Is it REALLY More Selfish to Have an Affair vs. Divorcing?

[mark clemson]

18 minutes ago, KaterinaVon said:

wrong is wrong no matter how “lonely “ you feel or the mental state you are in, and as far as cheating there are other ways out that don’t involve deceit and lies to serve your purpose that only benefits you and no one else, an affair is not a benefit to your spouse and even if they were a crummy person two wrongs don’t make a right.

The "other way" is primarily divorce. The point of this thread IS to point out that what is seen as "right" by some people very much carries its own negative (and sometimes VERY negative) consequences. It can, and frequently does, ALSO involve deceit and lies to serve the purpose of the divorcing person.

You seem intent on denying these facts. Why?

[Buffer]

Hell yes!

If in doubt, talk it out, but to just have a A to fill a void without the common courtesy of a chance for the partner to address, then yes it is a selfish act and D first.

My two cents.

One day at a time.

Buffer 

[mark clemson]

@Buffer I don't see a logical argument in there. That said, you're entitled to your personal opinion, so fair enough. Thanks for responding.

[pepperbird2]

Maybe this is all about perspective?

Who should say whether an act is selfish? the perosn committing it? the person who will be hurt by it?
I was thinking about this a bit more after I made my last post. If, as some say having an affair can be a way for someone to cope with a marriage they to longer wish to be in, then wouldn't that involve at least some conscious thought and planning?

Also, if someone "uses" a Ow/OM as a coping tool while making them think they want to be with them full time someday isn't that the very definition of selfishness?

[Starswillshine]

Mark,

Give us examples where YOU believe divorce is MORE selfish than having an affair. Minus the position that a spouse is in a coma state or any position where the other spouse gives consent.

[mark clemson]

1 hour ago, Starswillshine said:

Give us examples where YOU believe divorce is MORE selfish than having an affair. Minus the position that a spouse is in a coma state or any position where the other spouse gives consent.

The point I'm making ISN'T that typically divorcing is MORE selfish than having an affair. I do agree with Pepperbird that it can be a matter of perspective, at least to some extent.

However, since you asked:

18 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Contrast a drunken ONS that is confessed and forgiven six months later with a planned-out "surprise" divorce of someone who has no job skills, mental health issues, and 3 shared children to support. Say they've been married 6 years and will do only 3 years of spousal support. I don't think it's a contest - the divorcing person is leaving their partner high and dry.

In fact let's take out the deception aspects:

18 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Contrast a drunken ONS that is confessed and forgiven six months later  [put whatever parameters you want WRT to confession/secrecy]   with a planned-out "surprise" divorce of someone who has no job skills, mental health issues, and 3 shared children to support. Say they've been married 6 years and will do only 3 years of spousal support.

 

Let's say the person divorces SO they can be with other people. They're just not attracted to the stbX. They're (wisely, but cruelly) not willing to continue supporting the Ex beyond what's legally required so they won't interfere with any new relationships.

This divorce is certainly selfish - they're doing it for their own benefit and is leaving the person high and dry.

Whether it would be more selfish than an ongoing affair in lieu of divorcing is in part a matter of opinion. I'd say that it could reasonably seen that way. No doubt perspectives will vary.

[Starswillshine]

And FTR, I have been a woman with zero work history, no additional education outside of 1 year of college. Etc. I rather live in a box than be married to that. 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Starswillshine

[pepperbird2]

just me, but I would want to know if a guy I was married to had a one night stand. That's because I would want to know what he was capable of.  I would also want to be tested for STDs.
To me, keeping it a secret would be very selfish, simply because by not telling me, he would be removing my right to be in charge of my own health and well being. Whether or not that ONS would lead to divorce I couldn't say ( this is a hypothetical)

 

[Milly May June]

@mark clemsonhow would you summerize the answer to your thread question based on the answers you got so far? What would you say is the doninating view? 

I must admit i am having a hard time following the logics in some posts 😊. 

[Amethyst68]

45 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Let's say the person divorces SO they can be with other people. They're just not attracted to the stbX. They're (wisely, but cruelly) not willing to continue supporting the Ex beyond what's legally required so they won't interfere with any new relationships

So you think it's better for the spouse to be in a relationship with no intimacy, staying faithful while the WS is off having their fun with whomever they want? 

At least in a divorce they'll eventually move on and hopefully meet someone who is attracted to them and treats them well.

[mark clemson]

4 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

Also, if someone "uses" a Ow/OM as a coping tool while making them think they want to be with them full time someday isn't that the very definition of selfishness?

 

I think this is a good point. I don't think it's actually that different, however, from someone who dates someone who's "not the one" due to loneliness or the desire for pleasure, etc.

It's different, but it's not THAT different in the sense that they are to at least some extent "using" the other person to meet their needs.

