The 40 Year-Old Virgin

[Harry Haller]

Have you ever seen that movie starring Steve Carell?  Funny movie, huh?  NOT WHEN THAT'S YOUR F---KING LIFE.  (Except Steve had a happy ending.)

I grew up in a religious home, in the suburbs of a large US city.  I attended a religious school in grade school and jr. high.  Went to church, etc.  There was no sex-ed of any kind.  Parents never talked about sex-ed or dating or anything.  Never heard anything at school, except occasional negative information.  Peers never talked about such topics.  Like a taboo subject.  Only thing I heard was from church: "premarital sex is sin. Must wait for marriage", etc.  That is meaningless information for a 13 year old.

Boys and girls were de-facto segregated when and where I grew up.  Boys played with boys, girls with girls.  There was no mixing between the sexes.  Nobody really said to segregate, but everyone just knew to be this way, and was.  What was I supposed to do at and after puberty?  How to relate to girls?  I never learned anything.  How do I talk to girls?  No one taught me anything. How is someone supposed to learn?  Society, schools and parents are intent on making sure kids learn academic subjects, but learning to relate to the opposite sex?  NO!   Its like a paradox: without experience, I can't talk to women and get a date, without dates I can't get experience with women.

I have had almost no women show interest in me, that I am aware of.  I have asked out women I thought showed the most interest in me.  They turned me down.  It appears some women will be very friendly, even flirtatious, with a guy, but have no romantic interest or intention.  I'd guess another 5% of women are actually afraid or fearful or nervous of me, even without me showing any type of interest in them or saying or doing anything.  For all other women, I might as well be invisible.

It seems women are asexual.  Society is mostly asexual, but especially women.  This is ironic to me because pop music and pop culture is often hyper sexual.

I have had men show interest in me, young and old.  Some men have given me explicit propositions. I am not interested in men.

How do I talk to women?  Even if I could get a date with a women, then what do I do, where do I go?  I have no idea.  I have avoided some other women simply because I have no idea what to do.  I have seen lots of mention of the word "relationship".  It sounds like this is what women want, but I don't know what that is. At the same time, women are asexual?  

On this topic I frequently just feel pain.  When I see a very attractive/beautiful woman, I often just feel pain.  Sometimes this pain is so bad, it feels like physical pain.

Recently, there is a woman around where I am.  She smiles, is friendly, says "hi" to me.  We say a few words.  She is very attractive.  When I see her, I get that adrenaline feeling.  More like a fight-or-flight feeling.  I'd like to talk to her, ask her out, but I have no idea how.  This is feeling like a repeat of previous times with women.  How to talk to her?  I want to.  I also think of just avoiding her, ignoring her, just to avoid this difficulty.

tl;dr: sorry for cluttering your forum with this long, crazy post.

 

 

[Happy Lemming]

How can we help?? Do you want to learn how to approach a woman?? What to talk about?? How to chit-chat??

Of course there is going to be rejection.  ALL MEN  have been rejected at one point or another, you have to let it roll off of you and continue on to the next. 

There isn't an instant fix. You will slowly have to learn the skillz most men learned at a younger age.  It isn't an impossible task, but it is a journey.

 

[Harry Haller]

32 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

How can we help?? Do you want to learn how to approach a woman?? What to talk about?? How to chit-chat??

Of course there is going to be rejection.  ALL MEN  have been rejected at one point or another, you have to let it roll off of you and continue on to the next. 

There isn't an instant fix. You will slowly have to learn the skillz most men learned at a younger age.  It isn't an impossible task, but it is a journey.

 

Um, Yes? 

I am confused about women who show interest in me (or so I think) but then reject me when I ask them out. 

I just have no idea about how to talk to women at this point.  I've vary rarely talked to women.  I can't think of what to say that would interest them.  Especially with the intention of getting a date.  And then if I did get a date, what would I do?  What would I say?  Where would I go? 

Of course, this discussion doesn't even take into account the raging pandemic that is happening right now and the difficulty of doing anything.

 

[Happy Lemming]

First off... Yes, the pandemic has basically screwed everything up.  If I wasn't in a long term relationship, my skillz would be useless during this pandemic.

Can you give me an overview of what public venues are open in your area and not Covid-19 restricted??

