Alternative relationships

[mark clemson]

Apparently this isn't about sugar babies. I would note that IF that sort of thing is legal in your area that might be a way to have some fun with no strings attached. Just use caution + don't become emotionally attached. If that sort of thing isn't for you, or isn't legal in your area, then disregard...

[Foxhall]

Have you had many dates with women who are quiet introverted and non party types?

most of your date seem to be with more outgoing personality types which does not appear to be working for you, well you may fancy these women but they are not feeling the love in return ,

I know it might seem a dull date with a girl who is the opposite of charismatic and bubbly, but if she is still pretty and you can work at putting her at ease, then the two of you might bond in time.

speaking of going on holidays alone,  some nice ladies introverted  but at the same time social types like to do this also , quiet time reading and so on, if you happened to be in right place at right time.

[ZA Dater]

13 hours ago, Foxhall said:

Have you had many dates with women who are quiet introverted and non party types?

most of your date seem to be with more outgoing personality types which does not appear to be working for you, well you may fancy these women but they are not feeling the love in return ,

I know it might seem a dull date with a girl who is the opposite of charismatic and bubbly, but if she is still pretty and you can work at putting her at ease, then the two of you might bond in time.

speaking of going on holidays alone,  some nice ladies introverted  but at the same time social types like to do this also , quiet time reading and so on, if you happened to be in right place at right time.

I will get heavily criticized for this but why must I do this when I have never been on the receiving end of it?  I have had dates with a variety of people and even when I try this more quiet type they too have endless options so in terms of what you suggest the person would need to have no options to even consider such an idea.

The point I am making here is maybe I just need a use/use relationship, she gets what she wants from me and I get to have company when I want company. There is no connection at all, just a transactional relationship. I was not always like this but dating made me so, when I realized that your success at it has zero to do with your qualities as a person, my friend has ladies falling at his feet, he sleeps around, flirts around and yet they keep falling over him. He is highly successful, fun and fit so I guess that is all most ladies seem to want.

Sure this is sour grapes and it is but if the only way I can even the playing field and find the sort of experience I remotely I want I guess I will have to turn the entire thing into a transaction. I did this some years ago with a stunning art student, stunning to look at, well spoken, super knowledgeable, great to chat with, down to earth and she actually did take an interest in me, had quite a few coffee and dinner dates . Guess what she was shy too but had confidence. 

Then I go back to dating apps and then need to put up with the same old issues, a near total lack of attraction on any level. I simply cannot escape the thought in the back of my mind that ladies just use OLD like a shopping list, "oh he looks good lets see him on Monday, well if he is'nt good I have B to see on Wednesday" so they simply invest nothing, offer nothing because they just expect men to fall at their feet and grovel.

It must be very nice to have any degree of options. I too have an option, I can walk around and not give a f.

[Foxhall]

cash for company- that could be a nice little money spinner for some of these good looking chicks,

Yeah its not easy hard find someone too where it clicks both ways,

easy for some as you mention but not for the rest of us,

your doing the best you can I suppose, at least your not hiding from the world anyway- your still getting out there and going to social functions and going on dates,

fate to throw one your way does'nt seem a lot to ask for.

Personally I find women who prefer walking by the sea or reading in a library, they will suit me better than a woman who likes to go drinking and partying,

You I imagine will be similar. seek out these women by joining the right groups- lol I think you didnt like before when someone suggested you join a hiking club, but going for a suitable demographic, narrow the playing field as it were, would seem worth a shot.

[SumGuy]

20 hours ago, Foxhall said:

cash for company- that could be a nice little money spinner for some of these good looking chicks,

...

Good summary.    Should be easy to find.  Just go on a sugar daddy site and say you want to be that but just want platonic company and no exclusivity.   Suspect you will get a lot of takers, and you can be choosy about those who are good company.

[elaine567]

On 12/1/2020 at 2:30 PM, ZA Dater said:

my friend has ladies falling at his feet, he sleeps around, flirts around and yet they keep falling over him. He is highly successful, fun and fit so I guess that is all most ladies seem to want.

