Is it REALLY More Selfish to Have an Affair vs. Divorcing?

[central]

1 hour ago, Angelle said:

If they truly loved their wives, they wouldn't put their own sexual needs above the relationship. The wives also always seem to be blamed, ignoring the fact that a lot of people seem to get off on the secrecy, the "new relationship energy", not having the same amount of responsibilities when it comes to the affair partner. I remember years ago, when I came across blogs written by people who were cheating on their spouses. One man was getting "pleased" at his place of work, and didn't want to be at home around the new baby. He used his job as an excuse to get away from his family, and to cheat. 

Perhaps so, but all too often the wives have put their sexual needs (usually lack of) above the relationship, and they're in a sexless marriage or the wife ceased doing any of the fun stuff long ago.  No doubt there are many reasons and excuses, but often the wayward spouse has been motivated by their spouse to get needs met elsewhere.

[mark clemson]

5 hours ago, serial muse said:

I don't think mine is the only case of that, either. When push came to shove, finally, I asked him why he didn't just leave. Said he didn't want to be the bad guy. One can only laugh.

No doubt he wasn't only case, however, I don't think it's at all likely the majority of cheaters are doing so specifically to cause harm or be cruel. One can just as easily do that by simply divorcing - it's likely to cause distress too. No doubt there are some that do, unfortunately. True, clinical narcissists for example might do something like that.

 

4 hours ago, Timshel said:

Not Neowulf, obvs, but if I may...I guess I would need the parameters/context of cheating to be more clearly explained.

I had a hard time determining what you were asking in that post - I feel like I should be responding, but I"m honestly a bit confused. I DO think that the above is exactly true - at a detail level, there's actually a lot of variation in specifics, which is why whenever a generalization gets made in this thread it's possible to counter with a "what if"/scenario. I've been doing that myself.

 

3 hours ago, Timshel said:

Divorce may be painful but it is clean and honest. I don't see your point of having an affair in order to avoid hurting people, it would seem hurt is inevitable as long as dishonesty is the base. How many people must a person lie to, gaslight and neglect in order to avoid a comparatively straight forward divorce?

That seems a fair point, but again depends a lot on specifics, e.g. as to whether the divorce ends up being actually clean and honest. IMO severe hurt in an affair is NOT inevitable - a divorce is likely to cause severe hurt (not always, but often). Certainly I've know people who were deeply hurt, but no doubt not everyone is. An affair risks severe hurt.

Depending on the specifics (again, ha ha), a divorce might not cause severe hurt, and an affair if discovered is likely to. Those are fair points. Depending on exactly how the affair is carried out, it perhaps could cause severe hurt even if never discovered, but I really doubt that's typical. There might not be much lying, except by omission, or too much neglect. Probably what's a lot more typical is all the stuff you read about here all the time. A gut sense, some doubts, some distance. That may bother the anxiety-prone or similar folks, but I suspect the majority chalk it up to being busy at work or similar, and so shrug it off.

[Uruktopi]

8 hours ago, mark clemson said:

An interesting view. You say it's anti-love, but if the cheater is unhappy and sticks around (cheats), aren't they choosing the partner more than they would be if they simply left (assuming there's no intention to monkeybranch)? Seems to me they are.

The opposite is love.

They are NOT choosing their (no more) partner by staying. Staying is NOT the paramount of love when you choosed to end it by being unloyal.

I would rather seriously respect the one who leaves me for another than a one who stays wth me after a break of our exclusive specialeness.

[mark clemson]

12 hours ago, Uruktopi said:

They are NOT choosing their (no more) partner by staying. Staying is NOT the paramount of love when you choosed to end it by being unloyal.

I would rather seriously respect the one who leaves me for another than a one who stays wth me after a break of our exclusive specialeness.

Of course, you're entitled to your opinion.  Unless they are actually planning to monkeybranch out of the marriage, they are choosing their partner relative to a choice to divorce IMO.

[serial muse]

20 hours ago, central said:

The conventional thinking is that cheaters do NOT love their spouse, so this research contradicts the "common wisdom."  I read about this recently, but don't recall where it was reported.  Anecdotally, I think this result is confirmed by how few men who cheat actually leave their wives - they value the relationship so much they don't end it, and it's surely more than an unwillingness to lose assets.

