Does this sound like an affair

[mark clemson]

On 12/6/2020 at 6:31 AM, Cocolemon said:

I’m not feeling anxious anymore, just kinda numb. Not sure if that’s an improvement or a setback 

 

Just going to reiterate the below - sounds like this IS an affair, at least to you...

 

On 11/30/2020 at 8:51 AM, mark clemson said:

Particularly if there is no intimate contact, defining whether something is an affair and/or "emotional affair" is in partly "in the eye of the beholder" in this case the beholder being the spouse.

 

[S2B]

Quote

Wiseman2 

Posted 18 hours ago

   On 12/6/2020 at 8:05 PM,  S2B said: 

So what is his role in “working on the marriage”? 

   On 12/6/2020 at 6:31 AM,  Cocolemonsaid: 

. That he is sorry he went to others about our marriage and that he turned to the attentions of other women.

So agreed to marriage counseling. 

 

Wiseman...

that is lip service and there’s no action involved to show changes/changed behavior.

an apology is without the action to back it out is just empty words - or rather sorry he got caught instead of sorry he did that.

Edited December 8, 2020 by S2B

[Wiseman2]

6 minutes ago, S2B said:

that is lip service and there’s no action involved to show changes/changed behavior.

They are going to professional marriage therapy for sound neutral advice. That is an action.

It's doubtful overproving things with "action" beyond this important first step would do anything but feed her paranoia.

She has already confronted and interrogated the woman, the woman's husband, all his co-workers and totally embarrassed herself.

The husband flirts to much, disregards her and the marriage is devoid of communication and intimacy. That's a marital problem, not an affair.

[S2B]

So HE needs individual therapy first - to address his need to seek female attention outside his marriage. To roll through every scene that’s causes harm to his marriage - and admitting how HE participated... and then address how he can participate completely opposite in the future to secure a better outcome to rebuild trust.

after that is when marriage counseling could be more helpful.

it’s kind of that he’s made his actions HER problem to solve. I think he needs to own his behavior and work on his problems first.

[Wiseman2]

My advice stands. Generally don't follow the infidelity sites memes and general tinfoil hat style advice, that spills over to here.

 Most of the advice that spills over are things that can't be accomplished, are illegal in many jurisdictions or simply nonsense voodoo like polygraphs.

This is not the debating forum, this is my advice to the original poster.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Wiseman2

[DKT3]

I will say this, be careful of anyone who trys to invalidate your feelings...we have a poster or two here who act almost like infidelities are not a thing, and you can simply go away for a few days and get over it. If only it were that simple. Going away then marriage counseling isn't going to work.  There is alot more to having a normal health relationship after,  even if it's with a different person. 

[Pottering About]

Can we put the question of any affair aside for one moment and look at other issues here.

The OP is obviously uncomfortable with the relationship between the two people. She has tried to deal with it low and then high key without proper acknowledgment from her husband. I would love to see his reaction if roles were reversed.

The husband is 46 years old yet is cavorting around like an immature teenager. How comfortable are his colleagues with their behaviour really? They may make all the right noises but isn’t it embarrassing to see 46 year olds sitting on laps, massaging legs, getting giggly and flirting? Does not make for a great working environment.
 

The 46 year old man is now flirting with the intern. Creepy or what? Just what a young intern needs, an older man acting inappropriately.

How long is it going to be before his and her behaviours are going to cause major problems at work? The OP has already talked about the employer’s attitude to workplace affairs. If nothing else, should he modify his behaviour to avoid any potential disciplinary? 

Knowing that his wife is very uncomfortable with matters, should he actually be sensitive to her needs, rather than putting this friendship first? If he doesn’t put her first, what does this say about the state of their marriage and his level of respect for his wife?

The OP felt the need to talk to the the OW’s husband and colleagues and now feels she has made a fool of herself but it is her husband that put her in that position and he should be the one who is ashamed. Why isn’t he picking up on her unhappiness, how many red flags does he need? The OP is already starting to think about divorce and the trouble is these thoughts can quickly escalate even if it may not be the best route.?
 

