Is it REALLY More Selfish to Have an Affair vs. Divorcing?

[mark clemson]

1 hour ago, serial muse said:

Both things can be deeply traumatic, and one just shouldn't assume that either is worse. I think that's probably the takeaway here. 

I think that's a fair point.

[BaileyB]

On 11/30/2020 at 6:24 PM, mark clemson said:

However, I wonder if, speaking generally, it's REALLY more selfish than divorcing, at least from the perspective of the cheater.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, did it really fall. That’s basically what you are asking.

I would prefer to know. I can deal with divorce. I can not deal with is a selfish and dishonest spouse making life decisions for me and my children - without my knowledge or consent. 

I will just never understand the rationalization that it is a “caring act”  to keep this truth from the person they have vowed to love, honour, and cherish. If there is someone else in my marriage, I have a right to know. Again, if one is concerned for their spouse and their family, the best option is not to engage in the behavior that has the potential to cause financial and emotional pain. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by BaileyB

[KaterinaVon]

On 12/2/2020 at 8:04 AM, mark clemson said:

 Hmm. You're entitled to your opinion of course. To me vows are not that big a deal. Even if they were, I'm not seeing actual logic here.

Divorce IS breaking a vow. "Till death do us part." So you're breaking one too.

You can break one vow and permanently end the marriage and traumatize your spouse, disrupt their life, etc.

Or you can break a different vow, and, while taking a risk, if successful minimize trauma and disruption.

Both are selfish, but I don't see a logical reason given why cheating is MORE selfish.

 

 

You seem to be minimizing divorce. As I pointed out it IS breaking a vow. It can be HIGHLY painful and disruptive. "Giving both of you an opportunity" is a matter of perspective, we certainly get plenty of posts here showing significant distress, in some cases it certainly appears on a par with BSs, with people wondering how they got blindsided, what to do now, etc.

You talk about morals and integrity, but there are certainly people who tolerate cheating spouses rather than divorcing due to their morals - for example, they don't want to divorce due to their religious views. Slapping a unilateral divorce on people like that isn't exactly a kind thing to do. Nor is walking away e.g. when your spouse develops a chronic illness. What "opportunity" has one given them? The opportunity to live out their days alone while you go date other folks?

I think for some divorce, not cheating, is seen as the ultimate backstab. I'll concede that cheating probably isn't too far down the list.

 

, “well, divorce is traumatizing, and it’s breaking a vow  cheating behind their back is better because they don’t know they are being deceived and they can continue to live their life normally while I selfishly meet my needs elsewhere both are breaking vows so why not do what’s best for ME”

You can talk yourself into a lot of wrong with that mindset.

Divorce = Honesty, your partner being aware you want out, you owe them this much honesty. If they can’t cope you can be there to help them out, but at least they are in the know.

Affair = Manipulation, lies, betrayal, giving someone else attention meant for your spouse. 
 

It’s more traumatizing finding out your partner had affairs and lied to your face for years, and that the reason your marriage wasn’t working well was because the attention they should have been giving to their spouse they spent on someone else. Divorce is traumatizing too because it’s the ending of something, but it also leaves the door open for the beginning of something else.

Edited December 5, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed personal attack

[Fletch Lives]

On 11/30/2020 at 7:24 PM, mark clemson said:

IF it is undiscovered, which IS after all the intent in most cases, no one's life is severely disrupted.

- this is what most cheaters think, that they won't get caught. But most do get caught.

Affairs often lead to divorce.

Sure, if you are lucky and you don't get caught, everything will be okay. But if you are so lucky, why have you never won the lotto and become a millionaire?

[KaterinaVon]

On 12/2/2020 at 8:32 AM, Fletch Lives said:

- this is what most cheaters think, that they won't get caught. But most do get caught.

Affairs often lead to divorce.

Sure, if you are lucky and you don't get caught, everything will be okay. But if you are so lucky, why have you never won the lotto and become a millionaire?

This is what you call a [redacted]. He doesn’t want his wife having sex or meeting another man she can be happy with, but he wants to cheat behind her back because that’s what he needs to feel happy in the marriage, but in his mind if wifey doesn’t know then what’s the harm ?  Why should she be allowed to meet a man that can do it better for her ? Divorce is not an option No sir, she can’t have better, she’s stuck with him, he “spares” her by lying to her about his extramarital affairs. That’s the best he feels she deserves. 
 

There’s serious things wrong with this picture.
 

It scares me to think that’s the mentality of a guy I might marry in the future. Yikes. 

