Is it REALLY More Selfish to Have an Affair vs. Divorcing?

[mark clemson]

On 12/2/2020 at 1:32 PM, KaterinaVon said:

Not being honest IS selfish

Ok, but so is unilaterally divorcing. You're again glossing over the actual main question of this thread, apparently in favor of simply reiterating how bad you feel cheating is.

 

Edit: Apologies, I see you did address the question. No, I don't think it's obvious at all. I think there are significant questions about whether it's actually more selfish, which is why I created this thread.

Edited December 5, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Off topic tangent

[KaterinaVon]

7 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

It's not semantics, it's the OP question.

I'm not trying to argue that affairs are honest. People have brought their own honesty arguments to bash cheating but in some cases disregarded the actual point of the OP.

This is one case where evil is in the eye of the beholder, since there are those who feel divorce is MORE evil and more of a betrayal than infidelity and/or simply won't permit it.

The question isn't whether cheating is selfish, it's whether it's actually MORE selfish than unilaterally divorcing. Opinions seem to vary on that, and for some the specific circumstances play a big role in that question.

This is a good discussion to have BEFORE you get married and BOTH parties need to be on the same page. For me, there’s nothing worse than a cheat and a liar. 
 

If a marriage is about honesty, LOYALTY, commitment, love, then what is left to have after an affair ? 

[mark clemson]

Marriages can be "about" many things. Sometimes they are for financial convenience, societal pressures, arranged marriages, sometimes due to an unplanned pregnancy, etc.

All that said, it's certainly fair to have an opinion on the matter.

[central]

If only it were easy to divorce a selfish partner, whether they're selfishly having an affair, withholding affection, spending too much time on career vs. spouse and family, being controlling, or dismissive, or neglectful, or spending too much on themselves, etc.  Many people are financially trapped, at least for a time.  Others may be concerned about the impacts on the kids, esp. if the spouse is a poor parent who will have partial custody.  The concerns go on and on.  Some affairs are no doubt an attempt to fill a need that their spouse can't or won't, particularly when leaving or trying to do so would be harmful to someone - self included.  There is no way to make this whole thing simple, even if the ethics are clear.  Human nature precludes that, and human nature includes cheating as a fairly typical and normal behavior, like it or not.

[Uruktopi]

5 hours ago, mark clemson said:

 Hmm. You're entitled to your opinion of course. To me vows are not that big a deal. Even if they were, I'm not seeing actual logic here.

Divorce IS breaking a vow. "Till death do us part." So you're breaking one too.

You can break one vow and permanently end the marriage and traumatize your spouse, disrupt their life, etc.

Or you can break a different vow, and, while taking a risk, if successful minimize trauma and disruption.

Both are selfish, but I don't see a logical reason given why cheating is MORE selfish.

 

 

You seem to be minimizing divorce. As I pointed out it IS breaking a vow. It can be HIGHLY painful and disruptive. "Giving both of you an opportunity" is a matter of perspective, we certainly get plenty of posts here showing significant distress, in some cases it certainly appears on a par with BSs, with people wondering how they got blindsided, what to do now, etc.

You talk about morals and integrity, but there are certainly people who tolerate cheating spouses rather than divorcing due to their morals - for example, they don't want to divorce due to their religious views. Slapping a unilateral divorce on people like that isn't exactly a kind thing to do. Nor is walking away e.g. when your spouse develops a chronic illness. What "opportunity" has one given them? The opportunity to live out their days alone while you go date other folks?

I think for some divorce, not cheating, is seen as the ultimate backstab. I'll concede that cheating probably isn't too far down the list.

Hard to disagree with you more than I actually do.

And it seems that I´m not the only one.

[KaterinaVon]

Just now, mark clemson said:

Marriages can be "about" many things. Sometimes they are for financial convenience, societal pressures, arranged marriages, sometimes due to an unplanned pregnancy, etc.

All that said, it's certainly fair to have an opinion on the matter.

All good discussions before the marriage, what you have now is two people who didn’t discuss enough beforehand and now have grown apart yet continue to stay married with their own separate agendas.

 

[Timshel]

13 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Thank you for your concern. It IS an analytical question. However, I feel there is SOME truth to the notion that divorce is also selfish, sometimes QUITE so.

