people have been trying to tell you for yrs , human the hell up a little, a lot actually. Your not buying a stock or filling out an application form, your dealing with humans, real people , real personalities, well you should be if your not then your also just choosing terrible women.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Chilli

[ZA Dater]

9 hours ago, Chilli said:

You have very shallow pigeon holing stock market like views and robotic like attitudes.You really should throw all that the hell out the window . You know , sell yourself , he's this , she's that , she has 100 to choose from well guess what she's still single and on a date with you , just like most of them, she's probably still single now , 2yrs later or been through 3 more half arsed nothing so called relationships that blew up. You need this you must do that , you must be this must b that , an attractive 25yr old Jesus man. like people have been trying to tell you for yrs , human the hell up a little, a lot actually. Your not buying a stock or filling out an application form, your dealing with humans, real people , real personalities, well you should be if your not then your also just choosing terrible women.

Well I guess all these people who reject me must have exactly the same views.

[Chilli]

They just aren't feeling it man , simple as that., You've gotta humanize up a little as basil was trying to say. The other side to that coin is though too , hopefully if you were to meet somebody you just click with which will obviously be a very rare occasion but when you do , a lot of it will just happen and click automatically so that will help. You can get the dates though that's for sure so if you hang in there or just pick it up again whenever you feel like it , odds wise speaking that could just happen anyway , with someone, sooner or later . 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Chilli

[SumGuy]

On 11/10/2020 at 2:53 PM, ZA Dater said:

... In a country with the degree of poverty there is here that can be a daily occurrence. I then go on a date with someone so insular to the world they may as well live in a bubble. I never ever find this with foreigners. 

Make no mistake I have been to the glamour events, been to the glamour parties and that world is nice for no other reason than to experience it but again I sit down on a date and mostly i am sitting with once again insular people.

Interesting and wish could say have never experienced what you mention.  I can imagine the cognitive protections that the haves (or have a lots) cultivate are more so in ZA than US.

Quote

I have been on dates with business ladies, not many because so few are single but the connection is never quite there, probably because I am too intense.  I need to find a way to sell but I also need to find a target audience. I just look around me and I do not see that audience anywhere. I thought with this date I had figured out how to do that transition but apparently not.

My caveat would be not just business ladies but those who run their own business, especially one's who founded a business that makes something.   Those who went to business school, etc. and are executives or powerful in the business world (in my US experience) are not necessarily going to be impressed or attracted to intellectual and serious topics as fun, unless of course they can be turned to making money, etc.

Quote

The unfortunate thing is most people only see about 30% of me because there are very few instances where I feel like investing any more than that.

That's a conundrum.  One can only reduced the risk but in my view you really can't avoid putting yourself out their more if you are looking to connect.  

[ZA Dater]

41 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

Interesting and wish could say have never experienced what you mention.  I can imagine the cognitive protections that the haves (or have a lots) cultivate are more so in ZA than US.

My caveat would be not just business ladies but those who run their own business, especially one's who founded a business that makes something.   Those who went to business school, etc. and are executives or powerful in the business world (in my US experience) are not necessarily going to be impressed or attracted to intellectual and serious topics as fun, unless of course they can be turned to making money, etc.

That's a conundrum.  One can only reduced the risk but in my view you really can't avoid putting yourself out their more if you are looking to connect.  

The business world in SA is very male dominated but I suppose I might find someone who has a small start up but again that is quite rare. I think a lot of the issue really is I am just tired of putting in the effort with zero positive outcome. Friend of mine runs her own business and describes me as more supportive of her business and more encouraging than her own boyfriend. See that is one thing I am good at, taking an interest in people who intangibly give me some interest back. Its this one way dating cycling I cannot stand. 

If simply throw everything at it, bring my personality out I become even less relatable to most people so I walk that line.  My opinion is a date as an event has a very limited margin for error, you either get it right or you do not, the first few minutes are critical because it either works then or it does not. I'd argue this was much the case 20 years ago when finding dates was perhaps more difficult than it is today.

What I can do is just not let dating cloud the rest of my life.

[elaine567]

6 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Friend of mine runs her own business and describes me as more supportive of her business and more encouraging than her own boyfriend. See that is one thing I am good at, taking an interest in people who intangibly give me some interest back.

