Did he ever really love me?

[SS2855]

1 hour ago, DKT3 said:

 

I must say. I have alot of confidence in you. As you say, I can be direct, but you haven't resisted which to me shows you really want to be better.

Thank you. This means a lot to me as I do want to get better. I want to feel just good again.

[Wiseman2]

Sorry to hear that. Married people string you along for thier own benefit. It's what they do.

It's up to you if you want to continue being led by a carrot and stick or you want a relationship of your own.

Stop and reflect. Unavailable people choose other unavailable people.

[Whaatamidoing]

The initial question you ask about whether he really loved/loves you is something that I, as an OW always find myself asking.

Many comments on here refer to the ability of men to compartmentalise a lot better than women and I hope this switch off of emotions is confused by them just packing it back into its compartment and locking it away. It can be extremely hurtful though. I find my emotions can be all consuming, if plans to meet fall through, I am thoroughly disappointed and his reaction is oh well I'll see you another time. I feel like I am living on the last ever time all the time where as he is settled and feels it doesn't matter because there is always tomorrow. Is there always tomorrow in an affair? there is always tomorrow for the wife but not the OW.

The compartmentalisation thing upsets me on a regular basis because he thinks very simply. For instance, last Christmas I had an app called Elf Yourself, I was playing around and put his photo to it and it made for very amusing viewing, him dancing around the screen dressed as a Christmas Elf. I was then over his computer whilst he showed me something and it moved to his sent items screen. He had sent it to his wife with a message saying though this would make your day. Granted I was not supposed to see this but i'm sure she wouldn't have been too impressed realising I had made it. He just puts that into a funny anecdote box and shows anyone, for me it was something funny that we did together and he took that and showed it to his wife. As the OW her feelings are always protected and ours are not.

The other point that many have made about this is about flattery and control. I would say exactly the same thing has happened to me and being blow away by being ordered for at a restaurant. My AP took the lead, he showed interest, he was the first to mention that this might be more than an arrangement, he was the first to hint at little things that made me feel like I could let down my guard, he would pay if we went out, he would keep the fridge stocked, he would always take the lead. No one had treated me like that before and I liked feeling as though I could rely on him. The longer this has gone on, the more I realise that his behaviour is quite controlling and rather selfish. He's paying therefore we eat where he wants, he stocks the fridge so we can have a drink together, its not my favourite things, its his. I truly believe that the affair fog is a real thing, instead of thinking wow, he didn't consider me when he stocked the fridge, all I saw was awwwww he stocked the fridge, he's so perfect. I realise this is an odd analogy but you get the picture.

The real answer is I don't know. If you love someone do you control them? If you love someone do you compartmentalise your emotions? I cherish him and would be with him in a second because I love him so in my situation I guess i have argued that no, he probably doesn't love me.

Maybe I watched too much Disney as a kid, it seems that if the prince loves the princess he will defeat all who get in his way to be with her.  Part of me thinks that 'life' getting in the way is an excuse. People are adaptable and they overcome but only if they want to.

My parents divorced when I was a kid and you know what, my teenage years were much happier as a result. We adapted and we got over it.

ONLY IF THEY WANT TO. I think in many cases, they probably don't really want to.

[BaileyB]

Quote

The real answer is I don't know. If you love someone do you control them? If you love someone do you compartmentalise your emotions? 

I think the problem with affairs is there is always one partner who benefits more than the other. Affairs tend to benefit both people in the beginning, but over time that shifts, and one person is usually left wanting...

As has been said, in relationships there is often one partner who is more invested than the other. In this case, it is quite obviously because one partner has other interests and other priorities. What you describe as “compartmentalising” is really just focusing their attention on other aspects of their life... their children, their wife, their home life, their work. They may have really enjoyed their time with their affair partner, but now it’s on to other things... He is not left rheumanating in the way their affair partner does, there is simply no time for that because his wife and children meet him at the door.

Edited December 1, 2020 by BaileyB

[mark clemson]

14 hours ago, DKT3 said:

Its actually all opinions....its opinions whether someone's spouse is in love with them...

Correct IMO.

 

14 hours ago, DKT3 said:

 its conditional at best...

Sure, but unconditional love is a concept, not an actual reality. For example - "I loved her unconditionally UNTIL she cheated."

In reality ALL love is conditional. There's going to be something that COULD make you stop loving the other person. Even if it's as extreme as going crazy and killing your mom or what have you.

