Did he ever really love me?

[SS2855]

This may be more a rhetorical question and one that nobody here can tell me for sure, but this is what is killing me: Things quasi-ended a couple weeks ago, officially, with a last message about a week ago that included song lyrics about “wanting it to be me and you”.  Since then just one or two exchanges that were in the friend zone. Why I say quasi-ended is that I finally asked him direct about us as I had felt more push than pull, and I felt like we had a grown up conversation where we both said due to Covid what are we even doing if we can’t see each other and he’s staying in his marriage. It was a great long talk and somehow I hung up feeling good about everything. He said his feelings and ours for each other were getting dangerously strong and thinking the universe was sending a clear sign to stop before something awful (d-day) happens. He also said he wants to preserve as he sees me a huge part of both his professional and personal life and can we salvage at this point. Again I left the conversation feeling good. Of course since time has passed we’ve had very little contact (I guess as expected) and as of recent just a generic happy thanksgiving text and then another saying he was struggling with family issues and a little depression which is not usual for him (has spoken to me about family issues in the past). So I suppose in the end nothing to figure out- I’m simply struggling with this and also angry how he clearly can just end things and move on so easily it seems after 2 years of telling me very regularly how much he loved me and how I mean everything to him. I know this is it but maybe I wished for it to be harder for him then just, well this. He’s very pragmatic so I’m not surprised but genuinely heartbroken and wondering if he was just able to stop feeling (though he says otherwise) so quickly. Could I have been that compartmentalized in his brain and heart where he just naturally fell out of love or could turn off his feelings? It’s weird but I guess I just wish I knew if he was struggling with this like I am. We work together so it’s likely I’ll hear from him this week but don’t think I have it in me for a conversation even if work related. And for the record... I should have listened and ended this solely on my terms.

[SMoore]

My response, which you might not like, is that it doesn’t matter.  You need to reach the place where that is true, absolutely and for all time.

When you get there you will be stronger and wiser, there will be no anger and actually, hopefully, no feeling at all.
Until that happens you’ll be grasping, wondering, fantasising, trapped in your mind, looping over the same impossible questions.

Of course, this is much harder if you work with him.  Staying friends won’t work.  It leaves things open.  But even if you do start things up again, it will probably eventually collapse.  When it does, the response is the same: it doesn’t matter what he feels for you.

I know it doesn’t feel this way but that’s the truth: it really doesn’t matter how he feels now.  That’s your destination, to get to a place where that is true for you.

It really doesn’t matter.

[DKT3]

In my time posting here, one thing has become do obvious that I kinda knew but didn't truly understand the depth of.  Women don't really seem to understand that for men affairs aren't W vs OW/MW. There is no need to drag the wife through the mental mud in order to have an affair.  There is no need or desire to disconnect from the W. 

Why is that important? Because when affairs end they simply go on with thier lives. Sure there may be moments that the OW/MW is missed. But honestly,  there are never the proitry, simply an addion too. 

Despite the words, they rarely have "future intentions" and are living in that moment during the affair,  and when I say that moment I mean when he is interacting with the AP.

OW/MW is rarely the end game, the confusion and pain you feel now will only be felt if his wife finds out. 

He had different goals with the affair. 

None of that means he didn't love you, or doesn't miss you, it just means he isn't struggling like you because you were never that close to his center. 

[BaileyB]

The decision to betray a spouse and have an affair is a selfish decision - benefiting only the spouse who turns away from the marriage. He wasn’t really thinking about his wife’s feelings when he made this decision, he was focused on number one. 

And now, your affair has ended and he is still focused on number one - and you are surprised? This selfish, self absorbed, and entitled behavior is in keeping with the man who decided to cheat on his wife - you just didn’t notice this about him before because you were so flattered by his attention and pleased to be by his side...

Edited November 30, 2020 by BaileyB

[BaileyB]

6 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

He had different goals with the affair.

Indeed. Different goals, and different priorities. And let’s not forget, men and women think about relationships and sex very, very differently...

[SS2855]

31 minutes ago, SMoore said:

My response, which you might not like, is that it doesn’t matter.  You need to reach the place where that is true, absolutely and for all time.

When you get there you will be stronger and wiser, there will be no anger and actually, hopefully, no feeling at all.
Until that happens you’ll be grasping, wondering, fantasising, trapped in your mind, looping over the same impossible questions.

Of course, this is much harder if you work with him.  Staying friends won’t work.  It leaves things open.  But even if you do start things up again, it will probably eventually collapse.  When it does, the response is the same: it doesn’t matter what he feels for you.

