Is it REALLY More Selfish to Have an Affair vs. Divorcing?

[BaileyB]

This discussion about hypothetical situations is like trying to nail jello to a tree... 😂

Edited December 4, 2020 by BaileyB

[vla1120]

I did not read ALL the posts (but I eventually will), however, I wanted to add that I stayed for 18 years after my husband cheated - trying to work on my marriage (all one sided, unfortunately.) Perhaps if he had cheated with a stranger, we might have been able to get past the cheating and keep our family intact. However, the fact that he didn't even go outside our circle of friends to cheat was a selfishness that was almost diabolical, in my opinion (on both of their parts.) My bottom line is that not everyone feels the need to cheat. Some people take their marriage vows very seriously. If you are a person who is prone to cheat, don't get married! That is the most unselfish thing someone can do, in my opinion.

[mark clemson]

1 hour ago, Starswillshine said:

 Not exactly.... Somehow, I was able to be with someone who was a much better, all the way around, man to me than my husband ever was. So in some ways, you can pat yourself on the back and say his affair was a great thing... because I divorced his rear and found better. 

Fair enough. It's reasonably close, and true that attractiveness can be subjective. It sounds like your story hasn't really reached it's conclusion yet (BF, not married). Congratulations on making the best of a difficult situation.

 

1 hour ago, Starswillshine said:

Yes, I am very aware of your very extreme scenarios you have used to MAYBE justify an affair.

 

Excuse me - YOU are the one who asked me to create this extreme scenario to support a point that ISN'T the one I've been trying to make. Now you criticize me for arguing for it reasonably well?!?  Please...

I'll concede I've done this in the past as well, but generally it is to illustrate a point where one-sided generalizations are being made and stated as if they are facts.

[Starswillshine]

14 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Fair enough. It's reasonably close, and true that attractiveness can be subjective. It sounds like your story hasn't really reached it's conclusion yet (BF, not married). Congratulations on making the best of a difficult situation

Yes. It is true that my story is not over. No one's story is over until the lights go out. There is a very specific reason we are not married yet which has nothing to do with the desire. But even if we do not, and even if we decide that we are better apart, my life will be fine. I can and will be fine on my own. 

The power of giving someone a choice in their life is sometimes they can rise out of the ashes and make it so much better than it ever would have been. Sometimes, it is the push to get life on track. 

Though I know you said this wasn't about you, but you have described your wife in the past like this (if memory serves me correctly). You would be doing her a favor over the pity you give her. She might surprise you.... abd then you might actually kick yourself in the butt afterwards. 

[mark clemson]

Personal Anecdote:

I guess I'll share the personal anecdote I alluded to earlier, so we can get the "extreme scenarios" over with. I will note that this is NOT hypothetical, but a real person I actually knew, whose experience is part of what prompted this thread.

As it so happens I knew a woman in her late 30's with a teenage daughter. She had developed a crippling condition similar to ALS. She was wheelchair bound and nearly blind. The Ex husband had divorced and moved on, he didn't even bother to see the daughter except occasionally.

Her REALITY was living in her aging mother's house, with the mother caring for her and the daughter helping. IMO her prospects for finding love were slim to none, and she conceded as much. Even finding someone to look after her if the daughter bailed was iffy.

You're entitled to your opinions about the husband staying around and cheating, but please don't tell me that divorcing and leaving her in the lurch wasn't selfish, because it was.

 

On 12/3/2020 at 8:09 AM, mark clemson said:

(Note: I have a relevant personal anecdote relating to this, which I will share a bit later.)

[BaileyB]

Mark, there are always going to be outliers, and this story is an outlier... It is one example of a heartbreaking situation, a rock and a hard place, there is no good or easy answer here... Sure, it was selfish of him to divorce. It was also really brutal that his wife was diagnosed with a disabling neurological disorder at such a young age. Would I have left her - I don’t think I would have made that decision. But, I also haven’t walked a mile in his shoes... 

