Re Honesty in relationships

[Curious978]

Women have constantly told me the importance of honesty in a relationship. I completely agree. If there is something that any rational thinking person would get upset about or need to know then I feel it's important to share that information. But if there is something that no rational thinking person would get upset about but I feel my girlfriend would I find it's best not to share it. If she gets angry with me about something that is insignificant and unimportant I will lie my brains off to get out of trouble as I'm not going to deal with someone being mad at me over something insignificant and unimportant. Insignificant and unimportant is something no rational thinking person would get upset about. If telling them the truth would hurt their feelings and I have done nothing wrong then I think it's best not to tell them the truth. If I occasionally lie to them because they are Bat s*** Crazy, then I think they should cut me some slack. I think relationships need a mutually agreed upon definition of a lie. I have found that the same women that tell me how important truth is in a relationship lie their brains out. But if no rational thinking person would get upset I don't care.I

I would be interested in getting other viewpoints. If people think I'm wrong or there is a better way to handle honesty in relationships then I would be interested in their feedback.

[Curious978]

I think that some women need to understand the importance of trust in a relationship. I have never in my life gone into a women's phone and read their test messages or gone into their computer and read their emails. I find this a fundamental violation of trust. Them actually reading my text and emails I probably would not mind if they didn't take perfectly innocent messages and twist them in their warped non trusting brains into something to get angry with me about. But I find them doing things because they don't trust me a violation of my trust if I have done nothing to deserve that lack of trust. Their insecurities do not justify these behaviors. If they wish to discuss their insecurities with me I'm happy to listen and help them work through their feelings. If they believe they know something I expect them to calmly discuss that with me before making the worse possible assumption and getting upset. The chances are their insecurities and lack of trust have led them into false assumptions. I understand the pain of insecurities and I'm empathetic but their pain should not be used to hurt me. I will help in anyway I can but they need to take responsibility for their trust issues and work on their thoughts and feelings to resolve within themselves.

[Wiseman2]

Mature secure people do not need to rifle through thier partners devices..

For 2 reasons. There's no need to even be suspicious and snooping will never tell the whole story.

Unfortunately there are couples who actually believe this regular policing is "trust" when in fact it's the opposite.

There's even quack marriage therapists who endorse this policing/distrust and refer to it as "transparency".

[Blind-Sided]

People who have trust issues are generally not trustworthy people.  Sure... they could have had a VERY bad relationship in the past... but the DEEP issues come from inside themselves.  So... if they think you are cheating... it's probably because they have done that in the past, and they think it's easy for everyone.   I've been cheated on... and I have been hurt... but those feelings never leak out to the next relationship because I know everyone is different. 

If their feelings are to the point of paranoia... then you need to break it off now.  They will never trust you, and you will have fights, and stress over the subject.  AND... eventually... that paranoia will be the end of it anyway. 

[elaine567]

I understand that there are insecure people who are inherently distrustful or who have learned to be excessively  distrustful through past experience, but I do think some people engender distrust in their SO by acting shady, lying or deliberately making their SO jealous as some sort of a power game.
It is easy to blame "insecurity" in a person when the reality is the insecurity can be merely a reaction to the behaviour of the other.
Trust is something earned.
If a person is acting in a way that is unlikely to cause a person to trust them, then they can hardly complain when they find they are not trusted..
Blind trust is a great thing, sure, but so many find that blind trust makes them out to be a gullible fool... when their trust is betrayed.
That is why people end up rifling through phone histories.
They want proof that all is OK, unfortunately it seems most whose gut is screaming "You can't trust this person" are found to be right.

[carhill]

Relationships are voluntary, even marriages. If it, here apparently demonstrated and perceived trust, don't flow, let it go.

[Shining One]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

They want proof that all is OK, unfortunately it seems most whose gut is screaming "You can't trust this person" are found to be right.

Any data to back up this claim?

[poppyfields]

1 hour ago, Shining One said:

Any data to back up this claim?

Yeah, just read all the threads on this forum and others (from both men AND women) attesting to it.  Gut feelings/intuition is a powerful thing.  

@Curious978, feel free to share your story of what prompted you to create this thread.  Did you recently discover your girlfriend snooping your devices?  If so, what did she find that caused her to become angry at you?  

Not accusing you of anything, she may very well have twisted things she read due to general lack of trust.  

But need more context to properly respond because every sitch is different.

Edited November 1, 2020 by poppyfields

[elaine567]

18 hours ago, Curious978 said:

I will lie my brains off to get out of trouble

And you wonder why women do not trust you? 

[poppyfields]

18 hours ago, Curious978 said:

 If telling them the truth would hurt their feelings and I have done nothing wrong then I think it's best not to tell them the truth. If I occasionally lie to them because they are Bat s*** Crazy, then I think they should cut me some slack. 

Sorry, missed your first post ^.  Now that I've read, WTF?  That's a pretty warped mindset dude. By lying, you only foster/encourage the distrust. It can become a viscous cycle of lying, distrust, snooping, more lying, lather, rinse repeat.