What prompted it is how frequently I read folks proclaiming "oh they're so selfish cheating etc", yet when folks ask about divorcing it's rare. This seems one-sided to me, since divorcing actually IS selfish too. One can (reasonably IMO) contrast how selfish the cheater is being by cheating with how selfish they would be being if they just divorced instead. IMO it's a fair point to be made. Sure they were selfish to cheat - but how selfish would they have been to just force a divorce on their spouse and kids.

 

Will try to BBL to address/discuss some additional responses.

Ok, well, there seems an assumption that divorce is some apocalyptic event; It isn't. I understand that truth is uncomfortable; but I have never observed long term damage to any person's psyche or well being from being told the truth. 

My ex husband called me almost every name in the book and was sanctimoniously pissed but when his wound healed, he trusts me.  We co parent well and he knows that I will tell him the truth. Since the day we were married to this day, he has never ever called me a liar.

BBL?

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/beauty/skin-care/a28170595/what-is-brazilian-butt-lift/

[Uruktopi]

35 minutes ago, KaterinaVon said:

You are just NOT compatible and that’s a reason for divorce. 

Bravo!

[Uruktopi]

29 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Marriages can be "about" many things. Sometimes they are for financial convenience, societal pressures, arranged marriages, sometimes due to an unplanned pregnancy, etc.

 

Yes, marriage as the mask of a fraud can be "about" many things.

That is why fidelity is not mainly about marriage but about a loving monogamous couple.  And IF there is ALSO a marriage builded around it, both (said relationship and the marriage that takes it´s meaning from it) gets empty of it´s core purpose.

Divorce is, in that particular case, just making formal what betrayal already did for real.

[Amethyst68]

I think knowing your partner and having the same ideals is important. 

If you both have a 'what the eye doesn't see the heart doesn't grieve over' attitude then great but if you know that honesty and fidelity is important to your partner then hopefully you will both honour that. 

Apparently the majority of marriages survive infidelity, at least at first I think there's a difference between staying married and being reconciled. Both people have input, even if comes to divorce. It's not one person arbitrarily making decisions (in their own best interests) without their partner's knowledge. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Amethyst68

[Allupinnit]

Infidelity is the only acceptable reason the Bible gives FOR divorce, so there goes your religious argument.  Even back then people knew how egregious unfaithfulness was.

 

[mark clemson]

9 minutes ago, Allupinnit said:

Infidelity is the only acceptable reason the Bible gives FOR divorce, so there goes your religious argument.  Even back then people knew how egregious unfaithfulness was.

Was there a religious argument being made?

[mark clemson]

2 hours ago, Timshel said:

Ok, well, there seems an assumption that divorce is some apocalyptic event; It isn't.

Ditto for cheating.

If you're going to try to claim it IS, I'll point out the subjective experience differs, just as for divorce.

So we're back to the original question of whether it's more selfish to cheat than to divorce.

[Allupinnit]

1 minute ago, mark clemson said:

Was there a religious argument being made?

You made religion a reason for people not wanting to divorce.  I'm saying that in the case of infidelity most religions would permit one (that is of course the BS even knows what's going on).  

Were you a BS?  Caught up in an affair?  I'm asking because you seem to have a lot of opinions/thoughts when it comes to infidelity on LS.  And it's really hard to know where you're coming from, because you talk in platitudes and tend to want to argue points even if you agree with them.  Just wondering what life experiences have brought you to this point.

[mark clemson]

2 hours ago, Uruktopi said:

That is why fidelity is not mainly about marriage but about a loving monogamous couple. 

I think that ideally this is true. However often enough it's not.

Certainly you're welcome to your views.

Do you think that divorcing unilaterally when the other person really really doesn't want you to (assuming no major transgressions like cheating) is never selfish?

[Allupinnit]

Just now, mark clemson said:

I think that ideally this is true. However often enough it's not.

Certainly you're welcome to your views.

Do you think that divorcing unilaterally when the other person really really doesn't want you to (assuming no major transgressions like cheating) is never selfish?

You're talking about abandonment.  So which is worse, abandonment or cheating?  Why can't people commit to just not being a**h***s?  The grass is greenest where you water it.  The vast majority of people who are married are tempted to cheat.  Choosing the high road separates the adults from the chumps.  So, choose your "hard."  Being married is hard, but also being single and lonely and dating is hard.