You might take responsibility for the person you used to love and get them help. You might leave or let them leave and CLAIM you still love them. But really those would just be words. Or a matter of opinion. Letting them go, not actually wanting to be with them but calling it love is just romantic flim-flam.

Edited December 1, 2020 by mark clemson

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

Sure, but unconditional love is a concept, not an actual reality. For example - "I loved her unconditionally UNTIL she cheated."

In reality ALL love is conditional

I think the only unconditional love I can think of is that a parent can have for a child.
Not all parents, just some.

[mark clemson]

5 hours ago, mark clemson said:

You might take responsibility for the person you used to love and get them help. You might leave or let them leave and CLAIM you still love them. But really those would just be words. Or a matter of opinion. Letting them go, not actually wanting to be with them but calling it love is just romantic flim-flam.

I realize I probably misspoke. Romantic flim-flam might be more along the lines of things of things an insincere partner/player says.

I'm not sure what to call "calling it love" when you end a relationship that you could stay in but don't actually want to. Maybe romanticizing or dressing up a break up I guess.

[SMoore]

I’m trying to figure that out too.  It’s about attachment really, and how we grasp for things outside of ourselves - not just romantically but in work and family and possessions and security and friendships etc.  Get to know what attachment is, how it manifests for you - wanting and needing, fear of losing etc - then turn within and try and realise that you were born whole and will die whole.  You’re not actually lacking anything.  It’s just so damn hard seeing that.  I’m still on that journey.

[SMoore]

15 hours ago, SS2855 said:

Its true isn’t it. I have not thought about it this way.

I’ve put so much on this person I realize- like they feel to me my perfect match to make me feel whole. I guess the experts say “only I can do that”. Still trying to figure out how that works.

I replied to this.  Didn’t realise there was another page!

Must be tired...

[BaileyB]

41 minutes ago, SMoore said:

I’m trying to figure that out too.  It’s about attachment really, and how we grasp for things outside of ourselves - not just romantically but in work and family and possessions and security and friendships etc.  Get to know what attachment is, how it manifests for you - wanting and needing, fear of losing etc - then turn within and try and realise that you were born whole and will die whole.  You’re not actually lacking anything.  It’s just so damn hard seeing that.  I’m still on that journey.

I felt this way when I found a relationship after being single for a long time. I thought my problems would be solved, life would be wonderful, he would do “for” me, and I would find eternal happiness and joy... boy, was I wrong. The first time something happened and he didn’t step up to help - he expected me to take care of it - I was like WTF? The first day that I was upset and he said, “I’m really sorry you are upset, now what’s for dinner...” I was like WTF? It didn’t take me long to realize that while this relationship brought me joy and happiness, he was not responsible for the cooking, cleaning, dealing with my problems, making me feel happy when I am feeling down.. or anything else. That’s my responsibility. Just as, although I “do” things for him to make his life easier and better, as any good partner does, he is still responsible for himself at the end of the day. So yeah, big learning about healthy relationships... much easier to turn away and say “I’m not getting what I need at home, maybe this guy will give me that feeling...” And I say that respecting the fact that relationships are hard, and that they can really wear you down when both partners are not engaged. 

BTW, heaven help the man who orders for me at a restaurant. Sure, he can pick the wine and I expect him to pick up the cheque on Valentine’s Day...  But, having a man take control, to care for me and order my meal (among other things) is not my definition of love... That’s a woman who has abdicated her own sense of self. That’s a woman who wants to live the fantasy. To each their own, and yes, it’s lovely when someone does something kind and generous once in a while, this doesn’t seem like real life, real relationships - to me. Not after the early dating phase, at least... maybe on Valentine’s Day.

Edited December 1, 2020 by BaileyB

[pepperbird2]

op,

whatever you do, please do not let this man impact your self esteem. he's just not worth it.

[kconleyk]

On 11/30/2020 at 4:23 PM, SS2855 said:

