Why do you believe that 'your' God is the correct one?

[Curious-Sam]

16 hours ago, Watercolors said:

I'm clairsentient and even I don't believe in a 'god.' 

So by clairsentient do you mean you are sensitive to and can feel spiritual energy ? If so I genuinely find it shocking if you have this and at the same time don't have an understanding or belief in God. Don't mean it in a rude way. I'm just genuinely very surprised

What spiritual energy are you feeling exactly ? Have you ever attended a prayer, worship service / vigil with a group who invoke and invite in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit etc and felt the energy that comes into the place ? Not necessarily a mass - but a more focused devotional worship group. 

[major_merrick]

My religion definitely isn't because of my parents.  My father was "barely" a cultural Christian.  It didn't affect his life at all.  My mother was a pagan.  I believe that both died unsaved, and that I will never see them again. 

Growing up, I had a vague idea that there was a God (singular) and an afterlife.  And that God was either absent-minded and uncaring or actively disliked me for whatever reason.  Sometimes I hoped to earn his favor, other times I just didn't care.  When I married my husband, I converted to his faith - a sect of Christianity.  At first, it was just a formality so that I could join his family.  He grew up in a mainstream Christian denomination, but when he married his Wife #1 he joined her beliefs and became convinced of the particulars of our faith. 

So what convinced me?  Watching it work.  It is like no other faith I've been around.  I've seen people healed.  I've experienced the gift of fertility when I was told I would never have children.  I've seen/felt the presence of God in worship.  I've been accepted in my community in a way that has never happened before.  I see people who live their faith in a simple, but rather radical way.  And the doctrines and teachings match the Scriptures, at least from what I've seen.  There's intellectual depth to it in a way I haven't found elsewhere, and don't fully understand.  The faith, while not like a science book/class, has excellent explanations for everything I encounter.  The Creation, the natural world, human nature, history.... time and again I see proof - at least good enough for my purposes.  And when I look closer at details about the faith that people challenge on scientific or historical grounds, I find explanations that support my faith rather than destabilize it.  Which is different from other faiths I've looked at. 

[major_merrick]

On 12/6/2020 at 12:50 AM, Zona said:

The three Abrahamic religions believe in the same God, but view him differently.

It depends on who you ask.  For example, my sect of Christianity is quite specific about it.  Our leaders teach that the Christian faith originated in Judaism, and replaced it.  In other words, Jewish prayers are addressed to our God but he isn't receiving their mail.  As for Islam, we are taught that Muhammad was deceived by demons and that the Muslim deity Allah is a false concept and not our God at all.  (***disclaimer - I am simply stating what my community's leaders teach, for the purpose of discussion***)

So how do we really determine who actually believes in which deity?

I think there is a certain amount of "pop theology" in American society that preaches the "universal Fatherhood of God" and the "universal brotherhood of man."  It is common to hear people say that there are many paths to God.  My faith teaches that there is only one path....a very narrow one. 

I wonder how many people get "their religion" from their family, vs society, vs experiences or specific teachings? 

[Ellener]

25 minutes ago, major_merrick said:

my sect of Christianity

That's all it is, any belief, a sect.

'It must be true- else why would I believe in it'...a fallacious but popular argument.

I'm glad you found a place to belong and be happy @major_merrick I think that's what religion is really, to give up something of yourself in order to belong somewhere. The largest 'christian' church in America is where I live and it's all about money and fame. But it's also an uplifting kind of message!

 

 

[Justanaverageguy]

On 12/5/2020 at 2:03 PM, Trail Blazer said:

Why do you believe in the teachings of only one religious doctrine when there's an estimated number of religions in excess of 4,000 in the world?
I'm curious as to how everyone came to the conclusion that of all the religions in the world, why yours is the correct one?
Is it a simple case of believing what your parents believed, therefore you just believe it, too? 
Or, have you studied and compared many religions which has led to towards a conclusion that the religion which you've chosen to believe just resonated with you more?
Before anyone accuses the creation of this thread as some kind of veiled swipe at the logic of believers in general, I just want to make it clear that this is a component to religious belief which I've struggled to reconcile with the most

So something different. Why not approach this from a pure outside observers scientific standpoint ? Take a look at the living conditions, wealth, generous and charitable giving, safety, health, life style etc across the worlds countries. See how they stack up. Then look at what religion these societies were predominantly founded and established on over the last decent chunk of time. Say last 200 - 300 - 400 hundred years and do a comparison of the results.