I know it doesn’t feel this way but that’s the truth: it really doesn’t matter how he feels now.  That’s your destination, to get to a place where that is true for you.

It really doesn’t matter.

Thank you. I’m so scared I won’t get there. But no other choice really right? Or will I eventually evolve to that end?

[SS2855]

15 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

The decision to betray a spouse and have an affair is a selfish decision - benefiting only the spouse who turns away from the marriage. He wasn’t really thinking about his wife’s feelings when he made this decision, he was focused on number one. 

And now, your affair has ended and he is still focused on number one - and you are surprised? This selfish, self absorbed, and entitled behavior is in keeping with the man who decided to cheat on his wife - you just didn’t notice this about him before because you were so flattered by his attention and pleased to be by his side...

You are right. I’ve lapped up the attention like a glutton. I craved it and looking back I realize I was likely ripe for an affair with most anyone - just knowing that I wanted to be wanted. I remember talking to my doctor years ago at just a regular visit about what to do because my spouse doesn’t like to talk or have intimacy. I don’t blame him as I took the actions, but I know I should have left when I realized we were broke beyond repair.

[SS2855]

29 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

In my time posting here, one thing has become do obvious that I kinda knew but didn't truly understand the depth of.  Women don't really seem to understand that for men affairs aren't W vs OW/MW. There is no need to drag the wife through the mental mud in order to have an affair.  There is no need or desire to disconnect from the W. 

Why is that important? Because when affairs end they simply go on with thier lives. Sure there may be moments that the OW/MW is missed. But honestly,  there are never the proitry, simply an addion too. 

Despite the words, they rarely have "future intentions" and are living in that moment during the affair,  and when I say that moment I mean when he is interacting with the AP.

OW/MW is rarely the end game, the confusion and pain you feel now will only be felt if his wife finds out. 

He had different goals with the affair. 

None of that means he didn't love you, or doesn't miss you, it just means he isn't struggling like you because you were never that close to his center. 

Makes sense. He never promised a future and I never asked, but many times he would message me “I love you so much what should we do???!” as if he were contemplating how to be with me. I got swallowed in the fantasy. I am replaying so much of that in my head and hurting because it doesn’t compute how the grief of our ending does not seem to hurt him. He also was a very close colleague and close friend- I think he expects we’ll go back to that but I know I can’t and don’t want to because I feel bitter toward him even though I don’t really have reason to do I? 

[mark clemson]

There's more than one kind of MM in an affair IMO, so there's really no way to know this. Perhaps he loved you, but not enough to deal with the practical issues of ending a marriage, rolling the dice on you, etc.

It's also noteworthy that deciding whether someone is in love with someone else is partly a matter of opinion. There are people who are "in love with" celebrities who they never actually have had a conversation with. Delusion perhaps, but it's apparently real to them.

[SS2855]

1 minute ago, mark clemson said:

It's also noteworthy that deciding whether someone is in love with someone else is partly a matter of opinion. There are people who are "in love with" celebrities who they never actually have had a conversation with. Delusion perhaps, but it's apparently real to them.

This part I don’t follow?

[mark clemson]

21 minutes ago, SS2855 said:

This part I don’t follow?

No worries - I'll leave it at this, then:

It's also noteworthy that deciding whether someone is in love with someone else is partly a matter of opinion.

[DKT3]

11 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

No worries - I'll leave it at this, then:

It's also noteworthy that deciding whether someone is in love with someone else is partly a matter of opinion.

Its actually all opinions....hell its opinions whether someone's spouse is in love with them....however the accompanied behavior usually supports one or the other. If one needs to ask then they are probably in denial abit.

In this situation its not really about love, I'm not sure they love one another, or I should say its conditional at best...If OP truly loved MM she would remove herself since he has made it pretty clear the worst outcome would be his wife finding out. While MM should remove himself because he is unable or unwilling to provide OP with what she needs. Conditional Love at best, or selfishly using one another to thier benefit. 

[SS2855]

9 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

While MM should remove himself because he is unable or unwilling to provide OP with what she needs.

MM has said on many occasions after his last gush of sentiments that he feels if he truly went by doing right by me (at the very least) he would end it so I can find someone that can give me 100% as I deserve that. I want to believe that’s what this is vs. just being over it. I too have not and do not plan to initiate any contact. With that comes this- do I delete our messaging app now? I need to as we haven’t communicated on it for several days but it feels so final. I need to do it and never look back. I suppose he doesn’t need to know if I do but I guess that’s symbolic. I start therapy this week- I realize as I’m asking for advice all of this was my choice and I did something to hurt another person even if they do not know it. I know I don’t really deserve support. 