Is this really what we are discussing here? Is this the situation that you are struggling with, in a long and round about kind of way? Or are you throwing out another example of an extreme situation - such as is a woman in an abusive marriage justified in having an affair? And what is the value in using these kinds of extreme examples to justify the decision to have an affair - hypothetically speaking, of course. 

The reality is, the majority of people who have chimed into this discussion have not supported your hypothesis that it is just as selfish, if not more selfish, to divorce than have an affair. Take that as you may, there have been points made considering all perspective - the WS, the OW, and the BS - but the general consensus here is that affairs tend to be selfish, hurtful decisions given the dishonesty that is involved, the trust that is broken, and the basic right to self determination that is taken away when one partner believes they are entitled to make decisions for the other. In truth, there is opportunity to behave selfishly in both situations... affair and divorce. Some spouses behave very selfishly when they settle a divorce but it doesn’t have to be this way... and it often isn’t this way. I don’t think you will agree, you seem quite set on proving your hypothesis... Just something to consider. 

Edited December 4, 2020 by BaileyB

[Amethyst68]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

You're entitled to your opinions about the husband staying around and cheating, but please don't tell me that divorcing and leaving her in the lurch wasn't selfish, because it was.

Oh it was definitely selfish. IMO someone who would act like this would not have the necessary strength and empathy to deal with his wife's illness if they hadn't divorced. The woman you know would probably be dealing with an apathetic and neglectful husband. 

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, Amethyst68 said:

Oh it was definitely selfish. IMO someone who would act like this would not have the necessary strength and empathy to deal with his wife's illness if they hadn't divorced. The woman you know would probably be dealing with an apathetic and neglectful husband. 

Apathetic and neglectful - and possibly resentful and angry.

Certainly, it was a selfish decision to leave. But, as Starswillsine said above, it may actually have been the better decision for all involved. It’s hard to say, because nobody knows what would have happened had he stayed... Of course, the alternative, that he stayed and been a wonderful and supportive caregiver would be ideal. But, not everyone has the ability to be a caregiver. If he didn’t have that ability, best to acknowledge that rather than live a life of misery for all involved. 

Edited December 4, 2020 by BaileyB

[mark clemson]

2 hours ago, BaileyB said:

The reality is, the majority of people who have chimed into this discussion have not supported your hypothesis that it is just as selfish, if not more selfish, to divorce than have an affair.

I think you make some good points, however you are actually not stating my view correctly (although I concede the thread title may make it look a certain way). I'm not saying that (all other things being equal) an affair is just as selfish as divorcing in most situations. I'm saying the selfishness of a divorce (as an alternative) is often ALMOST as great.

I'm not overly interested in the view of the majority unless they have solid logic to back up their views. The majority of people in India apparently actually believe in an elephant-headed god. In total those believers probably outnumber US citizens. Nevertheless, I don't find their sheer numbers particularly convincing.

[pepperbird2]

I've been a BS, and it was awful! It can put your self esteem in the toilet.  I kept wondering what I'd done wrong, what I could have done better, what was wrong with me.
Since divorce was never discussed ( at least not with him putting it on the table)  I have no idea whether or not it would have felt more selfish to me or less if that's what he did instead of have an affair. 
 

[merrmeade]

On 12/4/2020 at 12:21 PM, BaileyB said:

This discussion about hypothetical situations is like trying to nail jello to a tree... 😂

EXXXXactly. 

On 12/4/2020 at 2:06 PM, mark clemson said:

Personal Anecdote:

I guess I'll share the personal anecdote I alluded to earlier, so we can get the "extreme scenarios" over with. I will note that this is NOT hypothetical, but a real person I actually knew, whose experience is part of what prompted this thread.

As it so happens I knew a woman in her late 30's with a teenage daughter. She had developed a crippling condition similar to ALS. She was wheelchair bound and nearly blind. The Ex husband had divorced and moved on, he didn't even bother to see the daughter except occasionally.