Edited December 5, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed profanity

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

 To me vows are not that big a deal.

Divorce IS breaking a vow. "Till death do us part." So you're breaking one too.

You can break one vow and permanently end the marriage and traumatize your spouse, disrupt their life, etc.

Or you can break a different vow, and, while taking a risk, if successful minimize trauma and disruption.

In one sentence, you say vows aren’t that big of a deal. And in the next, you say that the BS is no better than the unfaithful partner by filing for divorce. I believe that is called deflection - it’s certainly not a reasonable argument.

Respectfully, one loses the right to pass blame on the BS spouse when they file for divorce for “breaking their vow” when they have forever altered/damaged the marriage by being unfaithful.
 
That’s not “breaking a vow.” That’s a natural consequence. It is an entirely reasonable and justifiable response when one spouse has made a unilateral decision to put the BS health and the stability of the marriage and the family at risk by cheating. The decision to divorce could be considered for the betrayed spouse, self protection. 

You can continue to argue, as you have done so before, that it is somehow an acceptable risk to take... that somehow, you are acting in the best interest of your spouse if you cheat on that person and then lie about it... I’m not buying it. It is nothing more than an attempted justification for selfish, dishonest, and hurtful decisions.... 

Edited December 2, 2020 by BaileyB

[Milly May June]

Is it more selfish to have an affair or to divorce? 

I would say that when you have an affair you act from a position of selfishness and entitlement. This selfishness benefits only yourself.

If you divorce you act from a position of bravery. It might be a selfish decision to divorce that will most likely affect your spouce but it is a brave choice that also brings the opprtunity for both parties in the marriage to find happiness and live an authentic life. That is why i view divorce as less selfish. 

 

[Ellener]

6 hours ago, Starswillshine said:

The only case I could potentially think of would be if... your spouse is in a coma/vegetative state and has been for years and there is no possibility of recovery.

I met a lady a few years ago whose husband had severe dementia. He did not know her and was well looked after in a nursing home, she visited most days to check on him. But she had also started another relationship, she said if she put things on hold until her husband died she would have missed out on her own retirement. I understood completely. 

 

[pepperbird2]

One thing I've seen and even heard recommended is cheating while presetting an "innocent" facade their spouse, making them believe they have a lifetime commitment.
Meanwhile, the WS is secretly planning to fly as soon as the kids are grown. They keep their BS in the dark.
That is so selfish!
I know there's lots who really don't want to hurt their husband or wife, but they are no longer happy. What I don't understand is why they think cheating will help. If the BS finds out, a split that might otherwise have been at least somewhat civil may well turn into a huge disaster.

[Amethyst68]

3 hours ago, mark clemson said:

 Hmm. You're entitled to your opinion of course. To me vows are not that big a deal. Even if they were, I'm not seeing actual logic here.

Divorce IS breaking a vow. "Till death do us part." So you're breaking one too.

You can break one vow and permanently end the marriage and traumatize your spouse, disrupt their life, etc.

Or you can break a different vow, and, while taking a risk, if successful minimize trauma and disruption.

Both are selfish, but I don't see a logical reason given why cheating is MORE selfish.

 

 

You seem to be minimizing divorce. As I pointed out it IS breaking a vow. It can be HIGHLY painful and disruptive. "Giving both of you an opportunity" is a matter of perspective, we certainly get plenty of posts here showing significant distress, in some cases it certainly appears on a par with BSs, with people wondering how they got blindsided, what to do now, etc.

You talk about morals and integrity, but there are certainly people who tolerate cheating spouses rather than divorcing due to their morals - for example, they don't want to divorce due to their religious views. Slapping a unilateral divorce on people like that isn't exactly a kind thing to do. Nor is walking away e.g. when your spouse develops a chronic illness. What "opportunity" has one given them? The opportunity to live out their days alone while you go date other folks?

I think for some divorce, not cheating, is seen as the ultimate backstab. I'll concede that cheating probably isn't too far down the list.

Is this truly how you feel or are you playing devil's advocate? 

Are you saying if it was your wife cheating you wouldn't want to know or it wouldn't be a big deal because it's not a vow that's important in the grand scheme of things? 

 

One final thing about HPV, there is no test for men (if dormant) so the only way people know about it is disclosure.