He may write off his behaviour to being “who he is” but there is a line which is easily crossed and he needs to realise people may not be looking at him as the life and soul of the party but as a ridiculous “oldest swinger in town”?

I had to deal with a lot of similar cases when working in HR which did cause problems for peoples’ careers. In fairness, disclosure came as a shock to most of them and, once it was brought to light, behaviours were modified. In this case, all the OP is asking him to do is take it down a few notches.

Finally, the OP has said she has a lot of additional pressures and fears of affairs may be how her problems are manifested. This really is a time when the husband needs to step up and show himself to be worthy as a husband, especially as he is intent on bringing a child into the house which, no doubt, he will expect his wife to look after. I may be wrong, but I think these additional pressures are the problem, not the possibility of an affair.
 

He shouldn’t be complacent about divorce if this is the OP’s chosen route. From comments about the other woman’s domestic situation, I think he is due for a heavy fall if he thinks she will dump her family. However, I feel divorce should be way down the track here.

First question to her husband at Counselling for me would be when is he going to take his head out of his a*#se and starting being a grown up? Otherwise, you could always buy him a giant medallion and chest hair wig for Christmas.😆

 

Good luck and just think, when your niece comes to live in your house, you will have 2 children to look after.

[Wiseman2]

15 minutes ago, Pottering About said:

 .Why isn’t he picking up on her unhappiness, how many red flags does he need? 

The husband has suggested marriage therapy multiple times before.... She kept Refusing.

He's inappropriate yes, but marriage therapy is the safest place to start that conversation as well as the conversation about lack of intimacy and all the other marital problems.

Both coexist. One did not cause the other. Professional advice is best here.

 

[Pottering About]

The husband has suggested marriage therapy many times before .... She kept refusing?

Conversation about the lack of intimacy?
 

Have I missed this in the OP’s posts? What I do see is sitting on laps, massages, hugging, flirting - how many people work in offices where this is tolerated because, if you do, I have obviously missed out on life.

 

I do however agree with you that professional help may be needed here to work on the husband in particular.
 

 

[elaine567]

2 hours ago, Pottering About said:

The husband has suggested marriage therapy many times before .... She kept refusing?

Conversation about the lack of intimacy?
Have I missed this in the OP’s posts?

I must have missed it too....

[usa1ah]

On 12/1/2020 at 7:42 AM, Cocolemon said:

Is it an admission of an affair when he said “ if am going to be accused of cheating I may as well have” as in I may as well have gotten the pleasure of doing what am accused of.

He does admit she’s attractive when I made the comment he agreed, so there’s sexual interest here. 
 

Not sure if that was his admission to it. I had been pushing for an answer and in anger he burst out that 

I could be that he has had the opportunity to cheat. It might not even be with the coworker. 
 

[Cocolemon]

Update

We started marriage therapy and I’m also going to attend individual therapy. 
 

We didn’t argue at all the past two days and actually had a nice weekend, it’s a working progress. I’m seeing his side of things and he is seeing mine, so we have understanding of each other. 
 

Will update if things take a turn for the worse. 

[JRabbit]

I'm really surprised people are OK with their husbands/wives massaging other people, especially at work??  Is that type of physical contact at work not inappropriate? Not just at work but in a relationship

I would not be ok with my SO hugging, and massaging co workers.  Not one bit.

[Cocolemon]

1 hour ago, JRabbit said:

I'm really surprised people are OK with their husbands/wives massaging other people, especially at work??  Is that type of physical contact at work not inappropriate? Not just at work but in a relationship

I would not be ok with my SO hugging, and massaging co workers.  Not one bit.

I’m not ok with it, that’s part of the reason I came to post here. I guess he had felt neglected in our marriage and when he had come to me about it he felt like I would change for a week or two and then revert back to before, so he started taking it outside the marriage with his coworkers.