"Most" ladies would tell your older flirty friend to get lost.
You are mixing in weird circles and then making assumptions about ALL women...

[Weezy1973]

On 12/1/2020 at 6:30 AM, ZA Dater said:

. I too have an option, I can walk around and not give a f.

If only you could. But here you are again with a thread going over the same problem. You’re on the treadmill, going nowhere fast. If you want things to actually change, you need to change your thinking.

[ZA Dater]

On 12/2/2020 at 7:53 PM, elaine567 said:

"Most" ladies would tell your older flirty friend to get lost.
You are mixing in weird circles and then making assumptions about ALL women...

I would agree with you if it were true but it simply is not. How much of the time he has to pretend to be someone he is not to get these ladies, that is another question but what is undoubtedly true is he simply does not struggle to get attention. Throw me into this mix and its nothing but a complete disaster, he has spent years trying to "help" me, set me up with the less attractive people he does not like but there is just zero compatibility and zero interest from them.

In life I am always happy to be proven wrong but frankly I never have been when it comes to dating. I cannot win when the choice is he or I, no matter what good qualities I might have. Go out to any bar or club and the result is always the same.

[ZA Dater]

On 12/1/2020 at 9:56 PM, Foxhall said:

cash for company- that could be a nice little money spinner for some of these good looking chicks,

Yeah its not easy hard find someone too where it clicks both ways,

easy for some as you mention but not for the rest of us,

your doing the best you can I suppose, at least your not hiding from the world anyway- your still getting out there and going to social functions and going on dates,

fate to throw one your way does'nt seem a lot to ask for.

Personally I find women who prefer walking by the sea or reading in a library, they will suit me better than a woman who likes to go drinking and partying,

You I imagine will be similar. seek out these women by joining the right groups- lol I think you didnt like before when someone suggested you join a hiking club, but going for a suitable demographic, narrow the playing field as it were, would seem worth a shot.

I find my best defense is to just take all the emotion out of it, either I can look at things as well "she might go out with me" or I can say "ok she is tall, athletic, she probably had a big social circle and has 20 guys chasing her" what chance would I have there, then I look at my degree of success and well its a non starter. Or then I find someone like the politics lady and here I have a homebody, does not have a lot of friends so I then reckon my chances might be better, except they are not because not matter how each of us spins it we all want someone different to ourselves.

The problem is for me at least there is not much middle ground between those who have crazy social lives and those who want to tie a guy down and go all white picket fence. I have never really had any sort of social life which I guess puts me way back at the back of the line for MOST.  I just absolutely detest the fact that ladies put in next to zero effort at all, I must throw everything out there and then get rejected anyway so I am at the point where I am simply not going to do that, if someone cannot show overt interest in me then I am just going to walk on by so to speak.

In my view so much of dating success is built on ones ability to have a good social circle and social life, which I simply do not have. My interests simply are not conducive to that at all, I got to car events but again it becomes a game of who has the biggest wallet. One other thing I have stupidly tried over the years is to try and start as a friend and then escalate, that does not work. For example friend tried to set me up with a personal trainer, blond blue eyes, you can imagine the rest but I quickly realized that again here was someone who had massive choice and no reason to pick me. That is the thing, dating for some is about choice and seemingly for others its about hopefully being chosen. 

People can go on about connection this and that but I'd argue without any sort of physical attraction that will never happen. Equally I am fairly fit but I do a LOT worse than guys who are physically not as fit as me. They are fun I am not so one quality can override the other to SOME extent. 

My misguided belief is that people fundamentally seek out good people but that is actually not really true either, I know ladies who put up with endless nonsense from guys because they know the guy has endless options, perhaps more than they do so they just put up it.  I might be quite stupid when it comes to dating but I observe a lot and I can tell you after 25 most relationships seem to last, whether people become good at them or people just feel they are scared of being alone I do not know.  

 

[MeadowFlower]

Erm.... Maybe you should not think so much ZA. Perhaps you analyse excessively. Doesn't all this tire you? 