[central]

IF I were reasonably happy in the relationship and there weren't any noticeable changes for the worse ( i.e., still affectionate, still having sex, still doing things together, etc.), I would not want to know about an affair.  I may have an unusual perspective, since we've had an open marriage for 20 years (some boundaries, mostly about keeping each other informed, and - rarely used - option to veto someone).  Even when we've had another lover for years, it hasn't diminished our relationship, and often helped enhance our own intimacy.  So it is entirely possible to have other lovers without negative impacts.  IMO, the problems come from lying and deception - which our agreement avoids.  If the lying and deception are never discovered, and there is no significant impact on the primary relationship, then it's possible that no harm is done - unless discovered.  As discussed earlier, probably half - and up to 85% - of affairs stay hidden, never to be discovered or revealed.  I'm not condoning affairs, nor advocating for open relationships if that's not your thing.  I'm just saying that in the majority of such scenarios there can be little harm done.

[Timshel]

17 hours ago, serial muse said:

Most people know something is very very wrong, although they don't quite know what and can't get a straight answer about it (until they ultimately do, and that I think is uncontroversially severely disruptive).

Yes, it's unlikely that a betrayed spouse has no inclination that something is off/wrong. That they are being lied to and invalidated is emotionally abusive.

1 hour ago, Milly May June said:

If you divorce you act from a position of bravery.

 

It is very brave to tell the truth knowing that there will be consequences. When I was separated from my ex husband and waiting for the divorce to become final, I met a man, we dated, fell in love and later married. I suppose that I could have kept my mouth shut; it was only a matter of a judges' stamp. I did not, I told my ex husband the truth, that I was dating and in love and took the fall out that came with it. He was hoping to rekindle and for respect as the father of my children, decency and yep, flat out bravery; he would not be deceived on my conscience.

I can't imagine doing that to him while we were living as husband and wife.

31 minutes ago, Amethyst68 said:

Is this truly how you feel or are you playing devil's advocate? 

 

 So what's up with you Mark? Is this a rhetorical/analytical question? It seems like 'it's best to lie in order to not hurt them' gas lighting/cake eating 101.

17 hours ago, serial muse said:

 

 

[notbroken]

An affair is much worse.   The dishonesty, lying, and not devoting yourself truly to one person weakens the marriage - even if they don't find out.  At least with divorce the person knows the truth and can move on.   With an affair, they are living a lie and wonder why their marriage isn't better.   

Do the right thing.  If you want to cheat, just divorce first.  Quit making excuses to justify what you are doing.   You aren't cheating out of an idea it is better for your spouse.  

[mark clemson]

3 hours ago, BaileyB said:

In one sentence, you say vows aren’t that big of a deal. And in the next, you say that the BS is no better than the unfaithful partner by filing for divorce. I believe that is called deflection - it’s certainly not a reasonable argument.

Actually, I was arguing in terms the PP I was responding to had set (vows). They pointed out that cheating is breaking a vow, but ignored the fact that divorce is as well. I'm actually not certain what you mean by deflection, but I do think that specifically in terms of vows broken that the divorcing person is actually WORSE than the cheater (or could reasonably seen as such) because they are breaking a more significant (IMO the most significant) vow - which is about staying married.

All that is just arguing in terms of vows, though. As I said, they are not something I put much stock in, so I'm not trying to make a big deal out of that. I was just responding to the PP and their omission, which they seemed to put forward as a core issue.

 

3 hours ago, BaileyB said:

Respectfully, one loses the right to pass blame on the BS spouse when they file for divorce for “breaking their vow” when they have forever altered/damaged the marriage by being unfaithful. That’s not “breaking a vow.” That’s a natural consequence. It is an entirely reasonable and justifiable response when one spouse has made a unilateral decision to put the BS health and the stability of the marriage and the family at risk by cheating. The decision to divorce could be considered for the betrayed spouse, self protection.

That's actually off topic for this thread. I DO agree with the idea that one wouldn't realistically or reasonably expect/demand a person to stay married after their partner cheated. But overall that's a discussion for another thread.

 

3 hours ago, BaileyB said:

You can continue to argue, as you have done so before, that it is somehow an acceptable risk to take... that somehow, you are acting in the best interest of your spouse if you cheat on that person and then lie about it... I’m not buying it. It is nothing more than an attempted justification for selfish, dishonest, and hurtful decisions.... 

Ok, and again you're entitled to your view. I would note that divorce is also a selfish and hurtful decision, and the way it's sometimes actually practiced (not letting the spouse know while they make preparations) is dishonest as well.

Edited December 2, 2020 by mark clemson

[mark clemson]

4 hours ago, BaileyB said:

I will just never understand the rationalization that it is a “caring act”  to keep this truth from the person they have vowed to love, honour, and cherish. If there is someone else in my marriage, I have a right to know. Again, if one is concerned for their spouse and their family, the best option is not to engage in the behavior that has the potential to cause financial and emotional pain. 