I've been dating about 40 years.  It was a learning process, but one thing I had to learn was how to read women and tell when they were not interested.  Did she smile? Is she sharing in the conversation? Little clues as to whether you are doing OK or if its time to bail and move on to the next woman. You do need more practice reading women, but this pandemic (and the wearing of masks) will make that near impossible.

I taught myself to chit-chat with everyone.  Make conversation about the "here and now" what is actually relevant at that very moment.  You can tell if a woman is wants to continue the conversation or brush you off.

I can certainly share personal examples if you wish, but I don't want to clog up your thread.  If you want me to continue with some of my personal stories and examples, I'll be glad to share, please ask.  Or are you looking for more generalities??

[Harry Haller]

22 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

First off... Yes, the pandemic has basically screwed everything up.  If I wasn't in a long term relationship, my skillz would be useless during this pandemic.

Can you give me an overview of what public venues are open in your area and not Covid-19 restricted??

I've been dating about 40 years.  It was a learning process, but one thing I had to learn was how to read women and tell when they were not interested.  Did she smile? Is she sharing in the conversation? Little clues as to whether you are doing OK or if its time to bail and move on to the next woman. You do need more practice reading women, but this pandemic (and the wearing of masks) will make that near impossible.

I taught myself to chit-chat with everyone.  Make conversation about the "here and now" what is actually relevant at that very moment.  You can tell if a woman is wants to continue the conversation or brush you off.

I can certainly share personal examples if you wish, but I don't want to clog up your thread.  If you want me to continue with some of my personal stories and examples, I'll be glad to share, please ask.  Or are you looking for more generalities??

The pandemic?  Well, go outside and everything is at your own risk.  We are in a pseudo-lockdown, but the officials are too chickensh_t to make it official.  Certainly, bars, restaurants, etc are closed.

I think I am very observant and know what is going on.  Like I said, probably 95% of women don't see me, 5% are afraid or nervous around me, and maybe 0.01% of women show interest in me.  I think there is something wrong with women and many people in general.  Women seem asexual.  Society is asexual.  Many people are preoccupied with their cell phones.  I think there is something especially wrong with the women in my area: middle to upper-middle class, educated, suburban women.  That is a large class of women.

I may be guilty of overthinking.  I can think, but I can't find anything to say or talk about with women.   And to the point, there has to be some way of talking to women when there is some romantic/sexual interest.  Random chit-chat is just that.  Not furthering some romantic/sexual interest.  And even than, I don't know any chit-chat.  Most of the "here and now" is just so dull, uninteresting, routine, I can't think of anything to say.  I don't think I have much shared interest with anyone.

In my first post, I mentioned there is an attractive, friendly woman around where I am, right now.  She seems interested in me (or so I think).  But I can't think of anything to say to further things along.  To use another film reference, I feel like Charton Heston in Planet of the Apes.  He wants to talk, communicate, but can't. 

 

 

 

 

[basil67]

If you can't do random chit chat with a woman, she's not going to have romantic/sexual interest in you.    Being able to have an engaging conversation is the very beginning of how you connect.   Having a simple conversation is the crawling before you walk.  And romance is the running after you've mastered the first two things.

How well do you connect with men in a friendship sense?   Do you have mates?  If so, what do you talk about?   And what is your conversation with their wives/girlfriends like?

How did you come to the conclusion that woman are asexual?   

[Happy Lemming]

12 minutes ago, Harry Haller said:

 But I can't think of anything to say to further things along. 

Local events... local "feel good" news stories... Latest new restaurant that opened in your area... Local new coffee shop... Local band playing in your area... Local comedy club, piano bar or theater... Local Covid-19 restrictions... Talk about what is happening in your immediate area, ask for her opinion, etc.

And yes Covid-19 is messing up dating, but that doesn't mean that you can't practice talking with your friend about various subjects and learning the art of chit-chatting with a woman.

And lets stop with the "Asexual" comments.  Women are having sex with men. Individuals in this society are having sex. 

[Harry Haller]

55 minutes ago, basil67 said:

If you can't do random chit chat with a woman, she's not going to have romantic/sexual interest in you.    Being able to have an engaging conversation is the very beginning of how you connect.   Having a simple conversation is the crawling before you walk.  And romance is the running after you've mastered the first two things.

