Is it REALLY More Selfish to Have an Affair vs. Divorcing?

[serial muse]

1 hour ago, LeoLady888 said:

I don't agree.

An affair is a deliberate course of action that is designed, planned and executed ( with the co-operation of two people) with the express purpose of fulfilling their own selfish agenda, while at the same time deceiving a third person.

Cheating is a choice. Always.

Oh my, I don't want to enter into this sort of debate. As a former BS, I'm hardly one to argue that cheating isn't a choice. Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt.

My point, and I think I stand by it, is that the "decision" to cheat is not of the same nature as the decision to divorce. I think that, on balance, the choice to divorce is more thought out, more deliberate, more intentional. That's not an excuse for cheaters, of course, and shouldn't be taken as one. 

[central]

3 hours ago, LeoLady888 said:

I disagree entirely.

Motivation = providing a reason to act in a certain way.

So are you saying the BS is responsible for the cheaters decision to cheat? That's 'victim-blaming' to me. 

I might be the crappiest wife in the world, burn his dinner every night, be drunk when he came home or not even there because I was down at some arcade playing the 'one arm bandits'. I could refuse to wash for weeks at a time, refuse to get a job or clean the house and refuse to have sex with him (mind you if I hadn't washed for a month I doubt he'd want to !) but none (or any combination) of these actions are any justification/reason/motivation for him cheating on me.

They might be justification for him walking out and banging in for a divorce, but not for cheating.

Likewise when attempts at improving the marriage have been rebuffed.  They don't want to work on the marriage but you do, so you aren't on the same page. Time to put an end to it. Move out and move on.

Cheating achieves nothing except providing a means for the WS to 'eat cake' - the ultimate in selfishness.

If a wife denies her husband sex without a good reason, he will be motivated to seek it elsewhere.  It's his decision, but his wife has made it easier for him to choose this path.  If she dislikes her husband so much that she won't have sex with him, then it is equally on her to divorce him to free him - and her - from their vows.  She has already broken her vows, so why is he held to a higher standard?  I don't think cheating is any worse than the denial (assuming there isn't good reason, but with good reason she should be filing for divorce, but most likely selfishly wants to keep the perks of staying married without the responsibilities).

[LeoLady888]

1 hour ago, central said:

If she dislikes her husband so much that she won't have sex with him, then it is equally on her to divorce him to free him - and her - from their vows

Agreed, so he should walk out and sue for divorce on the grounds of 'unreasonable behaviour' (in UK)

 

1 hour ago, central said:

She has already broken her vows, so why is he held to a higher standard? 

What vows do you mean?

[central]

15 minutes ago, LeoLady888 said:

What vows do you mean?

The "to have and to hold" part.  Simply put, this vow is talking about your physical connection and intimacy with each other.  You belong to one another.  While it's unethical to demand/force sex, withholding is breaking the vow unless there is damn good reason. 

I don't subscribe to any religious view of marriage, and we did not make such a vow, nor did we vow sexual exclusivity.  Most people do use the traditional vows, however.  If they don't mean all of them (so not made in good faith), then that invalidates them all (except the legal fact that the state considers you married).

Edited December 14, 2020 by central

[mark clemson]

14 hours ago, LeoLady888 said:

Cheating achieves nothing except providing a means for the WS to 'eat cake' - the ultimate in selfishness.

My thought would be that say, with a family with young kids, divorcing to go play the field would actually be just as or even MORE selfish. Destroying a family to go fool around. Yet seems that's completely kosher for some reason. At least a cheater is attempting to keep their family stay together (often at least). Yet this somehow this seems to slip past so many folks around here.

Divorce lets the spouse find someone else, sure, but the kids get to deal with visitation, new BFs/GFs, etc, etc.

Selfish either way you go. I think this characterization of it as the "ultimate selfishness" is bias, and nothing more. There's certainly much more selfish things people do every day, although I suppose most of those are actually crimes.

(Edit: Less selfish relative to divorcing in that it's less destructive. Divorcing destroys the family. Cheating only risks its destruction. Certainly either action is ultimately self-serving.)

