Ending it gradually. Perspective from those who can't do NC

[peachpie]

The poor wife. So awful. 
 

imagine you getting caught - the shame and your coworkers looking down on you and the wife could sue you for distress
 

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by matildag

[Wiseman2]

On 11/14/2020 at 11:12 AM, Alexa007 said:

 currently going through an amicable, mutual divorce. 

Are you legally divorced and have you been living on your own for a while?

You'll have a hard time finding decent men if you are in the throes of divorce, no matter how amicable it is 

An office romance like this is more like a band aid. 

Unavailable people choose to be with other unavailable people.

When you have dealt with your divorce, you'll see how unseemly and sordid this is.

Someone will get hurt. Most likely you.

[elaine567]

11 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Unavailable people choose to be with other unavailable people.

I agree and some women do indeed choose MM due to their unavailability, but I think here the OP chose to get into an affair with a man she dreamed would choose her and leave his wife.
She is in love with him. 
As a woman who has dated and who was married, she is used to being no.1, being No.2 and a guilty secret does not really sit well.

[BareBones]

Hi there,

I'm going to respond (see my story on my profile-- I'm OW emotional affair for 19 months now) and try and be respectful. I'm still struggling with the heavy dose of judgment on this site.

 

1) I have developed either a gut feeling or paranoia that he's having sex with his wife.  This stems from him not always wanting to with me (there might be valid reasons due to his age 40's and ptsd) and some occasional missed "goodnight" texts always occurring on the weekend.  How to mitigate the sick feeling I get when I start focusing on it? It might not even be happening.

My MM & me had a very honest discussion about this -- and you should do the same. You have to know this would be the case, given his situation. Read my recent post -- its the approach that I asked about. But I understand the sick feeling of what you are experiencing. But if you want to figure this out, you have to accept the good, bad and ugly. I would completely assume he's having sex with her regardless of what he says unless he doesn't live with her, they are divorced or separated. And because this is a PA or even EA, it sounds crazy, but you need as much honesty as possible because you are already starting on shaking ground, given what this is. Again, no judgment, just trying to state the obvious as I'm in this too. 

2) He's either hot or cold.  When he's a bit standoffish physically, he almost seems to really up the emotional connection between us which ends up being bitter-sweet.  I like that our connection is so strong and he cares about my feelings when he knows I'm feeling rejected but I hate feeling pitied and the yucky feeling with not knowing what kind of day we're going to have from day to day. 

I think a lot at least in my experience) is what's happening at home with the wife. For me, he goes to cold if something has happened and he thinks she's discovered a text message from me or knows he's talking to me (we only text/talk, never have met up)-- because he tends to get very COLD when he believes he's in trouble/found out. Again, if this is something you cannot deal with, it's time to make a decision to walk away or understand this is part of the deal. 

3) I guess my main goal is perspective from fellow OW who've found happiness and contentment knowing it's not a forever AND from MM who might can offer a perspective on how you felt/feel about the OW in a similar situation. 

I don't think any of us have true happiness (or we wouldn't be on this site) at this point. The ONLY way I will have happiness (if I chose to stay in this situation) is when I know he has filed papers. There's no way in HELL I could do this if I knew I didn't have (what we call) "end game"/ending up together in the long run. I already struggle with WHEN we will be together and we've yet to meet in person, given he's still married (and it's been 19 months since we began communicating). And believe me, I get upset when he has to suddenly hang up/stop texting or I don't hear from him for weeks. But again, we made these decisions together with what we could/could not do. 

I've been okay because we check-in and confirm that we still feel the same, what the same end goal, still are attracted to each other. If things change, we both have agreed, we will walk away. And I had the bump in the road last week, where he told me he was having sex and asked if I was okay. It was out of character but I believe it was because we had been having very deep conversations and he felt guilt more than he ever had. He went back to normal a couple days later, but the whole thing was just odd for him. 

And that's the crossroads I'm at. Do I walk away and say -- connect back to me in summer 2021 when the kids are graduated/he's filed? And know that I can have a clean slate and if we are really meant to be we will be? Or does that remove me from his mind and he stays married and/or moves on with someone else? It's all what you can take. The best part about walking away now is I can minimize damage done-- we've only talked, which I know (I'm sure you all will remind me) that its still cheating, but we haven't crossed the line to physical. And I think starting with a clean slate when he's divorced gives us the BEST chance to make it, if we are meant to be. 