Hm. I don't agree that that is the conventional wisdom, to be honest. And...I don't think we can really say it's "confirmed" by anecdotes, particularly when we don't have information on why they don't leave (if it's true they still don't, and it's probably worth acknowledging that the asset question, at least, would have evolved, as well as the question of stigma over divorce, and even custody of kids). As you note, one possible reason for this is the concern over losing assets. Other possible reasons are kids, or simply not wanting to be the person who "pulls the trigger", as in my case. How can anybody really say with any certainty why a majority of people might do something? That's why I was wondering if someone has really done this study - and recently. I'd be interested to hear what people have to say about it, if they have. 

I'll note that I'm pushing back on this idea you proposed because I truly think these kinds of definitive statements, which are really just opinions, can do some active harm. They paint men and women in these situations in very stereotypical, and damaging ways, and I don't think it helps anyone. There's long been a storyline here on LS that women who cheat are kind of cold and heartless and men who cheat are desperate for love. But that's...really very suspect? I think you'll find that the people who generally push this narrative are people who are served by it in some way. Scratch the surface of these relationships and you find infinite variety, which makes a lot more sense anyway. Why be reductive in this way? It's not helpful to people who are really hurting, IMO. Everyone has anecdotes but people also see what they expect to see. I don't claim my experience is the norm, but I certainly don't think there's any real evidence that it isn't. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by serial muse

[Uruktopi]

4 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Of course, you're entitled to your opinion.  Unless they are actually planning to monkeybranch out of the marriage, they are choosing their partner relative to a choice to divorce IMO.

While I understood you, my answer pointed to another set of priorities in which divorce or not is not the main polarity. Being divorce or staying, even if important, a secondary axis. And conditonal to values higher, IMO, than the institutional. 

That is, the choice of a partner such that a certain kind of relationship remains worth of staying. A kind of relationship which becomes nullified in it´s core by infidelity.

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Uruktopi

[mark clemson]

I think you're saying that in your view cheating does more damage to a marriage than divorcing??  Not sure but that sounds like it, more or less?  Anyhow, I respectfully don't see it that way. You're of course entitled to your view.

[Uruktopi]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

I think you're saying that in your view cheating does more damage to a marriage than divorcing??  Not sure but that sounds like it, more or less?  Anyhow, I respectfully don't see it that way. You're of course entitled to your view.

You reach to that conclution about what I am saying paradoxically by ignoring what I´ve said: " ...divorce or staying, even if important, (is) a secondary axis. And conditonal to values higher, IMO, than the institutional"

The protagonist of divorce is or sems to be marriage.  

While this, the protagonist of the break of exclusivity is the couple, which is or should be what makes an eventual marriage to makes sense.  Or is, else, a fraud.

And as infidelity conceptually invalidates the core relationship, divorce is just the tombstone of what already died.

In the conditions of infidelity, divorce is an adittional harm to a corpse.

So the question about if "...cheating does more damage to a marriage than divorcing" miss the protagonists of either action as different ones.

And all this dialog mainly shows what is not being explicitelly said.

Which of both protagonists are we more worried about, even id we care about both.

The marriage in itself.

The human couple.

Of course I would love to have both.

But never the first at expenses of the second.

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Uruktopi

[Narie]

Cheating is worse than divorce. Because by cheating you will put your spouse into thinking of every changes they are noticing, every strange actions.. and you will keep on denying about it. 

It's a torture.  Rather than say let us divorce. I am not happy anymore. It's not working and all. 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Narie

[mark clemson]

19 hours ago, Uruktopi said:

In the conditions of infidelity, divorce is an adittional harm to a corpse.

I'm having a little trouble following your logic/what you say.

However, for the point above, I've heard others who feel/think that way. Again it's something I don't agree with, BUT you're certainly not alone in this view.

I'm more of the opinion that cheating damages a marriage (to a greater or lesser extent depending on specifics), DISCOVERY really damages it (and can again be to a greater or lesser extent, although OFTEN it's greater). A (firm) decision to divorce is what ends it.

If fidelity was actually genuinely integral to marriage there would be no open marriages, no "look the other way" situations, and there could be no reconciliation. But there are all of those things and probably other things I'm not thinking of. Ultimately IMO it's a legal union AND a mutual decision to stay together by both parties that make a marriage and/or keep it intact. The decision is probably more important than the legalities ultimately, except when laws come into play.

That's my view, but you do you. I strongly doubt I'd stick around if I was cheated on either, although it would probably depend on specifics.

[mark clemson]

19 hours ago, Narie said:

Cheating is worse than divorce. Because by cheating you will put your spouse into thinking of every changes they are noticing, every strange actions.. and you will keep on denying about it.  It's a torture.  Rather than say let us divorce. I am not happy anymore. It's not working and all. 