How well do you connect with men in a friendship sense?   Do you have mates?  If so, what do you talk about?   And what is your conversation with their wives/girlfriends like?

How did you come to the conclusion that woman are asexual?   

Mates?  No.  I have no connections with men.  I have no idea what people talk about these days.

My conclusion that women are asexual just comes from life experience, observation.  At least the women in my area.  Women haven't shown me any genuine interest.  If any women have been interested in me, they never told me, or expressed it in any way.  And not just women's reaction to me.  My observation/experience is women doing anything or everything other than or expressing interest in romance/sex.  Women are interested in school, work, shopping, sports, TV, whatever, just not romance/sex.  Also, I never observe women talking about any romance/sex related topic.  Not to men or other women.  I've never heard such discussions from family members, or any other groups I have been around.

I'm not entirely serious that women are asexual.  But, I feel this often does describe the current state of things.

Your first paragraph somewhat confirms that women are mostly asexual.  Women can't think of romance/sex, have attraction, without specific, lengthy conditions being met.  I don't really know what you mean by "connect".

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Harry Haller

[basil67]

6 minutes ago, Harry Haller said:

Your first paragraph somewhat confirms that women are mostly asexual.  Women can't think of romance/sex, have attraction, without specific, lengthy conditions being met.  I don't really know what you mean by "connect".

I don't know about 'specific, lengthy conditions'...I had sex with my husband on the day we met.  While I didn't think of romance and sex with him straight away, the ease with which we chatted made me think about more than just 'chit chat' quite quickly.    Though to be fair, some women will find a man hot enough that they instantly think of sex.   

I'm curious about one thing though.  If you don't like talking with and spending time around people, why would you want a girlfriend?   Sounds like you'd dislike pretty much everything she'd do.   Why not just hire a sex worker to get your physical needs met?   They are the perfect answer for those who struggle to/have no interest in spending time with others.

[Foxhall]

3 hours ago, Harry Haller said:

It seems women are asexual

I can relate to a lot of your post there. I went to an all boys school which put me years behind when it came to meeting girls and on top of that I was naturally very shy also,

in my 20s I remained useless at talking to women, however I still had brief relationships and sexual encounters, I suppose mainly because I had guy friends who were good with women and effectively put women my way,

I happened to lose these male friends around age 28 and what followed I did not get a sniff of a woman from about 28 to 33.

I eventually got out of the rut though- I developed other interests worked at improving conversation skills-just having knowledge of what was going on and being able to hold conversations on different topics,

making friends with women is a good starting point- I found I connected better with women from other cultures than my own in recent years and while it is hard to turn friendship into an actual relationship a person with time becomes more confident ,

holding conversations and making friends is a good starting point- dont appear to be too anxious- give a relaxed vibe.

Id consider myself a late developer- at 40 now- I should be married with kids I suppose instead of talking about girlfriends- but its good to have gotten to a point whereby I am more confident with women.

this girlfriend I have calls me shyboy and so on, especially when Im meeting her friends and things- if your on the shy side its not easy to shake that at our age.

still you can make a go of it though with a little effort.

finally the point I highlighted above there- they do give that asexual appearance dont they, I always used to think that, but in reality most women once you get friendly or find rapport with them they are completely the opposite- they are very sexual,

just a matter of making them feel comfortable with you, for now just try to hold conversations make a few women friends and the rest should follow.

have you ever tried massage?- never know who you might meet

 

 

 

[Voivoda]

Hello, sir. It seems like you have a social anxiety. No problem, you can overcome it, I think most of us have it to a certain extend. Just go talk to random people. Start at your own pace or talk to one random person a day about anything, then increase the numbers. You should feel confortable when talking to new people, that's how it should be. Meeting women should be natural and once you have those natural conversations, then you ask those girls that you feel any connection to go out. MOST will probably say no, but some will agree and few might like you back.

There are many self-help books, but you need to leave your confort zone and overcome that. There is a guy on youtube called Coray Wayne and offers a free book, so might help

Option 2: Get drunk and go to a prostitute

Best of luck

 

[SumGuy]

12 hours ago, Harry Haller said:

Mates?  No.  I have no connections with men.  I have no idea what people talk about these days.