Hard to collate all of these factors yourself but to simplify there are a number of groups which do these rankings already. You could take the OECD 2019 Better Life Index and also the 2018 Good country index which are two studies which basically put all these type of things together. You can find other similar ones as well. These rank countries based on:  Housing conditions, Income, Jobs: earnings, job security and unemployment, Community: quality of social support network, Education, Environmental health, Governance, Health ad Health care, Life Satisfaction , Safety: murder and assault rates, Work–life balance.

Here is the Good country index: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Country_Index#2018_Top_50_Overall_Rank_(Version_1.3)
Here is the Better Life Index: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OECD_Better_Life_Index

Lets take a look at the top 20 countries. First thing that should jump out at you is an interesting trend. Every single country in both lists top 20 has a historically large majority practicing christian population. Literally every single one.  Not a single country in the top 20 is predominantly built on Atheist, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or Judaic populations. The first non christian country comes in at 23 which is Singapore and just doing a very quick check of the top 50 I believe there are less then 10 non christian countries. Now I'm no genius but that to me should tell you something

An interesting thing to note is, while all the top 20 countries on both lists have been strong majority christian for generally hundreds of years, in the last say 20ish years a number of the countries (particularly western Europe) are starting to see a trend away from practicing Christianity and religiosity in general. It will be interesting to track how this potentially affects the societies going forward.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Justanaverageguy

[Trail Blazer]

On 12/6/2020 at 5:20 PM, Zona said:

A weighty question.

I think you must have meant, "why do you believe your religion is the right one?". The three Abrahamic religions believe in the same God, but view him differently.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.  I don't believe that different religions can share the same God.  The fundamental differences betwee Islam and Christianity rule this out.

On 12/6/2020 at 5:20 PM, Zona said:

Without getting too wordy, I'll just say that I think the Christian bible has a ton of credibility; in the profound teachings of Jesus, in the many, many eye witness reports of miracles performed by Jesus, and in the amazing consistency that runs throughout. We also have very early partial transcripts of the both the Jewish scriptures, and the new testament, which rules out later updating and modification to make it more consistent. It also makes the predictions (aka prophesies) most credible.

See, now here's where the problems arise.  You're using the bolstering the credibility of the bible by sourcing its own content.  The bible isn't proof of anything and its contents should be taken with a grain of salt.

Take the gospels, for instance, which were written 50+ years after Jesus' death.  There is so much historical conjecture over who wrote the gospels, that everything else contained within the New Testament must be called into questions.

We could go one step further and say that it's extremely questionable as to whether Jesus of Nazareth actually existed.  Historians and scholars are divided on whether he did, with the lack of evidence by way of extreme inconsistencies contained within the gospels being the point of conjecture.

On 12/6/2020 at 5:20 PM, Zona said:

As for atheists (and I was one), they have to explain what caused the universe to come into existence with just the perfect conditions for life, and how life started. I found God in grad school while studying AI. It would have to be some kind of artificial (non-sentient) intelligence that created the universe and life. I came to the conclusion that random forces as a explanation leads to statistical impossibilities. The human genome has 3 billion base pairs for example, that's 3,000,000,000^4 possible combinations. I don't believe that random forces could create that much genetic code.

Why?  Why do atheists "have to" explain what caused the universe to come into existence? 

Of course, scientists will endeavor to search for evidence for how the universe came to form, but that is besides the point.  The burden of proof rests on those making the claims.  Currently, no religion has a shred of scientific evidence to prove their claims.

Are you familar with the term god-of-the-gaps?  It's a logical fallacy where you claim that gaps in scientific understanding warrants a deference back to religion as a plauisble explanation.  This is simply wrong.

As for your last sentence, once again, a statistical anomaly is not therefore proof of the god which you choose to believe in.  However, I could easily turn the question back onto you if I felt the need to be flippant by positing, "just who created god?"

[Trail Blazer]

On 12/7/2020 at 2:43 AM, Curious-Sam said:

<snip>

So, the long and the short of it all is, if you want to legitimize something badly enough, you'll eventually find yourself convinced one way or another.  Confirmation bias can be very powerful.

Let me ask you this; if you were born in the Middle East as opposed to the Unites States (I'm assuming you're from the U.S.A. or at least another western nation), do you honestly believe you'd be practicing Christianity?

Think about it; all those Muslims over there have one thing in common - they were all born over there.  Yet, the West and indeed, portions of the United States, inc. a large contingent of the southern portion of the country are heavily Christian...

It's kind of interesting to think how your geographical location is the single biggest indicator as to what religion you'll become actively involved in.  Very few people choose a religion of their own volition.