Good luck. Keep us updated. 

 

[BareBones]

On 11/15/2020 at 3:57 PM, Alexa007 said:

Former OW, I would love to hear your perspective-changes that helped you get through ending things with the MM when you still had to see him. 

Me again (I'm reading a lot on here) so thought I'd reply. I'm not a former OW, I'm a current, but I can speak from another regular relationship where I had to work with my ex-BF and how I coped. 

This was another time (early 90s) I was in my early 20s and first job out of college. He was a DJ and I worked in sales, he was convinced that he would be fired as he thought he couldn't date at work as he had been fired from another radio station for dating another staff member. Thankfully he worked afternoon/night so I didn't see him a ton, but here's what I did (and things I learned later) as even though it was a "normal" relationship, we had crazy chemistry and it was hard for us to "quit each other."

1. I was new to town, so that made things worse -- but I forced myself to hang out with the people I got to know to keep my mind occupied. I also made a major effort not to go by his area and to leave as soon as I could so I wouldn't see him. I literally would feel sick to my stomach when I saw him as I missed him & it was too much. And I joined the junior chamber of commerce so I could meet more people. 

2. I immediately started looking for another job. Honestly, it was the only way I was able to get over him as it was a whole new world and I didn't have to see him constantly. 

3. While I didn't do this at the time, in retrospect, therapy and (if needed) meds for anxiety would have been a TREMENDOUS help. 

And I would tell him it's really over and delete his numbers, his social media, pictures, emails, etc...as they will only cause pain. And honestly I would see if there was another site that's more supportive of this world and leaving. This site appears to have lots of people telling you what to do, and the consequences of your actions, but not necessarily with a lot of support/help. I know when I have a difficult break-up I go dark, and that's not what you need right now. You need support, encouragement and people who can lift you up, not make you feel worse. 

[Alexa007]

I just ended my 14 mo A with a MM (I was married at the start but am now separated.... Which would have happened regardless).  I finally got the strength and self respect not to be "second" anymore.  

Nobody knows about it.  

We work closely together and I think that's why I've muddled through the A even though I was feeling more and more unhappy.

We still work together (please, please, please trust me that there's no way for this to be changed and tailor your advice to what the situation is.  I wish I could explain further but it would provide too specific of details).  We discussed our friendship/work situation prior to the A.

Last week was actually pleasant.  Our friendship is intact and I haven't been tempted to go back (although my body is aching, but I'm an adult and can manage I guess 😜).

I did not end things as an "ultimatum" and I actually wouldn't want him to leave his wife for me.  If he's going to do it, it needs to be for him and I don't want to be a catalyst. 

I'd love to hear from people who've remained friends with and/or have ex APs where NC is impossible. (I swear it's literally impossible, not just an 'I don't want to').

He *is* laying it on THICK about how much he still loves me, etc, etc but I swear I'm not tempted by it.  As long as he's married, HE'S NOT MINE (and I keep repeating that over and over to myself 😂).

There's something he's doing that's irritating me, though.  It's petty but I can't afford a therapist and I can't talk to any of my friends, obviously, so you strangers are my only option.  

He's been omitting information about his wife.  Example, he left work early "to pick up his child(ren) and check something at a family members house". In actuality, he was getting children and wife 🤷.  What a dummy thing to lie about.  

I've told him that there's no need to try to portray anything other than the truth about his wife.  I'll root him on as a friend if they're restoring things and I'm obviously aware that they'll have family outings, etc.  It's the trying to hide it that irritates me, especially when the wife puts everything on fb 🙄.

Anyway, y'all just talk it out with me, please.  Despite the pain a hole in my heart, I feel a million times better having gathered my self respect and said "no more hidden in the shadows second place for me" 👊🏼

[Cersei]

Of course he is avoiding "her" comments because he's hanging onto hope he can reel you in. Be strong! You can do this. Hang in there, you are headed in the right direction.