Sometimes that's true, no doubt. Sometimes it's not.

"Some distance" isn't torture for everyone and I think that some folks really don't even show that much distance. And distance can occur for other reasons as well, like an excessive workload, family of origin issues, etc.

No doubt there are ALSO cases where the WS turns really cold, negative, bitter towards the BS, so no doubt what you're saying happens some of the time. That may have been going on since before an affair started too, but not always.

[Prudence V]

On 12/18/2020 at 5:13 PM, mark clemson said:

Unless they are actually planning to monkeybranch out of the marriage, they are choosing their partner relative to a choice to divorce IMO.

...and for some spouses, that’s enough. We’ve seen threads (including some really long-running ones on the Infidelity board) where all the BS wants is for the WS not to (physically) leave the marriage. They want the WS to stick around to help parent the kids (especially if they’re a “great” parent), help run the joint business, take care of the yard, etc even if they know their WS has outside “interests” - they’re prepared to overlook those. 
 

 

[Uruktopi]

2 hours ago, Prudence V said:

...and for some spouses, that’s enough. We’ve seen threads (including some really long-running ones on the Infidelity board) where all the BS wants is for the WS not to (physically) leave the marriage. They want the WS to stick around to help parent the kids (especially if they’re a “great” parent), help run the joint business, take care of the yard, etc even if they know their WS has outside “interests” - they’re prepared to overlook those. 
 

 

True.

And is also true that for some people (and not a few) the above reasons, when the ony or main ones, are not enough to make staying meaningful, not desirable ones and they don´t even find them (on said conditions) specially healthy ones. Not individually for each one,  not and even less for the core relationship, not even for the kids.

Countt me, please, among them.

[Blind-Sided]

On 12/1/2020 at 2:18 PM, mark clemson said:

I suspect in many cases a divorce ALSO feels like a betrayal. Particularly if they thought things were going well.

 

 

There is no betrayal in the "Divorce."   It's just the legal end of the inevitable.  And, once the hurt is gone... joy returns.

To your original question.... Selfish isn't really a word I would associate with either a cheating spouse, or a divorce. (in most cases)    being "Selfish" is to get personal gain at the expense of others.  (ie, I'm taking the last cookie, even though I had more than everyone else, and I am still currently eating one.)  I would think the only time this would enter into it is with a "Gold Digger" type.  What I mean here is... "I'm going to divorce someone I love, and break up a family because a wealthy person wants to marry me."  (or some other point of personal gain) 

The one person who I know closely, who had an affair, and told her husband about it.... the affair itself had nothing to do with anything other than the other guy worked close with her... he stroked her ego (husband wasn't just because of comfort and time)  and he made her feel "Young and pretty" again.  (Although I think she is pretty)   She got a "High" out of being with someone new, and it was nothing other than poor judgment.  The selfish part is... they are still married, and they live as room mates.  The divorce would be the honorable thing to do, because the kids are still young, and they have at lest 11 years together if they are waiting for them to all be adults.  That time will turn UGLY !!!!  and the other half of this selfishness will be the kids will have high stress during the fighting and the inevitable divorce. 

Anyway... I think people put too many labels on things, and use the wrong words to describe them. 

My random thoughts.......

Edited December 30, 2020 by Blind-Sided

[mark clemson]

3 hours ago, Blind-Sided said:

There is no betrayal in the "Divorce."   It's just the legal end of the inevitable.  And, once the hurt is gone... joy returns.

Hmmm. While you make some good points in your post, and have actually been through a divorce, I'm pretty sure some % of folks DO feel a sense of betrayal, and "experience" the divorce, or at least the initial announcement/stages of it as a form of betrayal. Much like a cheater, their partner is no longer "loyal" to them. Whether they feel a "deep" sense of betrayal, or no betrayal at all but other emotions (e.g. shock, anger, desperation to keep the partner, frustration) or basically shrug the divorce off wistfully or similar is going to depend a lot on the specifics of their situation - e.g. where they are emotionally, how long the partner planned it, how the announcement was presented to them, etc. I've even read of folks who were secretly pleased when their spouse announced a divorce, but I suspect that's not overly common.

Edited December 30, 2020 by mark clemson

[DKT3]

There was a guy posting here so time ago who was excited to find out his wife was having an affair. He wanted out, but didn't know how to go about doing it. There are always exceptions.  People should never plan thier financial future by thinking they will win the lottery,  just as one should not expect to be the exceptions. 