If you feel whomever you're dating is "batshyt crazy," which is insulting, debasing and disrespectful, dump her and seek someone more stable.

Edited November 1, 2020 by poppyfields

[Shining One]

1 hour ago, poppyfields said:

Yeah, just read all the threads on this forum and others (from both men AND women) attesting to it.  Gut feelings/intuition is a powerful thing.

Some people are unjustifiably paranoid and others have accurate gut feelings. I was just wondering if there was any data that clarified how many are the former and how many are the latter.

I had an ex snoop on me. Her gut feeling was wrong, but I bet she didn't go on a forum and admit it though.

[mark clemson]

I think a certain number of people are in "once bitten, twice shy" mode when it comes to trust. My philosophy is that 100% trust is foolhardy. Trust but verify. From what I've seen in life personally, the honor system doesn't seem to work that well. What happens when the government starts handing out reimbursements, for example? Fraud.

Edit: for clarity, this doesn't mean I go through my wife's texts. But I feel I should have permission to IF something comes up that gives me any real reason to doubt her. So far nothing has, but I may be fortunate in this regard.

Edited November 1, 2020 by mark clemson

[LuckyM]

Usually people esp women who say honesty is important mean that you should be honest or sensitive with them but not the reverse. They feel free to be dishonest with you. I have seen this many times and in surveys. Honesty trust sensitivity is so often a demand but not to the Other.  Not to the guy. But unimportant to you may be very important to her! Husbands know this issue.  So be honest up to a point without hurting yourself or her.  I have been too honest and that cost me gfs. I was naive and trusting too much

[Wiseman2]

22 hours ago, Curious978 said:

 If I occasionally lie to them because they are Bat s*** Crazy, then I think they should cut me some slack.

Discretion is important. For example lying about huge purchases, other women, etc. is out of the question. But, you don't have to blurt out everything that's on your mind. So your point is vague at best and you need to reconsider  being with crazy women.

[Foxhall]

I imagine where a lot of marriages or relationships fail,

they break the 11th commandment- if you cheat dont get caught,

I actually put up a thread similar to this a while ago, 

women in general appear to be very wary of two things-  number one cheating and number two- vices,

bottom line is if you are engaging in "questionable activity"- you are only asking for trouble if you divulge this to your partner,

like if for arguments sake- I lose 500 dollars on a horse - I would be just digging a hole if I divulge this to herself- some things are better not said.

 speaking for myself- I think if behaving honourably in a relationship as long as not cheating or doing something which I know would really upset her, then Im being a good boyfriend or partner and can have a clear conscience,

I might occasionally have the odd slip such as the one i described but those minor indiscretions shall we say are better kept a secret. I dont have to give all my secrets away.

 

 

 

[major_merrick]

I tend to believe there's a difference between overtly lying and simply omitting details.  Others may disagree.

[Watercolors]

16 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Mature secure people do not need to rifle through thier partners devices..

For 2 reasons. There's no need to even be suspicious and snooping will never tell the whole story.

Unfortunately there are couples who actually believe this regular policing is "trust" when in fact it's the opposite.

There's even quack marriage therapists who endorse this policing/distrust and refer to it as "transparency".

Au Contraire Mon Frere! I normally agree with you 100% of the time, but this is one area where I will need to disagree with you based on my own personal experiences.

When I was in a long-term relationship with a man who said he wanted to marry me (I know, I know, future talk is a red flag) I believed him. Turns out, he had been cheating on me for the entirety of our relationship with a woman he actually literally married.

Do you know how I found out about his cheating? I looked at his cellphone for evidence of his cheating and I found it. Sometimes, snooping is called for. The boards here with so many threads where people encourage the cheated-on spouse to install spyware on their spouse's phone and computer is abounds. All I did, was read through his text messages while he was occupied with something else and found mutual exchanges of feelings between them, on his cellphone.

That wasn't regular policing on my part. That was a one-off but a one-off that paid off.

I am a mature, secure person and I felt that I had no choice but to read through my then-boyfriend's text messages b/c his behavior was 100% off.

[MJJean]

On 10/31/2020 at 6:49 PM, Curious978 said:

If she gets angry with me about something that is insignificant and unimportant I will lie my brains off to get out of trouble as I'm not going to deal with someone being mad at me over something insignificant and unimportant.

My exH was like this. It's a large part of why he's my ex.

A) Someone else doesn't get to decide what is significant and important to me

B) If a man will lie about things that are "not significant and unimportant" there is no logical reason to believe he won't lie about other things, too. Once trust is gone there's really no point.

[Wiseman2]

9 hours ago, Watercolors said:

Do you know how I found out about his cheating? I looked at his cellphone for evidence of his cheating and I found it. .

Well exactly. First you had suspicions, then you simply confirmed it. Going through other's devices as a matter of routine is not really called for.

[elaine567]

4 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Going through other's devices as a matter of routine is not really called for.

I don't think anyone is advocating that.