[lifeoflies]

I didn’t talk about my wife either. He still has hope that he can use you some more. Since you’re working together and you still “ache” for him (I’m sure he reads this in you), you will need incredible will power. You are in a pretty bad spot. Seriously, he’s not your “friend”. He’s just working on several angles you get you in his bed. If that doesn’t work he will find a new chick that will give him what he wants. 

[trident_2020]

2 hours ago, Alexa007 said:

I've told him that there's no need to try to portray anything other than the truth about his wife.

You don't know what you don't know.

[Alexa007]

17 minutes ago, lifeoflies said:

I didn’t talk about my wife either. He still has hope that he can use you some more. Since you’re working together and you still “ache” for him (I’m sure he reads this in you), you will need incredible will power. You are in a pretty bad spot. Seriously, he’s not your “friend”. He’s just working on several angles you get you in his bed. If that doesn’t work he will find a new chick that will give him what he wants. 

Thank you for the perspective of the MM! I want to pick your brain! 

I need those brutal truths! Our relationship doesn't/didn't hinge on sex, though (my drive is a bit higher than his)  but I'm also not naive.  

Did you pursue your AP if/when she broke things off? 

[LivingWaterPlease]

Alexa, from what I've read on here supposedly the MM almost always tries to keep the OW on the hook for more because that way they don't have to find another one, which can be difficult to do since most women don't want to date married men.

As far as the way he styles his comments about his activities outside of the office (his family activities) I hate to hear it irritates you but there's not a lot you can do about it.  It is what it is so to speak.

From what you've written, you pretty much understand what's going on and that you're going to have to put on your big girl panties, grit your teeth (or however you want to view it) and get through this! You can do it! I believe you've begun to do it and will be successful!

[Alexa007]

4 minutes ago, LivingWaterPlease said:

Alexa, from what I've read on here supposedly the MM almost always tries to keep the OW on the hook for more because that way they don't have to find another one, which can be difficult to do since most women don't want to date married men.

As far as the way he styles his comments about his activities outside of the office (his family activities) I hate to hear it irritates you but there's not a lot you can do about it.  It is what it is so to speak.

From what you've written, you pretty much understand what's going on and that you're going to have to put on your big girl panties, grit your teeth (or however you want to view it) and get through this! You can do it! I believe you've begun to do it and will be successful!

Thank you! I definitely "get it" but just need to talk it out somewhere safe (anonymous).

[LivingWaterPlease]

1 hour ago, Alexa007 said:

Thank you! I definitely "get it" but just need to talk it out somewhere safe (anonymous).

Good for you, Alexa! Vent, talk it out, process it! This is a place to do it! You're getting through this!

[denwickdroylsden]

MM here. Oh, in my A's with MW it seemed customary and expected that discussion of spouses was off limits. Just not done, you know? Calls home (to dispense lies and alibis) were done not in AP's presence. I think all this was part of the pretense that the A was in fact A Thing and not just a tawdry rinse-and-repeat roll in the hay.

[SS2855]

I can very much relate here. MM and I officially broke it off about 6 weeks ago after a 2 year relationship. I believe the love was very much there, and may still be, but we realized there was nowhere to go (he was not leaving his marriage and like you I didn’t want him to, at least for me). We knew it was time to be adults and shoot for trying to be better people. We also work very closely together, and again like you, without giving details it isn’t possible at this time for a different job. We have moved in to a new phase of friendship. I know most will say it’s impossible to remain friends, and I agree it is not easy. But I’ve found that while I still miss him and still pine for him sometimes, I feel better as a whole knowing a decision was made and I no longer live in anxiety of waiting for messages, a song that reminded him of me, plans for lunch, dinner etc. I still struggle but I don’t hold ill will for him, nor do I feel he is deviously trying to reel me back in when he does reach out, at least not consciously. We had both made the decision to have the kind of relationship that we did, knowing leaving our respective lives to be together would likely not be worth the pain done to so many (yes I know we were still inflicting pain even for those that didn’t know). So to answer your question, the friendship is there and I value it. I do feel though that often it’s the MM that does try to hold on still, and I guess maybe the AP does too. For now we’re doing ok- but we also haven’t seen each other in a long time so I’m sure makes it easier. One day at a time.

