Married men reveal

[Whaatamidoing]

12 hours ago, SMoore said:

Strange thing is, as the affair developed I became a much happier person due to my new found adventure, and I took that happiness home.  As time went on my wife responded positively too and our relationship actually improved.  Nothing major, but there was a subtle change.  Just more positive interactions.  I never anticipated that.

Your behaviour doesn't sound dreadful, it sounds like the normal honest account I have been looking for. Its not ideal but as everyone rightly points out, it does take two to tango. The above quote, I really believe is why I am where I am 7 years down the line, in the beginning I liked my independence so it didn't matter but as time went on, i wanted the relationship to develop, of course it never could and hasn't. What I do see though, is the husband and wife relationship improve as a result of me making him happy. That's a very bitter pill to swallow.

He is very in my face with his relationship, she calls him many times a day and I can hear the conversations, what they have planned for the weekends and what they will be having for tea. I think his relationship wasn't that great when we first met and he used the threat of me, leaving his phone lying around so she would see certain texts to allow her to become more attentive towards him. I have known him for a number of years prior to this and they lead very separate lives, it wasn't until she discovered our friendship that she stepped it up with him. Sounds like he is playing us off against each other to ensure we both remain interested now I write it down. Scary.

[elaine567]

18 minutes ago, Whaatamidoing said:

We were talking about things and back when I first met him we would talk openly about being together, he moved house to a massive mortgage forever home with his wife and those conversations stopped. We would talk about going on holiday and country walks together, normal 'coupley' things to do, nothing spectacular. When we talked recently he denied any knowledge of saying he would like to do anything of the sort with me and this was it basically, even if we were together we wouldn't do anything like that, he doesn't like doing that sort of thing and wouldn't.

That is because when he was discussing that stuff with you he was lying.
His real thoughts were elsewhere.
He remembers his real thoughts as they probably are still the same, but he has forgotten the lies he told you.
He is probably not proud of those lies, so as time has gone on he has deleted them from his memory.
It just didn't happen...
Whereas those lies were so important to you, they showed you he was thinking of a future with you, so you held onto them as proof he cared.

[lifeoflies]

11 minutes ago, Whaatamidoing said:

@lifeofliesThank you for your honesty. I hadn't really realised the ability to compartmentalise. What was is that attracted you to the affair? Was it simply that you could? Or did you really see something in your AP that made you want to go beyond friendship? I am thinking that men choose their AP's carefully, there are some women that even I know as a woman would not be the person to have an affair with. I am trying to figure out in myself why have I been ok to be treated like that, why am I not wife material for him. 
 

I was 48 and she was 23  met her at a temporary job.  I wasn’t looking  she flirted and came on to me.  She’d bring me food  she paid attention to me  one night I followed her.  She saw me behind her and pulled into an apartment complex I first kissed her and I was like in something like love?  
 

despite the common condemnation of the OWs, I think they are mostly nice women who made the mistake of loving a MM.

I felt great with her.  Alive  

I didn’t see it coming..  an adorable petite girl from Eastern Europe.  I loved meeting her for a walk hand in hand.

It wasn’t worth all the pain I caused  

 

11 minutes ago, Whaatamidoing said:

I know that his wife has seen texts from me on his phone, nothing sordid but enough to ask about me, he threw me under the bus then. He told me he told her that I have been encouraging him to text and socialise outside of work. He has throughout our time always suggested that he is the innocent party and I pursued but I remember a different version of events in the beginning and unlike him I don't have to delete everything. It does make you think you are slightly unhinged though, he would have me believe that I have made the whole thing up and he would probably not even admit to knowing me in front of his wife. 

It was just a small comment from him that made me realise I need out of this. We were talking about things and back when I first met him we would talk openly about being together, he moved house to a massive mortgage forever home with his wife and those conversations stopped. We would talk about going on holiday and country walks together, normal 'coupley' things to do, nothing spectacular. When we talked recently he denied any knowledge of saying he would like to do anything of the sort with me and this was it basically, even if we were together we wouldn't do anything like that, he doesn't like doing that sort of thing and wouldn't. I don't know where this came from but it made me realise he has probably changed far beyond anyone I would actually want to be with so why am I still here. I have been mulling it over ever since. 

 

 

[Whaatamidoing]

Which leads me on to wonder why the affair limerence doesn't appear in traditional relationships. I have had relationships before but there was never that wanting, does it purely exist on the adrenalin of the other person not being available.

I hope not, for my future.

 

 

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, Whaatamidoing said:

Which leads me on to wonder why the affair limerence doesn't appear in traditional relationships.