Her REALITY was living in her aging mother's house, with the mother caring for her and the daughter helping. IMO her prospects for finding love were slim to none, and she conceded as much. Even finding someone to look after her if the daughter bailed was iffy.

You're entitled to your opinions about the husband staying around and cheating, but please don't tell me that divorcing and leaving her in the lurch wasn't selfish, because it was.

I’m just relieved to see this thread moved from Infidelity to the General Relationships forum. It’s an appropriate move and respectful of the people that go there in the middle of an excruciating life experience. They can’t deal with philosophical what-ifs. 

It’s insensitive to analyze and judge betrayed spouses for mental sport. And like they said already, these are extreme examples. You’re discussing this as if you were writing a rule book. 

There are so many other topics you could throw around shuffling variables and circumstances around to consider the morality of this or that position.

 

[Wiseman2]

On 12/4/2020 at 7:07 PM, mark clemson said:

 The majority of people in India apparently actually believe in an elephant-headed god. In total those believers probably outnumber US citizens. .

So is this a rhetorical question or survey or personal dilemma?

Not sure why religions have been thrown into this blender of strange theories.🤔

[Fair]

This question seems a bit odd. There's no way being a cheat and staying with your family is in any way being more generous. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Fair

[mark clemson]

4 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

So is this a rhetorical question or survey or personal dilemma? Not sure why religions have been thrown into this blender of strange theories.🤔

 

Very funny. You're disregarding what I was responding to, which was a question about the majority of respondents to this thread (see below). More people having a view doesn't make it more correct, something which has been proven time and time again. At one point, most everyone believed the earth was flat.

 

On 12/4/2020 at 1:09 PM, BaileyB said:

The reality is, the majority of people who have chimed into this discussion have not supported your hypothesis that it is just as selfish, if not more selfish, to divorce than have an affair. Take that as you may, there have been points made considering all perspective - the WS, the OW, and the BS...

[spiritedaway2003]

The OP’s question: I think that it is more selfish to cheat than to divorce.  My reasoning is simple - if a relationship isn’t working out, two adults should, in an ideal world, sit down and talk it out.  A divorce is painful in its own, even in the absence of infidelity.  An affair or the discovery of one adds another layer of betrayal, which makes it harder to recover from than dealing with the end of a relationship. 

The problem is the “should”.  Often I’d come across questions like, “Why not divorce instead of cheat? Why get married if you plan to cheat?”   Those questions often don’t advance discussions.  While some may be cake eaters, the closer reality is that most don’t actively plan to cheat on their spouse. Most people don’t get married thinking about about how to cheat on their spouse, period.   

[SolG]

On 12/4/2020 at 3:09 AM, mark clemson said:

Obviously the least selfish thing (all other things being equal) is to stay put and suck it up. This whole thread implies a situation the person is unhappy enough that they are willing to divorce. So personal interest/level of unhappiness has outweighed willingness to simply put up with their situation. That's already a given here. Certainly engaging with a spouse and trying to fix things SHOULD be a first step. You can safely assume that has been tried and not resolved, e.g. the spouse won't or can't change and won't accept leaving the person with the options to leave or cheat (or possibly think of an alternative I'm not thinking of).

Mark, I don't think staying put and sucking it up is the least selfish thing to do at all. I think the least selfish thing to do is probably also the bravest and most difficult; and that's to be honest with a partner before embarking on either course of action. And not in the sense of trying to fix it, but honestly discussing intentions to open the relationship or leave if it has come to that.

I believe that in a perfect world if someone is considering wandering down any path that leads them away from the person they've acknowledged as their life partner, they should involve them in the decision making process.

I also believe most people are fundamentally good, or at least try to be. I get it that for most it is probably really hard to contemplate hurting a partner. And this is what I was trying to expound upon in my last post, obviously not very well.

