Is it REALLY More Selfish to Have an Affair vs. Divorcing?

[Prudence V]

11 hours ago, understand50 said:

How many angles can fit on the head of a pin"

Angles, or angels? 

[understand50]

10 hours ago, Prudence V said:

Angles, or angels? 

So, I am spelling and grammar challenged....... In fact, writing for me is just hard.

But, I would say, as God is omnipotent, whatever feels good today. 

I wish you good luck.

 

[pepperbird2]

 

For the most part, the affairs i have heard of didn't start with an WS carefully weighting out the pros and cons and making a decision and deciding that it was worth it. Most say they just got caught up in something that got away from them- they didn't plan it- in fact, up until they met their OM/OW, would divorce have even been on the table? Did that option only come about because of the affair? If it did, then deciding whether or not it was more/less selfish is a moot point.
 

[Uruktopi]

On 1/1/2021 at 4:32 AM, Prudence V said:

Angles, or angels? 

No, no.

I guess he is saying thar angels boil at 90 degrees....or that right angles dance...or....forget it please.😆

[Prudence V]

14 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

Most say they just got caught up in something that got away from them- they didn't plan it

Sounds like avoiding responsibility, to me. 

[neowulf]

The act of being loving doesn't mean the absence of suffering. 

We euthanasie beloved pets once their suffering grows too great, even when it causes us tremendous grief. 

We punish children, causing upset, knowing that in the long run, it's done out of a desire to help the child.

I believe that love, at its core, is selfless.  It means putting our own pain and discomfort aside for the benefit of another.

Divorce is painful.  Yet, there may come a time when the relationship is over and there's no point pretending otherwise.  To do so is to trap both parties in a situation that makes both miserable.  Divorce may be the ending of a chapter, but it opens the way for the start of another.

Cheating isn't done for another's benefit.   It isn't motivated from a place of caring for another.  It is motivated by a desire to please one's self.

Blaming a sexless marriage is yet another attempt to rationalise it.  It may be a motivating factor, but the choice remains.  People who cheat are simply too afraid to commit.

Commit to leaving.  Commit to staying.  Commit to repairing.  It's all the same.  It's an unwillingness to do what is required to resolve the issue.

 

[Uruktopi]

31 minutes ago, neowulf said:

 

Commit to leaving.  Commit to staying.  Commit to repairing.  It's all the same.  It's an unwillingness to do what is required to resolve the issue.

 

I´m not sure if I agree with all your post.

But the above line deserves a standing applause.

[mark clemson]

1 hour ago, neowulf said:

Cheating isn't done for another's benefit.   It isn't motivated from a place of caring for another.  It is motivated by a desire to please one's self.

Commit to leaving.  Commit to staying.  Commit to repairing.  It's all the same.  It's an unwillingness to do what is required to resolve the issue.

A reasonable perspective. However, divorcing too, is motivated by a desire to please oneself and/or escape the distress of a bad marriage, right?

So more "fully honest", but also more fully committing to ENDING the marriage. No chance of getting though the rough patch. And of course, the impact on kids.

I've seen enough blow ups here to recognize that cheating often ends the marriage as well, of course. However, cheating takes the chance that the marriage/family would survive intact.

Edited January 5, 2021 by mark clemson

[neowulf]

44 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

A reasonable perspective. However, divorcing too, is motivated by a desire to please oneself and/or escape the distress of a bad marriage, right?

So more "fully honest", but also more fully committing to ENDING the marriage. No chance of getting though the rough patch. And of course, the impact on kids.

I've seen enough blow ups here to recognize that cheating often ends the marriage as well, of course. However, cheating takes the chance that the marriage/family would survive intact.

Concealing an affair is robbing the other party of their agency.  It is a self serving deception designed to maintain control of the situation.  It robs the other party of their choice to tolerate the situation or abandon it.   It is one party deciding what is best for all involved.  The decision to do that isn't coming from a place of love.  It's coming from a place of fear.

Yes, the decision to divorce could be seen as self-serving, yet it is also the most honest.  Even admitting the desire to divorce can cause a "call to action" for some couples to double their efforts to save their marriages.  

The choice to cheat is done in shadow.  It is based on lies and deception and so I don't believe can ever come from a place of love.

Divorce may be painful, but it is done in the open, in full view of all affected parties.  It is perhaps not less painful, but it at least respects the individuals involved.

That said, I'm willing to accept my personal bias in this.  Given the choice, I'd rather my partner divorce me than step out on me.  I could handle the former.  I'm not sure I could say the same of the latter.

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by neowulf

[mark clemson]

@neowulf  Thanks, fair enough...

[mark clemson]

For those who might think feelings of deception and a betrayal don't happen in breakup/divorces, and my statements are superfluous, here's an example thread (a breakup, not a divorce, but the same dynamics apply):

"Wow so the whole time we're lied to and were completely unaware of how they're feeling instead of them being upfront about it? Nice."

You might hear extremely similar sentiments in an infidelity situation.

 

 

[neowulf]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

For those who might think feelings of deception and a betrayal don't happen in breakup/divorces, and my statements are superfluous, here's an example thread (a breakup, not a divorce, but the same dynamics apply):

"Wow so the whole time we're lied to and were completely unaware of how they're feeling instead of them being upfront about it? Nice."

You might hear extremely similar sentiments in an infidelity situation.

Of course a breakup or divorce can occur with feelings of deception and betrayal.  If the people in those situations choose to be dishonest or fail to be transparent, then yes, those feelings can surface. 