I have a virtual meeting tomorrow which he will be part of. I’m scared of how I’ll feel with him on the call. We didn’t decide on a “no contact” but I realize it’s the only way for me now as too much hurt.

[DKT3]

Transferred affection......most affairs are pretty simple.  Especially for women.  Understanding that this has alot more to do with your marriage and the imagery of MM then him as a person.  You place your energy in MM that you use to place in your marriage.  Initially you got a much better response. This is where the addiction comes in.

All of this is to say, its mostly about your mindset. When you decide its over, its over.  But until you decide its over its not. Right now, its not.

[SS2855]

I’m sure that is the case @DKT3 . It’s struck me as something too that I’m at this moment running to put all this energy in to even a broken affair from a conversation with my husband who is asking me to work things out with us even though I know I cannot and do not want to.  He blows up when I try to talk to him so I get scared and stop the conversation  thus pushing myself away again from something that needs addressing for my livelihood vs... this. 

[DKT3]

32 minutes ago, SS2855 said:

I’m sure that is the case @DKT3 . It’s struck me as something too that I’m at this moment running to put all this energy in to even a broken affair from a conversation with my husband who is asking me to work things out with us even though I know I cannot and do not want to.  He blows up when I try to talk to him so I get scared and stop the conversation  thus pushing myself away again from something that needs addressing for my livelihood vs... this. 

Unfortunately your marriage will have to be dealt with.  In this moment,  it may seem the right answer is divorce,  truth be told, its actually the worst decision you can make at this moment simply because your energy is elsewhere.  Not to mention there is a very good chance you've masked some feelings with your affair.  Even more unfortunate is you may not realize this until your husband is dating some woman 10 years younger then you.

Either way,  there is some real pain and agony left to be felt with ending your marriage.  You likely don't see it now because you're distracted and all wrapped up in this other guy.

I wish I could remember the posters name, but years ago her story was very similar to yours. Left her marriage that she swore was over looong before the affair.  Moved out, her affair went up in flames. Months later she was back thinking she made a mistake and divorced too soon for the wrong reasons.  After two years of being in an affair and likely more then that infatuated with this other guy it can really be hard to be sure. 

[BaileyB]

2 hours ago, SS2855 said:

MM has said on many occasions after his last gush of sentiments that he feels if he truly went by doing right by me (at the very least) he would end it so I can find someone that can give me 100% as I deserve that.

And then he proceeded to make it all about him - by dumping his “family issues” on you and telling you that he was depressed... you would feel sorry for him, and on and on it goes... He’s not doing right by you, he’s acting in his own best interest. 

Had he done right by you, and his wife, this affair never would have happened...

Edited December 1, 2020 by BaileyB

[BaileyB]

2 hours ago, DKT3 said:

All of this is to say, its mostly about your mindset. When you decide its over, its over.  But until you decide its over its not. Right now, its not.

No, it’s not. This discussion is all about what he wants, what he’s thinking, how she is going to respond when she sees him on the zoom call... 

[DKT3]

5 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

No, it’s not. This discussion is all about what he wants, what he’s thinking, how she is going to respond when she sees him on the zoom call... 

Once she decides its over,  what he does will be irrelevant.  As long as she holds out hope he controls her and she will follow his lead despite her words.

She asked the questions how can she get over him while working with him...the answer. ... the same way she got over her husband while living with him decide its over and change the mindset. 

[SS2855]

@DKT3 lots of good points- while you are always painfully direct it’s truths I need to hear. Regarding my marriage I agree with what you say, though there is and has been a lot of problems that I chose to ignore at the start of thinking my “love” for my spouse would fix everything and make him want to change (I may have said in earlier posts but don’t want to list here). I had friends and some family tell me while they adored my spouse as a person they did not think it a good idea I marry him given a handful of issues. I know I have mine too clearly but this is one where for years his own family has “thanked me” for taking care of him because they knew he would have veered off if I didn’t. I am a people pleaser by nature and as I’ll learn more in therapy there was a big desire to help and fix my spouse when I met him. I think I even felt like a hero when I’d hear that because it made me feel good at the time that I was needed. Looking back I realize now it’s been toxic and likely I’ve jumped to this new infatuation as a result and I’m sure for other reasons about myself I have yet to face. For a myriad of reasons I have had to play the wife and “husband” role in a way and selfishly I think I wanted to feel taken care of in the traditional chivalrous way, and this MM would do just that. Not right but as I try to be more introspective about the why it starts to make some sense to me. 

