I think my wife is cheating on me with a coworker

[Pottering About]

Good luck tomorrow, I hope you are able to continue to make progress. 
 

I think that, although you have mood swings, you have a pretty good idea of how you want to move forward and I am not sure whether you are going to get any more useful advice that has not already been offered. In fact, I think some advice has been counter-productive, bordering on toxic at times. 
 

This forum will always be available if you want to vent or, hopefully, give updates. However, giving yourself until the New Year indicates you are in this for the longer term. Is it time to step back now to give yourself a break and see how the next 2 months pan out without external pressures? 
 

Here is hoping for a happy ending (minds out of gutters 😆), whatever that looks like, but I would like to know how this pans out. 

[MickeyBill]

Taking a break is probably a good idea, but the intense discussion needed to happen. With my XWW our discussions/arguments would be about 10 seconds until someone left or slammed a door so nothing was ever "finished", and that was where therapy helped, the therapist would make us keep talking, neither could storm away.

Also giving yourself a date of say Jan 31 you will take a look at the progress and see if things have gotten better /worse or stagnant  but that doesn't mean you will decide that day, you may give another month or two or my decide it's over.

Are you in your mind convinced she is honest about how far things went (only kissing and groping) ? It would be awful to reconcile then in 4 years "the guilt is killing me" and she confesses to more. Maybe give her a one time truth amnesty where you may or may not forgive but if it comes out later they had sex then the D is going to happen. 

Tough place to be for both of you.

[Pottering About]

MickeyBill, absolutely agree that the intense discussions had to happen. I think your advice here is sound.

[merrmeade]

Sorry if I missed this but are you both in the house. Just asking because if you settle back into life as you knew it, you might make your ultimatum less convincing.

[BMI03]

I’m sorry you are going through this. You are handling it extremely well so you should be proud of yourself for that. 
 

I think your wife loves you and is regretful. The throwing up was partial evidence of that. However, there is one part of her story that doesn’t add up for me, that I would suggest looking at. Cheaters are liars to safe themselves from getting in more trouble. She said the second insistent was making out for 10 minutes in his car?

Maybe this is just me but that doesn’t add up for me. Adults don’t ‘make our’ for 10 minutes. Adults kiss, maybe a minute, or two max, and then it goes somewhere or it doesn’t. Think about how long 10 minutes is to ONLY be kissing. Really, set a timer and look at the couch and let 10 minutes go buy. That’s a long time. If you do it, and have doubts, ask your wife next time she is there to sit with you and do nothing for 10 minutes. Watch how long 10 minutes is in that context. 
 

There are follow up questions. 10 minutes...were they both in the front seat? 10 minute is a long time to be positioned with a steering wheel in front of you, or leaning over a center arm rest. Or if not, did they move to the back seat? Why?

I don’t want this to get worse for you. I really don’t. But I do want you to get to the truth so you ca truly heal. I would believe they kissed for a minute or two in the front seat, or the did more than kiss in the back seat, but I have a hard time buying spending 10 minutes kissing only. Probe. 
 

Good luck

[TobyBoy]

I think you should prepare yourself for what’s coming. Good luck in your talks today. 

[Tempocontour316]

Please give us an update after your meeting with your lawyer.

[Loneheart]

On 11/14/2020 at 8:58 PM, merrmeade said:

Sorry if I missed this but are you both in the house. Just asking because if you settle back into life as you knew it, you might make your ultimatum less convincing.

I just realized that I commented on this because I thought it was to me. I was confused because someone else said something about a wife and I was like I dont have a wife lol. One of these days ill get the hang of these forums. Sorry for the mix up.

[colingrant]

You're a pretty smart guy. Your principles are rock solid and that's placed you in somewhat of a predicament. You love your wife and you also know you will (or at least think you know) divorce her if you find out she's minimizing the affection. The truth changes your life so you have a taken a position against polygraph.

Your wife chose to lie to you on multiple occasions so that's been proven, yet you say if you can't trust your wife you have no marriage. Well, she's already proven that on multiple occasions so one could say you're already at the point of not having a marriage if lying is the boundary violation that leads to divorce.  Plus, if you're willing to retrieve texts to retrieve the truth, then that same principle can be used with polygraph considerations. 

