The 40 Year-Old Virgin

[Wiseman2]

On 12/2/2020 at 11:53 PM, Harry Haller said:

, I feel like Charton Heston in Planet of the Apes.  He wants to talk, communicate, but can't.

Ok, good insight, good analogy.

You have identified the problem. You don't see women as just plain people but rather some strange alien species.

Once you get some therapy to unpack, sort and explore this, you'll be able to challenge these cognitive distortions and learn more positive behaviors to put in place

Would you call what you were brought up in a cult or a very restrictive/conservative setting?

[QuietRiot]

On 12/2/2020 at 9:17 PM, Harry Haller said:

Have you ever seen that movie starring Steve Carell?  Funny movie, huh?  NOT WHEN THAT'S YOUR F---KING LIFE.  (Except Steve had a happy ending.)

I grew up in a religious home, in the suburbs of a large US city.  I attended a religious school in grade school and jr. high.  Went to church, etc.  There was no sex-ed of any kind.  Parents never talked about sex-ed or dating or anything.  Never heard anything at school, except occasional negative information.  Peers never talked about such topics.  Like a taboo subject.  Only thing I heard was from church: "premarital sex is sin. Must wait for marriage", etc.  That is meaningless information for a 13 year old.

Boys and girls were de-facto segregated when and where I grew up.  Boys played with boys, girls with girls.  There was no mixing between the sexes.  Nobody really said to segregate, but everyone just knew to be this way, and was.  What was I supposed to do at and after puberty?  How to relate to girls?  I never learned anything.  How do I talk to girls?  No one taught me anything. How is someone supposed to learn?  Society, schools and parents are intent on making sure kids learn academic subjects, but learning to relate to the opposite sex?  NO!   Its like a paradox: without experience, I can't talk to women and get a date, without dates I can't get experience with women.

I have had almost no women show interest in me, that I am aware of.  I have asked out women I thought showed the most interest in me.  They turned me down.  It appears some women will be very friendly, even flirtatious, with a guy, but have no romantic interest or intention.  I'd guess another 5% of women are actually afraid or fearful or nervous of me, even without me showing any type of interest in them or saying or doing anything.  For all other women, I might as well be invisible.

It seems women are asexual.  Society is mostly asexual, but especially women.  This is ironic to me because pop music and pop culture is often hyper sexual.

I have had men show interest in me, young and old.  Some men have given me explicit propositions. I am not interested in men.

How do I talk to women?  Even if I could get a date with a women, then what do I do, where do I go?  I have no idea.  I have avoided some other women simply because I have no idea what to do.  I have seen lots of mention of the word "relationship".  It sounds like this is what women want, but I don't know what that is. At the same time, women are asexual?  

On this topic I frequently just feel pain.  When I see a very attractive/beautiful woman, I often just feel pain.  Sometimes this pain is so bad, it feels like physical pain.

Recently, there is a woman around where I am.  She smiles, is friendly, says "hi" to me.  We say a few words.  She is very attractive.  When I see her, I get that adrenaline feeling.  More like a fight-or-flight feeling.  I'd like to talk to her, ask her out, but I have no idea how.  This is feeling like a repeat of previous times with women.  How to talk to her?  I want to.  I also think of just avoiding her, ignoring her, just to avoid this difficulty.

tl;dr: sorry for cluttering your forum with this long, crazy post.

 

 

Funny...I was this guy at least until my late 20s when I had my first girlfriend and sexual experience. I grew up as a young adult, actually wanting to wait until marriage due to religious convictions like yourself. Then when I reached my mid to late 20s, I was like 'Crap, what if I never get married".

Considering my dating life in college and in my 20s in general, mostly consisted of getting friend zoned. Not even a FWB situation. I recall getting into some mutual arrangement with a woman to do back massages on each other (she was an upstairs suite mate), which I thought was the green light to make a more intimate move, only to get rejected.

Saw this article:

https://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/27/why-young-christians-arent-waiting-anymore/

People aren't waiting anymore, because there was a time where Christians married right after high school graduation or just on the cusp of the legal drinking age. Now, that's not much of a thing anymore...as people are marrying much later...IF they marry at all.