The massage did bother me because she wears skirts at the office and well, he massages her leg (calf area) I asked if he went higher and he said no, but he could be lying. He also dressed as Santa two years in a row and for pictures the women sat on his lap and so did she, it was after that that she got comfortable and would sit on his lap whenever. Her husband doesn’t mind she’s a flirt and possible cheat, but maybe they have a great sex life or even an open marriage I don’t  know about.

I feel it takes two to make the marriage work and I wasn’t putting in my part, I was mourning my miscarriages and feeling resentful that others have happy families while I’ve never been able to have a child of my own, I’ve never been able to be a mom. That was my dream for so long and now at 43, it’s too late. I felt too that maybe he resented me for not being able to give him children and his friend/coworker has 3 ! Maybe he thought he should have married her ? He denies these feelings though and said he was not resentful that I couldn’t give him kids, he was only resentful that I ignored him as a man and wasn’t loving to him, but says that’s no excuse for his behavior and that he is sorry. He said maybe it was for the best we didn’t have any and we can focus on his niece who needs a loving home. 

I do know now that I can’t live in the past and I can’t dwell on what could have been if I was able to have kids. He has stated he wants to be with me and is sorry for his lack of boundaries but assured me they never had sex. We ourselves have always had sex at least once a week, but I wasn’t always “feeling” it and he could pick up on that. 
 

Things have changed the last two days and I do feel different about him now than before in a good way, and I see that he cares for me too. It’s worth saving as long as he is trying and wants to be with me. 

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, Cocolemon said:

We started marriage therapy and I’m also going to attend individual therapy. 
 

We didn’t argue at all the past two days and actually had a nice weekend, it’s a working progress. I’m seeing his side of things and he is seeing mine, so we have understanding of each other. 

Excellent. It's the first step in healing, understanding each other better and insight.

[Pottering About]

Glad you have both made a start but my reading of your latest update is that you are looking at your apparent failures without him doing the same. How many times do we see blame shifting on this site? You are not to blame for anything here!
 

Where is his acknowledgment that the massages, sitting on laps etc are unacceptable and make you very uncomfortable? 

 

What changes is he going to make to his totally unacceptable behaviour in the workplace? 
 

If he doesn’t make any REAL changes, is your resentment going to resurface in say 12 months time? Are you going to feel his colleagues are laughing at you behind your back?

Now that everything is out in the open, what is the likelihood of them going on to a physical affair?

Have you thought about adoption? At 43, it would not be too late at all.

Glad you have made a start towards a better relationship but I do worry for you and, if. I were you, I would want to see a list drawn up between the two of you of behaviours which YOU consider unacceptable or which make YOU feel uncomfortable. Don’t allow him to dismiss any of your concerns! He should then quite simply stop doing these things if he has any respect for you and your marriage. I would bet that any list you draw up would mirror things tha his colleagues feel  uncomfortable with. 
 

You mentioned in an earlier post that you were expecting other, outside pressures. We’re you able to bring this up and what changes is he going to make to offer you much needed support?

If my spouse/partner was behaving like yours I WOULD BE AS MAD AS HELL AND SAY I AM NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Pottering About
Update

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, Pottering About said:

 you are looking at your apparent failures without him doing the same.

He apologized multiple times, stopped the behaviors And was the one to suggest working on the marriage and seeing A Professional, whose advice they are wise to follow.

Stirring the pot of anger and suspicions doesn't help.

[Pottering About]

Wiseman2. As I often wonder if I am reading the same posts as you, I went back over this thread. 
 

The Husband has said he was sorry for his lack of boundaries once at MC and has apologised for his behaviours caused by his resentment. He also said, when confronted by his wife, that their marriage needed to be fixed. 
 

I am very happy for you, or anyone else, to show me where he was the one to suggest seeing a professional, where he has apologised multiple times and where, he has stopped the behaviours.
 