Edited December 15, 2020 by mark clemson

[LeoLady888]

2 hours ago, mark clemson said:

At least a cheater is attempting to keep their family stay together (often at least).

So they are endeavouring to maintain the status quo (and all the perks they are getting) while 'trying on' another partner for size? And you don't think that's selfish when the BS has no say in the matter?

It's better for children to come from a 'broken home'  rather than living in one.

Edited December 15, 2020 by LeoLady888
Grammar

[Uruktopi]

16 minutes ago, LeoLady888 said:

So they are endeavouring to maintain the status quo (and all the perks they are getting) while 'trying on' another partner for size? And you don't think that's selfish when the BS has no say in the matter?

It's better for children to come from a 'broken home'  rather than living in one.

Bravo!!

[Prudence V]

10 hours ago, LeoLady888 said:

It's better for children to come from a 'broken home'  rather than living in one.

That’s my view, as an adult who grew up in a house where the adults “stayed together for the kids “. Not all agree, though. And some kids are so desperate to keep their parents together. 

[pepperbird2]

7 minutes ago, Prudence V said:

That’s my view, as an adult who grew up in a house where the adults “stayed together for the kids “. Not all agree, though. And some kids are so desperate to keep their parents together. 

Why should kids rule the roost? Keeping kids in a toxic household just because they throw the equivalent of temper tantrum speaks more to the lack of parenting skills in the WS than anything else.
Part of being a parent is saying "no" when it's for the benefit of your kids. Yes, it's hard to do that sometimes, but it goes with the territory.
 

[Prudence V]

24 minutes ago, pepperbird2 said:

Why should kids rule the roost? Keeping kids in a toxic household just because they throw the equivalent of temper tantrum speaks more to the lack of parenting skills in the WS than anything else.
Part of being a parent is saying "no" when it's for the benefit of your kids. Yes, it's hard to do that sometimes, but it goes with the territory.
 

There is a very big difference between “kids ruling the roost” and parents acting in what they (rightly or wrongly) see as being in the best interests of the children. There is research that says that, unless the atmosphere in a household prior to divorce was “toxic” (I’m using that phrase as shorthand to cover a range of scenarios), subjecting the children to divorce leaves them worse off.
 

(Here is one such reference: https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/14469/The Effects of Divorce on Children--1995.pdf?sequence=2)

There are also other factors. A spouse who was themself subjected to their parents divorce (or staying together when they *should have* divorced) is more likely to have strong views informed by their own (positive or negative) experience. If they felt, for example, that their parents’ divorce ruined their own childhood, they’d be less likely to want to inflict that on their own children (or, to inflict that on their children at a more “vulnerable” age.) Similarly, if they had empirical data - for example, having witnessed the negative effects of a previous separation on the children - that might influence their view of “what’s best for the kids”. 
 

I’ve never met a single person who allowed their children to “rule the roost” in the way you describe, dictating important decisions like that - but things might happen differently in your country than in mine. 

[pepperbird2]

1 hour ago, Prudence V said:

I’ve never met a single person who allowed their children to “rule the roost” in the way you describe, dictating important decisions like that - but things might happen differently in your country than in mine. 

To quote your previous post " some kids are so desperate to keep their parents together. "

Being a parent, there's been may times I had to make a decision my kids didn't like, but I did it because it what was best for them in the long run. I didn't give in, even though at the time,  they hated me for what I did. Sure, it would have been easier for me to cave, but that would have been all about what was easier and more pleasant for me, not what was best for them.

[pepperbird2]

Sure, both asking for a divorce and having an affair are self centred choices. To me, and I am not asking anyone else to agree with me, one option involves taking responsibility, even though it's hard.
The other? It's about someone taking the easy way out. Easier for them, at least. Given how there is almost always a chance for an affair to be discovered it really comes to down asking others to assume the risk without even knowing it. Sure, an affair can happen without being discovered, but there's just as high a chance that the proverbial beans will be spilled. If that happens, who will be hurt the most?
Not the WS. It may be messy and unpleasant for them, but it will be the BS, kids ( if any), extended family etc. who will carry the greatest weight.