Also, I recall an old blog entry of a woman over 40 that was a virgin...still...and complained that it was rather unfair for her to hold off on sex at THAT age (40) anymore. That a lot of her friends, who married in their 20s, were experiencing sex or were even sexually active with their engaged partners.   It's like, someone can wait for only SO long to remain chaste, and then are like 'Screw it, I'm done waiting!" 

[Chilli]

 

l can understand the convictions in all that but yeah if you turned around 30 or 40 and still weren't married then it's a bit of a shame the person has denied themselves such a natural thing through the best part of their lives,

You'd probably be amazed at what women might be thinking op , in split seconds on sight and all . Don't you worry it's alllll going on in there , moreso than men half the time, But eh they aren't gonna advertise that to ya at the time. l really think though getting yourself outa there and so being forced into getting a life will give you as good kick start as therapy or anything else , or combined with. l'd suggest thinking too much about what to talk about would only robot you up too much anyway too. You really don't have to worry about much of that sort of thing when you click or hit it off with someone things just flow all their own anyway if you just relax. l think it's pretty good advice to start making a habit of just talking to people any ol time out and about too, ypu'd be amazed at how easier and casual it becomes once you start to relax.

Good luck anyway in which ever paths you end up taking.,

Edited December 5, 2020 by Chilli

[Harry Haller]

10 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Ok, good insight, good analogy.

You have identified the problem. You don't see women as just plain people but rather some strange alien species.

Once you get some therapy to unpack, sort and explore this, you'll be able to challenge these cognitive distortions and learn more positive behaviors to put in place

Would you call what you were brought up in a cult or a very restrictive/conservative setting?

I don't see women as a strange alien species.  But I do see them as different.  Like a different cultural group at least.  One of the other members posted a good explanation in the thread above, for how men can mistake female friendship for romantic interest.  This is one example.  How men and women think and behave regarding sex, romance, dating, etc.  There are some differences there.   If women were just plain people, then women are just like men?  If that were true, things would be much easier.

No not a cult.  But somewhat more conservative than average.  Attending a religious school, it is somewhat more conservative than a casual church.  There were a few cult-like aspects to it.  That religious environment, they feel separate from and oppressed by "secular" society, like secular society is evil and its influences should be avoided.  I left religion when I was a teen, and didn't look back.

[Harry Haller]

10 hours ago, QuietRiot said:

Funny...I was this guy at least until my late 20s when I had my first girlfriend and sexual experience. I grew up as a young adult, actually wanting to wait until marriage due to religious convictions like yourself. Then when I reached my mid to late 20s, I was like 'Crap, what if I never get married".

Considering my dating life in college and in my 20s in general, mostly consisted of getting friend zoned. Not even a FWB situation. I recall getting into some mutual arrangement with a woman to do back massages on each other (she was an upstairs suite mate), which I thought was the green light to make a more intimate move, only to get rejected.

Saw this article:

https://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/27/why-young-christians-arent-waiting-anymore/

People aren't waiting anymore, because there was a time where Christians married right after high school graduation or just on the cusp of the legal drinking age. Now, that's not much of a thing anymore...as people are marrying much later...IF they marry at all.

Also, I recall an old blog entry of a woman over 40 that was a virgin...still...and complained that it was rather unfair for her to hold off on sex at THAT age (40) anymore. That a lot of her friends, who married in their 20s, were experiencing sex or were even sexually active with their engaged partners.   It's like, someone can wait for only SO long to remain chaste, and then are like 'Screw it, I'm done waiting!" 

I am not religious now.  By 18, I didn't have any religious belief.   I have no reason to wait.  Even when I was a younger teen, I wasn't "saving myself" for religious reasons.  I would have had sex if I could have and very much wanted to.  But just didn't know how to make it happen as a result of not learning and no one was teaching me and other factors.

Religion does give people faulty ideas and beliefs.  It is unfortunate.  The article you linked to is interesting.  Christianity is having to deal with reality. 