[Trail Blazer]

13 hours ago, major_merrick said:

It depends on who you ask.  For example, my sect of Christianity is quite specific about it.  Our leaders teach that the Christian faith originated in Judaism, and replaced it.  In other words, Jewish prayers are addressed to our God but he isn't receiving their mail.  As for Islam, we are taught that Muhammad was deceived by demons and that the Muslim deity Allah is a false concept and not our God at all.  (***disclaimer - I am simply stating what my community's leaders teach, for the purpose of discussion***)

So how do we really determine who actually believes in which deity?

I think there is a certain amount of "pop theology" in American society that preaches the "universal Fatherhood of God" and the "universal brotherhood of man."  It is common to hear people say that there are many paths to God.  My faith teaches that there is only one path....a very narrow one. 

I wonder how many people get "their religion" from their family, vs society, vs experiences or specific teachings? 

Do you not find it curious that your god only provides a narrow and seemingly rigid way to discovery?  In many cases, the discovery is nigh on impossible.

How is someone in a remote Amazonian tribe going to discover the Christian faith when he's probably never even seen a person from the civilized world?

What happens to those people after they die?  Do they go to hell and get punished for something which they never had any knowledge of? 

It seems strange that a god who loves everyone equally would so heavily favor one group of people over another. 

I'm sure the Amazonian tribe member would love to see deceased relatives, too.  However, if your religion is anything to go by, all he can look forward to is eternity in hell.

And, all for doing what?  Not being born in America? 

[major_merrick]

@Trail BlazerI think that a lot of how God judges people depends on their level of knowledge and willingness to have a relationship.  Romans 1:18-23 provides an explanation: 

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who [d]suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is [e]manifest [f]in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and [g]Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like [h]corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

In other words, God provides evidence of Himself in nature.  Even as a child, I looked around me and I knew there was God.  However, believing that God disliked me, I did not seek a relationship with Him.  I had a choice - and that choice would have lead to Hell.  If people look around, believe in the existence of God, God will help them find the right path.  In modern times with all our information and means of communication, that path is easier to find than ever, even in the depths of the jungle. 

Hell is not a place for punishing people.  Hell was prepared as a jail for the devil and his rebellious demons.  But for people who don't want a relationship with God on His terms?  If they wouldn't be happy hanging out with God in heaven, where else is there to go?  God doesn't want people to go to Hell.  People end up there by rejecting heaven. 

[Justanaverageguy]

1 hour ago, Trail Blazer said:

Do you not find it curious that your god only provides a narrow and seemingly rigid way to discovery?  In many cases, the discovery is nigh on impossible.
How is someone in a remote Amazonian tribe going to discover the Christian faith when he's probably never even seen a person from the civilized world?
It seems strange that a god who loves everyone equally would so heavily favor one group of people over another. I'm sure the Amazonian tribe member would love to see deceased relatives, too.  However, if your religion is anything to go by, all he can look forward to is eternity in hell.
And, all for doing what?  Not being born in America? 

Honestly this just doesn't make any sense when talking about Christianity. Like literally none. Normally Christianity gets criticized for the exact opposite of this - for "preaching" and "evangelizing". The whole foundation of Christianity is "The great Commission". Jesus instructs his followers to go out in to the world to spread the teaching as far and as wide as possible. To make the teaching and access to God available to as many as possible. I believe the words are:  “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every living creature. Everyone who hears and believes will be saved".

Christianity started as a tiny jewish sect that consisted of literally a few hundred followers in one town and grew into the largest and most wide spread religous teaching in the world. It spread within the middle east - to Europe across the entire roman empire to the far reaches of the Americas and Asia. Today the bible is the most published book in the history of humanity by such a large margin I think the next 10 most published books don't even come close. The bible publishes approx 500 million copies every year. This is larger then the highest selling non religious books of all time sell in their entire life span. To say the teaching hasn't been made available or accessible is just unfounded. Sure there are probably some cut off amazonian tribes who don't have access to it. But I would estimate something like 99% of the human population can get access to the Christian teaching today - but even still the followers are called to try to get it to the few who don't have access. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Justanaverageguy

[Acacia98]

2 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

So, the long and the short of it all is, if you want to legitimize something badly enough, you'll eventually find yourself convinced one way or another.  Confirmation bias can be very powerful.

Let me ask you this; if you were born in the Middle East as opposed to the Unites States (I'm assuming you're from the U.S.A. or at least another western nation), do you honestly believe you'd be practicing Christianity?