I wish you could let go. 

[ZA Dater]

52 minutes ago, MeadowFlower said:

Erm.... Maybe you should not think so much ZA. Perhaps you analyse excessively. Doesn't all this tire you? 

I wish you could let go. 

I like thinking, if am really bad at something then I need to figure out why.  What does tire me is the same old same old no matter how I mix things up. Case in point two matches last week, one with similar interests, conversation died after a day. Conclusion, she found someone better. Tried connecting again another two times and nothing so the conclusion is clear. That is the thing, there are reasons for conclusions, understand the reason and then address the problem. The problem is I cannot fix the problem so while the reasons differ the problem remains the same. I had a warmer nicer conversation with a potential arrangement than I had with a potential date, why is that? 

Surely it would make sense to be warm and friendly to a date? Yet time and time again when I compare these two and go down these two different road I find absolutely none of things which are supposed to be part of dating actually are for me and every time there is some sort of advantage to be had for them all the things which should be part of dating are there. Why is it I get more value out of friend zones and connect better that way,  simply because I then have a use, as a date I have zero use, zero experience and zero social standing. Criteria changes I guess.

We all know life is not fair, that is a given so when I wake up at 2 a.m that is the comfort I have. The other comfort is the ability I have to do good, today I bought a street kid some clothes, I see him often, chat with him and this simple gesture meant everything to him. I am not better or worse than anyone else but my approach to life is done on my own terms, the way I want to live. Unfortunately for me this way of living simply does not ever work with dating, it simply does not, I do not drink and often "do you think you would have more dating success if you did", sure I might but then I would be selling out on a principle and choice I made. If someone cannot respect my choices and principles then I'd rather not date them anyway no matter how good looking they might be. 

I do let go but very rarely, there is a very specific type of person who bring out the "just be me" side of me, the side where I do open up and actually share some emotion but this is becoming rare, its easier to sit, look around me, do some good when I cant, lament what is not, dream what might have been and realise while I can do many things I cannot change the perception of people. I can sit at a party, stone cold sober, look around me at people drinking and laughing, guys plying ladies with alcohol, their goal being clear and I simply wonder if this is really what the relations between sexes are,  one coercing the other, a use use scenario. I once took someone I really liked home, most of the evening a mixture of very drunk guys and very high guys had been trying their luck despite me dancing with her, she had had too much. I put her on the couch, covered her in a blanket and let her sleep. Again I ask, what would most guys have done.

There is a price to pay for doing things differently but sometimes its a very heavy price to pay indeed.

[Ellener]

On 11/28/2020 at 12:34 PM, ZA Dater said:

I have chatted with someone I met up with last year for 3 months on and off but the reality is she is alright I suppose but I just feel nothing. If I do not chat to her for a week it does not make any difference to me.

Why would you be talking to someone you feel nothing for? That's almost disrespectful! 

Attraction usually grows, or it does for me, as I get to know someone.

[Ellener]

20 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I do not drink and often "do you think you would have more dating success if you did", sure I might but then I would be selling out on a principle and choice I made. If someone cannot respect my choices and principles then I'd rather not date them anyway no matter how good looking they might be. 

I would never drink on a date, it's not entirely safe for a woman to be getting drunk with a stranger, how does drinking even come up in the conversation?

Lots of people don't drink alcohol. 

[elaine567]

12 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I would agree with you if it were true but it simply is not. How much of the time he has to pretend to be someone he is not to get these ladies, that is another question but what is undoubtedly true is he simply does not struggle to get attention. Throw me into this mix and its nothing but a complete disaster, he has spent years trying to "help" me, set me up with the less attractive people he does not like but there is just zero compatibility and zero interest from them.

In life I am always happy to be proven wrong but frankly I never have been when it comes to dating. I cannot win when the choice is he or I, no matter what good qualities I might have. Go out to any bar or club and the result is always the same.

