Latest CDC Guidelines 'universal mask wearing' etc ( Dec 2020 )

[NuevoYorko]

12 hours ago, basil67 said:

What are you getting at with this observation?   I don't want to assume....

I should have asked - I made the assumption that the poster believes that mask wearing was / is ineffective because they saw people everywhere they personally ventured wearing them, yet COVID cases are surging in their state.  

You know what they say about ASSuming.  I should know better.

[dangerous]

On 12/6/2020 at 6:02 PM, NuevoYorko said:

The response would be:  Applying "these measures" to the vulnerable is completely ineffective..

YOU won't wear a mask in the presence of other people.  Both you and the vulnerable person would need to wear a mask in order to protect the vulnerable person.

We've all seen enough of this virus to know that a great many infected people are asymptomatic or nearly so.  If they won't wear masks - much less self isolate - they are just acting as vectors, potentially spreading COVID to anyone they may come into contact with. 

I know many people with your point of view.  At the end of it, the bottom line is "The majority of infected people recover.  I won't get very sick and die, so why should I be concerned about the rest of society?"  

We will be over 3000 deaths per day during this week.  What's the proper number of deaths for the average American citizen to start caring about the effects of this pandemic on our country? 

You share  responsibility for much suffering and death, not to mention the collapse of our economy.  Nice work.

i stick by my view that the "vulnerable" should be protected. Not just masks, but isolation. The majority should be free again. Why is that selfish? I have the majority's interests at heart. The alternative is selfish, many would say.

[Ellener]

I think we thought Texas had missed it @FMW and people just got complacent. The WHO told us there'd be more than one 'wave' but Texans hate being told what to do, and there were conflicting mask-messages at first. I didn't think it was a good idea at first, my sister was an infection control specialist so I keep up on those things to discuss with her. One thing I wish I'd paid attention to, the Chinese community of Houston started wearing masks before a pandemic was officially declared; I just assumed they were cancer patients or something. We have so much medical centre here, so many nursing homes. 

One of the things I am learning this year is tune back in to some ( not all ) of your animal instincts!

Up to @May in Houston you would see people not wearing masks, and some of the people in stores reported having to stop people who would argue; now everyone's used to wearing the masks, but it has created another complacency- and the social distancing has diminuished. Everyone was hand-sanitising at first too, the stores had it up front for entering and leaving. That seems to happen less, where I've been, admittedly not that I've been many places. 

I thought I had Covid19 but I don't have any antibodies, so I've been super-cautious. I don't really care if I die to be honest, this would be a great time for my state to roll out euthnasia and I've already lived my life, I did a few things I'm not proud of and I'm not doing any more. Isn't that the lessons of life well-learned?

If I go to a grocery store it's either for pick up or I go in the evening. I'm staying home more than ever the past few days, if benefits end a lot of people will suddenly run out of money, most people aren't lawless I know, but anyone could be when desperate enough and I'm a bit unsteady on my feet these days or in the wheelchair. My cane has a very heavy top part and I say I'll whack anyone who tries to rob me ( that's to show I'm listening to you @major_merrick I have been a bit puny lately it's true...I do need to re-discover my warrior-woman! Probably not via violence but in some way ) Someone who tries to rob me will quickly find I don't have any money with me and people who are doing that from desperation will be one of two types- people with a boundary, people without. 

I worked with offenders for a few years, I remember after I left the job a man came up to me in the high street. This was England, I want to say the 90s, but honestly don't remember. I do remember the man was Mark, I won't post his full name but I remember that too. He asked me for fifty pence to get a cup of tea. I'm guessing that's how he robbed people, and for a flicker of a moment I saw it in his eyes he was thinking about grabbing my purse. Then he stopped thinking about it, I could see it clear as day. He made the better call and took my fifty pence. Said thank you. We both went on with our day.

I was kind to that man when I worked with him, well to all the people on the whole, except where I misunderstood. I had a really good boss who steered me well. Maybe one day being kind will save my life! Or save someone else's prison career! 