I think you know there is not turning back from the poly as you are in control at this point and the moment you agree to a poly you're no longer in control. I get it. I'm not pointing this out corner you, but only to crystalize this so that you can view it from a perspective that helps with your thinking. I'll also say this. The question of sex will never go away. You'll either divorce without knowing it or you will reconcile. If you reconcile you will never be settled without knowing the truth. It's not in your make-up.

Call if gamesmanship if you will, but your marriage is no game and the foundation of it is  truth which I believe you should get for the sake of your personal peace. From what I've read you have reasons to think she has and some to think it hasn't happened. My take...

Her physical (getting sick) and emotional responses are are consistent with someone who violated a major marriage boundary that exceeds texts and kissing or her fear of the marriage is so great it causes a hyper reaction. Fine line here. She doesn't fear you recovering texts so that tells me there's possibly nothing incriminating in them or she forgot that their is something.

I would simply ask her "if you were polygraphed what would I find out"? I would leave it at that and wait 48 hours to see if she comes back with something.  No gamesman ship here. It's just a hypothetical question that would incite a reaction of no reaction or one that's telling. If you did this and placed a VAR in her car you would find out something as she'd call her sister or mom. 

The fact that her AP said "We'll see about that" tells me he's bold, fearless, confident and your wife gave him signals indicating she could be talked to this way. He saw he had her and was cold enough to actually tell her. A 10 minute make out session was unquestionably minimized and probably took 20-30 minutes. He has a boner and she's wet and bothered. Adults in this situation typically go a little further than high schoolers.

Minimally, hands were inside clothes and private parts were manipulated. If I'm (and I have been many times) him, and straight up sex isn't or can't happen, I'm going as far as humanly possible lust is the driver. Hence, zippers and buttons are opening stuff up. We're talking adults who are mutually attracted. His late night text wording and discomfort in your presence  suggests he hit a double or triple with your wife with no outs and scoring a run was just a matter of time.   

Edit:

By the way, if she  kissed the guy, I'd file and decide during the processing period to follow through with it or not. See, kissing  is simply the precursor to sex. She'll never admit to it but by the same token she never thought she'd ever have another man's tongue in her mouth also, so to say it wouldn't happen is untrue. If he felt her up down below (2nd base) then that's worse.  If sex, then you have to do what you have to do. 

Edited November 16, 2020 by colingrant
Add

[elaine567]

I don't think the vomiting episode is any proof of whether or not she had sex with the guy.
She may have, she may not have, both are entirely possible... 
Affairs for women are often not sex driven. They can be more about connection and feelings.
Yes sex  can happen and can be gratefully received but sex is often not the main driver.
Love, validation, being heard, being listened to, taking back control, even taking revenge can be more important.

I think the vomiting episode was due to the sudden realisation that her marriage may actually be over, that what she had done was not "fixable"..

Seems to me many betrayed men are focused primarily on whether or not a woman had sex.
No sex = no divorce, sex = divorce, when that is probably the least of his problems.
Some affairs are about power, control and resentment, that to me is a more serious problem than whether or not his wife actually had sex with the guy at work..

[Pottering About]

I am really pleased you posted this elaine567 as it gives a woman’s perspective, not just for this post. colingrant’s post is pretty hard hitting, especially as it is well written and comes across as supportive to the OP with no anger issues that may be found in others’ posts. 
 

Very difficult for the OP and hope he gets the support from this forum he deserves

[MrFlibble_is_very_cross]

On 11/13/2020 at 7:40 PM, Robert2016 said:

Every spouse has a right to feel safe from infidelity.  PA or EA, your wife's behavior is a big fail.  Even though she broke it off with the OM, she still has to fix herself so it doesn't happen again.

It's her responsibility to rebuild your trust (and it requires more than just the words "I'll never do it again or trust me" or tears & self recrimination or promises). Your wife needs to understand that under the circumstances she is now a liar - and you can't believe anything she says. 

Part of rebuilding trust is to convince you that she will not repeat again with some other guy that helps her at work, makes her feel special or pretty.

1 -  Let your wife write up a detailed timeline (including their conversations and especially how each contact made her feel, as well as how she felt when she returned home and/or lied to you).  The exercise of writing it all down acknowledges and allows her to very deeply confront herself with what she did (a necessary starting point to fix herself).