Sometimes the mindset that FEELS selfless because it's about not wanting to hurt a partner is in a lot of cases not selfless at all because it's largely about the fact that 'I' don't want to hurt my partner. 'I' don't want to be responsible for that. And it becomes particularly oxymoronic to then cheat, an act almost guaranteed to elicit hurt if discovered, in an attempt to not hurt them via divorce.

Cheating and staying robs a BS of agency and intimacy. Whether they know it or not, the BS no longer truly knows who their partner is. Many BS talk of on DDay being most hurt by the lies and betrayal. Underlying this is the heartbreak of acknowledging that the WS denied them the knowldge of their desires, their fears, disclosed from them a fundamental part of who they essentially are or have become in that moment in time. 

Of course this can also happen in divorce if the decision is unilateral and not discussed.

However, generally divorce at least has some motivation in my experience in lessening a partner's longer term pain and exhibits the grit of enduring the immediate aftermath of transitonal pain in pursuit of something better for all involved. Whereas cheating in lieu of disclosure of discontent generally is more about self preservation in one way or another.

Edited December 7, 2020 by SolG

[vla1120]

I think I probably missed the entire true purpose of this thread and I'm not sure what you were looking for in terms of answers. However, based on your one extreme example you gave, IF I were in a marriage and IF I was diagnosed with a debilitating disease that would require 24x7 care, I would not want to put that responsibility for my care on my spouse, nor my children, nor my parent. They could either bring people into our home for 24x7 care, or put me somewhere I could get the around-the-clock care I need. I tell my daughters all the time to put me in a home when I am no longer able to care for myself. I just want a hidden nanny-cam that they can monitor to ensure I am getting proper care! 

As far as a marital relationship, I don't think it is logical for a spouse who becomes permanently disabled and unable to perform acts of intimacy to expect his/her spouse to become celibate for the remainder of their lives. That would warrant a discussion and decision on whether to stay married and find satisfaction outside the home, or divorce and go his/her separate way.

Edited December 7, 2020 by vla1120

[mark clemson]

10 hours ago, SolG said:

Sometimes the mindset that FEELS selfless because it's about not wanting to hurt a partner is in a lot of cases not selfless at all because it's largely about the fact that 'I' don't want to hurt my partner. 'I' don't want to be responsible for that. And it becomes particularly oxymoronic to then cheat, an act almost guaranteed to elicit hurt if discovered, in an attempt to not hurt them via divorce.

Of course this can also happen in divorce if the decision is unilateral and not discussed.

However, generally divorce at least has some motivation in my experience in lessening a partner's longer term pain and exhibits the grit of enduring the immediate aftermath of transitional pain in pursuit of something better for all involved. Whereas cheating in lieu of disclosure of discontent generally is more about self preservation in one way or another.

Certainly a legitimate view, particularly about taking the LT view. It's arguable, for example if the spouse specifically wants to NOT divorce, there are kids who will be impacted as well, etc. I think there is a balance in the minds of those making a divorce or cheat decision, between taking the risk if discovered of (most likely) inflicting even more pain on the spouse. I DO agree that generally if one is truly unhappy in a marriage, cheating won't fix that, something that perhaps some cheaters don't see for what it is. I DO also think that it can be a sort of emotional salve for them.

I think that if a person is truly at the point where they are divorcing to go find someone else, it's ultimately a selfish reason driving the divorce, and if there's a family involved the divorce will cause harm to at least some extent. The flip side, of course, is that (IMO) they shouldn't be forced to endure an unhappy situation, plus there's selfishness inherent in asking a spouse who's genuinely unhappy to stay as well.

The divorcer may believe it's better for the spouse in the LT, and they may have a point in fact, but I suspect that the person being divorced doesn't always see it that way. They are (often) losing a LOT in their view, parallel I think to someone being fired from an "ok" job.

It's selfish either way, to at least some extent. Which was my point in posting this thread.

Edited December 7, 2020 by mark clemson

[Prudence V]

11 hours ago, SolG said:

Mark, I don't think staying put and sucking it up is the least selfish thing to do at all. I think the least selfish thing to do is probably also the bravest and most difficult; and that's to be honest with a partner before embarking on either course of action.