I've dealt with infidelity and divorce,  it would have been much better to just have dealt with the divorce.  

[Timshel]

9 hours ago, Prudence V said:

...and for some spouses, that’s enough. We’ve seen threads (including some really long-running ones on the Infidelity board) where all the BS wants is for the WS not to (physically) leave the marriage. They want the WS to stick around to help parent the kids (especially if they’re a “great” parent), help run the joint business, take care of the yard, etc even if they know their WS has outside “interests” - they’re prepared to overlook those. 
 

 

No, I have not read this. I have read that the wife or husband that is cheated on is doing a 'pick me' dance. It is sad to read but make no mistake, they are attempting to keep their marriage. It is convenient for cheaters to belittle the betrayed spouse in this way...they want someone to pay the bills, take care of the yard...etc. When the person who is being lied to would like their husband/wife back, in the flesh and honest.

This is not a one size fits all situation...I am still not sure what Mark Clemson is getting at. Some spouses are content to look the other way. The majority of people are not content and are in a psychologically harmed state of being gaslighted, confused and not knowing what they should do to upright the sinking ship. Most people know most of the time that something is wrong.

How this can be amended by saying it's better to keep a spouse in an unending state of confusion/despair is beyond what a rational and empathetic human being would want to attempt to grasp. It is unnecessary and rather cruel bull.

Divorce is less difficult than lying. Money is not worth being a deceitful slog. Children are well and better with honest and honorable parents. Life isn't easy, best to show them by example how to navigate instead of how to be the first hapless idiots killed off in a B horror/romcom flick. 

[DKT3]

Mark is struggling in my opinion.  He had what I would consider a very mild affair.  Now he is trying to convince himself that its better not to tell his wife. 

Mark is a good guy, that much is clear. But I believe pretty unhappy in his marriage thus the dilemma.  He tried to find some happiness outside the marriage and know its created even more unhappiness.  

He is fighting his urge to be honest truly believing that its best if he suffer in silence and allow his family to continue on status quo. 

Unfortunately,  I believe it will fail because nothing will change if you don't confront the issue.

[Timshel]

21 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

Mark is struggling in my opinion.  He had what I would consider a very mild affair.  Now he is trying to convince himself that its better not to tell his wife. 

Mark is a good guy, that much is clear. But I believe pretty unhappy in his marriage thus the dilemma.  He tried to find some happiness outside the marriage and know its created even more unhappiness.  

He is fighting his urge to be honest truly believing that its best if he suffer in silence and allow his family to continue on status quo. 

Unfortunately,  I believe it will fail because nothing will change if you don't confront the issue.

You are so very optimistic when it comes to a man. Unfortunately, Mark seems to be fervently attempting to rationalize having an affair.  Do we need to have a discussion of this or are we able to call a duck a duck?

I know that Mark Clemson is about, so I do not think that I am typing behind his back. It would be better if he was out with it but this is the way of affairs...

[DKT3]

10 minutes ago, Timshel said:

You are so very optimistic when it comes to a man. Unfortunately, Mark seems to be fervently attempting to rationalize having an affair.  Do we need to have a discussion of this or are we able to call a duck a duck?

I know that Mark Clemson is about, so I do not think that I am typing behind his back. It would be better if he was out with it but this is the way of affairs...

I think if you asked Mark he would say I've probably been the most combative person here towards him. 

I mentioned that he is trying to rationalize it.  Trying to make it seem like he is doing his family a favor.  Reality is,  he doesn't want to face the consequences,  however that doesn't mean he doesn't believe what he is saying.  

 

[mark clemson]

1 hour ago, DKT3 said:

Mark is struggling in my opinion. 

31 minutes ago, Timshel said:

You are so very optimistic when it comes to a man. Unfortunately, Mark seems to be fervently attempting to rationalize having an affair.  Do we need to have a discussion of this or are we able to call a duck a duck?

 

Heh, sorry you're both incorrect in your assessments. Not sure if you saw above, or it got deleted by moderation, but I've indicated before that this thread isn't about me. I'm not going to respond more, as it detracts from the main discussion of this thread and I read it as (somewhat transparent) attempts to convince or manipulate me into doing something I know is wrong and/or make me feel guilty for doing something I know is right. I am ok with getting the mods involved for further "speculation" so if you feel like writing stuff that's likely to just get deleted, I guess I can't stop you.

 

16 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

I think if you asked Mark he would say I've probably been the most combative person here towards him.