I believe he is popular, but he will not be popular with ALL the ladies, he will be good at picking out the ones he knows will be willing to give him a chance.
He will read the room, home in on the women who are giving him the eye, the green light and he will be ignoring the rest.
You on the other hand are picking up his rejects and as they were likely interested in him and have been rejected, you do not have a hope in hell.
If you looked kind of similar or were as sociable, charming and entertaining as he is, then yes you might have stood a chance but otherwise no.
If you were interested in the vivacious tall willowy blonde in the corner and ended up talking to her sullen short chubby flatmate instead, would you give that second girl a chance, I guess no. 
So why would you expect these girls who were attracted to him, to choose you?
Even if you were objectively hot, they may still not want you if you are not him and not the type they are looking for.

[basil67]

13 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I would agree with you if it were true but it simply is not. How much of the time he has to pretend to be someone he is not to get these ladies, that is another question but what is undoubtedly true is he simply does not struggle to get attention.

Are you seriously asserting that he has a 100% success with his approaches?  Because that's not how it works.   It's more likely that he schmoozes many, many women so that even a 20% success rate looks like a lot of woman.  Also, he is being himself.  His self is a schmoozy playboy.   

You also mentioned that women don't have to put in effort.  Again wrong.  Do you know what all those online women who put in no effort have in common?  They are SINGLE.   Perhaps a bit more effort on their part would change their outcome and they'd no longer be single.

[MeadowFlower]

22 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Unfortunately for me this way of living simply does not ever work with dating, it simply does not, I do not drink and often "do you think you would have more dating success if you did", sure I might but then I would be selling out on a principle and choice I made. If someone cannot respect my choices and principles then I'd rather not date them anyway no matter how good looking they might be. 

I don't drink often either, not at all actually. And you're right, you should never sell out on your principles. 

And not every girl is into the drunk, lame sex-desiring guys. Well not me that is. 

22 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Why is it I get more value out of friend zones and connect better that way,  simply because I then have a use, as a date I have zero use, zero experience and zero social standing. Criteria changes I guess.

DO NOT underestimate the value of friendship between a guy and a girl. I know not everyone is the same as me, but friendship is HUGE to me. That's a part of the way to my heart. So when you find a girl who is your friend, don't toss that away as being in the 'friend zone', there might be potential...... 

 

Just be you and don't value people for their outward person, but rather for who they are.

[Cookiesandough]

With personals and dating sites becoming main stream, one no longer needs a healthy social life or really any basic social skills at all to date . 

Edited December 5, 2020 by Shortskirtslonglashes

[ZA Dater]

On 12/4/2020 at 10:39 PM, elaine567 said:

I believe he is popular, but he will not be popular with ALL the ladies, he will be good at picking out the ones he knows will be willing to give him a chance.
He will read the room, home in on the women who are giving him the eye, the green light and he will be ignoring the rest.
You on the other hand are picking up his rejects and as they were likely interested in him and have been rejected, you do not have a hope in hell.
If you looked kind of similar or were as sociable, charming and entertaining as he is, then yes you might have stood a chance but otherwise no.
If you were interested in the vivacious tall willowy blonde in the corner and ended up talking to her sullen short chubby flatmate instead, would you give that second girl a chance, I guess no. 
So why would you expect these girls who were attracted to him, to choose you?
Even if you were objectively hot, they may still not want you if you are not him and not the type they are looking for.

I think the point I am making is his appeal is seemingly universal. Oh and he gets approached, has to do very little approaching. I never stand a chance with anyone he is interested in so yes you are right I have no hope in hell ;).

 

[ZA Dater]

On 12/5/2020 at 8:17 PM, MeadowFlower said:

I don't drink often either, not at all actually. And you're right, you should never sell out on your principles. 

And not every girl is into the drunk, lame sex-desiring guys. Well not me that is. 

DO NOT underestimate the value of friendship between a guy and a girl. I know not everyone is the same as me, but friendship is HUGE to me. That's a part of the way to my heart. So when you find a girl who is your friend, don't toss that away as being in the 'friend zone', there might be potential...... 