Who knows what any of us are here for, I keep thinking about Daniel Bell's 'End of Ideology' debate. 

We can learn something from his sociological writings here's some of his ideas via Wikepedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_Ideology

Maybe this is where we need to start: humans don't like masks as they have often been used as a cultural portrayal of oppression and fear. Covid re-defines mask wearing as an acceptable norm, within constraints, and enough protection to be worth doing community wide for at least another year, now backed up by scientists.

But the problem is a disconnect between the scientists and the people, especially where health care is purely for-profit as in America. No one will make money from it now the initial PPE shortage has gone. 

I could say more but that tips into political discussion. I'll start another thread!

I've been reading about the life of the most known Duke de La Rochefoucauld, if people had listened to his admonishments it could have been better for France later, but he lived then died in 1680. By the time the French Revolution started in 1789 no one listened to 'sentiments of morality' such as which he published. I've been using this week to research whether he lived by his own standards, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Rochefoucauld is the lineage on Wiki. 

One of his quotes I think about-

Before we set our hearts too much upon anything, let us examine how happy those are who already possess it.

I would give the rest of the days of my life to go back to one pre-covid day...some of the things we've been argumentative as a whole turned out not to be the major life issues after all. Some of the support systems turned out to be nothing but. It's definitely redefined my life. I've found out which people are real and who actually cares. But I already had my life, career, sex, marriage, children.A lot of people dont have the same life I did just by being born in England in the 60s!

I just re-read this, it's an article for BC doctors written by their president in 2019 https://www.doctorsofbc.ca/presidents-blog/we-all-wear-masks-and-the-time-comes-when-we-cannot-remove-them-without#:~:text= André Berthiaume-,“We all wear masks%2C and the time comes when we,own skin” – André Berthiaume

The title is a quotation for André Berthiaume who served distinguishedly in the Quebec military and went to work for the UN. I doubt many remember him today, he died in 2003, but it's really important to remember ordinary people who died and served. Fame is over-rated, that should be a lesson of 2020.

And somebody did remember each important person. The problem is there's so much information. That has become a problem with masks. In our modern era. 

I think what I've found out so far is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/François_Alexandre_Frédéric,_duc_de_La_Rochefoucauld-Liancourt was one of the first promoters of vaccination in France; he established a dispensary in Paris. Got  on the wrong side of Napoleon. After his death The academies of science and of medicine admitted him to their membership by way of protest. Official hostility pursued him even after his death, for the old pupils of his school were charged by the military at his funeral.

Why repeat history? 

I never understood theodicy but maybe that's the only thing will get through to us.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Ellener
spelling

[NuevoYorko]

 

5 hours ago, dangerous said:

i stick by my view that the "vulnerable" should be protected. Not just masks, but isolation. The majority should be free again. Why is that selfish? I have the majority's interests at heart. The alternative is selfish, many would say.

Your view is missing a big piece of the picture:  those of you who refuse to observe the protocols are actively carrying the infection not only to vulnerable people, but to other people who do not want COVID. As you and everyone else (at least those of us who are not science deniers) know that it takes both people wearing masks to avoid transmission.   And what even constitutes a "vulnerable person" ?

"The majority" does not rule in public health management.  It doesn't rule in many realms of life within a society. 

It's jarring to read that you believe that your right to "be free again" - we're talking about "freedoms" like refusing to wear a mask, to eat in a restaurant, to gather in large groups - take precedence over other peoples' right to remain alive.

If ONE person was spared a terrible illness or death because you'd been willing to wear a mask and maintain social distancing, would you think that was worthwhile?  I'd like you to answer this. Simply, if you could do a simple act that would definitely save a life, would you?

Edited December 9, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
clean up

[Taramere]

26 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

 

Your view is missing a big piece of the picture:  those of you who refuse to observe the protocols are actively carrying the infection not only to vulnerable people, but to other people who do not want COVID. As you and everyone else (at least those of us who are not science deniers) know that it takes both people wearing masks to avoid transmission.   And what even constitutes a "vulnerable person" ?