Fair enough, but again divorce also causes those kinds of pain.

Ideally (and life is rarely ideal) yes, of course you'd want to know either about an affair OR a partner's intent to divorce. Ideally you'd never want to do either because you were so happy in the marriage your entire life, but as we all know that's not always reality.

[mark clemson]

4 hours ago, KaterinaVon said:

“well, divorce is traumatizing, and it’s breaking a vow  cheating behind their back is better because they don’t know they are being deceived and they can continue to live their life normally while I selfishly meet my needs elsewhere both are breaking vows so why not do what’s best for ME”

You can talk yourself into a lot of wrong with that mindset.

Perhaps, but that doesn't make it not true, or at least not a reasonable viewpoint, given how traumatic divorce can be.

 

4 hours ago, KaterinaVon said:

Divorce = Honesty, your partner being aware you want out, you owe them this much honesty. If they can’t cope you can be there to help them out, but at least they are in the know.

Affair = Manipulation, lies, betrayal, giving someone else attention meant for your spouse. 
 

It’s more traumatizing finding out your partner had affairs and lied to your face for years, and that the reason your marriage wasn’t working well was because the attention they should have been giving to their spouse they spent on someone else. Divorce is traumatizing too because it’s the ending of something, but it also leaves the door open for the beginning of something else.

Hmm. First off divorce may or may not be done "honestly" in the sense that the spouse is given reasonable forewarning/time to prepare or attempt to change things. Second this thread is NOT trying to claim cheating is honest (that would be ridiculous IMO). It IS however asking whether cheating is ACTUALLY more selfish than divorcing. This seems to be a matter of opinion.

 

[mark clemson]

4 hours ago, Fletch Lives said:

- this is what most cheaters think, that they won't get caught. But most do get caught.

Affairs often lead to divorce.

Thanks for responding. PP's seemed to think getting caught was about 50/50. I think you're right about the second point, although %s are probably not know.

[mark clemson]

9 hours ago, Starswillshine said:

The flaw in this thinking is that if the WS is unhappy, that an AP would make him/her happy. The fact is, happiness comes from within, and searching for it in someone else is weak. If you are unhappy with your spouse, discuss it, give honest truth of how you feel within the marriage. Give him/her a chance to make it right. And YOU have to give it an honest try and put in the effort as well (many only push their unhappiness onto their spouse without seeing the ways they, themselves, are contributing to the unhappiness of the home/marriage). If it does not happen, then seek divorce.

Thanks for responding. I DO think you're right about happiness generally. However at the risk of making platitudes - external circumstances, including a problematic partner CAN impact your normal internal happiness significantly.

This thread isn't about honesty although many folks seem to be making it about that. It's about selfishness.

How's this: I am honest with my spouse and the issues in the marriage. He/she can't or isn't willing to change, won't tolerate an open marriage, but strongly wants to stay married anyhow.

People sometimes take their spouse "for granted," so I don't think this sort of scenario is actually that uncommon or farfetched. Is it then selfish to leave? Or give them what they want and stay (but meet one's needs partly via an affair).

(I do also think that in a divorce scenario the part about opening up to the partner about the issues and reaching an agreement appears to get skipped, or at least if the decision to divorce is made, it isn't actually expressed to the partner until concrete plans are made. Sometimes people are more honest, but as above, people don't always act ideally.)

[mark clemson]

3 hours ago, Milly May June said:

If you divorce you act from a position of bravery. It might be a selfish decision to divorce that will most likely affect your spouce but it is a brave choice that also brings the opprtunity for both parties in the marriage to find happiness and live an authentic life. That is why i view divorce as less selfish.

Thanks for responding, and you certainly have a cogent view. I addressed the opportunity issue several posts up. It's certainly true that sometimes it could be realistically viewed as that, even when it wasn't desired by the other partner. You seem to be conceding that divorce is (sometimes) selfish as well, which is reasonable I think.

[mark clemson]

2 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

One thing I've seen and even heard recommended is cheating while presetting an "innocent" facade their spouse, making them believe they have a lifetime commitment.
Meanwhile, the WS is secretly planning to fly as soon as the kids are grown. They keep their BS in the dark.

I think THIS is very true and a good point. Certainly deliberate monkeybranching/shopping for a new partner type affairs are NOT less selfish than simply divorcing, since that's the end goal.