Most people have a sort of infatuation high when a relationship begins that mellows into a contented state.

Affairs offer neither. It's more like those rats in a laboratory or people in Vegas compulsively pulling the lever for hopes of the reward.

[elaine567]

18 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

It's more like those rats in a laboratory or people in Vegas compulsively pulling the lever for hopes of the reward.

Yes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_lakRMIA7Q&vl=en - Why You Can't Leave The Relationship (Intermittent Reinforcement) - Teal Swan

 

[notbroken]

What difference does it make?  Don't you want to be first in someone's life?  Don't you want to be able to be honest and not hide your relationship?   On holidays do you want to be with 'your one and only'?   You can't do these things as the OW.   By definition the guy is a liar and a cheat.   Period.   Dump him.   Find someone you can be honest and 'out to the world' with. 

[mark clemson]

A few thoughts for you -

5 hours ago, Whaatamidoing said:

I am trying to figure out in myself why have I been ok to be treated like that, why am I not wife material for him.

It may not actually be that you're not wife material. Just that he already has a wife and also now that he's been married, he doesn't want to be again (ie, with anyone) so he will just let inertia take it's course and stay put. Your affair has probably been making it easier for him to do just that. Possibly he had more genuine thoughts of leaving at the beginning of the affair and that's changed over time.

 

5 hours ago, Whaatamidoing said:

 back when I first met him we would talk openly about being together, he moved house to a massive mortgage forever home with his wife and those conversations stopped. We would talk about going on holiday and country walks together, normal 'coupley' things to do, nothing spectacular. When we talked recently he denied any knowledge of saying he would like to do anything of the sort with me and this was it basically, even if we were together we wouldn't do anything like that

I will echo Elaine that it's (quite) possible he was lying. It's also possible he had a strong desire to leave the marriage and/or be with you at the time but time and/or the financial situation has tempered it. It may also have been more along the lines of "pipe dreams".

This is fairly common and has the name "future faking" in internet forum circles. Whether or not he was sincere in his initial discussions, it's clear where he stands now, 7 years later.

 

3 hours ago, Whaatamidoing said:

Which leads me on to wonder why the affair limerence doesn't appear in traditional relationships.

Very strong limerence is associated with relationships that are dysfunctional in some way - affairs, forced apartness due to circumstances, you like them but they like someone else, unrequited love, etc, etc. Apparently once you actually get the person, that form of intense, heightened longing reduces. So sometimes in some "traditional" relationships.

Some people, I think, make the mistake of comparing normal, healthy relationships to their (few) limerence experiences and mistakenly concluding that the normal relationship "isn't all that". However, that not a good comparison, because apparently normal healthy relationships where you have access to your partner just don't cause limerence.

Edited November 19, 2020 by mark clemson

[Whaatamidoing]

55 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Yes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_lakRMIA7Q&vl=en - Why You Can't Leave The Relationship (Intermittent Reinforcement) - Teal Swan

 

This is extremely interesting and reflective of where most affairs seem to go. 

[ajequals]

I think when a man starts an affair there is a reason . I don't feel it's so cold as some say the the OW  is just there for fun.  Men get just as attached if not more than women do ,there are many threads on here showing that. As time passes. men do fall in love with the OW. the scale does tip towards her as time goes by ..As far as sex I have seen on here many times ,married women set this part on the marriage on a shelf. they are tired ,stressed, not in the mood. women have total control of sex so if he's having sex with his wife it's her choice. 

[stillafool]

Yeah and I've also seem married men who were getting plenty of sex at home but still have affairs because they want variety.

22 minutes ago, ajequals said:

As far as sex I have seen on here many times ,married women set this part on the marriage on a shelf. they are tired ,stressed, not in the mood. women have total control of sex so if he's having sex with his wife it's her choice. 

 

[SMoore]

23 hours ago, Beca L said:

I'm not surprised. She did the honourable thing and realised that if she had strong feelings for another then she could no longer live a lie with her H and she left to pursue (what she thought) was a future with you, However, you were not on the same page and you apparently were happy just having her and your wife. You did deceive her. 

 

I'm sorry but what did you think was going to happen ? She'd left her husband, did you think she'd happily carry on being the OW whilst you remained married. That type of relationship was not sustainable, she was always going to want more, not sure how you didn't realise that would happen. 

Just for the record, she did not leave her husband for me.  It was on the cards for years and I guess we had some kind of bridging affair that helped her get through the difficult times and boost her confidence.  She used me really, and it only dawned on me gradually.  She had many good qualities, but being honourable wasn’t one of them.