Edited December 4, 2020 by mark clemson

[mark clemson]

55 minutes ago, Starswillshine said:

Being dishonest and carrying on behind the spouses back while acting like a martyr (im doing this for HER) is the most self serving, selfish thing I have ever heard. 

BTW, I NEVER claimed cheating was being done FOR the spouse. I'm saying the selfishness of cheating must be weighed against the selfishness of "more moral" alternatives.

[mark clemson]

25 minutes ago, Amethyst68 said:

At least in a divorce they'll eventually move on and hopefully meet someone who is attracted to them and treats them well.

This is a reasonable point generally.  I was asked to provide a SPECIFIC situation where cheating might be LESS selfish (which is NOT the point I'm making in this thread).

With the parameters I gave - an unattractive, unemployed person with mental health issues and 3 kids, let's not kid ourselves this person would have a hard time in the dating market.

Not to bash your point, because there is some general validity. But in this specific case, by a similar logic I could claim making someone lose their job is "doing them a favor" because they MIGHT get a much better one or start their own biz and become a millionaire, etc. It COULD happen, but no, you're not doing them any favors.

[mark clemson]

1 hour ago, Starswillshine said:

And FTR, I have been a woman with zero work history, no additional education outside of 1 year of college. Etc. I rather live in a box than be married to that. 

Fair enough, but you can't speak for everyone. For example, there are plenty of women out there who tolerate cheating husbands in return for a good lifestyle. Happens all the time.

You might say "they know" - maybe, but I'd imagine in most cases the husband goes and does his thing and they look the other way.

Not a marriage I'd want to be in either, frankly but everyone's different.

[Starswillshine]

14 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

This is a reasonable point generally.  I was asked to provide a SPECIFIC situation where cheating might be LESS selfish (which is NOT the point I'm making in this thread).

With the parameters I gave - an unattractive, unemployed person with mental health issues and 3 kids, let's not kid ourselves this person would have a hard time in the dating market.

Not to bash your point, because there is some general validity. But in this specific case, by a similar logic I could claim making someone lose their job is "doing them a favor" because they MIGHT get a much better one or start their own biz and become a millionaire, etc. It COULD happen, but no, you're not doing them any favors.

Yet, maybe, after divorce that person can meet someone who DOES find her attractive, understands her mental health illnesses, and has zero issue being with someone who has children. And... maybe she actually thrives in the situation. And turns everything around. 

Coming from someone who has FOUR children. Hadnt worked since i was 18. Depression and anxiety. And I'm in a happy relationship now. Whose to say what the future holds for that other spouse? 

[Amethyst68]

Quote

With the parameters I gave - an unattractive, unemployed person with mental health issues and 3 kids, let's not kid ourselves this person would have a hard time in the dating market

If someone has these issues they're going to be made worse by someone who is supposed to love and support them but,  who, in your scenario would most likely neglect them, including their mental health. Their self respect would be damaged even further and they wouldn't even know the reason. 

To use your phrase, let's not kid ourselves someone with 3 kids got them somehow.  Someone found them attractive enough to have a family with. Not everyone has the same ideals of what constitutes attractive.  

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Amethyst68

[mark clemson]

54 minutes ago, Milly May June said:

how would you summerize the answer to your thread question based on the answers you got so far? What would you say is the doninating view?

Taking the "dominating" view as a summary wouldn't make much sense since (perhaps unsurprisingly) there seem to be some with very strong opinions but weak arguments. (BTW, that is NOT meant to "bash" those who've simply posted their views without trying to cram them down my throat and ignore what I've actually said - I respect the vast majority of fellow LS posters and of course recognize that views will differ.)

I like these points from other posters, and think they summarize it pretty well:

 

On 12/3/2020 at 8:46 AM, elaine567 said:

It is really about morality, the cheater is seen as having no moral high ground and is seen as selfishness personified.
The person wanting a divorce from an unwilling partner, often has the moral high ground, so whilst they may be very selfish with the same goals as the cheater basically, ie seeking to meet their needs outside the marriage, they are not usually seen as selfishness personified.

 

On 12/2/2020 at 7:03 AM, serial muse said:

Both things can be deeply traumatic, and one just shouldn't assume that either is worse. I think that's probably the takeaway here. 

 

I would technically actually say "hasn't lost the moral high ground" in Elaine's post, but I think her point is clear (as well as being realistic and valid).

[mark clemson]

19 minutes ago, Amethyst68 said:

If someone has these issues ...

These are fair points. There are counterarguments, but I suspect you can see many of them already so there's no need to dive down this particular rabbit hole IMO.

Edited December 4, 2020 by mark clemson

[mark clemson]

18 minutes ago, Starswillshine said:

Coming from someone who has FOUR children. Hadnt worked since i was 18. Depression and anxiety. And I'm in a happy relationship now. Whose to say what the future holds for that other spouse? 