 

[central]

15 hours ago, LeoLady888 said:

So they are endeavouring to maintain the status quo (and all the perks they are getting) while 'trying on' another partner for size? And you don't think that's selfish when the BS has no say in the matter?

It's better for children to come from a 'broken home'  rather than living in one.

I mostly agree with you on this.  However, I will point out that often it is the BS who is getting all the perks, and the WS is cheating because of the lack of such perks.  Both are selfish, and people almost always look out for their own interests when key things are lacking.  Most will also try to do their best for their children, but there are limits to what can and should be sacrificed - it's relative.

[mark clemson]

20 hours ago, LeoLady888 said:

So they are endeavouring to maintain the status quo (and all the perks they are getting) while 'trying on' another partner for size? And you don't think that's selfish when the BS has no say in the matter?

It's not that it's not selfish. It's that it's ALSO selfish to divorce. Particularly if the S really doesn't want to, but has no say in the matter. Particularly if it will impact kids (and of course divorce WILL impact them). You're not saying divorce isn't selfish, and I'm not saying cheating isn't selfish. The status quo isn't always all that great for some folks.

I actually do FULLY agree that cheating specifically to monkey-branch, particularly when that's the plan "from the start," IS just as selfish. Maybe the most selfish version of all, but I suppose that arguable.

 

20 hours ago, LeoLady888 said:

It's better for children to come from a 'broken home'  rather than living in one.

First of all this is a sound bite that glosses over actual reality. Second of all, by definition a broken home is one where parents are separated/divorced, so technically it's not accurate.

The point of course is about severe dysfunction. That's fair, but reality is that (unfortunately) PLENTY of homes have that without any cheating. To the point where it severely affects kids. Drunk parents fighting, workaholism and lack of communication/intimacy, mental illness, drug abuse, etc. Are THOSE situations all ones where the family's better off separated? Depends on severity, of course.

Cheating is the same way - sometimes it's a big enough problem to filter out into family life. And sometimes it's just fine. We get posts here where the BS was completely shocked ALL THE TIME. Not always, but clearly it's not impacting family life severely in cases like those. Just as often we hear about a feeling of "a little distance". Not particularly positive, but hardly a world of torture for the kids. Not even remotely comparable to some of the horrible stuff that sometimes goes down in real life, WITHOUT any cheating involved.

So, no, this slogan doesn't actually really mean anything with respect to infidelity, at least not infidelity in and of itself.

Edited December 16, 2020 by mark clemson

[Prudence V]

On 12/15/2020 at 6:14 PM, pepperbird2 said:

To quote your previous post " some kids are so desperate to keep their parents together. "

Being a parent, there's been may times I had to make a decision my kids didn't like, but I did it because it what was best for them in the long run. I didn't give in, even though at the time,  they hated me for what I did. Sure, it would have been easier for me to cave, but that would have been all about what was easier and more pleasant for me, not what was best for them.

The post you quoted was about opinions, not about what was “better” or “best” in the long run. The response following addressed issues about what was “best in the long run”, or not. 

[neowulf]

In having healthy boundaries, sooner or later, you're going to have to put "you" first.  That's what it means to have boundaries in the first place. 

Sometimes relationships just don't last.  The people in them aren't always monsters and it's pointless to attribute some kind of moral failing.

In the end, why would you want to be in a marriage with someone who no longer loves you?  Surely it's better to admit that you've tried your best and move on?

Divorce can be handled with honesty, kindness and respect.  It doesn't mean it doesn't hurt, but it doesn't have to be cruel. 

But an affair... that goes to the core of a person.  Trust, respect, kindness... all out the window.  To cheat is an act of betrayal, disrespect and cruelty.  It is anti-love and one of the most horrible things you can do to a person you supposedly cared for. 

They are not the same in my mind.  Not the same at all.

Edited December 17, 2020 by neowulf

[mark clemson]

5 hours ago, neowulf said:

Divorce can be handled with honesty, kindness and respect.  It doesn't mean it doesn't hurt, but it doesn't have to be cruel. 