Has he actually said he was wrong and apologised for disrespecting and/or embarrassing her, not that I could see?

Has he acknowledged that, once he stops working from home, he will stop the flirting, sitting on laps etc with immediate effect because I could not see it?

OP, has he started working from home yet? If so, has there been any contact with this other woman (e mails, texts, phone calls etc)?  If he is still working in the office, has he stopped the inappropriate behaviour?

Okay, he has taken one step but is this just rug sweeping to shut his wife up or does he genuinely feel remorse? IMO there is still a lot to be done to repair this marriage permanently which is why I asked the questions.
 

It may be uncomfortable but these posts are asking questions only, not telling her what to do. 

 

[Wiseman2]

1 minute ago, Pottering About said:

Wiseman2. As I often wonder if I am reading the same posts as you, I went back over this thread. 

Sorry if you couldn't find that post.

Personal dislike of another member has no place in any post, on any thread.

[Pottering About]

Both myself and elaine567 queried your version of events on 8th December and, if one disagrees with another poster, then I think people are fully entitled to challenge just as you challenged me. One of the strengths of this forum is that a wide rang of people offer a variety of advice and perspectives.
 

I do not dislike you in the slightest, in fact, I have agreed with you on numerous occasions and have even gone as far to say so on one or two posts.

 

[Wiseman2]

44 minutes ago, Pottering About said:

Both myself and elaine567 queried your version of events on 8th December 

Now there's a whole jury  against my advice?😂

Edited December 15, 2020 by Wiseman2

[Acacia98]

On 12/3/2020 at 5:19 PM, Cocolemon said:

She’s outright been seen sitting on his lap as she’s been working. 

I can't speak for anybody else, but confirmation that this had in fact happened would be enough for me to start planning my exit. I wouldn't hang around waiting for them to having full-blown sex in the office with plenty of witnesses.

@Cocolemon, people's values and boundaries are reflected in their behavior. Your husband feels this stuff is okay, justifiable. You don't. You can't change who a person fundamentally is. 

Because there's an innocent involved (his niece), I would plan my exit carefully, doing what I could to preserve some stability in her situation. But I'd definitely be out.

[elaine567]

Sounds to me he has got off lightly.
He rather deftly flipped the script and now it all about your failure as opposed to his disgraceful behaviour.
The working from home will just put a band aid on the problem by keeping him out of trouble.
The niece issue necessitates him trying to keep you sweet. He NEEDS you to do the "caring for the kid" role.
He has even dismissed your upset over having no kids of your own by suggesting it is all for the best so you can care for HIS niece...
So all is hunky dory... FOR HIM.
As he has landed on his feet here by shifting blame and the fact that he knows you will likely not divorce him, then there is nothing really to stop him carrying on as he did before as soon as he gets back to his normal working pattern.

[Acacia98]

On 12/4/2020 at 4:54 PM, KaterinaVon said:

You mention he was flirting and hugging a new intern at work. So if he was having an affair with his long time work colleague of 14 years, why would he risk getting her upset with the new attention to the new intern ? And if he was having a real affair don’t you think he’d be more careful not to get so hands on in front of others ? 

This assumes that folks who cheat all have a certain set of values/way of behaving. But not every cheater is discreet/reluctant to be caught. Some just don't care who sees them. Some actually want to cause their partners pain.

And sometimes, bizarrely, hiding something in plain sight works because many people assume that, if it's done in the open, it must be legit.

[Wiseman2]

On 12/3/2020 at 3:30 PM, Cocolemon said:

. I’m glad he is now respecting my wishes. Just feel like he should have come to me about our marriage problems instead of acting single at work.

 

Agree. A lot will be unpacked and sorted out in marriage therapy.

You can both lay your cards on the table in a safe place and get professional guidence.

It seems like his idea to at least try marriage therapy is a good first step.

Listen to what trained professionals advise you.