[Alexa007]

10 hours ago, SS2855 said:

I can very much relate here. MM and I officially broke it off about 6 weeks ago after a 2 year relationship. I believe the love was very much there, and may still be, but we realized there was nowhere to go (he was not leaving his marriage and like you I didn’t want him to, at least for me). We knew it was time to be adults and shoot for trying to be better people. We also work very closely together, and again like you, without giving details it isn’t possible at this time for a different job. We have moved in to a new phase of friendship. I know most will say it’s impossible to remain friends, and I agree it is not easy. But I’ve found that while I still miss him and still pine for him sometimes, I feel better as a whole knowing a decision was made and I no longer live in anxiety of waiting for messages, a song that reminded him of me, plans for lunch, dinner etc. I still struggle but I don’t hold ill will for him, nor do I feel he is deviously trying to reel me back in when he does reach out, at least not consciously. We had both made the decision to have the kind of relationship that we did, knowing leaving our respective lives to be together would likely not be worth the pain done to so many (yes I know we were still inflicting pain even for those that didn’t know). So to answer your question, the friendship is there and I value it. I do feel though that often it’s the MM that does try to hold on still, and I guess maybe the AP does too. For now we’re doing ok- but we also haven’t seen each other in a long time so I’m sure makes it easier. One day at a time.

Thank you for this ❤️❤️❤️. I know it's not ideal to still work together but I also think we're adult enough to backtrack to a friendship even though it's hard as hell sometimes.  No matter how hard it is and how bad I miss him sometimes, the feeling of relief that I'm not the OW anymore keeps me strong.  

He still talks about a future with me but makes no moves to leave, and that's fine since I've already come to terms with letting him go.  Honestly, as hypocritical as it sounds, even if he did leave I'm worried I'd be untrusting and concerned about infidelity.  I don't want a relationship like that.  

He's been texting me like crazy and I've got to stop playing along because I'm likely sending mixed signals.  I just broke it off a couple of days ago so we're still muddling through regressing to a friendship.  Like I said (and I'm so glad someone understands), there's no way for us to go NC so we've got to figure out our own, new normal.  Obviously, he wants to return to his things were but I refuse since I'm the big loser in the scenario.  

I'm just rambling.  I've decided not to confide in anyone (it seems like I would be betraying him by doing so, especially since we live in a small town) so there's literally no one to talk to.  My friends would be appalled at me (rightfully so) anyway.  

[Alexa007]

You can look at my other recent post in here but, long story short, I ended things with MM last week.  We were close friends prior to the A and, since we have to work together (I promise there's not a way around that), we've remained friends.  I realize the terrible spot we put each other in but the feelings are (were) deep and real, and went beyond just sex.  We are both good people who fell into a bad choice and I acknowledge that.

As expected, MM is pursuing me pretty hard but being respectful and the same time.  I am solid in my resolve to never be the OW again.  That being said, his texts and interactions have been as if we're still "together". He even said he can't wait to "kiss me silly" on Monday 🤔.  I obviously need to make things clearer and set some boundaries when I see him Monday.  

I know there's some questions and statements he's going to have and I just really need help with how to respond. 

1) We were both married when the A started (I've since gotten separated- a move done for myself that had nothing to do with MM).  How do I articulate that, even though I was once okay with the set up, I'm not anymore? 

2) He says it's hard on him too since he hates being at home, that he *has* chosen me and I have his entire heart.  I need him to understand that I am NOT "chosen" while he's still with his wife- regardless of what he says he feels.

3). Basically, he's saying that it's unfair that I'm suddenly not okay with the situation.  I have never pushed him to leave BS, nor will I but the OW role has always felt sad and lonely, but the highs were enough of a drug to keep me strung along.

4) I just need to articulate how/why we'll still be together must days like always but the physical part of our "relationship" must cease.  I've always been the physical aggressor and our A was way more than sex but we definitely are both fighting the urge to touch one another.

I guess, in order to ensure my strength to do this, I want to go into tomorrow with a plan and some verbiage.  It would be different if this were the last time we'd be seeing each other but our lives are forever intertwined.  

Thank you guys in advance!!!!