Where I live, vulnerable people tend to have either family members coming in to take care of their needs or they have carers from private agencies.  In some cases a combination of the two.  In that situation we still talk about the vulnerable "isolating" - but the reality is that they might have 5 people or more  (depending on carers' shift patterns and allowing for holidays/sick leave) in and out of their home in the space of a week.  If one of those carers has a partner who doesn't give a stuff about social distancing, or who works with people who don't - or if they have a child going to school and mixing with other kids whose parents take the view that only the vulnerable need to isolate, then it's only a matter of time before one of those carers will be infected with Covid.  People are at their most infectious before the symptoms show.  

So when people say "isolate the vulnerable but let everybody else do what they want" those are meaningless words really.  If everybody else does what they want, then sooner later covid gets passed onto the vulnerable via an agency carer.  No matter how careful they and their family have been.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Taramere

[major_merrick]

@NuevoYorko I'll just add my personal experience.  I'm pregnant....so, that means I'm once again a vulnerable person.  I do not expect the rest of the world to protect me, or even give two cents about my life.  Not their job, and it would be selfish to expect that.  So, I do what I need to do for myself.  Which means I stay home, don't eat out, and stay away from people.

Outrage generally stems from unmet expectations.  If I expect others to protect me....the reality that they won't causes outrage.  If I expect that protection is my own responsibility, I can handle that without a fuss.  Increase your expectations for yourself and decrease your expectations for others....life becomes simpler that way. 

 

[basil67]

2 hours ago, major_merrick said:

Outrage generally stems from unmet expectations.  If I expect others to protect me....the reality that they won't causes outrage.  If I expect that protection is my own responsibility, I can handle that without a fuss.  Increase your expectations for yourself and decrease your expectations for others....life becomes simpler that way. 

 

Where I live, an enormous percentage of us care about protecting others and so the vulnerable are safe with us.   As the expectations for our society is met, there's no outrage. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by basil67

[dangerous]

On 12/7/2020 at 11:31 PM, vjk said:

Masks have been required in Ohio since June.    Except people walking outdoors, It been months since I last saw someone not wearing one out in public.  And yet, Ohio has been ranking near the top in new cases for the past month.   

Good point, Seems to question the "indisputable" doesn't it?

[vjk]

19 hours ago, basil67 said:

What are you getting at with this observation?   I don't want to assume....

Pointing out a reality that I'm actually observing and not relying on second hand sensationalized news stories with political slants.  Almost every county is in the level 3 and level 4 alert states. Level 4 is the highest.   Some people seem to  think areas with high infection rates are not following guidelines. I don't see that here, nor have other people I've spoken with.

I purposely left out my opinion.  What do you make of this?   I'm wondering why the covid infection rate is so high if people are following the guidelines everywhere I go. Is the 6 foot recommended distance not enough?   Are shoppers passing it around by touching items?  It doubt it's from eating out. Not many are indoor dining.   Perhaps, from schools.  I doubt a one off Trump rally is going to impact the state that much.

Now that vaccinations are around the corner, I'm more inclined to stay home as much as possible. 

 

 

 

[QuietRiot]

3 minutes ago, vjk said:

Pointing out a reality that I'm actually observing and not relying on second hand sensationalized news stories with political slants.  Almost every county is in the level 3 and level 4 alert states. Level 4 is the highest.   Some people seem to  think areas with high infection rates are not following guidelines. I don't see that here, nor have other people I've spoken with.

I purposely left out my opinion.  What do you make of this?   I'm wondering why the covid infection rate is so high if people are following the guidelines everywhere I go. Is the 6 foot recommended distance not enough?   Are shoppers passing it around by touching items?  It doubt it's from eating out. Not many are indoor dining.   Perhaps, from schools.  I doubt a one off Trump rally is going to impact the state that much.

Now that vaccinations are around the corner, I'm more inclined to stay home as much as possible. 

 

 

 

The bolded, not sure how you cannot see that....but...you don't see that here, because one thing that does remain unseen is the holiday gatherings. You can see ALL people and log their behaviors.