This may be more a rhetorical question and one that nobody here can tell me for sure, but this is what is killing me: Things quasi-ended a couple weeks ago, officially, with a last message about a week ago that included song lyrics about “wanting it to be me and you”.  Since then just one or two exchanges that were in the friend zone. Why I say quasi-ended is that I finally asked him direct about us as I had felt more push than pull, and I felt like we had a grown up conversation where we both said due to Covid what are we even doing if we can’t see each other and he’s staying in his marriage. It was a great long talk and somehow I hung up feeling good about everything. He said his feelings and ours for each other were getting dangerously strong and thinking the universe was sending a clear sign to stop before something awful (d-day) happens. He also said he wants to preserve as he sees me a huge part of both his professional and personal life and can we salvage at this point. Again I left the conversation feeling good. Of course since time has passed we’ve had very little contact (I guess as expected) and as of recent just a generic happy thanksgiving text and then another saying he was struggling with family issues and a little depression which is not usual for him (has spoken to me about family issues in the past). So I suppose in the end nothing to figure out- I’m simply struggling with this and also angry how he clearly can just end things and move on so easily it seems after 2 years of telling me very regularly how much he loved me and how I mean everything to him. I know this is it but maybe I wished for it to be harder for him then just, well this. He’s very pragmatic so I’m not surprised but genuinely heartbroken and wondering if he was just able to stop feeling (though he says otherwise) so quickly. Could I have been that compartmentalized in his brain and heart where he just naturally fell out of love or could turn off his feelings? It’s weird but I guess I just wish I knew if he was struggling with this like I am. We work together so it’s likely I’ll hear from him this week but don’t think I have it in me for a conversation even if work related. And for the record... I should have listened and ended this solely on my terms.

I am literally struggling with this exact same issue right now, and trying to figure out if anything she ever told me was true.   I felt higher than I ever have in my life with her, and she told me her marriage was over, only to end it one day saying she isn't sure what will happen that she doesn't have a crystal ball.    I haven't contacted her in two days and I miss her hardcore right now.

I hope you get some peace.

[SS2855]

Thanks so much everyone. This is my first week (and past weekend so far) of no communication. I feel bad because I didn’t take his call today as I know he is trying to get us back to “ close friends” and while I thought last week I could be on board with it, turns out I can’t. I found out from a mutual colleague that he put his house on the market :(. I knew he was thinking about it but hadn’t flat out decide. I’m hurt for obvious reasons, and I imagine he did not come right out and tell me because it’s not really something you gleefully tell your ex- AP. I am wanting to ignore him now but I may have to just ask he let me be for time to myself- that unless it’s work related which he can email me for- I need to keep it to that. Again I feel bad because last week we talked and in my heart I was thinking “ok you can do this friendship thing” but it’s too hard. If I entertain the friendship then what am I gonna do? Say “omg so tell me all about your new home and life together with your wife and family how great!”. I’m just not a robot so can’t casually go back to friendship as that entails sharing details of life- vacations, plans etc. a life I’m not a part of. I feel pretty strong but only if I can avoid speaking with him. When I do I can’t handle hearing about his life plans because it’s as if someone screaming to me in my ear that I didn’t matter enough to be part of it (I know more complex that that simply but that’s what it feels like). 

[BaileyB]

I honestly don’t know why you are beating yourself up for the fact that you can not be “friends” with the guy.

For him to even ask you to continue a friendship when he has chosen to stay with his wife is very, very selfish. For you to somehow equate the fact that you find it difficult to maintain contact with the man while he moves forward with his wife as some kind of personal failure... well, that is your choice.... but it’s not true.

Self care and self preservation should be your focus right now. His feelings and his needs are not your concern... He is a big boy, he can take care of himself. Don’t tie yourself in knots for a man who thinks only about himself.

Edited December 9, 2020 by BaileyB

[SS2855]

4 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I honestly don’t know why you are beating yourself up for the fact that you can not be “friends” with the guy.

For him to even ask you to continue a friendship when he has chosen to stay with his wife is very, very selfish. For you to somehow equate the fact that you find it difficult to maintain contact with the man while he moves forward with his wife as some kind of person failure... well, that’s just not true.

Self care and self preservation should be your focus right now. His feelings and his needs are not your concern... He is a big boy, he can take care of himself. He is not your responsibility. Don’t tie yourself in knots for a man who thinks primarily about himself.

Thank you @BaileyB I wish even for me that I could still have him in my life as a friend but I notice it’s just too much because it would entail me having to continue the lie on a whole other plane. A lie that I can have a conversation with him and laugh with him like we used to knowing that I’d have to pretend to be happy for his journey - and while some might say a true friend would do that (?) I’m just not capable of it without making myself feel terrible. I would rather chance this to me feeling better and healed at some point (I hope) vs. pretending like I can turn off the switch. Of course this part of me inside says to keep it super casual (the friendship) as I care about him so much but it’s too much. Is the “right” thing to do not to have contact unless needed for work and just find peace with that? Or am I throwing away a close relationship that I still in my heart want. Even if just that piece of him?

