On the Subject of 'Leagues'

[Miss Spider]

A friend of mine brought up this topic by saying to me, “I am seeing this guy right now and he is so ‘out of my league’ [that it makes me] feel insecure.” 

This statement seems counterintuitive to me, and not just because it’s self-refuting. 

In my opinion, there are just too many facets to what makes a person generally attractive (insofar as we can generalize that), to accurately qualify what ‘league’ someone would fit into. 
 

How do you qualify personality or social value(popularity?) Also, a person generally considered physically attractive dating a person generally considered famous wouldn’t trip our league sensor, but if you add the  attractive person has a ton of money, does that set it off?

You could say it depends on the individuals involved, of course,  but there is still this concept we call ‘leagues’.  I guess leagues are something that is more observable an outside perspective. We have an idea that people of roughly the same ‘value’ should choose each other, but that value is constructed from our own subjective frames.

 

It becomes murkier when we’re talking about ourselves and who we should date. I have heard people here and elsewhere say that they only date within their league. They didn’t just mean to say they would only date people who would accept them, but they are only interested in people that they believe are equivalent to them in some way
 

 

 

What are your thoughts?  Do you think ‘leagues’ exist and has it influenced your dating behavior? 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Shortskirtslonglashes

[MeadowFlower]

I don't think leagues exist in reality. 'Leagues' are foolish human pride. Anyone who considers themselves of greater value because he or she is better looking than others or because the have more money, is disillusioned. Furthermore, they are suffocating in pride and folly. 

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by MeadowFlower

[SumGuy]

Agree with the above.  
They can also hold you back.  

[ajequals]

Your friend seems to have an extreme value of herself. Is she a feminist ? May I ask your ages? 

[salparadise]

Oh they exist alright. You may not be a fan of thinking in those terms, or the word itself, but leagues exist. Yes, it's a human construct rather than objective reality, similar to perceptions of race. We almost never choose mates that are far from us in terms of social standing and/or attractiveness. It may happen occasionally, but not often. It certainly influences my behavior, as well as everyone else's.  I suspect that you philosophically don't subscribe to hierarchical mode of viewing social equity, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it doesn't affect you.

[SumGuy]

4 hours ago, salparadise said:

...  I suspect that you philosophically don't subscribe to hierarchical mode of viewing social equity, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it doesn't affect you.

I agree with that.  For me it doesn't make the concept of "leagues" any more real in objective terms, and it seems to be a way to avoid facing the more complex and difficulty parts of attraction, and reducing it to looks and money.   It can lead to arrogance in those who hold themselves to be in a upper league and lost opportunities for those who feel they do not make the cut.   Like all hierarchical tools, when those at the "top" don't get what they want they get upset because they think they deserve it due to their place in the hierarchy.

So believe it is a view that provides little utility to understand attraction and a lot of down side.  Certainly it exists, certainly many people use the lense...my view is avoid like the plague those it give it credence as a genuine decision making tool.  Better in my opinion to have the courage to admit that whatever your preferences are they are just purely subjective and yours, nothing wrong with that, but not to make decisions or justify your decisions based on if someone is or is not in your "league."

[Weezy1973]

Leagues exist and they’re best understood not as a function of certain qualities (ex. Looks, money, charm, education etc.), but instead as a function of options. The more people that are attracted to you, and the higher quality those options are (defined by their options) the higher the league. 
 

An unfortunate disservice to the idea of leagues is the 1-10 scale. In reality leagues are much more subtle and nuanced. So think instead of a 1-1000 scale. Whereas it might seem hard to imagine a “9” paired up with a “5”, it’s much easier to see that a “599” is paired up with a “595”. 
 

We know leagues exist by something called the matching phenomenon which shows that long term couples pair up in terms of attractiveness. 
 

The other thing that’s helpful to understand is that we tend to feel the most attraction to people that are somewhat “out of our league”. Or to be more precise, about 20% more attractive than us. However we’re pretty much never attracted to people who are a lower league than ourselves. 
 

So one of the keys, especially if you’re online dating, is to understand that the profiles you’re most drawn to will likely not yield success, as they’re more likely to be out of your league. It’s the next group, or the profiles that elicit more neutral feelings, where success is more likely. This is tough with online dating as it gives the illusion that there’s always a better option out hyperextended. Why settle for this “neutral” initial attraction when there are so many other profiles with stronger attraction. And this is the struggle that we see over and over with people struggling with dating. 

[Miss Spider]

12 hours ago, ajequals said:

Your friend seems to have an extreme value of herself. Is she a feminist ? May I ask your ages? 

May I ask what you mean by extreme value of herself? I guess I felt minimizes her value, but that is only my perspective. She is 27, gorgeous blonde with big boobs, sweet disposition, and a good career. All beside the point because she does not think that she is good enough for the guy she’s dating, so she might end it. 