But it's actually possible to conduct a break up or divorce with complete transparency and honesty.  The people involved can actually be up front about how unhappy they are, how the relationship is coming apart and transparent in their motives to leave.

Now show me a case of infidelity that doesn't involve feelings of deception or betrayal.  Ironically, the only way that occurs is when one partner makes it perfectly clear they're stepping out and lets the other partner decide what to do with that information.  You sometimes see this in high profile marriages, where one partner is completely aware of their partners cheating, but decides that the other benefits of the relationship outweigh the discomfort of infidelity.

The important factor is honesty and transparency.   Everyone is one the same page.  No one is being lied too.  People are treating each other like adults.   I may not agree with a person who stays with a cheating partner, but they can't claim to be in the dark about it.

There is no way to cheat on someone, hide it from them and not trigger feelings of deception and betrayal.  

Edited January 13, 2021 by neowulf

[mark clemson]

5 minutes ago, neowulf said:

But it's actually possible to conduct a break up or divorce with complete transparency and honesty. 

THAT is completely true. However, the de facto reality appears to be that it's not overly common.
Yet the vitriol and bashing seems to all leveled against cheaters, while those who sneakily break up/divorce somehow get a pass.

For example a recent post going on to the effect that cheating was "literally the most selfish thing you could possibly do, etc". I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist. Yet, I rarely see people bashing those who divorce or break up when it was done sneakily or noting how selfish it is to not give the partner some notice and a chance to redeem themselves.

[neowulf]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

Yet the vitriol and bashing seems to all leveled against cheaters, while those who sneakily break up/divorce somehow get a pass.

That's one interpretation of it.   May I suggest another.

Breakups often have two sides.  Yes, people will tell their side of the story, but people with experience generally understand that when a couple breaks up, it's common for people to be biased and uneven in their criticism of their ex and the relationship.   

Yes, one person may have in fact been sneaky and dishonest... or perhaps the "wronged party" was simply too bitter to see the warning signs and ignored their partners concerns?  We're a bunch of strangers on the internet.  We can't know all the details of what happened in the relationship or the exact situation, so I think people tend to be a bit more impartial about it.

Cheating on the other hand?  People are pretty clear in their heads about that one.   They're pretty sure they'd hate to be cheated on (or perhaps already have been) and respond accordingly.  They're pretty sure nothing justifies it.  Period. 

Cheating is simply much harder to be sympathetic of, because, as mentioned several times before in this thread, it is inherently dishonest by its very nature.  

Breakups and divorces may be ugly, but are necessary.  Cheating is not. 

Edited January 13, 2021 by neowulf

[mark clemson]

You make fair points. I think I've made some fair counterpoints earlier in this thread, for example WRT to "non-sneaky" divorces, while honest, feeling untenable for folks for various reasons, such as impacting kids, threats of unreasonable behavior, etc.

I do think that people are generally extremely clear in their heads that they wouldn't want a separating partner to not let them know about their plans to leave, not give them a chance to improve things, etc. I suspect most people who care about their partner would hate to have this done to them as well. Which is exactly why we see so much bemoaning of the situation from those who are actually separated from/divorced this way.

While divorce is not inherently dishonest, doing it in this way (the sneaky way), which I believe is reasonably common, IS inherently dishonest as well. What "justifies" it? The mere desire to divorce? 

Edited January 13, 2021 by mark clemson

[neowulf]

On 1/14/2021 at 3:14 AM, mark clemson said:

While divorce is not inherently dishonest, doing it in this way (the sneaky way), which I believe is reasonably common, IS inherently dishonest as well. What "justifies" it? The mere desire to divorce? 

No one is obligated to stay in a relationship.  Marriage does not obligate someone to stay in a relationship.  I truly believe that.

So, "What justifies a divorce?" The desire to leave the marriage.  No more, no less.

As for being sneaky?  I'd argue it's impossible to divorce in a "sneaky" way.  It may come as a shock, but you're not going to wake up one day divorced without realising it.

It's a protracted process, involving the courts.  

None of the above changes the nature of the original question;

Cheating is inherently more selfish than divorce, because it robs the other party of dignity, respect and self governance. 

[mark clemson]

2 hours ago, neowulf said:

Cheating is inherently more selfish than divorce, because it robs the other party of dignity, respect and self governance. 

The sneaky style of divorce robs the person being divorced of exactly those things as well. In the sneaky style, the protracted part is just the formal mechanics, the person had left the marriage long prior and just didn't bother to inform their partner while they emotionally detached, planned their exit, contacted a lawyer, etc. Not actually different from cheating in that respect.

With cheating, the BS stays in the marriage until a DDay or the affair ends. With sneaky divorce they stay too UNTIL divorced is announced. It's still deceiving the partner, shows disrespect, robs them of "agency", etc. Dignity too when they are hit with the emotional wallop of the sudden announcement, parallel to a Dday (although I certainly wouldn't say they are precisely the same).

They are extremely parallel. At least with an affair the couple might stay married if the affair ends and the WS regrets it and decides to stay. I suppose that could in theory happen with a divorce too if they change their mind. In the case of an affair, though, kids would be only minimally affected (I concede that can vary a lot, but it can vary with a divorce too). Once one parent moves out, visitation and similar things start, kids lives are substantially disrupted, lets not kid ourselves. That sort of thing MIGHT get avoided in an affair.

The ethics of a sneaky divorce don't seem all that different to those of an affair, frankly.