2 - I suggest you both read the book about how to protect your marriage ('Not Just Friends' by dr shirley glass - or a similar book).  It's based on research of couples that experienced infidelity. You'll both have a better understanding about how this mess happened and what she can do going forward to protect her marriage (to you or her next life partner).

3 - You've suffered a major life changing trauma from someone you trusted (google:  PTSD).  Read up on the symptoms and stages so you're at least familiar with what's happening. You flip flopping between R and D is typical.  As time goes on you'll become more centered.

4 - You should both read a book about:  how to help your spouse heal from infidelity (there's one by MacDonald).  There's many self help books on the topic and will provide your wife an understanding of the damage she did to you and what she can do.

 

 

   

 

Thank you on your recommendations. I will look it up. Everytime I feel like it's getting more stable something just blows up. See my update

 

I won't make any big decision without proper thoughts @pepperbird2, that's not how I do things.

Yes, she did what she did because she wanted to. Simple and very accurate answer to question WHY?. I think anybody can make a bad decision, a mistake, have a lapse in judgement. But those are drunken kisses at a Christmas party. Not a months long affair - that requires planning, lying and deceiving. 

On 11/14/2020 at 4:15 PM, gamon said:

You're making some bad impulsive decisions. If divorce is a strong possibility you should never have told her you were consulting with an attorney and even more importantly, she never should have quit her job. You'll end up paying most of your net income to her in child and spousal support. Worst case scenario once you divorce she'll hook back up with the other guy and he'll move into your house while you've barely got enough money left to put a roof over your own head. Sounds unbelievable doesn't it. It happens. All the time.

 

I am not. I should have told her and I did. Divorce is a strong possibility from a beginning and she knows that. I am even surprised I still haven't filed yet.

Also, we don't live in the US (and not US citizens - we are full european breed), marriage law is a lot different here. If we divorce she is entitled for a child support (not that much, it sucks here) and no spousal support (that's admissable only in case there is a serious reason why she can't get a job - ilness, baby up to 2 years, etc.). And She's not moving anyone into our house. We either continue our relationship/marriage or we sell the house. There is no third option I'm afraid. 

 

On 11/15/2020 at 2:58 AM, merrmeade said:

Sorry if I missed this but are you both in the house. Just asking because if you settle back into life as you knew it, you might make your ultimatum less convincing.

She stays at her parents but comes here every day to see our kids. 

 

On 11/15/2020 at 10:40 AM, BMI03 said:

I’m sorry you are going through this. You are handling it extremely well so you should be proud of yourself for that. 
 

I think your wife loves you and is regretful. The throwing up was partial evidence of that. However, there is one part of her story that doesn’t add up for me, that I would suggest looking at. Cheaters are liars to safe themselves from getting in more trouble. She said the second insistent was making out for 10 minutes in his car?

Maybe this is just me but that doesn’t add up for me. Adults don’t ‘make our’ for 10 minutes. Adults kiss, maybe a minute, or two max, and then it goes somewhere or it doesn’t. Think about how long 10 minutes is to ONLY be kissing. Really, set a timer and look at the couch and let 10 minutes go buy. That’s a long time. If you do it, and have doubts, ask your wife next time she is there to sit with you and do nothing for 10 minutes. Watch how long 10 minutes is in that context. 
 

There are follow up questions. 10 minutes...were they both in the front seat? 10 minute is a long time to be positioned with a steering wheel in front of you, or leaning over a center arm rest. Or if not, did they move to the back seat? Why?

I don’t want this to get worse for you. I really don’t. But I do want you to get to the truth so you ca truly heal. I would believe they kissed for a minute or two in the front seat, or the did more than kiss in the back seat, but I have a hard time buying spending 10 minutes kissing only. Probe. 
 

Good luck

Thanky you for your kind word. It means a lot. Yes, I know my wife loves me - that's why this hurts like bi.ch. The rest was hard to read, but now I think I know the truth. See my update.

13 hours ago, S2B said:

You know she is sorry she got caught - what you really need to know is IF she is sorry she did it.

has she started individual counseling yet? Is she learning anything about herself and why she betrayed you? 