[basil67]

1 hour ago, Harry Haller said:

How men and women think and behave regarding sex, romance, dating, etc.  There are some differences there.   If women were just plain people, then women are just like men?  If that were true, things would be much easier.

You've just placed maleness as being the default for personality.  Truth is, there is no such thing as a 'plain' human.  No matter what the gender, we're all complex and have various needs and wants from life.  

 

1 hour ago, Harry Haller said:

 But just didn't know how to make it happen as a result of not learning and no one was teaching me and other factors.

Most of us had nobody teaching us - we got on with it using trial and error.  Even those who went to single sex schools would socialise with the opposite sex at parties.   Do you think there could be more at play regarding you struggling to connect with others?  Perhaps the way you connect is a bit atypical?

[Harry Haller]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

You've just placed maleness as being the default for personality.  Truth is, there is no such thing as a 'plain' human.  No matter what the gender, we're all complex and have various needs and wants from life.  

 

Most of us had nobody teaching us - we got on with it using trial and error.  Even those who went to single sex schools would socialise with the opposite sex at parties.   Do you think there could be more at play regarding you struggling to connect with others?  Perhaps the way you connect is a bit atypical?

I was asking a hypothetical question using the phrase from another poster.  Wiseman2 used the phrase "just plain people".  I don't think that is true anyway, as far as I can tell.  I think there are differences between men and women, like somewhat different cultural groups.  Do you think men and women are the same or there are differences between them?  Especially in the areas of communication, relationships, romance, sex drives, etc?

Its good that you had some way to socialize with people of the opposite sex, went to parties, etc.  My upbringing was pretty isolating.  As I wrote in my first post, there was a sort of de-facto segregation between boys and girls when I was young.  Not sure why that was.  Just how it was.

The thing about religious school vs public school. In public school the classes and grade levels are large and the students are all from a small geographic area. Students can easily socialize with each other outside school.   With the religious school I went to, there were less than 10 students in my grade level.  And the students commuted from a very wide area.  Socializing outside of school rarely happened because everyone lived far from others.  There were some kids in my neighborhood, but we moved several times.  Each time moving, it was like starting over. 

I don't really connect with anyone, so I can't say much if I am atypical.  I'm not really sure what a typical connection between people is.  Not connecting might make me atypical, but how, I don't know.

[SumGuy]

12 hours ago, Harry Haller said:

....  Do you think men and women are the same or there are differences between them?  Especially in the areas of communication, relationships, romance, sex drives, etc?....

You can start bucketing things by gender and you can get two distributions of traits, one for men and one for women (even assuming this can be done in an unbiased manner).  Will theses exactly line up?  Unlikely, so technically there is a difference, but is it material, is it even causative?  That doesn't support the argument men are from mars and women are from venus, :),  because generally there is a huge overlap in these distributions bucketed by gender.  You would likely see the same amount of difference if you just bucketed people based on other factors, like living east or west of the Mississippi.   Add in that if you start looking at individual variation within a sex, these variations are far larger than the variations between the global average of men vs. women.

It is good to realize that men and women have different experiences in life and perceive situations differently from the nature of society.  I would not presume though that there is some fundamental biological difference.  You are going to have more variation in communication and relationships I believe from culture and family of origin than chromosomes.

[Yosemite]

What do you spend your money on? Do your parents charge you rent? If yes, why not get your own place and pay rent there instead? If your parents don't charge you rent, where does all your money go?

Instead of thinking of women as asexual and vastly different from men, you should think of yourself as asexual and vastly different from the majority of men and women. After all, most everybody who wants to has had sex by age 40, most everybody has the ability to form romantic and non-romantic relationships with the opposite sex by age 40, most everybody can form friendships with people in their own gender. Since you're unable to do what the vast majority of people can do, it seems like the rational thing to do would be to recognize that the issue lies with you.

There are lots of things you can try from counseling to meet-ups to moving out to your place, but if you don't accept that you're the one that needs to change mentally and emotionally, you're not likely to see any results.