 

9 hours ago, salparadise said:

.  I suspect that you philosophically don't subscribe to hierarchical mode of viewing social equity, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it doesn't affect you.

You are correct that I find it morally I wrong. However, that is not the problem I have with it. The arguments I presented in OP ( albeit very, very simplified) withstanding, I never said that leagues do not exist. I said that if they exist it is much more on a spectrum, and it is to diluted by  subjectivity to be that meaningful. So why someone would let that influence their dating choices is beyond me.  

Edited November 8, 2020 by Shortskirtslonglashes

[Miss Spider]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

L be

 

So one of the keys, especially if you’re online dating, is to understand that the profiles you’re most drawn to will likely not yield success, as they’re more likely to be out of your league. It’s the next group, or the profiles that elicit more neutral feelings, where success is more likely. This is tough with online dating as it gives the illusion that there’s always a better option out hyperextended. Why settle for this “neutral” initial attraction when there are so many other profiles with stronger attraction. And this is the struggle that we see over and over with people struggling with dating. 

Thanks for your thoughts.
 

 When  you take a study from dating app web app and other studies that try to quantify dating value, it gives a general view of what people like on average. And that is good and perhaps useful. 
The problem I see, that I tried to explain a little bit in OP, is taking this general information and trying to apply it to an individual.

 

. I will use the above to illustrate. This assumes that the person this individual is more likely to be attracted to someone outside of their ‘league’( by your definition, someone who has more suitors). More likely, perhaps. However, I don’t think you would argue that there are plenty of people who do not have as many suitors  as that individua(, therefore below their league), who is not attracted to them. 

 

[Weezy1973]

3 minutes ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said:

However, I don’t think you would argue that there are plenty of people who do not have as many suitors  as that individua(, therefore below their league), who is not attracted to them. 

 

Yes of course. I think the idea of leagues only has value to people who struggle with dating as it may be one of the reasons they’re struggling. If someone is consistently shooting out of their league and failing, might be worth some introspection.

Of course most people don’t struggle with dating. Most adults are married or in a long term relationship.

[Miss Spider]

20 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Yes of course. I think the idea of leagues only has value to people who struggle with dating as it may be one of the reasons they’re struggling. If someone is consistently shooting out of their league and failing, might be worth some introspection.

Of course most people don’t struggle with dating. Most adults are married or in a long term relationship.

Maybe, but I am not so sure.
wouldn’t that introspection be better used by asking oneself ‘ what can I do to be a more overall better  partner?’( in that case generalizations are useful) rather than asking oneself ‘am I asking out people that are too good for me than me and should I start asking out people that are less? ‘ . One seems much  more  constructive. Also, in the example that you gave, we agreed  an individual in the dating app too 20%  may not necessarily only  be attracted only be attracted to the dating apps top 20%, so they could be missing an opportunity. 
 

 

another problem I see with the studies and general dating site data that quantifies attractiveness is how simplified it is and has to be. We are looking at pictures on a dating app and maybe reading a few sentence description and taking who gets the most interest out of that. There’s absolutely nothing else involved as far as their personality, for example. They could be a completely awful person with a bunch of disorders(which I’m sure some are)? Their ‘league’ would surely go down? 
 

And the case of the couples being paired up. How that study was conducted was a group of people (not even that large) were asked to rate both of them based solely on their appearance and they found that the couples generally were rated similarly. But I think everyone here agrees about more than physical attractiveness is taking in account designating someone to a league. 
 

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Shortskirtslonglashes

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said:

Maybe, but I am not so sure.
wouldn’t that introspection be better used by asking oneself ‘ what can I do to be a more overall better  partner?’( in that case generalizations are useful) rather than asking oneself ‘am I asking out people that are too good for me than me and should I start asking out people that are less? ‘ 

Two sides of the same coin. It depends on how much control one has on their attractiveness, and that will vary person to person.

 

1 hour ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said:

Also, in the example that you gave, we agreed  an individual in the dating app too 20%  may not necessarily only  be attracted only be attracted to the dating apps top 20%, so they could be missing an opportunity. 

So, I wasn’t saying people are most attracted to those in the top 20%. The studies show people tend to be most attracted to people who are 20% more attractive than themselves. So if you’re a ‘5’, you’ll be most attracted to ‘6s’. Which is why you’ll often see people lament that they’re not trying for supermodels, just regular looking people. Because they’re not interested in 9s (likely because subconsciously they know it’s a waste of energy), but they don’t realize the people they’re most attracted to are still out of their league, only less so.

 

1 hour ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said:

We are looking at pictures on a dating app and maybe reading a few sentence description and taking who gets the most interest out of that. There’s absolutely nothing else involved as far as their personality, for example.