Okay - so, you are one of the lucky ones. Good for you. This is NOT to bash, but to reason this out:

You are holding yourself up as a counterexample. Were you actually divorced by your first husband and found another one dating WHILE being unattractive, unemployed, chronically depressed, and having all those kids in tow, or is that not how your story played out?

Even if all the above is actually true, IMO this really just means you were one of the lucky ones who managed to turn a very negative situation around.

[Starswillshine]

6 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Okay - so, you are one of the lucky ones. Good for you. This is NOT to bash, but to reason this out:

You are holding yourself up as a counterexample. Were you actually divorced by your first husband and found another one dating WHILE being unattractive, unemployed, chronically depressed, and having all those kids in tow, or is that not how your story played out?

Even if all the above is actually true, IMO this really just means you were one of the lucky ones who managed to turn a very negative situation around.

And likely.... this spouse could turn it all around, too. But by making decisions for her, that possibility does not sound like it will be there. Instead, she is married to a man who cheats behind her back, has so little respect for her that he thinks she could never do much better than the pity he gives. 

It is not only extremely selfish, but I would say borderline abusive. If not, abusive. 

[mark clemson]

So that WAS your situation? (You never actually say.) If so, good for you.

I do disagree with your point, I think you were just fortunate. Plenty of women with kids bat around the dating market while being attractive and employed and never make it to remarriage.  It's easy for the Elon Musks of the world to say "anyone can be a success in business", but REALITY of course is that the vast majority who actually try fail.

 

11 minutes ago, Starswillshine said:

It is not only extremely selfish, but I would say borderline abusive. If not, abusive. 

I've had the "is cheating abusive" discussion with other posters here. That is off topic for this thread. You're welcome to create your own thread to discuss it if you really want to.

Edited December 4, 2020 by mark clemson

[Amethyst68]

52 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

For example, there are plenty of women out there who tolerate cheating husbands in return for a good lifestyle. Happens all the time.

It happens the other way too, men who stay married to serial cheaters. 

In these cases though the spouses know what they're getting and have determined it's a fair trade or at least the price is one they're prepared to pay. I'd imagine the number gets higher the older the couples get.

It is harder for an older woman to start anew. It's a fact, it's harder to get a job and yes to find someone to date, especially since men in their age group are generally looking for someone younger (I'm going on anecdotal evidence here). I'd also never discount any cultural pressures which may be in play.

It can be so easy to look from the outside in and shout 'leave'. So I'm not arguing about people staying married for many of the reasons you've mentioned. IMO it's the deceit that's the sticking point here. 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Amethyst68

[Starswillshine]

13 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

So that WAS your situation? (You never actually say.) If so, good for you.

I do disagree with your point, I think you were just fortunate. Plenty of women with kids bat around the dating market while being attractive and employed and never make it to remarriage.  It's easy for the Elon Musks of the world to say "anyone can be a success in business", but REALITY of course is that the vast majority who actually try fail.

 

I've had the "is cheating abusive" discussion with other posters here. That is off topic for this thread. You're welcome to create your own thread to discuss it if you really want to.

Yes, I am very aware of your very extreme scenarios you have used to MAYBE justify an affair. 

You don't want a divorce/Can't divorce? Invest in yourself, appropriate friendships, etc. Cheating is never a solution. I stick firm in this. 

[elaine567]

8 minutes ago, Amethyst68 said:

In these cases though the spouses know what they're getting and have determined it's a fair trade or at least the price is one they're prepared to pay. I'd imagine the number gets higher the older the couples get

I am not sure if that is true. It seems to me many younger women stay due to kids and not being in a very financially secure state.
Also love plays a a part as well as wanting to not give up on their marriage. Many younger women do not have the confidence or resources to branch out alone with a few kids in tow...
Older women may not be put off by the lack of guys to date, some are fed up of men anyway, being with a cheating man can take its toll...

[Starswillshine]

22 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

So that WAS your situation? (You never actually say.) If so, good for you.

Not exactly. My husband didn't pity me, I would have sensed that and ran away. He wasn't miserable with me. Im pretty certain I could call right now and offer him a chance at reconciling and he would be at my door step. I was unemployed mom of 4 when he cheated. As a result, I became extremely depressed, anxious, and paranoid and still struggling daily in this.  I have full custody of the 4 kids. I am not emoloyed... will be another 2 years before so. Attractiveness is something that is completely subjective. At the time I started dating my BF, I was severely underweight due to the stress of the affair discovery and divorce. Some might say that was extremely unattractive. Somehow, I was able to be with someone who was a much better, all the way around, man to me than my husband ever was. 

So in some ways, you can pat yourself on the back and say his affair was a great thing... because I divorced his rear and found better.