Think about it; all those Muslims over there have one thing in common - they were all born over there.  Yet, the West and indeed, portions of the United States, inc. a large contingent of the southern portion of the country are heavily Christian...

It's kind of interesting to think how your geographical location is the single biggest indicator as to what religion you'll become actively involved in.  Very few people choose a religion of their own volition.

I understand the point you're trying to make. But there are Christians in the Middle East, you know? Minorities, yes. But they do exist. And their presence goes back to the beginnings of the religion. Ditto other religious minorities. And there are practitioners of non-Christian religions in the West.

[Ellener]

3 hours ago, major_merrick said:

n other words, God provides evidence of Himself in nature.

or herself. Herself. Or joy. Or science. Or the only moderated belief of the science or means of production of the time.

How can one God, created or recognised, by humans, possibly be perfect?
Those people who wrote what we call our Bible didn't even speak a common language, and none of them spoke Arameic like Jesus must have done if he really lived in Jerusalem at that time.

If anything means any sense to me it's that religion is at best a part of a broken truth.

How we represent it is up to us:

Nothing I write is anything in any way new:

“It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine, and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man.” ― Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason.

The Age of Reason; Being an Investigation of True and Fabulous Theology is a work by English and American political activist Thomas Paine, arguing for the philosophical position of deism. It follows in the tradition of 18th-century British deism, and challenges institutionalized religion and the legitimacy of the Bible. It was published in three parts in 1794, 1795, and 1807.

It was a best-seller in the United States, where it caused a short-lived deistic revival. British audiences, fearing increased political radicalism as a result of the French Revolution, received it with more hostility. 

Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Age_of_Reason

I am thinking that the interesting and most notable thing was despite popular dissention, the publication and dissemination was allowed. It educated people against there being only one way interpreted by their leaders,

Every era must try to reform its own era of cruelties and blindnesses, but what Christ taught in the Bible stays true precisely because he says nothing matters more to the Lord ( God ) or heaven ( the afterlife we seek ) than kindness.

Matthew 25. Spells it out for Jesus- we don't feed the hungry, treat the sick, attend a prisoner with dignity- we can't even be his followers or go to his heaven.

It's exhibiting double standards anything which tries to preach against this yet claims to be 'Christian'. 

A martyr does not make a religion until they die for their cause; the people who established Christianity were Popes trying to rein in control of disparate congregations who wanted to live under Roman rule yet retain their own 'faiths'. 

And to this day many people living under 'Christian rule' have been able to do the same. Some do good, some do not. Same old same old.

 

 

 

[major_merrick]

@Ellener  IIRC, Thomas Paine was also scolded for his anti-theistic views by a number of the other Founding Fathers.  But philosophers and theologians have debated these things for millennia, and nobody will be convinced who doesn't want to be convinced.  Interesting how that works. 

One big thing for me is making sure that things "match up."  As in, do science and faith work together?  Does the Old Testament match the New Testament?  Does Scripture match history?  When I have time to dig into the supposed inconsistencies, I find my faith confirmed rather than disproved.  Some might argue for the possibility of confirmation bias in my experiences, but I went into faith as a total skeptic.  I converted as a formality to enable my marriage, and ended up a believer after taking a closer look. 

I'm lucky that my husband has been very gentle with me about faith issues.  He accepted my doubts, and told me that he'd offer an explanation if I had questions but would generally leave me alone about it.  I know my community realized early on that I was a skeptic, and had no problems with me.  I've experienced a lot of rejection by family and society, but I found acceptance in this community.  I went through a period of depression and insecurity - nobody at temple services had any problems with me sitting in my husband's lap or needing to be really close.  My need for affection was simply endorsed, and became part of my experience with God.....God's provision for my needs through the hands of people.  

I watch how my husband teaches his children.  He weaves faith into their other experiences so it is less a lecture or preaching and more about an experience of God.  Having been to different churches, I've noticed that many people pray in a formal manner.  It felt silly to me.  But my husband?  He just talks to God....I'm only hearing one side of the conversation, but I know there's a second person involved.  This faith is informal and highly relational. 

So, on one hand we have the intellectual pursuit of God.  On the other hand, we have the pursuit of acceptance and relationship.  Evangelism that uses both will draw more people in,  I think.

 

[Trail Blazer]

4 hours ago, Justanaverageguy said:

Honestly this just doesn't make any sense when talking about Christianity. Like literally none. Normally Christianity gets criticized for the exact opposite of this - for "preaching" and "evangelizing". The whole foundation of Christianity is "The great Commission". Jesus instructs his followers to go out in to the world to spread the teaching as far and as wide as possible. To make the teaching and access to God available to as many as possible. I believe the words are:  “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every living creature. Everyone who hears and believes will be saved".