 Well the plan was for me to leave too, and us to be together, but there were so many caveats from her and conditions from me that ultimately, yes, it was all make believe and totally unsustainable.  She left her marriage because it was broken and she wanted a new life, which she now has.  Anyway, I’ve posted about it elsewhere so I’ll stop hijacking this thread.

[SMoore]

7 hours ago, mark clemson said:

A few thoughts for you -

It may not actually be that you're not wife material. Just that he already has a wife and also now that he's been married, he doesn't want to be again (ie, with anyone) so he will just let inertia take it's course and stay put. Your affair has probably been making it easier for him to do just that. Possibly he had more genuine thoughts of leaving at the beginning of the affair and that's changed over time.

 

I will echo Elaine that it's (quite) possible he was lying. It's also possible he had a strong desire to leave the marriage and/or be with you at the time but time and/or the financial situation has tempered it. It may also have been more along the lines of "pipe dreams".

This is fairly common and has the name "future faking" in internet forum circles. Whether or not he was sincere in his initial discussions, it's clear where he stands now, 7 years later.

 

Very strong limerence is associated with relationships that are dysfunctional in some way - affairs, forced apartness due to circumstances, you like them but they like someone else, unrequited love, etc, etc. Apparently once you actually get the person, that form of intense, heightened longing reduces. So sometimes in some "traditional" relationships.

Some people, I think, make the mistake of comparing normal, healthy relationships to their (few) limerence experiences and mistakenly concluding that the normal relationship "isn't all that". However, that not a good comparison, because apparently normal healthy relationships where you have access to your partner just don't cause limerence.

Yes!  Limerence comes out of dysfunction, definitely.  It manifests from some kind of lack, or perceived lack, and it’s this that needs attention and not the limerent object.  What’s crazy is that it feels so amazing, you believe that it’s the complete opposite of dysfunction, that it’s pure and right and perfect.  That’s the whole bastard trap in a nutshell.

Wish someone had explained it to me when I was younger...

[Milly May June]

Why are you overanalyzing his intentions and actions? He has shown you who he really is. A man who has no issue laying to his wife and to you for 7 years. This is all about him and his ego boosting. Believe him. This is who he is. Consider all his says as verbal diharrea and pay attention to how he treats people close to him. 

The real question is why do you want this man? Why waste 7 years on a secret relationship that is not sustainabld or healthy? Why waste more precious years of your life on a man that does not want you 100%? Who does not value you 100% or belives in a future with you 100%?

And if you get him in the end, would you want him? 

[elaine567]

It is a bit like playing the lottery with the same numbers every week, and then finding you cannot stop as this may be the very week your numbers come up and you win a fortune.

Whaatamidoing has played the MM lottery for years.
Aware she is now in massive debt, she doesn't want to stop as the big jackpot is still in play.

[Milly May June]

And just to add, what would be a realistic outcome if he ends up divorced and starts an open relationship with you? 

Divorce can take years and its a emotional and stressful process that can and often does get nasty. This will be your reality. And God help you (and hin) if the family find out about the 7 year long deciet. Add to the mix kids who most likely will resent both you and their dad for braking up the family. Resentful extended family. Resentful friends. Could your relationship survive the pressure? 

OP my question to you is why do you settle for bread crums when you can have the bakery? There is no happy ending in this story. If this man really loves you then he would commit. It has been 7 years and he has not. End this and find the bakery! There are great SINGLE men out there. 

 

[Wiseman2]

There's a 3 fold chance a cheater will cheat again. Some affairs may be a one time deal, but cheaters have something in thier personality and since they have already crossed that line, it's likely to happen again.

[Whaatamidoing]

@Milly May June You are completely right, that's why I am here to feel that I am not alone in wondering about where I actually am. Its been wonderful at times and hard at times but I can feel that my head is beginning to rule over my heart. I think the outcome is not as I once thought it would be, he and I against the world. It absolutely wouldn't be like that. The kids wouldn't understand, my reputation would be in tatters, our business would suffer. I am slowly understanding the reality. 

@elaine567 You are absolutely correct in your lottery analysis. I think that if I let it go and move on, his marriage would continue but not for long. He would then divorce and find someone else. Too late for me as I would have moved on. He wont end up with his wife and I think a lot of why I continue is because I couldn't bear to be the facilitator to his ultimate happiness with someone else. I know its my reality but its a very difficult thing to deal with. 

[mark clemson]

4 hours ago, Whaatamidoing said:

I know its my reality but its a very difficult thing to deal with. 

If "sunken costs fallacy" is the reality of your relationship, then you probably need to sit down and take a long, hard, unflinching look at that and what it would mean for the future. I.e. that it's more of the same...