Yup, but in that case that’s what’s measuring the league. If it’s only pics and a blurb, that’s what’s used in the hierarchy. In a real life situation, where people get to know each other, leagues would still exist, but the parameters used would be broader. It doesn’t matter if it’s a dating app or in real life, some people are most appealing in general than others.

 

1 hour ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said:

And the case of the couples being paired up. How that study was conducted was a group of people (not even that large) were asked to rate both of them based solely on their appearance and they found that the couples generally were rated similarly. But I think everyone here agrees about more than physical attractiveness is taking in account designating someone to a league. 

There have been multiple studies showing the same phenomenon, and if looks weren’t much of a factor in how leagues are set, then the matching phenomenon would not exist. But it does. 
 

And mostly the advice I give to people who are doing predominantly OLD is to broaden the scope of those you’re willing to meet to not only the profiles you’re most interested in, but also those that you’re neutral about. Attraction can grow based on those non-superficial qualities that an OLD profile can’t capture.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Weezy1973

[poppyfields]

2 hours ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said:

She is 27, gorgeous blonde with big boobs, sweet disposition, and a good career. All beside the point because she does not think that she is good enough for the guy she’s dating, so she might end it. 

Is this^ about leagues though?  Sounds like your friend has extremely low self-esteem and a very low value of herself, generally.  Who's to say she wouldn't feel the same with a man within or below her "league"?  

Looks mean jack, some of the most beautiful women on the face of the planet are the most insecure of all.  Men too!  

I experienced this when working in NYC.  I worked around some seriously gorgeous men and women who were also seriously insecure.   Re their looks, intelligence, all of it. 

With regard to leagues, I know they exist for some people. They never did for me.  I never gave what "league" someone was in a second thought, it never even occurred to me.

In fact, had never even heard of "leagues" until after joining my first forum after my ex and I broke up in late 2015.

Edited November 8, 2020 by poppyfields

[Miss Spider]

45 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

 

Yup, but in that case that’s what’s measuring the league. If it’s only pics and a blurb, that’s what’s used in the hierarchy. In a real life situation, where people get to know each other, leagues would still exist, but the parameters used would be broader. It doesn’t matter if it’s a dating app or in real life, some people are most appealing in general than others.

 

Broader, indeed. Refer to the example of  personality I gave in op. Who is to say that a person’s beauty makes up for their histrionic personality disorder, thereby placing them in a higher ‘league’ than a person who is marginally less beautiful but doesn’t have HPD? How would that pan out in the  ‘averages’? That seems like a very personal call. And there are so many other factors besides that. Maybe the marginally less a beautiful  one has social anxiety, but a higher paying job. 
Leagues can really only be looked at in the broader, more general sense. 

 

26 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

Is this^ about leagues though?  Sounds like your friend has extremely low self-esteem and a very low value of herself, generally.  Who's to say she wouldn't feel the same with a man within or below her "league"?  

Looks mean jack, some of the most beautiful women on the face of the planet are the most insecure of all.  Men too!  

I experienced this when working in NYC.  I worked around some seriously gorgeous men and women who were also seriously insecure.  

With regard to leagues, I know they exist for some people. They never did for me.  I never gave what "league" someone was in a second thought, it never even occurred to me.

In fact, had never even heard of "leagues" until after joining my first forum after my ex and I broke up in late 2015.

Perhaps she does. She doesn’t seem to have many markers of low self esteem, but maybe. I assumed she meant leagues only because she mentioned them. She specifically said she felt this guy is out of her league.

 

thanks for your thoughts 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Shortskirtslonglashes

[basil67]

I have to confess that when I read "I'm good looking, fit and healthy so I deserve someone like me" I do little sick in my mouth.   The problem with those who are so conscious of 'leagues' is their sense of entitlement. 

 If one is chronically single because of their entitlement issues, they are getting what they deserve.

[Miss Spider]

17 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I have to confess that when I read "I'm good looking, fit and healthy so I deserve someone like me" I do little sick in my mouth.   The problem with those who are so conscious of 'leagues' is their sense of entitlement. 

 If one is chronically single because of their entitlement issues, they are getting what they deserve.

Yes. I have read that a lot here. I’ve seen people say something along the lines of, “ I am told all the time am good looking. I take good care of myself physically, have a great job, great personality etc etc. so why am I not having luck and why should I have to date someone who doesn’t have it like I do? ” it’s another example of this ambiguous leagues thing obfuscating the real issue. Classifying yourself into a category and feeling entitled to something within that category because of that.  And wondering why you are disappointed. 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Shortskirtslonglashes

[basil67]

Frankly, if someone was all that, they wouldn't be single for long at all.  I think that of the long term singles, too many view themselves too highly.

[stillafool]

45 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

I never gave what "league" someone was in a second thought, it never even occurred to me.