What if... they tried, and got shut down. “The M is fine, I’m happy; so if you’re unhappy, you’re the problem”. But there are young kids involved. Young kids who got really freaked out and suffered badly during a “trial separation” (instigated by the “it’s fine” spouse, who wanted to explore some greener grass, and then discovered the greener grass needed to be watered, cut, cared for too, and eventually returned, tail between legs, begging for another chance. And was allowed back, because of the negative effect the separation had on the kids.) The partner doesn’t want to put the kids through that again, but has tried to address unhappiness in the M with no luck. The separation showed that happiness was possible - for the partner, but not for the kids. Must the partner must suck it up - and suffer - because the kids are happier with the parents together, and the “it’s fine” partner claims to be happy? Are they - the only one concerned about anyone else - doomed to be the one to suffer, because their spouse is so terminally selfish that as long as they get what they want, everything is fine and to hell with anyone else, including their kids? Should they take this route, even though it leads to clinical depression, violence in the home (being attacked physically in front of the kids) and isn’t sustainable in the long-term? 
 

Or, might they be allowed to find a little happiness where they can, while they struggle to keep things going for the kids, until the kids are at least old enough to contemplate another split, without their worlds imploding? 
 

Or, should they be “unselfish” and throw out the lying, deceitful, selfish spouse who reneged on promises, traumatising the kids again, sending their spouse into another self-destructive cycle which the kids will have to witness, doing who knows how much psychological damage to their fragile psyches? 

Which is the “least selfish” (but still sustainable) route here?

[serial muse]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

Certainly a legitimate view, particularly about taking the LT view. It's arguable, for example if the spouse specifically wants to NOT divorce, there are kids who will be impacted as well, etc. I think there is a balance in the minds of those making a divorce or cheat decision, between taking the risk if discovered of (most likely) inflicting even more pain on the spouse.

Dipping my toe back into this thread, as I see it's still ongoing.  I just wanted to note something here - I know that it's certainly possible that people deliberate over this choice in this way. But de facto, I don't know how common it is - it seems far more common that people "fall" into affairs in an unpremeditated way, and then scramble a bit to justify that "choice". Obviously this isn't universally true, but I think it's important to note that the ideal of it being a choice is just that - an ideal. Which isn't to say it never happens, or that people don't agonize over whether to cheat or stay in an unhappy marriage. But I don't see evidence that it's the norm. So from that perspective, one could argue that a divorce is a less selfish decision, in that it will more often involve actual deliberation of pros and cons (including impacts on spouse and kids). 

Edited December 7, 2020 by serial muse

[mark clemson]

6 hours ago, serial muse said:

Which isn't to say it never happens, or that people don't agonize over whether to cheat or stay in an unhappy marriage. But I don't see evidence that it's the norm. So from that perspective, one could argue that a divorce is a less selfish decision, in that it will more often involve actual deliberation of pros and cons (including impacts on spouse and kids). 

I suspect that's likely true, e.g. a friendship that becomes feelings that the person eventually succumbs to type of situation.

I would guess that for those types, once they're already in the affair, at least on an emotional level, that is when the question of whether to divorce arises. So I guess they are deliberating whether to divorce and be with their AP "fully" or stay in their marriage. I'm not sure if it's more or less selfish than planning out something consciously in advance. Maybe more selfish, but still involving a decision about how much harm to do to their family (vs emotional harm to the AP)?

[mark clemson]

6 hours ago, Prudence V said:

Which is the “least selfish” (but still sustainable) route here?

Right, it's hard to see a "right" answer in a case like that, at least IMO in terms of harm done. One is giving up happiness for the kids, so it becomes a form of self-harm or at least significant self-abnegation, living an unhappy life. People actually do this all the time I think, even without an affair but whether it's right to is a matter of opinion.

Of course IF they are discovered, the difficult spouse may then blow up and that will be the end of the situation.