Just because you don't see it happening, (with your own eyes) doesn't mean it's happening.

 People are partaking in large family gatherings. I live in a more rural/suburban community, on Thanksgiving, you can drive around the neighborhood and see  a slew of cars in people's parking lots...so that's an indicator.

Edited December 9, 2020 by QuietRiot

[basil67]

24 minutes ago, vjk said:

Pointing out a reality that I'm actually observing and not relying on second hand sensationalized news stories with political slants.  Almost every county is in the level 3 and level 4 alert states. Level 4 is the highest.   Some people seem to  think areas with high infection rates are not following guidelines. I don't see that here, nor have other people I've spoken with.

I purposely left out my opinion.  What do you make of this?   I'm wondering why the covid infection rate is so high if people are following the guidelines everywhere I go. Is the 6 foot recommended distance not enough?   Are shoppers passing it around by touching items?  It doubt it's from eating out. Not many are indoor dining.   Perhaps, from schools.  I doubt a one off Trump rally is going to impact the state that much.

So I'm in Australia where we have gotten down to our minimal COVID cases.  I had a look at your CDC statement and it doesn't go to nearly the lengths which ours did to get us to where we are now.   The CDC have "recommendations" to stay home and isolate if infected or are a close contact of someone who's COVID positive....but for us, it's compulsory.  We also have gone further and harder with closed borders (country/state/regional).   Protests and rallies are prohibited.   We even have limits as to how many can be on a beach.  And from what I hear your transmission tracking has become overwhelmed, as have the testing.    Yes, social distancing and masks do help, but they are just one part of a multi faceted approach.

While everyone might be doing the right thing in public, you don't know what those who don't care about others do behind closed doors.  You don't know if the person next to you in the store has tested positive and has chosen to go out regardless.  You don't know if they have symptoms but haven't bothered getting tested.  

A rally easily hit the state badly if people choose to not quarantine themselves.  I will tell you about Melbourne to give you some understanding:   They had 9 hotel quarantine workers who contracted the virus in June due to poor infection control.   They took it home to their families, and those families unwittingly spread it to the community before it was caught.   In just 6 weeks, those 9 cases grew to 7,000 cases.  So yeah, I can easily see how a handful of positive people in a rally will spread a virus like wildfire.  

[QuietRiot]

10 minutes ago, basil67 said:

So I'm in Australia where we have gotten down to our minimal COVID cases.  I had a look at your CDC statement and it doesn't go to nearly the lengths which ours did to get us to where we are now.   The CDC have "recommendations" to stay home and isolate if infected or are a close contact of someone who's COVID positive....but for us, it's compulsory.  We also have gone further and harder with closed borders (country/state/regional).   Protests and rallies are prohibited.   We even have limits as to how many can be on a beach.  And from what I hear your transmission tracking has become overwhelmed, as have the testing.    Yes, social distancing and masks do help, but they are just one part of a multi faceted approach.

While everyone might be doing the right thing in public, you don't know what those who don't care about others do behind closed doors.  You don't know if the person next to you in the store has tested positive and has chosen to go out regardless.  You don't know if they have symptoms but haven't bothered getting tested.  

A rally easily hit the state badly if people choose to not quarantine themselves.  I will tell you about Melbourne to give you some understanding:   They had 9 hotel quarantine workers who contracted the virus in June due to poor infection control.   They took it home to their families, and those families unwittingly spread it to the community before it was caught.   In just 6 weeks, those 9 cases grew to 7,000 cases.  So yeah, I can easily see how a handful of positive people in a rally will spread a virus like wildfire.  

Wow, just as I finish my post about Australia, Basil makes my point. Go to the horse's mouth, talk to an Australian as we have them here on the forums. That said, no one can question that this is a "big deal out of nothing". Not...one....bit. Otherwise, it's just willful ignorance.

How much would it take to convince a Covid naysayer to change their tune? A close family member getting drastically ill and on a ventilator or worse?