[BaileyB]

You can not have a friendship with this man... You want more than a friendship with him, he is not able to give you what you want. To maintain contact with this man when you know that you want more and he is building a life with his wife and family is self abusive - why would you ever do that to yourself!!

It brings to mind the old slapstick comedy act - you know, when someone take your hand and starts hitting you on the head... When you say “Ouch! That really hurts” they say - “Well, then why you do keep hitting yourself on the head?”

Stop hitting yourself on the head!!!!

Take some time away from this man and you will start to see how dysfunctional and unhealthy this has been for you. This is not a friendship that you want to keep - close friends, people who love each other, don’t hurt each other in the way he has hurt you!! 

I would treat acquaintances, people I meet on the street, with more kindness and respect than this man has shown you. 

I don’t say this to be unkind, I say this because I want you to take a step back and take a different perspective. There is nothing so special about this lying, cheat of a man that should ever be worth your self-esteem, happiness, peace of mind, and self respect. 

Tell him to leave you alone. And then, get busy healing yourself and creating a better life for yourself! Enough already, how much more time are you going to waste on a man who has chosen another woman? 

Edited December 9, 2020 by BaileyB

[SS2855]

15 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I would treat acquaintances, people I meet on the street, with more kindness and respect than this man has shown you. 

@BaileyB maybe this is what I’m struggling with. Has he really done wrong by me knowing that he never said he would leave to be with me and I was a willing participant here? Sure lots of I love yous and probably heat of the moment messages that put me thinking maybe this could be, but genuinely what could I really say in regard to why I should be angry and how he has treated me? Trust me I wish I had good reason because I do feel so angry at him but don’t feel I have much reason to you know?

[BaileyB]

35 minutes ago, SS2855 said:

@BaileyB maybe this is what I’m struggling with. Has he really done wrong by me knowing that he never said he would leave to be with me and I was a willing participant here? Sure lots of I love yous and probably heat of the moment messages that put me thinking maybe this could be, but genuinely what could I really say in regard to why I should be angry and how he has treated me?

SS2855, I think what you are saying is that you were a volunteer, not a victim. And while that is true, you stayed when you shouldn’t have stayed... He also didn’t discourage you from staying. He is the person who is unavailable, he is the person who has a responsibility to his wife, he is the person who has made another decision... and yet, he is the person who says he wants to stay friends. He is the person who is pursuing at the moment, when it is quite clear that he is otherwise committed. 

With kindness, if he cared for you or respected you in any way, he would have said very early on... “Look, I’m really flattered, but I’m married.” He would have turned you away before this even got started. He didn’t do that. 

My opinion - you both have responsibility here. But, if you are expecting him to do right by you, to care enough for your well being to say “I know this is hard for you, I don’t think we can be friends...” you will be waiting for a really long time. He is pursuing his own personal self interests, as he has done along... you just haven’t been as aware of this because his personal self interest aligned with your interest in having a relationship with him. 

No, the only person who should have your own best interest at heart is you. It is your responsibility to make good decisions for you, because if you fail to do that, you will be the person to suffer... You are starting to understand that... but you sabotage yourself, by doing things like second guessing whether you are making the wrong decision, not being fair to him, not giving yourself the opportunity if there is even a glimmer of hope... Don’t do that - believe me when I say that you are making the right decision to walk away. Trust yourself, you know what you need to do. Again, if you don’t take care of yourself... who will?

 

Edited December 9, 2020 by BaileyB

[mark clemson]

3 hours ago, SS2855 said:

 I was thinking “ok you can do this friendship thing” but it’s too hard.

Correct, attempting to be friends will probably feel like a form of torture for you and mostly be that.

If he moves out of town, that will be the best thing for you IMO. Pain in the ST, but much better in the LT and faster to reach that better as well.

[Wiseman2]

On 11/30/2020 at 4:23 PM, SS2855 said:

.. Could I have been that compartmentalized in his brain and heart 

Absolutely. That's how affairs work.

[SS2855]

11 hours ago, mark clemson said:

If he moves out of town, that will be the best thing for you IMO. Pain in the ST, but much better in the LT and faster to reach that better as well.

I’m so hoping that is the case. I may still see him from time to time with work things but definitely not very often. I’m already struggling with just seeing the name on emails but I’m hopeful that this will be easier in the long run like you said, and faster to move on.