[DKT3]

Its great that you are starting to recognize the origins. I will share a bit with you if you don't mind. 

Early in my first marriage (same woman twice) I actually bought a whole house without her knowing.  I thought man she will be excited.  Good intentions but....

Point being, when you jumped into the role of second mother you set your marriage up to fail. Mothers don't leave no matter how poor ones behavior is. So what would have been your husband’s catalyst to change?  I took the role as father to my wife, I wanted to protect her from difficult choices and decisions,  I kept my troubles away from her and like your husband she rebelled like a child. Moreso then that,  I had her on a pedestal,  I viewed her as a perfect woman.  She knew it and for years attempted to live up to my views. It created a great deal of stress on her.

I share this because we all need to have introspection,  we all need to realize how our behaviors led to what our current situation is. 

Its easy to say "its them" which most MW here do all the time. Digging through all the crap is the best way to reset, either giving your marriage a second chance or moving on. Either direction you go, MM is holding you back.

We had a woman here 4 or 5 years ago that was stuck right were you are for two decades....I'm not joking.  She and her husband actually moved to the opposite coast and once ever so often MM would call and she would fall right back into that hole.

You are much stronger than you think. Set a goal for this time next year and get rid of everything that gets in the way of that goal. Every step with get easier.  Change your focus point from MM to figuring out your marriage.  The more you focus there the less you will hurt because of MM. Not because you will fall madly in love with your husband again (very possible,  but not likely) but because you are working towards your goal and ultimately genuine authenticity and happiness.  

[DKT3]

I wanted to add one more thing....I've been at this for a long time. I've spent alot of time trying to figure it all out, curse of being Type A...

I must say. I have alot of confidence in you. As you say, I can be direct, but you haven't resisted which to me shows you really want to be better. Unlike so many others in your situation who I believe is mainly here to find someone who will pat them on the head and say its all ok...because its not. Your actions have and will continue to negatively impact those who depend on you. Your willingness to take the time to digest what's being said will aid you a great deal. I know its hurtful to hear somethings.  I for one benefitted the most from those who challenged my  thinking when I first came here...not those who cosigned my thoughts. The greatest growth comes from the greatest tragedies.

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, SS2855 said:

Regarding my marriage I agree with what you say, though there is and has been a lot of problems that I chose to ignore at the start of thinking my “love” for my spouse would fix everything and make him want to change.

Have you not done a little of that with your affair partner too. You’ve ignored a lot of red flags, are here you are (deep down) still believing that your love should be enough to fix everything, to make him want to be with you, to find a better outcome for yourself... 

Edited December 1, 2020 by BaileyB

[SS2855]

@DKT3 I remember when I first posted on here maybe a year and a half ago. I was annoyed by your commentary because I truly did feel my situation was different (and yes still I have moments of thinking it is - it has to be right?). As time has gone on everything that you and some others stated is exactly what is happening. Maybe I wasn’t totally in la la land but enough to think that it was mostly bad timing for me and MM vs. a want for this man because of issues going on with myself. I have buried myself in MM- because of work travel I could run away when I didn’t want to deal with my broken marriage and live this double life, and play pretend as often times we’d be in different cities, exploring and “dating” where nobody knew us. I have been swept up in this MM who symbolizes all these things (on the outside of course) that I wanted and felt deserving of in a spouse- stable, successful, well traveled, healthy, clean, fit etc. One of the first times out he made the dinner reservation and ordered for me, and that alone blew me away. But I feel shame because while I fawned over the chivalry and romanticism I know that I allowed myself to control my marriage and be the “man”- who knows maybe my spouse would have taken control if I let him, but I just assumed the role of care taking and he rolled with it. That is where I take some responsibility  in our brokenness. I’ve enabled and it’s only done more harm than good. You are right and I like your home analogy. I need to shift focus badly to finally address my issues with my marriage. I don’t want to feel this way again this time next year. It’s ironic I feel so awful now with the affair over yet I’ve felt awful from day 1 even when it was at its peak. This pain feels different or heightened though of course.

[SS2855]

50 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Have you not done a little of that with your affair partner too. You’ve ignored a lot of red flags, are here you are (deep down) still believing that your love should be enough to fix everything, to make him want to be with you, to find a better outcome for yourself... 

Its true isn’t it. I have not thought about it this way.

I’ve put so much on this person I realize- like they feel to me my perfect match to make me feel whole. I guess the experts say “only I can do that”. Still trying to figure out how that works.