No, you're really not so bad, DKT3. I've actually had two other folks post now-deleted mini-diatribes against me in this very thread, including accusations of sexism, online bullying, and the like. However, I'll state again that this thread isn't about me, it's a general discussion not for my personal support, which is why it got moved to General. So, enough already, if you don't mind...

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by mark clemson

[spiritedaway2003]

6 hours ago, DKT3 said:

Mark is struggling in my opinion.  He had what I would consider a very mild affair.  Now he is trying to convince himself that its better not to tell his wife. 

Mark is a good guy, that much is clear. But I believe pretty unhappy in his marriage thus the dilemma.  He tried to find some happiness outside the marriage and know its created even more unhappiness.  

He is fighting his urge to be honest truly believing that its best if he suffer in silence and allow his family to continue on status quo. 

Unfortunately,  I believe it will fail because nothing will change if you don't confront the issue.

I would say everyone who posts here is "struggling", to some extent.  Some of us want to understand how people got led down to certain paths and relate it to their own situation; others offer well-meaning advice so others don't make the same missteps.  Some still have residual "things" to work through.  Suffice to say, we're all here for different reasons whether you want to call it "struggling" or "healing" or "learning". Healing is not a linear process, especially when it comes to matters of the heart.  

As for telling vs not telling --  there is no "one size fits all" and advice must be weighed against the individual circumstance.  You are correct that not telling wouldn't allow the opportunity to confront issues; telling also creates its own traumas.

As for the thread discussion, I already stated that it is more selfish to have an affair than just divorce.  In some ways, it also begs to take a look at the institution of marriage. If two people are no longer compatible in a relationship and had to split (in a dating relationship, outside of marriage), no one would blink an eye. "It just didn't work out".   In the context of a marriage, the backlash on the person choosing to leave for is huge and that person would still be quickly labeled as "selfish", or "not trying hard enough", whether it is true or not.  

Edited December 31, 2020 by spiritedaway2003
typos

[mark clemson]

Since these are points relevant to the topic, I did have some thoughts on them.

23 hours ago, Timshel said:

Most people know most of the time that something is wrong. How this can be amended by saying it's better to keep a spouse in an unending state of confusion/despair is beyond what a rational and empathetic human being would want to attempt to grasp. It is unnecessary and rather cruel bull.

I don't think these are accurate statements.  They probably are true sometimes, but I think that to say essentially that the majority of BS are in "an unending state of confusion and despair" doesn't jibe well with what we actually get. From what I've read here, the actual distress often comes from a Dday and then, in retrospect, they realize "oh there was some distance, not as close anymore etc". Hardly a situation of despair. And even when there was lack of intimacy and "not being nice to me anymore" often those problems actually started BEFORE the affair.

I think you're try to make a bad marriage out to be a symptom of an affair. That's probably true in SOME cases, but I suspect that at least as often, if not more often, the affair is the symptom of a bad marriage.

 

23 hours ago, Timshel said:

Children are well and better with honest and honorable parents. Life isn't easy, best to show them by example how to navigate instead of how to be the first hapless idiots killed off in a B horror/romcom flick. 

Children are often emotionally harmed by a divorce. While cheating isn't ethical, it sometimes prevents that from happening. I think attempting to spare kids that, in cases where that is part of the reason for staying in a marriage, shows an effort and intent to minimize harm to them. Hence LESS selfish in the sense of minimizing harm.

Cheating (IF discovered) may not set the most ethical example, but divorcing does send the message that the parents happiness is more important than theirs. "I'm not happy, so I'm breaking up our family." What could be clearer than that?

[understand50]

In many ways, this topic seem close to the question "How many angles can fit on the head of a pin"  (BTW, As many as God wants).  Look, Both are real painful, not only on the two married folks, but offspring, friends, Family, and so fourth,  hurt.  Trying to decide what is more selfless, is useless, can not be done.  For everyone who has one opinion, there are several others that are valid as well.  Look, most, if not all, are here because we want to talk about one of the most painful times in our life, and try and get some advise or validation from others who may have been though the same thing. We are never going to agree on everything, except divorce and cheating just sucks.

I wish every one a happy new year....

 

[Prudence V]

On 12/30/2020 at 7:27 PM, Timshel said:

No, I have not read this.

I could post links - there is one current thread that’s over 30 pages long - but I don’t know if linking to other threads in that way is allowed. Either way, if you went to the infidelity forum and had a look, you’d see it.