[SS2855]

13 hours ago, BaileyB said:

SS2855, I think what you are saying is that you were a volunteer, not a victim. And while that is true, you stayed when you shouldn’t have stayed... He also didn’t discourage you from staying. He is the person who is unavailable, he is the person who has a responsibility to his wife, he is the person who has made another decision... and yet, he is the person who says he wants to stay friends. He is the person who is pursuing at the moment, when it is quite clear that he is otherwise committed. 

With kindness, if he cared for you or respected you in any way, he would have said very early on... “Look, I’m really flattered, but I’m married.” He would have turned you away before this even got started. He didn’t do that. 

My opinion - you both have responsibility here. But, if you are expecting him to do right by you, to care enough for your well being to say “I know this is hard for you, I don’t think we can be friends...” you will be waiting for a really long time. He is pursuing his own personal self interests, as he has done along... you just haven’t been as aware of this because his personal self interest aligned with your interest in having a relationship with him. 

No, the only person who should have your own best interest at heart is you. It is your responsibility to make good decisions for you, because if you fail to do that, you will be the person to suffer... You are starting to understand that... but you sabotage yourself, by doing things like second guessing whether you are making the wrong decision, not being fair to him, not giving yourself the opportunity if there is even a glimmer of hope... Don’t do that - believe me when I say that you are making the right decision to walk away. Trust yourself, you know what you need to do. Again, if you don’t take care of yourself... who will?

 

You are right @BaileyB. Do you think a woman can get to that place eventually where she feels indifferent, or loses all feelings, for an ex-AP? I get scared that I won’t be able to naturally fall out of love if he’s still mildly in my life via work (contractually we both are obligated to our employer at least for next 2 years). Perhaps as I build up the self and work to move on in my own personal life then I’ll be able to heal even if with a touch of his presence still around. Do you think it’s possible? Again will likely not have to see him most of the year just here and there on emails. 

[BaileyB]

9 minutes ago, SS2855 said:

Perhaps as I build up the self and work to move on in my own personal life then I’ll be able to heal even if with a touch of his presence still around.

That depends on you, and how strong a boundary you draw with this man...

If it was me, I would accept work related, on topic emails only. No calls, no visits, no discussion about his home life. And, If I ever felt the desire to revisit the past, I would conjure up a vision of this man with his wife/children and remind myself that he chose another woman. For me, that would be enough kill any nostalgic “feelings” that may remain...

Have you ever spoken with a counsellor SS2855?

[Bittersweetie]

14 hours ago, BaileyB said:

No, the only person who should have your own best interest at heart is you. It is your responsibility to make good decisions for you, because if you fail to do that, you will be the person to suffer... You are starting to understand that... but you sabotage yourself, by doing things like second guessing whether you are making the wrong decision, not being fair to him, not giving yourself the opportunity if there is even a glimmer of hope... Don’t do that - believe me when I say that you are making the right decision to walk away. Trust yourself, you know what you need to do. Again, if you don’t take care of yourself... who will?

I've been struggling lately with some stuff, and my husband said to me last night: There's a reason they tell you on the airplane to put your own mask on first. You have to take care of yourself first in order to be healthy for others. Bailey has some good points here.

And yes, you can get to indifference. In my case xAP was gone after d-day. I never have seen or spoke with him. Yet it was difficult, despite the fact I was going through the aftermath of a d-day, to get him out of my head. I just kept moving forward with (as my kid's teacher says) retraining my brain. I didn't focus on the "good" times, I focused on the negatives. Which, in turn, took away anything I saw with the rose-colored glasses. And with time, any feelings or thoughts I had for xAP faded away and turned into indifference. Was it easy? No, especially at first, but it was worth it.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Bittersweetie

[SS2855]

1 hour ago, BaileyB said:

If I ever felt the desire to revisit the past, I would conjure up a vision of this man with his wife/children and remind myself that he chose another woman. For me, that would be enough kill any nostalgic “feelings” that may remain...

This I find has worked wonders for when I start missing him or even so much as think about reaching out. I’ve used this in the past too- every time I find myself pining I think that at this moment he could easily be sleeping with his wife, planning their next vacation, house hunting (as I recently learned) and other stuff that does not involve me. That immediately pulls me back to reality and almost to a place of disdain - I feel like I want to even punish him by cutting off all unnecessary contact because while I achingly miss him, why should he get doses of me to keep him happy and content with his current life? I don’t want to serve that purpose even if not intentional. 
I’m searching now for a therapist. A coupe I’ve reached out to are booked but trying again today.