Edited November 2, 2020 by elaine567
Typo

[Atwood]

Lying is a form of control - you want to control other people's emotions. That's the reason we all lie. Sometimes it's little stuff like "your hair suits you like that" because we want to damage control the emotions of the person / don't want to be responsible for their negative emotions. Other times, we deprive others of information they deserve to know because we are trying to keep them from reacting in a way we don't want to deal with.

This isn't to say it's always a bad thing to do, because sometimes we lie to children or people we care about so they don't get hurt (I promise everything is going to be okay/Of course Santa is real/it wasn't embarrassing at all and nobody even noticed that you did that!). Other times, lying to someone is a form of abuse/gaslighting. 

When you talk about honesty/lying, it really depends on the context. For example, it would be insensitive and unwise to tell your partner about every single attractive person you see if there's no intention to act on it. What would be the point other than for us to feel better about being radically honest? However, if you're lying about infidelity, you are depriving your partner of information they deserve to base their choices on. 

I imagine what's happening is that there's a mismatch between what you deem need-to-know and what your partners deem need-to-know. In some cases, it does also sound like your partners are invading your privacy, which is wrong. However, this is pretty telling:

Quote

But if there is something that no rational thinking person would get upset about but I feel my girlfriend would I find it's best not to share it. If she gets angry with me about something that is insignificant and unimportant I will lie my brains off to get out of trouble as I'm not going to deal with someone being mad at me over something insignificant and unimportant.

Yeah, it might be insignificant and unimportant to you, but that's not why you're lying. You're lying because you are trying to prevent her from reacting to information, so you just keep the information hidden instead. We all deserve to make informed decisions, and some people will consider certain information dealbreakers that you don't. Perhaps this is where compatibility becomes most important. You shouldn't have to keep important information from someone you're in a relationship with, and if you have very different ideas of what's important, it probably isn't going to work out anyway, and the arguments will be explosive and numerous. 

[SumGuy]

On 10/31/2020 at 6:49 PM, Curious978 said:

...

I would be interested in getting other viewpoints. If people think I'm wrong or there is a better way to handle honesty in relationships then I would be interested in their feedback.

There is nothing complicated in the definition of what a lie is.  I seriously wonder sometimes.  In general a lie is: the knowing making of a material misstatement of fact or the omission of a material fact with the intent to deceive.

An important word is material, trivial and unimportant would not be material....but then again what is trivial and unimportant is pretty subjective in a dating relationship.

A better way is to avoid relationships where you feel you need to lie or shade the truth on trivial matters (to you) to avoid the crazy.   Frankly, just don't lie.  I'm not saying have no filter, or be blunt (how you say the truth is important), just if you find that you need to lie about your normal day-to-day life because she can't deal with the truth you are not for each other.  No loss.

If it is those fishing comments like, "do I look fat in these jeans?" that's on you man.  Hint, if you like how she looks go with that.  Say I think you look great in those jeans, or I like how you look in the dress better...etc.  Honestly though, I stopped dating long ago women that would ask such a question as mine field or test.

[Watercolors]

8 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Well exactly. First you had suspicions, then you simply confirmed it. Going through other's devices as a matter of routine is not really called for.

Ah, touche. Yes, I agree that it's wrong to monitor a partner's media devices on a routine basis. That would be due to their paranoia; their own insecurity; their jealousy; their delusions; their need to be in control.

[SolG]

I kind of get what you're saying OP.  Sometimes it's important to qualify what honesty means in the context of a particular relationship. For instance when your SO asks what you got up to today, do you include the part where you spent five minutes discreetly admiring then fantasizing about the hot young gas station attendant who filled your tank on the way to work? Depending on your relationship, this could be construed as lying by omission if you left it out. And vice versa, telling it could be construed as too radical a disclosure, and while 'true' it could possibly be unacceptably hurtful.

Substitute I ran into an ex and we grabed a coffee, the extra couple of pounds doesn't make me love you less but it does make me feel less motivated to initiate sex with you, I innocently flirted with someone else and it was fun, my work function does allow partners but I didn't tell you because everyone else is going solo and I want to too, my best friend thinks you're awesome but doesn't want me to settle down, masturbating to trans porn doesn't impact our sex life but is something I regularly indulge in, I'd love to openly wear your panties around the house but am ashamed and worried you'll reject me... yadda yadda and so on...

It's an oft cited lament. He/she said they wanted to know EVERYTHING, and then when I told them EVERYTHING I was punished. So I decided to tell them nothing instead. 

It behooves everyone in a relationship to set the boundaries of what truth is to be told, and what truth should be withheld by agreed exception. And it should come with agreement to be, and express hurt without punishment. Then it's not lying your pants off - which is skeezy - it's applying those agreed boundaries. Have the conversation about the conversations you want to have. Then have those conversations in a compassionate, meaninful and respectful way. Unfortunately that takes courage and maturity on both partners' behalf, so it's exceedingly rare. 

[Fletch Lives]

Trust is one of the cornerstones of a relationship. A woman can only love you as much as she can trust you. And for a relationship to be the best it can be, you need a whole lotta love.......and therefore trust.

So no, you can't lie. However, there is a difference between openness and honesty. You don't have to share everything, particularly negative things. Just keep you mouth shut about some things.