Do you even want your life to change? Because change is not comfortable and it's not easy...it's going to take a lot of work to make your life different. Is that something you even want to do? 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Yosemite

[Miss Spider]

More similarities than differences, especially when you consider things outside of topics and like sex and relationships. Then you just see two groups of people with overlapping interests. 

[basil67]

Yes.  If you were to illustrate what SSLL wrote, the connection between men and women would be a venn diagram.   But taking it further, no two people are the same, so all of us have some degree of venn diagram with other people around us.

Edited December 6, 2020 by basil67

[Harry Haller]

9 hours ago, Yosemite said:

What do you spend your money on? Do your parents charge you rent? If yes, why not get your own place and pay rent there instead? If your parents don't charge you rent, where does all your money go?

Instead of thinking of women as asexual and vastly different from men, you should think of yourself as asexual and vastly different from the majority of men and women. After all, most everybody who wants to has had sex by age 40, most everybody has the ability to form romantic and non-romantic relationships with the opposite sex by age 40, most everybody can form friendships with people in their own gender. Since you're unable to do what the vast majority of people can do, it seems like the rational thing to do would be to recognize that the issue lies with you.

There are lots of things you can try from counseling to meet-ups to moving out to your place, but if you don't accept that you're the one that needs to change mentally and emotionally, you're not likely to see any results.

Do you even want your life to change? Because change is not comfortable and it's not easy...it's going to take a lot of work to make your life different. Is that something you even want to do? 

Yes, I would like to move.  As I wrote in a previous post, I feel trapped in this area.  Cost of housing in this area is too high to be close enough to work. My choices would be live far away from work and have a long commute.  Live near work, and live paycheck to paycheck.  Maybe get a different job, but even before the pandemic, the jobs market is difficult.  Maybe move to a different city with lower cost of living.  I did live on my own for some years, but that didn't do anything for my social life or getting a girlfriend.  Same issue, I don't know how to talk to women or how to interact.

If I was asexual, then not having a girlfriend would not be an issue and I would not be posting here.  Asexual does not apply to me because I am very much interested in sex and strongly attracted to women.   There is another term: involuntary celibacy.  Have you heard of it?  As I wrote in my first post, it feels like a paradox:  Can't get experience with women without being with them.  Can't be with them without experience.  Not sure how to break that cycle.  I have not had non-romantic relationships for a long enough time, it just feels normal now.  What would I do or talk about with some other guys?  Or any women for that matter?  I don't know. The men I've been around, I haven't felt anything in common with.  Change?  Yes.  But change to what?  Sharing the same interests and doing the same things as the vast majority of people?  Not sure how, or what that is.

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Harry Haller

[Yosemite]

2 hours ago, Harry Haller said:

Yes, I would like to move.  As I wrote in a previous post, I feel trapped in this area.  Cost of housing in this area is too high to be close enough to work. My choices would be live far away from work and have a long commute.  Live near work, and live paycheck to paycheck.  Maybe get a different job, but even before the pandemic, the jobs market is difficult. 

Prioritize which is more important, a short commute or getting a gf. If the short commute is more important to you, then have at it...enjoy your life, just don't go around creating crazy theories that women are asexual because they don't want to date a 40 yr old man with no social skills who lives with his mom and dad.

2 hours ago, Harry Haller said:

Change?  Yes.  But change to what?

Change to someone who has a gf or wife? Change to someone who has a social life? That's something only you can answer, what do you want to be? A husband? A dad? A homeowner? A guy with friends? Decide what you want and go from there.

How did your parents meet? Was it in the religious group? Do your siblings also live at your parent's house? Your dad probably has a very similar personality to yours, have you tried the advice he's given you about what worked for him?

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, Harry Haller said:

There is another term: involuntary celibacy.  Have you heard of it? 

You need to stop reading material that furthers your despair.