But an affair... that goes to the core of a person.  Trust, respect, kindness... all out the window.  To cheat is an act of betrayal, disrespect and cruelty.  It is anti-love and one of the most horrible things you can do to a person you supposedly cared for.

An interesting view. You say it's anti-love, but if the cheater is unhappy and sticks around (cheats), aren't they choosing the partner more than they would be if they simply left (assuming there's no intention to monkeybranch)? Seems to me they are. I supposed it's arguable, but it seems like it's (for the most part) only actually cruel IF there is a Dday. In the vast majority of cases that cruelty is not intentional, as they are hiding the affair from their partner. (Revenge affairs of course being an exception.)

Yes, divorce CAN sometimes be amicable. But of course if there are kids, it subjects them to the disruption in their lives, custody situation, fights/emotional fall out IF there is any, as well as all the fallout that two new partners can potentially bring, which could be substantial.

Divorce seems pretty "anti-love" to me as well.

[serial muse]

31 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

An interesting view. You say it's anti-love, but if the cheater is unhappy and sticks around (cheats), aren't they choosing the partner more than they would be if they simply left (assuming there's no intention to monkeybranch)? Seems to me they are. I supposed it's arguable, but it seems like it's (for the most part) only actually cruel IF there is a Dday. In the vast majority of cases that cruelty is not intentional, as they are hiding the affair from their partner. (Revenge affairs of course being an exception.)

Yes, divorce CAN sometimes be amicable. But of course if there are kids, it subjects them to the disruption in their lives, custody situation, fights/emotional fall out IF there is any, as well as all the fallout that two new partners can potentially bring, which could be substantial.

Divorce seems pretty "anti-love" to me as well.

Hm. I'm not sure the WS is unintentionally cruel in the vast majority of cases. I mean, there's no way to know, of course. So, bringing up my personal data point of one, I'll just say that I know for a fact he wanted to hurt me, and enjoyed the idea of pulling the wool over my eyes. I discovered later he had all this unspoken resentment related to our respective careers, and this is how he was asserting his power or something. He was super cold to me during this time, but when I asked him what was going on, he brought up this and that and the other about his work, etc. 

I don't think mine is the only case of that, either. When push came to shove, finally, I asked him why he didn't just leave.

Said he didn't want to be the bad guy.

One can only laugh. 

But yeah, it wasn't because he was choosing me. It's because he was hoping I'd get fed up with the coldness and be the one to pull the trigger. 

[central]

The research I've seen shows that most male cheaters still do love their wives, and value the relationship.  (I don't know if women cheaters still love their husbands, in general.)  However, something is missing, obviously, and can't be fixed (most have tried).  If it's become a sexless marriage, and the wife won't agree to an open relationship (most still cling to sexual monogamy even when they've made the marriage sexless, and would be vindictive even if just asked), then what's the best solution?  Clearly, many men decide that the best solution for themselves and their family is to get certain needs met elsewhere.  Right or wrong, this is where the tradeoffs often lead - often, because the majority of people cheat at some point.

[serial muse]

8 minutes ago, central said:

The research I've seen shows that most male cheaters still do love their wives, and value the relationship.  (I don't know if women cheaters still love their husbands, in general.)  However, something is missing, obviously, and can't be fixed (most have tried).  If it's become a sexless marriage, and the wife won't agree to an open relationship (most still cling to sexual monogamy even when they've made the marriage sexless, and would be vindictive even if just asked), then what's the best solution?  Clearly, many men decide that the best solution for themselves and their family is to get certain needs met elsewhere.  Right or wrong, this is where the tradeoffs often lead - often, because the majority of people cheat at some point.