People talk about the news, a lot of men talk about sports, people talk about their hobbies and what interest them.  In general a good conversation topic is something people are passionate about.  They may talk about this thing they did the really liked, or really disliked (passion is not always positive).

Sometimes it can get personal, your upbringing sounds like something that strongly impacted you and you could talk "passionately" about.  Not that people want to discuss such a deep subject right off, but plenty of people have messed up childhoods, it can be a shared topic in the right setting, perhaps a support group.

Quote

My conclusion that women are asexual just comes from life experience, observation.  At least the women in my area.  ....Also, I never observe women talking about any romance/sex related topic.  Not to men or other women.  I've never heard such discussions from family members, or any other groups I have been around.

On the first part where do you live?  I suspect your upbringing has taught you women are not that interested in sex, sex is a taboo subject.  Woman are interested in sex.

Just because you don't hear women talking about sex and romance in front of you doesn't mean they are asexual.   You are drawing inapposite conclusions from your limited and selective observations.  Based on your description of your family, of course sex and romance were not discussed.  I'm not sure how common such discussions really are except for the warning type...use protection...don't have sex, etc.

Quote

Women can't think of romance/sex, have attraction, without specific, lengthy conditions being met.  I don't really know what you mean by "connect".

I too wonder what these specific lengthy conditions are...guess it depends on what you think is specific and lengthy.   There is plenty of websites that can describe connection, it is similar to that feeling of camaraderie or comfort one feels with a friend, a feeling you can share interests, that you see the world (at least in part) in the same or complimentary ways.  A person who was raised the same way you were would be better able to connect, to understand, your experience.

It is really a very simple thing, a very basic thing, it is the part apart from physical attraction.  And it is a very easy thing if one does not try to force it or overthink it.  Combine physical attraction with connection and you have chemistry.

[kismetkismet]

17 hours ago, Harry Haller said:

I am confused about women who show interest in me (or so I think) but then reject me when I ask them out.

I saw an article or something on this recently and often this is partly because of a difference between how males and females approach friendship differently.

Men are traditionally raised not to have emotional connections or express affection with their friends, whereas women have very strong emotional connections with their friends and are verbally and sometimes physically affectionate with their friends. Because men aren't used to having emotional/affectionate relationships with their friends, they misconstrue female friendship as romantic interest. That's not on you, it's understandably confusing and it's garbage that men are often raised not to have that kind of connection with their friends. 

Have you tried online dating? The cues can be difficult to interpret in person, but with online dating you at least know that the intention is to find romantic connection. 

 

[mark clemson]

Make yourself as attractive as possible. Women are not asexual (most) but many ARE choosey. IF you can pull it off, being "a man who could have any woman he wants" would help you out a great deal. Getting as close to that as you can will probably help you a lot.

Social and conversational skills/"personality", confidence, and having a place in society/respectable career, not just looks, are a big part of this for women. Body language is a BIG think for some WOMEN as well. You want to come across as a leader-type/alpha male but ALSO a nice friendly guy who she can warm up to. Nothing works for ALL women, but "getting" and applying all of this put the odds better in your favor. What do you want (ideally) - an awesome babe. Turn the camera around - what does she want (ideally) - an awesome guy. Try to BE an awesome guy.

Beyond that, I think if you strike up a genuine but casual conversation, ending it with some compliments and suggesting a "coffee date" might work well, rather than asking them out. The point of a coffee date is to get to know each other a bit better and then, if you're both still on board, set up a "real" date. (And you may need to explain that.) IF she really likes you she might want to go straight to the real date, but IME often women are ok with taking things a bit slower.

[Harry Haller]

17 hours ago, basil67 said:

I don't know about 'specific, lengthy conditions'...I had sex with my husband on the day we met.  While I didn't think of romance and sex with him straight away, the ease with which we chatted made me think about more than just 'chit chat' quite quickly.    Though to be fair, some women will find a man hot enough that they instantly think of sex.   

I'm curious about one thing though.  If you don't like talking with and spending time around people, why would you want a girlfriend?   Sounds like you'd dislike pretty much everything she'd do.   Why not just hire a sex worker to get your physical needs met?   They are the perfect answer for those who struggle to/have no interest in spending time with others.

Sex on first day meeting?  I guess that is the exception, not the rule. 