It's defined by the Anti Defamation League as a hate group:

"Incels are heterosexual men who blame women and society for their lack of romantic success

A subset of the online misogynist “manosphere” that includes Pick Up Artists and Men’s Rights Activists, incels are known for their deep-seated pessimism and profound sense of grievance against women

The incel ideology is rooted in the belief that women have too much power in the sexual/romantic sphere and ruin incels’ lives by rejecting them" 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Wiseman2

[5x5]

On 12/3/2020 at 1:17 PM, Harry Haller said:

How do I talk to women?  Even if I could get a date with a women, then what do I do, where do I go?  I have no idea.  I have avoided some other women simply because I have no idea what to do.

You talk to women in exactly the same way you would talk to men. Women are people just as men are.

As to what to do, you can do what you want, what they want and or what you both want, one can do that by suggesting things and asking the other what they would like.

On where to go, it would help to go somewhere where you and the other person can feel safe and have some fun.

On 12/3/2020 at 4:54 PM, Harry Haller said:

My conclusion that women are asexual just comes from life experience, observation.

Since most women have sexual relationships, your life experience has left you misinformed.

On 12/4/2020 at 10:50 AM, Harry Haller said:

Sex on first day meeting?  I guess that is the exception, not the rule.

It's not exceptional, there are lots of men and women who do exactly that. Sure it's not most, yet it is certainly many.

I know lots of women and men who have had sex with people on the first day they have met them, and I've had sex with several women (including my ex-wife) on the first day I met them as well.

On 12/4/2020 at 1:18 PM, Harry Haller said:

How could women not understand that an emotional/affectionate "friends only" relationship be misconstrued as romantic interest?

I thought she was flirting and much more interested in me than just friends.  I did misconstrue the situation.  She just wanted to be friends.

Like you women are also fallible, like you some women will misconstrue someone's intentions. Just like you can also misconstrue things.

8 hours ago, Harry Haller said:

Asexual does not apply to me because I am very much interested in sex and strongly attracted to women.   There is another term: involuntary celibacy.  Have you heard of it?

If you seldom talk to women seeking and seldom ask them out in order to have sexual relationships with them, your celibacy is not involuntary.

While ever you avoid the risk of failure and remain unwilling to take risks in putting yourself out there in expressing your desire to be with women. While also often giving up following failure, then you will remain voluntarily celibate.

There are some organisations and mental health professionals, who could help you with strategies to help you manage your fears which can help you to meet your desires. I also want you to know that seeking help is not being weak and needing such help doesn't make you a loser. Having written that I hope you consider seeking such help, if you want to change things for yourself.

[Miss Spider]

12 hours ago, Harry Haller said:

Can't get experience with women without being with them.  Can't be with them without experience.  Not sure how to break that cycle.  I have not had non-romantic relationships for a long enough time, it just feels normal now.  What would I do or talk about with some other guys?  Or any women for that matter?  I don't know. The men I've been around, I haven't felt anything in common with.  Change?  Yes.  But change to what?  Sharing the same interests and doing the same things as the vast majority of people?  Not sure how, or what that is.

 

 

 

Flawed logic. There’s no cycle. If there were, every man would be a virgin. If you don’t know what to talk about with people, that’s your first problem. Try to learn some social skills and practice 

[Happy Lemming]

2 hours ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said:

Try to learn some social skills and practice 

Yes... Every "successful" guy out there has had to learn to hone his craft.  He has to learn what works and what doesn't, what subjects to stay away from, when to take the "middle ground" on a subject and when to just agree (even if you don't).  I think for most guys its a "trial and error" type of learning experience and yes... practice, practice, practice.

At some point you begin to develop "game" and the whole process just becomes second nature.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Happy Lemming

[Harry Haller]

18 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

You need to stop reading material that furthers your despair.

It's defined by the Anti Defamation League as a hate group:

"Incels are heterosexual men who blame women and society for their lack of romantic success

A subset of the online misogynist “manosphere” that includes Pick Up Artists and Men’s Rights Activists, incels are known for their deep-seated pessimism and profound sense of grievance against women

The incel ideology is rooted in the belief that women have too much power in the sexual/romantic sphere and ruin incels’ lives by rejecting them" 

I first came across the term around 15 years ago.  At the time it seemed like a legit movement, of sorts.  Men, women, disabled people who wanted sex but couldn't get it for what ever reason.  Lately, I've heard it was more associated with troll culture and such.  I don't follow it or read their stuff.  Is the basic idea valid (minus the trolling, misogynism, etc)?