 

[mark clemson]

5 minutes ago, Allupinnit said:

You made religion a reason for people not wanting to divorce.  I'm saying that in the case of infidelity most religions would permit one (that is of course the BS even knows what's going on). 

Ah, got it. I think generally you're right. That said, I'm quite sure there are people who don't want to divorce, even post-infidelity, for religious reasons, presumably due to their interpretation/school of thought on their religious teachings. I'm not saying they'd want to be cheated on or anything, but I do think it's plausible they'd prefer it to divorcing, and forcing a divorce on them would be both selfish and traumatic for them.

This thread isn't about me. I did explain the reasons why I posted it several posts up.

[mark clemson]

5 minutes ago, Allupinnit said:

You're talking about abandonment.  So which is worse, abandonment or cheating? 

I'm talking about divorcing, particularly unilaterally, or by any other name... so yes, this gets at the question at hand I suppose.

 

5 minutes ago, Allupinnit said:

The grass is greenest where you water it.  The vast majority of people who are married are tempted to cheat.  Choosing the high road separates the adults from the chumps.  Being married is hard, but also being single and lonely and dating is hard.

Not to be mean, but - what was that about "platitudes" a few posts ago?

[Amethyst68]

4 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

I think that ideally this is true. However often enough it's not.

No that's what fidelity is, married or not. It's not the only template for a relationship of course that's why it's important to be on the same page as your partner. 

[Amethyst68]

I also think most divorces/splits are ultimately decided upon by one person.  I've not known any in real life that are a mutual decision. Someone always had to suggest the idea and move it forward. 

[Allupinnit]

2 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

I'm talking about divorcing, particularly unilaterally, or by any other name... so yes, this gets at the question at hand I suppose.

 

Not to be mean, but - what was that about "platitudes" a few posts ago?

It's more along the lines of "pearls of wisdom."  Up to anyone reading whether or not they want to apply it to their lives, or be at the mercy of their flawed human tendencies.  Fidelity is not always easy.  And when it's not easy, doesn't mean you should abandon your marriage.  Happy is work.  

[Allupinnit]

Wanted to add: I do not advocate for staying where you are being abused, lied to, or cheated on, however. 

[Timshel]

6 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Ditto for cheating.

If you're going to try to claim it IS, I'll point out the subjective experience differs, just as for divorce.

So we're back to the original question of whether it's more selfish to cheat than to divorce.

So you are interested in a circular argument or some round about way of saying that Sometimes, Under Certain Circumstances, Etc...So on and So Forth, Eh Hmm and Furthermore.

I'm not claiming anything...anecdotal experience has taught me that truth is less harmful to other people than deceit.

I haven't met a single divorced person who said, 'I really wish we had just lied to each other.' I haven't met a single divorced person who had been cheated on who said that they would rather have stayed deceived and married.

To each their own, it seems like some gymnastics and the truth is simple.

[MilaVaneela]

1 hour ago, Allupinnit said:

Wanted to add: I do not advocate for staying where you are being abused, lied to, or cheated on, however. 

Thank you. I don’t think that the tit for tat blanket statement “divorce is (always) as selfish/more selfish than cheating” is sound logic, in all honesty. If one partner cheats, the other partner has the right to remove themselves from the marriage. It’s not very equitable to force the cheated on spouse to just meekly accept their partner stepping outside the marriage with a smile and a “thank you sir, may I have another”. 

I don’t think that divorcing in a situation where the marriage has become untenable for both parties is selfish at all.   The stress and negativity from such an environment isn’t healthy for either person or any children involved. 
 

If the wandering party’s infidelity results in physical or financial harm to the betrayed then it is definitely NOT selfish for the betrayed to disentangle from the marriage (I would argue for mental and emotional harm as well but some don’t believe in that because it’s not material and thus not “logical”). The WS is not entitled to just do damage to their spouse and expect the spouse to absorb said damage continuously. 

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by MilaVaneela

[mark clemson]

2 hours ago, Amethyst68 said:

No that's what fidelity is, married or not.

Yes, I understand that, of course. And ideally there is fidelity in a marriage or relationship.

 

2 hours ago, Amethyst68 said:

I also think most divorces/splits are ultimately decided upon by one person.  I've not known any in real life that are a mutual decision. Someone always had to suggest the idea and move it forward. 

Interesting. I would assume it can be a mutual decision sometimes. But I suspect you are right that often one partner is driving it.