Edited January 3, 2021 by Alexa007
Errors

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Alexa, why are you trying to be friends with this man? Can't you be coworkers rather than friends? The friendship you had before the affair is forever changed and will never be what it once was. 

I think you are doing some sort of mental bargaining where you want to keep all that's good and holy about your interaction with this man while trying to whitewash the "sins" you committed together. It can't be done...especially while you are forced to interact with each other at work.

Also I think your attempt at reframing your relationship is to give you a sense of control over it, and possibly to gain the upper hand. 

Your motives might not even be conscious. You really should examine what exactly you're trying to hold onto here and acknowledge that days of just friends are long past.

Perhaps with time and distance between you, you could both choose to forge a new friendship. But that will definitely not happen under the present circumstances. He is not going to understand why you are now enforcing a change he doesn't want. Instead he'll fight to keep the status quo (NSA and fantasy fun even if 'feelings' are involved).

Neither of you owe the other anything, not so much as an explanation, because neither of you are committed to the other. Saying you have his 'whole heart' is a shabby chic way of trying to keep the stays quo. He's comfortable not doing the hard work on his marriage, or the hard work to leave it this far. You've been his enabler. You'll continue to be until you see clearly that there will never be any friendship again under these circumstances.

I considered answering your questions point by point, but I feel the above perspective will yield you greater results in the long term. I'd still consider answering your questions, but first I'd like you make an honest assessment for yourself about what you are actually doing/hoping for and why.

[ExpatInItaly]

1 hour ago, Alexa007 said:

2) He says it's hard on him too since he hates being at home, that he *has* chosen me and I have his entire heart.  I need him to understand that I am NOT "chosen" while he's still with his wife- regardless of what he says he feels.

On this point, he understands. He knows it BS. 

He just hopes you'll believe his BS so you'll continue to be his OW. There's no need to make him understand anything, beyond that you don't see things his way, and case closed.

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, Alexa007 said:

 we have to work together

Yes that will make things difficult to untangle.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

I just reread your post and had another thought.

Are you taking a step back in the affair, taking away his candy (so to speak), hoping it will inspire him to leave his marriage and pursue you? If so, let me tell you right now that's going to end really badly for you.

When I was OW, I did all the mental gymnastics. End result? Abundance of pain. That's your outcome sorry to say. Face it now or postpone it to later, but ultimately that's your end to this. If he wanted to leave his marriage, he would have already, or at least taken steps in that direction.

OW can't manipulate or cajole a man out of his marriage. Usually from the stories I've read here over the years, men rarely leave. When they do, it is because they are choosing to leave the marriage completely independent of an OW involvement. 

Thinking this will be the medicine to get him to "break free" of his marriage is thinking like a woman. Men do not view things the way we do. They are focused on security and status much more than romantic ideals. Don't deceive yourself thinking your vajayjay will do the trick. Sorry if that sounds crass, but it's truthful.

Edited January 3, 2021 by HadMeOverABarrel
Added paragraph

[Allupinnit]

It's only a matter of time before you are back in the A, honestly.  You don't sound at all like you have any sort of resolve to resist him, and making him "understand" is futile - he doesn't care about your feelings or what this A has done to you emotionally.  He wants things to go back to the way they were, deep down you want him to leave his wife.

I mentioned in your first thread that the only way you're going to move past this is to get another job.  You say that's impossible, but why?  Is someone holding a gun to your head keeping you there?  People leave jobs all the time.  I also warned you the consequences you will face if you keep working so closely with him.  You said you work in an environment that allows for lots of intimacy, has that changed?

Girl, you are toast if you don't walk away from all of this.  You're dragging 2020 into 2021 now.  Wouldn't it be nice if you could think about a Monday morning without all of this emotional turmoil, talking yourself into knots wondering how you're going to handle the man you're in love with?  That sounds like straight up torture to me.

[Alexa007]

27 minutes ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

I just reread your post and had another thought.

Are you taking a step back in the affair, taking away his candy (so to speak), hoping it will inspire him to leave his marriage and pursue you? If so, let me tell you right now that's going to end really badly for you.