 

Just be you and don't value people for their outward person, but rather for who they are.

I guess my problem is one of perception. It does not matter what I do the people I find attractive never find me attractive so I need to find ways to justify that, find the reasons for it and that gives me some sort of closure. Not sure anyone can relate but as time goes by our thinking changes, mine has anyway, I would not say I am bitter but I do certainly have a somewhat grudge like attitude toward the player type of guy and the ladies who swoon all over them. 

There is just no real interest in me, never has been really, its always felt like I need to go be some sort of show pony to try and make them interested in me. Arrangement does give a false level of interest which I guess is why I am more drawn to it as an alternative but the fake cannot be forgotten either.

Maybe I must just own the face I am weird and out and step and just own it. 

[Weezy1973]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

It does not matter what I do the people I find attractive never find me attractive so I need to find ways to justify that, find the reasons for it and that gives me some sort of closure.

That’s because the women you’re attracted to are the ones that are attracted to “player” types. You’re not that. Most people are attracted and want to be with people similar to themselves, but you have such a low opinion of yourself, you shun women that are similar to you. 

 

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Not sure anyone can relate but as time goes by our thinking changes, mine has anyway, I would not say I am bitter but I do certainly have a somewhat grudge like attitude toward the player type of guy and the ladies who swoon all over them. 

I’ve been following your threads for years. Your thinking has not changed. That’s the problem.

 

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

There is just no real interest in me, never has been really, its always felt like I need to go be some sort of show pony to try and make them interested in me.

There likely is plenty of interest in you, but from women that are similar to you and you’re not interested. Your player friend is a party / drinker type. You don’t party nor do you drink. Does it make any sense to be interested in women that do? Any reasonable person would deduce hat those women aren’t your type. 

 

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Arrangement does give a false level of interest which I guess is why I am more drawn to it as an alternative but the fake cannot be forgotten either.

Accurate. You’ve come to this conclusion before. You’re trying to find a cheat code to dating which involves finding love, but without risking rejection or heartbreak. Doesn’t work that way. Never has, never will.

 

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Maybe I must just own the fact I am weird and out of step and just own it. 

This would be great, and you come to this conclusion in practically every thread. But you’ve yet to actually do it. 

[ZA Dater]

14 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

That’s because the women you’re attracted to are the ones that are attracted to “player” types. You’re not that. Most people are attracted and want to be with people similar to themselves, but you have such a low opinion of yourself, you shun women that are similar to you. 

 

I’ve been following your threads for years. Your thinking has not changed. That’s the problem.

 

There likely is plenty of interest in you, but from women that are similar to you and you’re not interested. Your player friend is a party / drinker type. You don’t party nor do you drink. Does it make any sense to be interested in women that do? Any reasonable person would deduce hat those women aren’t your type. 

 

Accurate. You’ve come to this conclusion before. You’re trying to find a cheat code to dating which involves finding love, but without risking rejection or heartbreak. Doesn’t work that way. Never has, never will.

 

This would be great, and you come to this conclusion in practically every thread. But you’ve yet to actually do it. 

What you cannot seem to get is MOST ladies here find the player type very attractive, the glam lifestyle, the parties etc.  Are you honestly telling me you only date people similar to you, does that also mean you eat food similar to what you ate growing up, live in a similar house, drive a similar car, I think you get what I am saying here. Pretty much every single lady I come across drinks and few can understand why I do not. 

Type, that completely ignores Maslow's theory, that being the case we would be all happy to sit at the bottom of the pyramid and just get on with things. "ah its ok, she is not that attractive but heck she likes me so why not", cool I respect people who subscribe to that but I do not. Similar to me, I needed some humor today, cant say I have ever met anyone similar to me.

I have had enough rejection to last many people a lifetime, all rejection no success, hit your head against the wall ten times and tell me you do not suffer ill effects. If you are to be believed its quite normal to go years of being kicked in the face by ladies. 

A good recent example, chat with someone she wants to meet up, she cancels one day before, agree to meet the following week, communication dies and no meeting happens.  