[pepperbird2]

21 hours ago, Prudence V said:

What if... they tried, and got shut down. “The M is fine, I’m happy; so if you’re unhappy, you’re the problem”. But there are young kids involved. Young kids who got really freaked out and suffered badly during a “trial separation” (instigated by the “it’s fine” spouse, who wanted to explore some greener grass, and then discovered the greener grass needed to be watered, cut, cared for too, and eventually returned, tail between legs, begging for another chance. And was allowed back, because of the negative effect the separation had on the kids.) The partner doesn’t want to put the kids through that again, but has tried to address unhappiness in the M with no luck. The separation showed that happiness was possible - for the partner, but not for the kids. Must the partner must suck it up - and suffer - because the kids are happier with the parents together, and the “it’s fine” partner claims to be happy? Are they - the only one concerned about anyone else - doomed to be the one to suffer, because their spouse is so terminally selfish that as long as they get what they want, everything is fine and to hell with anyone else, including their kids? Should they take this route, even though it leads to clinical depression, violence in the home (being attacked physically in front of the kids) and isn’t sustainable in the long-term? 
 

Or, might they be allowed to find a little happiness where they can, while they struggle to keep things going for the kids, until the kids are at least old enough to contemplate another split, without their worlds imploding? 
 

Or, should they be “unselfish” and throw out the lying, deceitful, selfish spouse who reneged on promises, traumatising the kids again, sending their spouse into another self-destructive cycle which the kids will have to witness, doing who knows how much psychological damage to their fragile psyches? 

Which is the “least selfish” (but still sustainable) route here?

I know ti's not what you intended, but you ended up providing a very clear example of why divorce is actually less selfish.

Divorce is hard for everyone, especially kids, no doubt about that. The thing  is I have yet to see/ anyone who grew up in a home with parents who were dysfunctional and unhappy to the extent who doesn't carry some very heavy scars. Scars that might have been prevented if the spouse who wanted a change wouldn't have caved. They can say "no" to their child if they ask for a cookies, but they can cave on something this big?

The spouse in your example was simply taking the route of less resistance. The one that's easiest for them. To me, that's far MORE selfish than undertaking the work needed to untangle a mess like the one you describe. Besides, if the parent was as dysfunctional as you describe, why on earth would a parent not want their child to have something better? Add to that that if they have an affair an it gets discovered, if their BS is the way you describe, they'll likely go ballistic. How does that help the kids?

 

[LeoLady888]

On 12/3/2020 at 4:50 PM, central said:

A cheater's selfishness can sometimes be weighed against the selfishness of a partner that provides a motivation to cheat.  Doubly so when repeated attempts to "work on" the marriage have been rebuffed.

I disagree entirely.

Motivation = providing a reason to act in a certain way.

So are you saying the BS is responsible for the cheaters decision to cheat? That's 'victim-blaming' to me. 

I might be the crappiest wife in the world, burn his dinner every night, be drunk when he came home or not even there because I was down at some arcade playing the 'one arm bandits'. I could refuse to wash for weeks at a time, refuse to get a job or clean the house and refuse to have sex with him (mind you if I hadn't washed for a month I doubt he'd want to !) but none (or any combination) of these actions are any justification/reason/motivation for him cheating on me.

They might be justification for him walking out and banging in for a divorce, but not for cheating.

Likewise when attempts at improving the marriage have been rebuffed.  They don't want to work on the marriage but you do, so you aren't on the same page. Time to put an end to it. Move out and move on.

Cheating achieves nothing except providing a means for the WS to 'eat cake' - the ultimate in selfishness.

[LeoLady888]

On 12/7/2020 at 8:03 PM, serial muse said:

it seems far more common that people "fall" into affairs in an unpremeditated way,

I don't agree.

An affair is a deliberate course of action that is designed, planned and executed ( with the co-operation of two people) with the express purpose of fulfilling their own selfish agenda, while at the same time deceiving a third person.

Cheating is a choice. Always.