I did not say that I don't like talking and spending time around people.  What I wrote was that I have trouble finding anything to talk about or find anything in common with people, especially women.  I would like to spend time with others.  I just can't figure out what to say, what to do.  This does cause me some frustration, pain, etc.  To the extent that I avoid women, it is because I can't think of anything to say or do, avoid failure.

I'd want a girlfriend for obvious reasons, sex, companionship, etc.  What else gf/bf do?  I don't know.  Prostitute?  I wouldn't know where to find one.  Its illegal, and I would want more that that.

 

[Harry Haller]

5 hours ago, kismetkismet said:

I saw an article or something on this recently and often this is partly because of a difference between how males and females approach friendship differently.

Men are traditionally raised not to have emotional connections or express affection with their friends, whereas women have very strong emotional connections with their friends and are verbally and sometimes physically affectionate with their friends. Because men aren't used to having emotional/affectionate relationships with their friends, they misconstrue female friendship as romantic interest. That's not on you, it's understandably confusing and it's garbage that men are often raised not to have that kind of connection with their friends. 

Have you tried online dating? The cues can be difficult to interpret in person, but with online dating you at least know that the intention is to find romantic connection. 

 

This is an interesting idea.  I won't say its wrong.  But it raises more questions for me.  How could women not understand that an emotional/affectionate "friends only" relationship be misconstrued as romantic interest?   Aren't romantic relationships emotional, affectionate, physical?   Women wouldn't understand that if emotional/affection/physical is directed at a man it would be very similar to romantic interest?  And then misconstrued?  I imagine an asexual woman could misunderstand this.  What is the difference for these women between a romantic relationship and platonic friendship if they are both emotional/affectionate/physical?

Its interesting that you bring this topic up.  I did have a female friend some years ago.  I thought she was flirting and much more interested in me than just friends.  I did misconstrue the situation.  She just wanted to be friends. 

I did try some online dating a long time ago.  I sent out 100+ messages trying to get a response.  I got stood up twice. I did get a couple of dates with a woman, but that didn't go anywhere.  Online dating seems like more effort and trouble than it is worth.

 

[ZA Dater]

As someone in the same boar, albeit 4 year younger I know how you feel to an extent. MY suggestion to you is read some of the advice here carefully, not all of it will work but a lot of it will make you feel better as a person.

If you remove the whole big sex issue out of dating what do you really have, in my view just two people who find each other useful in a tangible and intangible way. In my opinion your first step would be getting into the friendzone, you might actually find that a decent step forward in the sense that lady will actually give you the social attention you have not had.

 

[kismetkismet]

 

15 hours ago, Harry Haller said:

 How could women not understand that an emotional/affectionate "friends only" relationship be misconstrued as romantic interest?   Aren't romantic relationships emotional, affectionate, physical?   Women wouldn't understand that if emotional/affection/physical is directed at a man it would be very similar to romantic interest? 

 

Because emotional connection is the norm in female friendship. That's just how we connect with people, talking about our lives, our feelings, etc. And we express our positive feelings for people and compliment them regularly. That's not romantic to us, that's just friendship. Women don't realize that men will misconstrue that for the exact same reasons that men DO misconstrue it. We are used to how we do friendship, and men are used to how they do friendship. Women often don't realize that emotional connection isn't the norm in male friendships while men don't realize how common emotional connection is for us. 

PHYSICAL affection between genders can usually be interpreted as flirting though even though women are often physically affectionate with each other without it being romantic. 

Basically you just shouldn't assume that a friend has romantic interest in you unless it is EXPRESSLY romantic. If you can't tell what is romantic and what isn't, I suggest trying out dating apps so that it takes that confusion out of it. Women are absolutely not asexual, you just aren't great at picking up on social/romantic cues. 

[Fletch Lives]

So you want to date? It's not really that complicated. Talk to women........and if you are not sure you will see her again, get her phone number......ask out to dinner, movies, or whatever.....then kiss the girl at the end of the date. Wash, rinse, and repeat. Keep doing that until you find one who wants to keep seeing you. The rest will take care of itself. It''s not rocket science!

[elaine567]

On 12/3/2020 at 5:54 AM, Harry Haller said:

Mates?  No.  I have no connections with men.  I have no idea what people talk about these days.

Having grown up in an all male environment, why do you have no male friends?
Where do you work? Do you not have any contact with co workers?