Edited December 9, 2020 by QuietRiot

[NuevoYorko]

52 minutes ago, vjk said:

Pointing out a reality that I'm actually observing and not relying on second hand sensationalized news stories with political slants.  Almost every county is in the level 3 and level 4 alert states. Level 4 is the highest.   Some people seem to  think areas with high infection rates are not following guidelines. I don't see that here, nor have other people I've spoken with.

I purposely left out my opinion.  What do you make of this?   I'm wondering why the covid infection rate is so high if people are following the guidelines everywhere I go. Is the 6 foot recommended distance not enough?   Are shoppers passing it around by touching items?  It doubt it's from eating out. Not many are indoor dining.   Perhaps, from schools.  I doubt a one off Trump rally is going to impact the state that much.

Now that vaccinations are around the corner, I'm more inclined to stay home as much as possible. 

 

 

 

Perhaps you might seek information sources besides "sensationalized news stories with political slants."  That way you have an opportunity to see a larger picture than what you are able to observe in your personal activities, especially since they are probably curtailed due to restrictions.

Ohio is a big state and there are many thousands of people there who "don't believe" in the dangers of COVID and blow off the restrictions at any opportunity.  This probably is not visible to you because, for one example, retail markets must enforce a mask rule in order to remain open.  I venture to guess that most of the places where you see everyone masked won't even allow unmasked people in the door.

That's the way it is in the state where I live.  

[NuevoYorko]

3 minutes ago, QuietRiot said:

 

How much would it take to convince a Covid naysayer to change their tune? A close family member getting drastically ill and on a ventilator or worse?

I often ask myself this question.  Truly I don't wish illness or death on anyone, but sometimes it gets very frustrating listening to people renounce medical science and claim that COVID is not that big of a deal.  It seems like the only wakeup call would happen very close to home for these people.  

It's incomprehensible to me that so many American people WILL NOT make the most simple and easy sacrifices for the benefit of others, if not for themselves.  It's depressing.  

 

[QuietRiot]

7 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

I often ask myself this question.  Truly I don't wish illness or death on anyone, but sometimes it gets very frustrating listening to people renounce medical science and claim that COVID is not that big of a deal.  It seems like the only wakeup call would happen very close to home for these people.  

It's incomprehensible to me that so many American people WILL NOT make the most simple and easy sacrifices for the benefit of others, if not for themselves.  It's depressing.  

 

Right, I typically bring this up only when it's justified, as I do say it tongue in cheek. Just makes sense to bring up the reality of the situation. 

People simply cannot accept that there are some things in life that they don't like to do, and they sometimes have to just grin and bite the bullet. I don't like wearing masks, but I do it anyways....just as with any other things in life.

It's interesting how people will conjure up their own...thing...to justify not having to do what they dislike doing. Like the "breathing in your own CO2" or "getting bacterial infection" in your lungs by wearing a mask....when that was so easily debunked when it was simply brought up that surgeons and medical staff do this all day...even in pre-Covid days.

Oh, then I'm reminded of M*A*S*H. lol

 

Edited December 9, 2020 by QuietRiot

[NuevoYorko]

Last week COVID was the #1 cause of death in the US.  I guess we are not doing a good enough job of "protecting the vulnerable."

[QuietRiot]

5 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

Last week COVID was the #1 cause of death in the US.  I guess we are not doing a good enough job of "protecting the vulnerable."

Chances are, some of the vulnerable are putting themselves at risk at group gatherings.

[basil67]

3 hours ago, dangerous said:

Good point, Seems to question the "indisputable" doesn't it?

What exactly are you referring to as being "indisputable"?

[Ellener]

11 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

Your view is missing a big piece of the picture:  those of you who refuse to observe the protocols are actively carrying the infection not only to vulnerable people, but to other people who do not want COVID.

Oh my goodness, people don't even realise what it's like when an infection takes over a city. Until it does. We are better-served here in Houston in terms of emergency management maybe, having been through so many crises in recent years ( maybe also our own fault! ) but my dementia patients aren't really having quality of life. They live isolated but their care-givers have to come and go. 