[Harry Haller]

There was a thread I saw here recently.  The ladies had some harsh opinions.

https://www.loveshack.org/forums/topic/597640-dating-someone-who-has-no-relationship-experience/

I'll just have to not tell any women my experience level.

I might be Ok on some level with rejection if it is straightforward.  If women say "I'm not attracted to you/don't like you."   What I have a much harder time with is ambiguity, uncertainty.  That makes everything much more difficult, causes overthinking, nervousness.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
clean up

[basil67]

You're putting the cart before the horse Harry.  Before you worry about how dating is going to go, first learn how to socialise with other men and women.   

Now you've spent a lot of time talking about the links between your conservative upbringing and not being able to connect with women, however you later said that you can't connect with men either.  So unless all your classmates are in the same situation as you, your problem is not due to your upbringing.  Do you have anyone who may be honest with you about what's going wrong with your social skills?   Alternately, have you been to a psychologist to work through what's going on?

[Harry Haller]

21 hours ago, basil67 said:

You're putting the cart before the horse Harry.  Before you worry about how dating is going to go, first learn how to socialise with other men and women.   

Now you've spent a lot of time talking about the links between your conservative upbringing and not being able to connect with women, however you later said that you can't connect with men either.  So unless all your classmates are in the same situation as you, your problem is not due to your upbringing.  Do you have anyone who may be honest with you about what's going wrong with your social skills?   Alternately, have you been to a psychologist to work through what's going on?

No psychologist.  Whether I can or can't connect with men, I don't know.  I probably can.  I don't have much interest in that right now.  Being alone for so long, my interests have probably diverged from mainstream of society.  I could connect with other men for friendship if I really wanted to, but what am I supposed to do?  Pretend I share their interests, that I may not be interested in?  Its difficult to pretend to share interests with others.  If I had a GF, I might be able to pretend to share her interests to keep her around.

 

[basil67]

You've been unable/unwilling to connect with other men and women for the 20 years you've been an adult.   If you're not going to seek professional help to see where you're going wrong, how do you plan to get a girlfriend?  

If you change nothing, nothing will change.

Edited December 10, 2020 by basil67

[Harry Haller]

5 hours ago, poppyfields said:

The key is to not let them know or see you are practicing your game.   I mean it's not like you have to tell them or anything, I don't know anyone who would advise doing that! 🤣

Just experiment, try different things and see how women respond.  Keep in mind, different women will respond differently, but use your intuition and best judgment and you'll figure it out -- your "game."

Looking back, I had a guy "practice his game" on me a few years back, it was quite blatant. I played along, I don't think he knew I was on to it.  It was just an on-line thing so pretty harmless.   I did fall for him though, guy had really "good game" to say the least!  lol

Yea, this idea of "game".  This is something I have difficulty with.  What is "game"?  Cheezy pickup lines?   If "game" is a thing, then that means talking to women in some unique way, so that she will have attraction for the man?  Is that how you mean? 

Previous advice in this thread said I should talk to women like talking to regular people.  But, I wouldn't use "game" when talking to men, or women I don't have romantic interest in.  Conversely, If I talked to a women I was romantically interested in as if I was talking to a man, then she probably wouldn't gain romantic interest in me.  It is confusing.  Also confusing that women need or want men to use this "game" style of speaking to gain romantic attraction.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Harry Haller

[5x5]

39 minutes ago, Harry Haller said:

If I had a GF, I might be able to pretend to share her interests to keep her around.

With that attitude, have fun remaining a virgin through the next 40 years.

[elaine567]

13 hours ago, Harry Haller said:

Being alone for so long, my interests have probably diverged from mainstream of society. 

What are these interests?