[clia]

19 hours ago, Harry Haller said:

I did not say that I don't like talking and spending time around people.  What I wrote was that I have trouble finding anything to talk about or find anything in common with people, especially women.  I would like to spend time with others.  I just can't figure out what to say, what to do.  This does cause me some frustration, pain, etc.  To the extent that I avoid women, it is because I can't think of anything to say or do, avoid failure.

In your opening post, you blame your upbringing for your situation.  What have you been doing over the past 22 years, since you turned 18?  Do you work?  Do you live on your own?  Do you have hobbies, friends, do you do volunteer work, play sports, etc.?  Do you socialize with anyone?  What do you do to try to make friends or meet women?  What do you do for fun?  Have you gone to therapy?  I'm asking these questions because you say you can't find anything in common with anyone, can't figure out what to do or say around others, etc. which seems to indicate that you have some socialization problems, which are likely at the root of your problems.  

[Harry Haller]

8 hours ago, Fletch Lives said:

So you want to date? It's not really that complicated. Talk to women........and if you are not sure you will see her again, get her phone number......ask out to dinner, movies, or whatever.....then kiss the girl at the end of the date. Wash, rinse, and repeat. Keep doing that until you find one who wants to keep seeing you. The rest will take care of itself. It''s not rocket science!

Thanks for the advice.  Sounds simple and easy.  Talking to them is the problem.

[Harry Haller]

8 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Having grown up in an all male environment, why do you have no male friends?
Where do you work? Do you not have any contact with co workers?

I had some male friends many years ago.  But just drifted away from them, people move away, and didn't feel I had much in common with them.

In all the jobs I've had, the workers are almost entirely male.  There are usually a few women working in the office areas, but the production work that I do is all male.  At my current job, a number of the men seem to be loners like me, keep to themselves.  A number of others are ethnic, and speak in their own language.  No one speaks to each other much except for actual work topics.  No one speaks to me much except work topics.

 

[Harry Haller]

7 hours ago, clia said:

In your opening post, you blame your upbringing for your situation.  What have you been doing over the past 22 years, since you turned 18?  Do you work?  Do you live on your own?  Do you have hobbies, friends, do you do volunteer work, play sports, etc.?  Do you socialize with anyone?  What do you do to try to make friends or meet women?  What do you do for fun?  Have you gone to therapy?  I'm asking these questions because you say you can't find anything in common with anyone, can't figure out what to do or say around others, etc. which seems to indicate that you have some socialization problems, which are likely at the root of your problems.  

I did have some friends and went out with them from time to time when I was younger.   But that was a long time ago.  I do work now.  I live with my parents.  So, a first-class looser here.  Actually, I could live by myself, maybe.  But, I hate this area.  The cost of housing is very high.  Moving somewhere with lower cost of housing might get me a 1-hour commute to work.  I do feel trapped here.  I think of moving to a different area.  I've not done therapy.

I have hobbies, nothing that anyone else is interested in.  Certainly not women.  I don't go out much (ignoring the pandemic).  Really there isn't much to do in this area.  Its the suburbs.  Any direction I go, suburbs, solid for 20 miles.  Housing developments, restaurants, and shopping centers.  That's about it.  Because the cost of housing is so high, there probably aren't that many single people around here.  A couple could get by.  I'm guessing any women my age, in this area, is probably married or attached, hard to afford otherwise. Although I have no data on it.

I have some family in my age group.  They are married, have kids.  When people get married, have kids, that becomes their life.  They don't have time for adult topics.  Everything is dominated by kids, which is not in my interests.  I think it would be difficult for me to relate to other people who are my age that have children, which is most people at ~40.

 

[Chilli]

Forget that area , your in your 40s , you need to move the hell out and start making a life of your own or what your living now , will be your life and nothing will change.

Pretty simple choice in my book.

Money , affordability , distances, choices, all things any 20yr old , 1/2 your age, deal with for yrs when they first move out. Face the music and start looking . Something will be workable and you'll probably even struggle for awhile , so what , that's what making your own way is all about. Besides , doesn't even sound like there'd be any singles within miles and miles of where you are anyway, You need a new life new environment new people and to be out in the world on your own like other 40yr olds , it's the natural scheme of life.