Ok... all very good, but whilst she has two support systems, you have essentially none.
Altruism is all very well but whilst she is cuddling up with her bf, you are sitting at home all alone.
I know you are a bit of a workaholic and this "support" is no doubt "fun" for you as well as helpful to her, but maybe you should be spending the time learning how to be fun in real life, Watch some comedy shows, learn a few jokes, develop a sense of humour, learn how to flirt so that you can entertain and be of some interest to your dates.
Banter, quips, puns, clever and funny off the cuff remarks and witticisms are essential, without them she will find you lack lustre and no doubt boring.
You have an excellent example to follow in your friend who can charm the birds from the trees... I am not saying become your friend but there must be some pointers there that you could use. 

[ZA Dater]

On 11/12/2020 at 10:43 PM, elaine567 said:

Ok... all very good, but whilst she has two support systems, you have essentially none.
Altruism is all very well but whilst she is cuddling up with her bf, you are sitting at home all alone.
I know you are a bit of a workaholic and this "support" is no doubt "fun" for you as well as helpful to her, but maybe you should be spending the time learning how to be fun in real life, Watch some comedy shows, learn a few jokes, develop a sense of humour, learn how to flirt so that you can entertain and be of some interest to your dates.
Banter, quips, puns, clever and funny off the cuff remarks and witticisms are essential, without them she will find you lack lustre and no doubt boring.
You have an excellent example to follow in your friend who can charm the birds from the trees... I am not saying become your friend but there must be some pointers there that you could use. 

No, my friend loves trance parties, drinks, parties, has surreal level of confidence has many of the trappings of success so no I will never be able to charm people like he does. I do sometimes get to live vicariously at some of these house parties but the interest in me so low I just stopped going to them because I might as well just be a waiter or something like that. I can do banter if I have someone smart sitting across from me, then it can work fairly well but more often than not it does not work at all. I just resent having to put ALL the effort in, to the point where I cant be bothered anymore.

I am all for change but there is only so much a person can change to to be honest I have no reason to chase fundamental change, there is no upside for me and when I have chased change i just made myself unhappy in the process. When you think about it why change if there is no decent incentive or upside, a few years ago I did improve at lots of things purely because I thought those fundamental changes would mean I could date people I actually found attractive, which of course was not the case. 

No, for me the only way to change reality is to hope the target market has a change of view but why would they?

My point is I have a use, just not a use in terms of any sort of relationship at all. Every other guy is better at the emotional connection, the physical but I am better at most at simply caring enough to take interest in people who never take an interest in me. I am simply resigned myself to defeat here in terms of mutual attraction, furthermore I simply think it wont happen for me for a multitude of logical reasons and many reasons aligned to choices I made. I can go and pay and have a very attractive date sit across from me, I have done this but it does nothing for me, sure it does feel superficially good but its fundamentally false. Much like men who love strip clubs, why, sure you get attention but its all false.

No, after spending hours cycling this past week I just realised that the role of men in this world is to beg grovel, provide and hope we one day find a mate who chooses us and we hope we find her attractive enough. The easiest thing for men to find is superficial attention and I wont argue its nice, its a LOT better than sitting through some date where she has neither the looks nor the personality to excite, except I am that lady, not just nothing for interest to anyone barring those scraping the bottom of the barrel. 

Perhaps I have been blessed in life to live as vicariously, see the fantastic ladies who are out there, the ones who have the looks and the brains, the ones who are warm and friendly but also cursed because like that kid looking into the candy store and imagining the candy I am destined to do nothing more than just look on.

Sure rejection can be turned around, people can change, people can project differently it just depends where they are, have they had some success, no success, one success. If I could go back 20 years I'd tell myself to take more risks, grab the opportunities I did have when I was chased by reasonably attraction people. Get the experience when it was offered. 

When I see someone struggling I try help because I know what its like to get no help, do I deserve help with dating, probably not.  I do think people could have done things differently at various times and certain outcomes would have been better but I also recognise the world is an indifferent place. The irony is while I have no relationship experience I am always being asked for advice by others stuck in toxic relationships. The irony.