I am pretty sure she's sorry for what she's done to me, our kids and even to herself. Not that I caught her. I think that it't too soon for counseling now, It's been only a week. But we will get there. 

[MrFlibble_is_very_cross]

I might disappear for few days after this, sorry. But I bet you can understand writing on here's not my top priority right now. 

 

But I am still very grateful for every response here. You prople help me to stay afloat.

 

So.. update. 

 

 Today has been a hell of a day.

 

Firstly, cat's out of a bag so to speak. My wife got call from an HR this morning. Somebody apparently reported them both. She called me right away why I did that, told her I didn't.

 

She called me again in tears an hour later to tell me SH's GF called HER and yelled at her for good 20 minutes. Then she wanted to speak to me.

 

So I called her in between meetings. 

 

She apparently found the NC message my wife sent over the weekend and went into investigation. We spoke about the situation we are in, I gave her my part of a story and we put together what we know. 

 

She's obviously the one who reported them to HR. Said she had some suspicion about the two, but since SH never let her into his phone there was no proof. She somehow found out the password and voilà!

 

On a positive note - looks like SH didn't bother deleting any messages. She has them all and sent me everything after our conversation. She also kicked SH out since He lives in HER appartment. Won't lie, great sense of justice. 

 

 

 

So I got the screenshots. Lots of them. 

 

Sort of good news/bad news.

 

Good news - I am now 100% positive they didn't have sex. It was never explicitly discussed, but He texted her apologizing for pushing her into it and she told him this was too much and they should stop. Other messages were hard to read, but they are in line with what she told me. Also if those messages are not some sort od cleaned up version of events they didn't text all that much, definitely less then I thought after my W told me she deleted some messages and even whole conversations.

 

No sexting. Just some inuendos and flirting from both sides. I was mentioned only few times and never in a bad way, more like off-hand comment. Guess there was no place for me or kids in their Neverland. 

 

Bad news - He told my wife multiple times He's in love with her. She either didn't adress it at all or downplayed it. This made me angry because I asked her directly before and she denied this. 

 

Also SH' GF would like to meet in person, not sure if it's a good idea. 

 

My wife doesn't know I have them. I want to process this before we talk again. Yesterday I thought we made a progress. And now this. At least I know bigger portion of a truth now. 

 

I also had a skype appointment with a lawyer today. Looked like a right guy, just a few years older than me. I told him my story and then let him speak. Looks like if we agree on kids and a house we can be done in 3 months. I was actually surprised, I thought I took longer than that. There is also no separation period.

 

That's probably too fast for me. I don't want to rush it, also 3 month is way too soon to see if there is any hope for us. So I won't file this year.

 

Wife has been trying to reach me since morning and I am playing it cool, just told her I need some time now.

 

We have a bank holiday tommorow, so we are both free. Not sure if it's good or bad. 

[TobyBoy]

Well here’s your chance to get some more truth from your wife. Tell her,  “GF found out the truth and SH confessed everything and even gave up all the texts....so start talking or I’m gone”.

eta: Don’t be surprise if NC was broken also. It mostly always happens after being exposed. 

Edited November 16, 2020 by TobyBoy

[TobyBoy]

Just want to make you aware that banks take these breaches very seriously. Expect full investigations into every aspect of your wife’s and SH relationship. I’m talking video recording, which no doubt will be very revealing and interviews with all team members. Full analysis of company cell phones....

In other words......your wife’s career is over! 

[Pottering About]

Wow, big news. 

Her response to him professing love was avoidance. I would suggest she was uncomfortable with it and did not feel the same. If she was in the affair fog and did love him, then I am sure she would have said so. I would also question his motives for saying he loved her and whether it was genuine.

Can we revisit your lines in the sand - no sex, no I Love You on her part anyway, no plans for a future life. How are feeling about these now? You also have the texts which seem to confirm everything your wife told you.

You say that you thought you made progress yesterday and now this happened. From an outsiders point of view, you have more certainty about your lines in the sand and the texts. Some of the texts do hurt but I hope you come to see today’s revelations as the point at which you can now move forward. As a bonus, SH got his come uppance and you did not have any part in it (result).  You never did get to rock bottom of her having sex.

The BAD NEWS - SH has nothing to lose and may try to pick up again with your wife, at least as a short term backstop. What are you going to do about that? 
 