There was a situation in England, Eyam, in Derbyshire which is to this day commemorated, the people isolated themselves during the bubonic plague. In modern times we would treat this with antibiotics, but the people in 1660 didn't have antibiotic treatment to simply 'fix' things https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubonic_plague

We have been equally complacent and neglectful with medical science in my lifetime. 

 

 

 

[Wiseman2]

Sadly, the predicable huge uptick in cases after Thanksgiving/black friday  is showing up on top of the "second wave".😟

 

[QuietRiot]

2 hours ago, Ellener said:

Oh my goodness, people don't even realise what it's like when an infection takes over a city. Until it does. We are better-served here in Houston in terms of emergency management maybe, having been through so many crises in recent years ( maybe also our own fault! ) but my dementia patients aren't really having quality of life. They live isolated but their care-givers have to come and go. 

There was a situation in England, Eyam, in Derbyshire which is to this day commemorated, the people isolated themselves during the bubonic plague. In modern times we would treat this with antibiotics, but the people in 1660 didn't have antibiotic treatment to simply 'fix' things https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubonic_plague

We have been equally complacent and neglectful with medical science in my lifetime. 

 

 

 

Yeah, I never really understood the resistance to science.

[Ellener]

2 hours ago, QuietRiot said:

Yeah, I never really understood the resistance to science.

In my lifetime medicine has been misused in terms of handing out thalidomide and Valium and antibiotics, too. And people have been used as medical 'test subjects'. It's right to question invasive medical procedures and weigh them up personally. A mask isn't that onerous, it's just a piece of cloth. 

 

[NuevoYorko]

4 hours ago, QuietRiot said:

Yeah, I never really understood the resistance to science.

IMO it's often coming from the same place as a tendency to believe in conspiracy theories, or even to seek them out.   There are many articles about a specific cluster of traits that contribute to this.  Two major components are that belief in conspiracies gives a sense of community and of being "special" (only we know the truth, while the "masses" are fooled).

In the case of COVID, belief bias is pervasive.  I'll link an article about it.  The main components are 1) selection of information sources,  2) a desire to see the world as we want it to be in the face of uncertainty, 3) difficulty coping when preexisting beliefs come into conflict with new facts.  The internet is great at propagating.

This article also mentions that this country is based on the concept of "E pluribus unum"  (national common cause - what is good for the one is good for the many) as well as safeguarding individual freedoms.

https://www.businessinsider.com/bias-explains-why-people-arent-taking-covid-19-seriously-2020-4

[QuietRiot]

20 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

IMO it's often coming from the same place as a tendency to believe in conspiracy theories, or even to seek them out.   There are many articles about a specific cluster of traits that contribute to this.  Two major components are that belief in conspiracies gives a sense of community and of being "special" (only we know the truth, while the "masses" are fooled).

In the case of COVID, belief bias is pervasive.  I'll link an article about it.  The main components are 1) selection of information sources,  2) a desire to see the world as we want it to be in the face of uncertainty, 3) difficulty coping when preexisting beliefs come into conflict with new facts.  The internet is great at propagating.

This article also mentions that this country is based on the concept of "E pluribus unum"  (national common cause - what is good for the one is good for the many) as well as safeguarding individual freedoms.

https://www.businessinsider.com/bias-explains-why-people-arent-taking-covid-19-seriously-2020-4

I have a female friend that believes in these kinds of things, prior to ALL this...she secretly (behind her bf's back) would go see a Tarot Card reader. She was thing for ghosts and the spiritual. She liked going to ghost tours, etc. 

I think conspiracies started off as a source of just PURE entertainment, nothing more...but now...well, now people are believing in them.

[NuevoYorko]

3 hours ago, QuietRiot said:

 

I think conspiracies started off as a source of just PURE entertainment, nothing more...but now...well, now people are believing in them.

I don't think so, all my life there have been pervasive ones:  No one landed on the moon, KFK shooting conspiracy, the enduring "Illuminati."  "Paul (Beatle) is dead," Holocaust was faked, contrails, flat earth.