In fact, had never even heard of "leagues" until after joining my first forum after my ex and I broke up in late 2015.

Me either as it pertains to looks, I always thought it was about education and achievements.  My how the world has changed.

[Miss Spider]

10 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Frankly, if someone was all that, they wouldn't be single for long at all.  I think that of the long term singles, too many view themselves too highly.

Yes, if they are single and not by choice I agree with you. But at the end of the day; no one is really all that. 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Shortskirtslonglashes

[Lotsgoingon]

Did you friend indicate in what way this man is supposedly out of her league.

Your friend would do better to identify the specific differences and perhaps identify her own insecurities. I mean, if she's dating a guy who is fit and works out hard and who reads two serious books a week and she's a couch potato who doesn't read much at all, then I would say that's not a good fit of interests. And yes, your friend would in this scenario probably feel insecure from worry that her man will ultimately find her life lacking.

But that's being very specific--not making the broad generalization of him being "out of her league."

Do you know what mismatch of qualities she's referring to?

 

 

 

 

 

[Miss Spider]

5 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

Did you friend indicate in what way this man is supposedly out of her league.

Your friend would do better to identify the specific differences and perhaps identify her own insecurities. I mean, if she's dating a guy who is fit and works out hard and who reads two serious books a week and she's a couch potato who doesn't read much at all, then I would say that's not a good fit of interests. And yes, your friend would in this scenario probably feel insecure from worry that her man will ultimately find her life lacking.

But that's being very specific--not making the broad generalization of him being "out of her league."

Do you know what mismatch of qualities she's referring to?

 

 

 

 

 

She thinks he is too good-looking and he is a doctor, she works in real estate.
 

I think he is borderline physically unattractive, but that’s just my opinion 

[major_merrick]

I think that it really varies by the personality of your "target."  Also varies depending on the attributes they find important.  I don't consider myself to be stunningly attractive... on a 1-10 scale I would rate myself around 5.  Yet, I've been able to be with some exceptionally attractive girls.  My two GFs are what I consider to be 10's.  IDK what they see in me, but for whatever reason I'm the one they want.  Looked at GF#1's porn files at one point... full of girls who have a similar build to mine.  Obviously, personal preference matters a lot.

So, I wouldn't be afraid to date "out of my league."

[poppyfields]

28 minutes ago, stillafool said:

Me either as it pertains to looks, I always thought it was about education and achievements.  My how the world has changed.

For me, it's about substance.  Mutual energy/chemistry which goes beyond looks/appearance and impossible to define.  

Not to say looks aren't important, they are, but it's subjective.  One person's 9-10 is another person's 6.  And vice versa.  

I think if more people learned how to connect on a deeper, more substantive level, perhaps this "leagues" business would hold less meaning and power for them.

shortskirts, I'm curious what your friend is basing this feeling on, that he is 'out of her league'?

Does she think he's better looking, smarter, better educated, what?  

To me, wouldn't it be more important to focus on their mutual connection and attraction?  

He's obviously into her, he chose her, why is this not good enough?  Unless there is more to her insecurity than her feeling he's out of some elusive league she's created for herself, which she wants to dump him for?  

Try as I might, I cannot wrap my brain around that.

Edited November 8, 2020 by poppyfields

[Lotsgoingon]

I mean clear lots of doctors happily end up with non doctors. Sounds like your friend is intimidated maybe by her bf's education and profession. One question for her to ask herself--building of majormerrick--is what does she think HE sees in her. She might be much more attractive than she thinks she is, might be a lot more fun than she thinks he is. 

Is your friend insecure? And I don't mean that in the putdown way or the pathological way. I mean in the way that she doesn't think very highly of herself. 

Sounds like your friend is intimidated by him. I assume she's never before dated someone with the professional status of the doctor?

 

[Miss Spider]

@poppy and lots

yes, there is more to the story. It is a really long ordeal. Basically it has been a couple months at least they’ve been seeing each other  he has been kind of distant with her lately and apparently not as responsive to her efforts at communication...

 

So it is seems it’s not just her perception he is better than her that is causing her insecurities. It is coupled with him pulling away. And she stated she wants pull the plug on it because it is just causing her too stress. The “games” This is what I am assuming her to mean by what she’s told me. Maybe I should get her to post here
 

 

She seems to have good self-esteem from what I know about her. She’s confident and outgoing. She doesn’t outright say it; but I have always had the  impression feels physically attractive and has a lot to offer. Again though,  she could be hiding deep seated insecurities about herself that I do not know of. 

 She’s talked a lot about this man like he is perfect and everything she wants in a man. If he has ghosted her, and from what she has said tonight that may be the case, I feel that she will pin this on the leagues thing. That he was just too out of her league and she should not date good looking surgeons...when it is just the case other incompatibilities. 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Shortskirtslonglashes