Another example, go on a date and get asked nothing about myself. You know its odd I go on a date (unintentionally) with a pay lady off Tinder and suddenly she is warm, friendly, takes an interest in me, touches my arm, actually puts in the effort but I go out with miss school teacher of whoever and I get zero out of it, no interest, no warmth, no decent conversation. I find myself gravitating toward the more seedy part of "relationships" purely because I get nothing out of Tinder, Bumble, OK cupid etc. Basic morals and principles keep me away from that but I wont lie there is appeal to actually getting some sort of connection.

[Ellener]

12 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Pretty much every single lady I come across drinks and few can understand why I do not. 

How do they know? I almost always have ordered soft drinks out in the US anyway, since I'm usually driving. No one's ever asked me about it. 

17 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Basic morals and principles keep me away from that but I wont lie there is appeal to actually getting some sort of connection.

Are you looking for women who share your morals and principles? I mean, looking in the right places? There are tons of churches here where people like to talk about morals, some of them are teetotal. What other avenues for meeting people- colleges? Volunteer work? What are your passions and interests?

 

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, Ellener said:

How do they know? I almost always have ordered soft drinks out in the US anyway, since I'm usually driving. No one's ever asked me about it. 

Are you looking for women who share your morals and principles? I mean, looking in the right places? There are tons of churches here where people like to talk about morals, some of them are teetotal. What other avenues for meeting people- colleges? Volunteer work? What are your passions and interests?

 

Churches are big no no for me. Here when go out to dinner wine is a fairy normal social norm so when you don't partake it does stand out more than a bit. 

My interests are just not conducive to meeting ladies at all. At the moment I have reached the fork in the road, left or right and I need to choose which way to go and what my approach should be. Its easy to identify problems, its near impossible to identify workable solutions. Or maybe the warm nice people I have met are not indicative of people in general, perhaps, warm friendly and taking an interest are not normal dating attributes. 

Its very odd when basic economics gets me warm and caring but dating does not. For me that is very difficult to reconcile. In the back of my mind I know nobody has ever taken any interest in me so it becomes more difficult to not see what I do see, which is simply a throw away dating society. 

Such is life. Some mistakes cannot be fixed.

[normal person]

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

What you cannot seem to get is MOST ladies here find the player type very attractive, the glam lifestyle, the parties etc

I can't imagine women in South Africa are that much more enthralled with that lifestyle than any other place in the world. Are there some? Sure. Does it represent the majority of women? I'd bet not. Most of the women I've encountered in New York are not party-going, glamorous, vapid people with no regard for a man's character. No one wants to date someone with the personality of a brick, but that doesn't mean you have to buy bottles at the night club every weekend either. I bet if you took a poll of women aged 27+ you'd find a long list of things that were more important in a man than whether or not he acts as you describe (and many would be actively turned off by it).

[ZA Dater]

8 minutes ago, normal person said:

 I bet if you took a poll of women aged 27+ you'd find a long list of things that were more important in a man than whether or not he acts as you describe (and many would be actively turned off by it).

Well I'll take your word for it and keep looking for them. Not that I am holding my breath. You yourself has mentioned before its a game of options, he who represents the best option really wins, its about value and who has more value and really its working to somehow create value but when it enough?

Its unfortunate I guess that all I see is the very worst of dating, friend met someone, he is 25 years older than her, she prefer older guys because they are better in bed. Cool, so your entire choice at dating is based on bedroom prowess, forget who the person is its all down to one thing. Sorry I really struggle to reconcile that, its like me saying well I will only date 5.9 blonds. Except unlike her I have no value whereas at 25 most 50+ guys would love to have her. 

I go to a get together and there are 25-29yo there, me at 36 and two other guys at 53-54yo. Guess how much interest I got, zero and to be honest I knew this would happen so I hardly bothered putting in much effort. Good stories are extremely hard for me to find so sure I am negative but you would be to.

But you know what at least I can still believe in an idea.