Is there really research showing this? I think there's a sort of conventional wisdom around that...it's the sort of thing I've seen repeated about here on LS ever since I got here 15 years ago. But as a BS and a woman and a longtime denizen of the site...de facto it doesn't feel correct to me, it's just something people have repeated so often it has the veneer of truth or something. I suspect it's about the same for men and women, honestly. So if there's some objective evidence of this I'd be curious to see it. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by serial muse

[central]

27 minutes ago, serial muse said:

Is there really research showing this? I think there's a sort of conventional wisdom around that...it's the sort of thing I've seen repeated about here on LS ever since I got here 15 years ago. But as a BS and a woman and a longtime denizen of the site...de facto it doesn't feel correct to me, it's just something people have repeated so often it has the veneer of truth or something. I suspect it's about the same for men and women, honestly. So if there's some objective evidence of this I'd be curious to see it. 

The conventional thinking is that cheaters do NOT love their spouse, so this research contradicts the "common wisdom."  I read about this recently, but don't recall where it was reported.  Anecdotally, I think this result is confirmed by how few men who cheat actually leave their wives - they value the relationship so much they don't end it, and it's surely more than an unwillingness to lose assets.

[Timshel]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

An interesting view. You say it's anti-love, but if the cheater is unhappy and sticks around (cheats), aren't they choosing the partner more than they would be if they simply left (assuming there's no intention to monkeybranch)? Seems to me they are. I supposed it's arguable, but it seems like it's (for the most part) only actually cruel IF there is a Dday. In the vast majority of cases that cruelty is not intentional, as they are hiding the affair from their partner. (Revenge affairs of course being an exception.)

Yes, divorce CAN sometimes be amicable. But of course if there are kids, it subjects them to the disruption in their lives, custody situation, fights/emotional fall out IF there is any, as well as all the fallout that two new partners can potentially bring, which could be substantial.

Divorce seems pretty "anti-love" to me as well.

Not Neowulf, obvs, but if I may...I guess I would need the parameters/context of cheating to be more clearly explained. In what you describe this would make 'sense' in either two scenarios. First, the betrayed spouse is consistently receiving a loving, attentive and affectionate spouse to an extent that an affair is not even subconsciously perceived and therefore remains blissfully unaware. Though in this circumstance, one would wonder why an affair could be 'justified.' Second, the betrayed spouse is a cold fish who is a roommate and rather content to turn a blind eye in order to maintain status quo.

It is difficult to imagine that an affair would have no affect on the betrayed spouse, unless the betrayed spouse could care less. Then that is the equivalent of an open marriage or at least an arrangement, is it not?

[Cookiesandough]

Think cheating/divorce can both hurt a person the greater or lesser degrees unless they just don’t care. Cheating has that added layer or betrayal. Divorce would have that layer of abandonment, I suppose. 

[Timshel]

I would like to add, what about the affair partners feelings/needs? How are those managed while keeping an anti-dday home? How in the world can a person properly maintain and keep all those plates spinning without eventual catastrophe? There are so many person's involved...the children, the spouse, the affair partner, extended family etc...

Divorce may be painful but it is clean and honest. I don't see your point of having an affair in order to avoid hurting people, it would seem hurt is inevitable as long as dishonesty is the base. How many people must a person lie to, gaslight and neglect in order to avoid a comparatively straight forward divorce?

[Angelle]

2 hours ago, central said:

The research I've seen shows that most male cheaters still do love their wives, and value the relationship.  (I don't know if women cheaters still love their husbands, in general.)  However, something is missing, obviously, and can't be fixed (most have tried).  If it's become a sexless marriage, and the wife won't agree to an open relationship (most still cling to sexual monogamy even when they've made the marriage sexless, and would be vindictive even if just asked), then what's the best solution?  Clearly, many men decide that the best solution for themselves and their family is to get certain needs met elsewhere.  Right or wrong, this is where the tradeoffs often lead - often, because the majority of people cheat at some point.

If they truly loved their wives, they wouldn't put their own sexual needs above the relationship. The wives also always seem to be blamed, ignoring the fact that a lot of people seem to get off on the secrecy, the "new relationship energy", not having the same amount of responsibilities when it comes to the affair partner. I remember years ago, when I came across blogs written by people who were cheating on their spouses. One man was getting "pleased" at his place of work, and didn't want to be at home around the new baby. He used his job as an excuse to get away from his family, and to cheat.