Glad you are taking your time about any divorce and I wish you all he very best. Please don’t let others’ dark thoughts get in your head.

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by Pottering About
Update

[colingrant]

Excellent news all around. The bad news is not as bad as what could have been. You are informed and thus far have reason to believe you know it all. I'd meet with the girlfriend as she is where you were a couple weeks back and need help confirming stuff. Plus, you may find out something else that wasn't available in text communications. Well wishes 

[WilyWill]

1 hour ago, MrFlibble_is_very_cross said:

Also SH' GF would like to meet in person, not sure if it's a good idea. 

My wife doesn't know I have them. I want to process this before we talk again. Yesterday I thought we made a progress. And now this. At least I know bigger portion of a truth now. 

Definitely a good idea to keep in contact with the GF. This is good therapy for the two of you to finally regain a sense of control. Meeting in person is all the better, but be wary of getting roped into a revenge affair. Do not tell your wife about any contact with her and insist that GF does not tell her boyfriend. 

Do not reveal to your wife that you have the text messages, of course. Rather, ask her specific questions related to their content to determine if she is ready to be completely honest. 

[gamon]

1 hour ago, TobyBoy said:

Well here’s your chance to get some more truth from your wife. Tell her,  “GF found out the truth and SH confessed everything and even gave up all the texts....so start talking or I’m gone”.

 

I'm really liking this strategy. Obviously she doesn't get a second chance to come clean at a later date which would give her time to confer with the affair partner. She gives her version of the complete truth, now or never and it better match up to what you know or you're gone.

 

 

[aliveagain]

It has been a very long time since I have posted, here are my two cents. After exposure, if a couple want to save their marriage after infidelity, the onus of proof is always on the wayward spouse. It is up to her to prove to your satisfaction that intercourse did not happen and it is up to her to make you feel safe enough to stay married to her. Making out in a car can involve more then just kissing, touching over and under clothing is very common, some people don't consider oral sex. You should both be tested for STD's for several reasons. The first reason is that saliva is a bodily fluid and you can get an STD from the exchange of bodily fluids. Another reason is to drive home the seriousness of her actions, she put you both at risk not just herself. The shame and embarrassment of being tested won't easily be forgotten if a similar opportunity were to arise in the future. Knowing your rights is important and when talking to a lawyer make sure you inquire about a post nuptial agreement. People that don't honor boundaries usually honor a financial consequence. When you agree to reconciliation, a post nuptial agreement goes a long way to make you feel safe. Many will argue that they don't stand up in all Courts but you still have to spend money to find that out and that in itself is a deterrent. Make sure she gets independent counselling, don't waste money on marriage counselling until she gets independent counselling to find out why she gave herself the approval to cheat on you.

[gamon]

1 hour ago, aliveagain said:

. It is up to her to prove to your satisfaction that intercourse did not happen

It's impossible to prove a negative. If she had sex with the guy, it "might" come out from the evidence, or from guilt, or panic, or in a stress induced so-called "parking lot confession" . The truth may never come out but at least there's the possibility.

If there never was sex, there's nothing to admit, there's no truth to disclose and unfortunately there's never a way for the betrayed spouse to know if it ever did happen.

In other words the only way to possibly know for sure your cheating spouse had sex with the other person is if it actually happened.

It's a paradox.

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by gamon

[BMI03]

3 hours ago, MrFlibble_is_very_cross said:

Thanky you for your kind word. It means a lot. Yes, I know my wife loves me - that's why this hurts like bi.ch. The rest was hard to read, but now I think I know the truth. See my update.

Glad you took it that way. I thought it may come across harsh, asking you to sit for 10 minutes to feel what 10 minutes feels like, but for me at least a critical element to getting to forgiveness is knowing exactly what it is you are forgiving. May suck more up front, but at least you have opportunity to feel the pain, and then start moving on. It's lightyears easier than feeling the pain for the partial truth, forgiving, learning more, hurting all over, trying to move on again, etc. etc. That slow erosion of the last remaining grains of trust will break you harder and for longer than the initial event itself.