[KaterinaVon]

14 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Perhaps, but that doesn't make it not true, or at least not a reasonable viewpoint, given how traumatic divorce can be.

 

Hmm. First off divorce may or may not be done "honestly" in the sense that the spouse is given reasonable forewarning/time to prepare or attempt to change things. Second this thread is NOT trying to claim cheating is honest (that would be ridiculous IMO). It IS however asking whether cheating is ACTUALLY more selfish than divorcing. This seems to be a matter of opinion.

 

I think we are arguing semantics 

Divorce is about setting BOTH people free whether or not the other person knows the divorce was coming, is still more honest than cheating. You say you don’t dispute cheating as being dishonest so why would you think cheating isn’t as bad as divorce ? 
 

Affair is about betrayal, lies, manipulation, that’s obviously more selfish than setting you both free with a divorce. 
 

If you are married, do right by your partner or don’t bother, means be loyal or divorce. 
 

It’s evil to betray your spouse. Just because you haven’t been caught doesn’t mean you’re not selfish. 

[mark clemson]

It's not semantics, it's the OP question.

I'm not trying to argue that affairs are honest. People have brought their own honesty arguments to bash cheating but in some cases disregarded the actual point of the OP.

5 minutes ago, KaterinaVon said:

It’s evil to betray your spouse. Just because you haven’t been caught doesn’t mean you’re not selfish. 

This is one case where evil is in the eye of the beholder, since there are those who feel divorce is MORE evil and more of a betrayal than infidelity and/or simply won't permit it.

The question isn't whether cheating is selfish, it's whether it's actually MORE selfish than unilaterally divorcing. Opinions seem to vary on that, and for some the specific circumstances play a big role in that question.

[Allupinnit]

I see threads in the OW/OM section regarding leaving as soon as the kids are gone, and I feel so badly for the BS who is going about their merry way while their life partner is secretly planning to abandon them once their "responsibilities" are realized.  One poster even mentioned the MM telling her he is going to sleep with his wife, whilst they plan their life together in the next year when the kids leave.  I can't think of anything more selfish than that. 

[KaterinaVon]

12 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Thanks for responding. I DO think you're right about happiness generally. However at the risk of making platitudes - external circumstances, including a problematic partner CAN impact your normal internal happiness significantly.

This thread isn't about honesty although many folks seem to be making it about that. It's about selfishness.

How's this: I am honest with my spouse and the issues in the marriage. He/she can't or isn't willing to change, won't tolerate an open marriage, but strongly wants to stay married anyhow.

People sometimes take their spouse "for granted," so I don't think this sort of scenario is actually that uncommon or farfetched. Is it then selfish to leave? Or give them what they want and stay (but meet one's needs partly via an affair).

(I do also think that in a divorce scenario the part about opening up to the partner about the issues and reaching an agreement appears to get skipped, or at least if the decision to divorce is made, it isn't actually expressed to the partner until concrete plans are made. Sometimes people are more honest, but as above, people don't always act ideally.)

Not being honest IS selfish, because you aren’t honest in order to cover your butt. When you do something your partner doesn’t want you to do and you do it anyways because they won’t find out and you want to, you are doing it for YOU so it’s selfish. 
 

If you want affection and your partner can’t be bothered with it, then you leave and service them divorce papers, otherwise you’re living a double life that only serves you. 
 

Some people aren’t affectionate, those people need to be with someone that thinks like them too, a divorce will allow them to find someone else. 
 

otherwise you are at an impasse, they can’t deny you something you need and then tell you you can’t divorce or find it elsewhere, that’s controlling, selfish and manipulative and if you cheat, lie and stay is “two wrongs don’t make a right” 

 

You are just NOT compatible and that’s a reason for divorce. 

[mark clemson]

2 hours ago, Amethyst68 said:

Is this truly how you feel or are you playing devil's advocate?

1 hour ago, Timshel said:

 So what's up with you Mark? Is this a rhetorical/analytical question?

Thank you for your concern. It IS an analytical question. However, I feel there is SOME truth to the notion that divorce is also selfish, sometimes QUITE so.

What prompted it is how frequently I read folks proclaiming "oh they're so selfish cheating etc", yet when folks ask about divorcing it's rare. This seems one-sided to me, since divorcing actually IS selfish too. One can (reasonably IMO) contrast how selfish the cheater is being by cheating with how selfish they would be being if they just divorced instead. IMO it's a fair point to be made. Sure they were selfish to cheat - but how selfish would they have been to just force a divorce on their spouse and kids.

 

Will try to BBL to address/discuss some additional responses.