When I was OW, I did all the mental gymnastics. End result? Abundance of pain. That's your outcome sorry to say. Face it now or postpone it to later, but ultimately that's your end to this. If he wanted to leave his marriage, he would have already, or at least taken steps in that direction.

OW can't manipulate or cajole a man out of his marriage. Usually from the stories I've read here over the years, men rarely leave. When they do, it is because they are choosing to leave the marriage completely independent of an OW involvement. 

Thinking this will be the medicine to get him to "break free" of his marriage is thinking like a woman. Men do not view things the way we do. They are focused on security and status much more than romantic ideals. Don't deceive yourself thinking your vajayjay will do the trick. Sorry if that sounds crass, but it's truthful.

No, no, no- not at all.  I don't want him to leave *for me*. It needs to be something he does for himself and, even then, I'm not sure the trust would ever be there enough for me to enter into a relationship with him (as hypocritical was that sounds considering I'm equally to blame).  I've never asked or encouraged him to leave his wife.  It's part of the reason I almost feel guilty for suddenly changing our dynamics, even though I know I'm doing the right thing 

I *am* taking a moment to mull over your other response.  It's definitely making me examine myself!

[Alexa007]

13 minutes ago, Allupinnit said:

It's only a matter of time before you are back in the A, honestly.  You don't sound at all like you have any sort of resolve to resist him, and making him "understand" is futile - he doesn't care about your feelings or what this A has done to you emotionally.  He wants things to go back to the way they were, deep down you want him to leave his wife.

I mentioned in your first thread that the only way you're going to move past this is to get another job.  You say that's impossible, but why?  Is someone holding a gun to your head keeping you there?  People leave jobs all the time.  I also warned you the consequences you will face if you keep working so closely with him.  You said you work in an environment that allows for lots of intimacy, has that changed?

Girl, you are toast if you don't walk away from all of this.  You're dragging 2020 into 2021 now.  Wouldn't it be nice if you could think about a Monday morning without all of this emotional turmoil, talking yourself into knots wondering how you're going to handle the man you're in love with?  That sounds like straight up torture to me.

It's a family business I've built from the ground up.  There's more to it but it's not a traditional job that can just be quit/replaced.  

That's why I'm asking for support for the situation as it is, even though I know it's not ideal.  Even without work, our lives are entertwined in other ways that cannot be changed. 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Alexa007
Typo

[Alexa007]

1 hour ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

Alexa, why are you trying to be friends with this man? Can't you be coworkers rather than friends? The friendship you had before the affair is forever changed and will never be what it once was. 

I think you are doing some sort of mental bargaining where you want to keep all that's good and holy about your interaction with this man while trying to whitewash the "sins" you committed together. It can't be done...especially while you are forced to interact with each other at work.

Also I think your attempt at reframing your relationship is to give you a sense of control over it, and possibly to gain the upper hand. 

Your motives might not even be conscious. You really should examine what exactly you're trying to hold onto here and acknowledge that days of just friends are long past.

Perhaps with time and distance between you, you could both choose to forge a new friendship. But that will definitely not happen under the present circumstances. He is not going to understand why you are now enforcing a change he doesn't want. Instead he'll fight to keep the status quo (NSA and fantasy fun even if 'feelings' are involved).

Neither of you owe the other anything, not so much as an explanation, because neither of you are committed to the other. Saying you have his 'whole heart' is a shabby chic way of trying to keep the stays quo. He's comfortable not doing the hard work on his marriage, or the hard work to leave it this far. You've been his enabler. You'll continue to be until you see clearly that there will never be any friendship again under these circumstances.

I considered answering your questions point by point, but I feel the above perspective will yield you greater results in the long term. I'd still consider answering your questions, but first I'd like you make an honest assessment for yourself about what you are actually doing/hoping for and why.

HadMe, so much insight! I'd love to know more where your perspective comes from (former OW or BS?).  

I explained a bit above but we are not able to be separate at work. We are often in remote locations, just the two of us. 

I think you might be on to something about subconsciously wanting the upper-hand or some control.  Spending a year as the OW has damaged me in ways I didn't think possible but all the "highs" kept me straggling along.  It feels wonderful to finally say "no more" but it's obviously not a clean break.  This is my second time ending things and I'm far more resolved this time.  

None of this is ideal.