 

4 hours ago, Whaatamidoing said:

if I let it go and move on ...  I think a lot of why I continue is because I couldn't bear to be the facilitator to his ultimate happiness with someone else.

THIS doesn't, to me, seem like a good reason to give up having a "real", full relationship.

Consider some therapy to explore why you've tolerated this for so long. Possibly insecurity/fear of being alone is part of what drives you as well? (I could certainly be wrong about that, just a thought.)

In addition to Elaine's great insight, I think MMJ is probably right about how the family isn't likely to accept you. "Someone who hurt my mom can't be a very good person." And they're likely to blame you more than the Dad, since he's their Dad. Just human nature - you will be the "cause" of this, not him. That's not guaranteed, but I think it's substantially more likely and makes it very easy for the Mom to poison the kids against you, which she is at least reasonably likely to do.

So the family acceptance issue is another thing to factor into any reality check on all this. Not a happy situation.

Edited November 20, 2020 by mark clemson

[Prudence V]

14 hours ago, mark clemson said:

So the family acceptance issue is another thing to factor into any reality check on all this.

This is pretty important as to whether a EMR survives and flourishes post-D or not, IMV. The kind of “us against the world” thing might increase intensity and passion pre-D, but once it’s a FTR you really can’t sustain that level of drama indefinitely. I’m convinced one of the major reasons things worked out so well for us was that we had such strong support from everyone - my H’s family, his friends,   colleagues, etc - and everyone overwhelmingly felt he’d done the right thing in dumping the BW. If we’d had to justify our R to the people who mattered to my H all the time, and if the kids (his and mine) had been less welcoming, it would have been a struggle. 

[Milly May June]

23 hours ago, Whaatamidoing said:

He wont end up with his wife and I think a lot of why I continue is because I couldn't bear to be the facilitator to his ultimate happiness with someone else. I know its my reality but its a very difficult thing to deal with. 

OP, this is not a competition. I understand that you invested much in this arrangement but you dont have ANYTHING to show for it. You are a secret in his real life. Why settle for that? You didnt write how old you are and if you have or want kids. If you want kids and time is ticking this guy is not the best candidate (i.e. You are wasting time).

Another very probable option to consider is that he wants YOU to DUMP HIM. Why? If you get bored and break it off the chances are you wont tell his wife. He is waiting you out. Or he might have another woman on the hook too. Would not put that pass him. 

Your fear of him finding the happily ever after with someone else. Listen, this guy is no dreamguy. He will lie and cheat on whomever he ends up with. Be it his wife, you or some other woman. Its in his character. Lying and betraying his family for 7 years indicates major character flaws. 

[elaine567]

deleted

Edited November 21, 2020 by elaine567

[elaine567]

On 11/20/2020 at 1:12 PM, Whaatamidoing said:

I think that if I let it go and move on, his marriage would continue but not for long. He would then divorce and find someone else. Too late for me as I would have moved on. He wont end up with his wife and I think a lot of why I continue is because I couldn't bear to be the facilitator to his ultimate happiness with someone else.

it is irrelevant whether you are the "facilitator" or not, because what does matter hasn't happened nor is happening. 
He is not choosing you for something deep and meaningful, he never has and never will, not after 7 years...
You are the OW, the person who props up his marriage.
Even if he left his wife tomorrow he may still not choose you, that is the problem you may have to face.
We had an OW on here whose MM left his wife, but proceeded to eventually get engaged to another woman, when she asked him why he did not choose her, he said his new wife would never accept him cheating but his OW was well aware of his foibles, so he decided to marry the one that was in the dark and keep the OW on side... 

[pepperbird2]

OP,

if you want to know who your MM is and how he views the world. look at his behaviour, not just towards you but to his wife as well.
Take yourself out of the equation and pretend his wife was your friend/sister. How would you feel about how he's treating her? Your answer will tell you who he is. I'm not saying he would definitely cheat on you as well if you were to get into a full time, one on one relationship with him, but given his behaviour so far, what's your opinion?

[central]

1 minute ago, pepperbird2 said:

OP,

if you want to know who your MM is and how he views the world. look at his behaviour, not just towards you but to his wife as well.
Take yourself out of the equation and pretend his wife was your friend/sister. How would you feel about how he's treating her? Your answer will tell you who he is. I'm not saying he would definitely cheat on you as well if you were to get into a full time, one on one relationship with him, but given his behaviour so far, what's your opinion?

This is good advice, however, I would add that if you look at how he treats his wife, also look at how she treats him and how that can reasonably influence his attitude to her.