Saw your update, and as sore is some of it is, I think overall that's full of some things you will come to find positive when compared with the very possible alternatives it could have been. I think keeping quiet on that connection point until you feel your wife has gained your trust that she is being fully honest is a right idea. Like you said, you had asked about him confessing love and were told 'no', so there is still work she needs to do to recognize the severity of her actions NOW. The actions she takes NOW could be more damaging than the actions she took with SH if she's not super careful and transparent.

Good luck to you. Wish you well.

[Timshel]

I'm a woman and I would divorce her.  Proceed at your own peril. 

Also, no need for all the gossip and meetings with peripheral folk.  Your wife was making out with, had his tongue and fingers all over with her wanting more...dude and that's what you 'think'  you know about.

Is 4Paws your wife?

When a woman is ready to let another guy put his d*ck in her, your marriage is over.  It may become polyamorous but monogamy and passion for you have left the building.

File for divorce and be the best co parents you can be; you don't know it yet but both of you and your kids will be a happier, healthier family.

[gamon]

14 minutes ago, Timshel said:

when a woman is ready to let another guy put his d*ck in her, your marriage is over.  I

Did you read the thread? Sounds like other man was ready but wife wasn't ready and pulled the plug on his advances. At least that's how much is known.

 

[MrFlibble_is_very_cross]

3 hours ago, Pottering About said:

Wow, big news. 

Her response to him professing love was avoidance. I would suggest she was uncomfortable with it and did not feel the same. If she was in the affair fog and did love him, then I am sure she would have said so. I would also question his motives for saying he loved her and whether it was genuine.

Can we revisit your lines in the sand - no sex, no I Love You on her part anyway, no plans for a future life. How are feeling about these now? You also have the texts which seem to confirm everything your wife told you.

You say that you thought you made progress yesterday and now this happened. From an outsiders point of view, you have more certainty about your lines in the sand and the texts. Some of the texts do hurt but I hope you come to see today’s revelations as the point at which you can now move forward. As a bonus, SH got his come uppance and you did not have any part in it (result).  You never did get to rock bottom of her having sex.

The BAD NEWS - SH has nothing to lose and may try to pick up again with your wife, at least as a short term backstop. What are you going to do about that? 
 

Glad you are taking your time about any divorce and I wish you all he very best. Please don’t let others’ dark thoughts get in your head.

 

 

 

Yeah, I think he was just pushing it too much. My lines are clear from the beginning - if they had sex or exchanged ILYs I am done. I don't think neither happened. I don't think they are going to try to continue their little affair. Looks like they are absolutely ready to throw the other under a bus. Oh, young love. And I am beeing sarcastic again. Great

 

3 hours ago, colingrant said:

Excellent news all around. The bad news is not as bad as what could have been. You are informed and thus far have reason to believe you know it all. I'd meet with the girlfriend as she is where you were a couple weeks back and need help confirming stuff. Plus, you may find out something else that wasn't available in text communications. Well wishes 

We already made plans to meet at park on Wednesday. 
 

2 hours ago, WilyWill said:

Definitely a good idea to keep in contact with the GF. This is good therapy for the two of you to finally regain a sense of control. Meeting in person is all the better, but be wary of getting roped into a revenge affair. Do not tell your wife about any contact with her and insist that GF does not tell her boyfriend. 

Do not reveal to your wife that you have the text messages, of course. Rather, ask her specific questions related to their content to determine if she is ready to be completely honest. 

There will be no revenge affair, nit with her amd not with anyone else. My anger is mostly gone anyway. Now I am more disappointed than anything.

Why you think I shouln't tell my wife. She knows we spoke. She gave her my number. As for the messages - as I said if they are genuine and not some cleanedmup version - they are in line with what my wife told me except that "I think I am in love with you" part my wife denied. Still not sure how to go about that. 
 

1 hour ago, gamon said:

It's impossible to prove a negative. If she had sex with the guy, it "might" come out from the evidence, or from guilt, or panic, or in a stress induced so-called "parking lot confession" . The truth may never come out but at least there's the possibility.

If there never was sex, there's nothing to admit, there's no truth to disclose and unfortunately there's never a way for the betrayed spouse to know if it ever did happen.

In other words the only way to possibly know for sure your cheating spouse had sex with the other person is if it actually happened.

It's a paradox.

 

Again, they didn't have sex. I thought that even before, but after reading their text I am now 100% positive. And ny "sex" I mean anything more than making out.