Christianity started as a tiny jewish sect that consisted of literally a few hundred followers in one town and grew into the largest and most wide spread religous teaching in the world. It spread within the middle east - to Europe across the entire roman empire to the far reaches of the Americas and Asia. Today the bible is the most published book in the history of humanity by such a large margin I think the next 10 most published books don't even come close. The bible publishes approx 500 million copies every year. This is larger then the highest selling non religious books of all time sell in their entire life span. To say the teaching hasn't been made available or accessible is just unfounded. Sure there are probably some cut off amazonian tribes who don't have access to it. But I would estimate something like 99% of the human population can get access to the Christian teaching today - but even still the followers are called to try to get it to the few who don't have access. 

My post was directed at the person I quoted, regarding a specific thing mentioned;

"It is common to hear people say that there are many paths to God.  My faith teaches that there is only one path....a very narrow one."

This is what @major_merrick originally said, and what my post specifically quoted.

 

[Trail Blazer]

4 hours ago, Acacia98 said:

I understand the point you're trying to make. But there are Christians in the Middle East, you know? Minorities, yes. But they do exist. And their presence goes back to the beginnings of the religion. Ditto other religious minorities. And there are practitioners of non-Christian religions in the West.

I'm glad you understand the point I'm trying to make.  Unfortunately your post doesn't give me much by way of helping me understand what your point is, though.

There are minorities of Christians in the Middle East just as there's minorities of Muslim and many other non-Christian believers right throughout the west.

Almost every religious person believes the religion they were introduced to an early age, owing to their cultural background, is the correct one.  It's an alarming statistic, wouldn't you say?

[Trail Blazer]

5 hours ago, major_merrick said:

@Trail BlazerI think that a lot of how God judges people depends on their level of knowledge and willingness to have a relationship.  Romans 1:18-23 provides an explanation: 

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who [d]suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is [e]manifest [f]in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and [g]Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like [h]corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

In other words, God provides evidence of Himself in nature.  Even as a child, I looked around me and I knew there was God.  However, believing that God disliked me, I did not seek a relationship with Him.  I had a choice - and that choice would have lead to Hell.  If people look around, believe in the existence of God, God will help them find the right path.  In modern times with all our information and means of communication, that path is easier to find than ever, even in the depths of the jungle. 

Hell is not a place for punishing people.  Hell was prepared as a jail for the devil and his rebellious demons.  But for people who don't want a relationship with God on His terms?  If they wouldn't be happy hanging out with God in heaven, where else is there to go?  God doesn't want people to go to Hell.  People end up there by rejecting heaven. 

It's more important to god that one worships him, rather than devote time to be a good person to fellow human beings?  If you ask Muslims, they'll tell you the exact same thing.  That Allah is the correct god and he will punish you if you turn your back on him.

I have had an equal amount of exposure to both Christian (Catholic) and Islamic teachings.  They both espouse similar lines when it comes to accepting god.  Except.for the fact that Islam's depiction of hell is a lot more brutal.

After my parents separated, my father re-discovered his faith.  He re-married back is his home country before returning to America and having a nrw family of his own.

I'd spend time with him and his wife in California on summer break.  I've partaken in Islamic religious ceremonies.  I've experienced Eid, Rammadan, prayer in a mosque.  You name it, I've seen it.

I've felt the pull from both Christianity and Islam.  I've got (half) siblings who are all (but one) ardent believers in their Islamic faith.  Why is it that I'm not like them?  Clearly, having a different upbringing and exposure to a multitude of beliefs.  That's why.

I've sought the existence of god but found no evidence.  All I've found is fanatic believers who cannot conceive that what they believe is incorrect.  Four-thousand religions in this world, how to pick which one is right...

Youa and your husband are teaching your children about Christianity.  They are going to grow up with little doubt in their mind that Christianity is correct.  You're no different to a family in, say, Iran, who teaches their children that Islam is the correct religion.

Somebody is wrong, though.  Yet somebody will pay the ultimate price of burning in hell because their parente taught them the wrong religion.  

How does god reconcile with this?

The effects of religious indoctrination are well known.  If you instill ideas into children's minds before they're at an age where they can critically think, it will fundamentally impact their ability to later critique the very ideas that's been instilled inside them.

When later faced with any inconsistencies, to use critical thinking in order to make sense can invoke what's known as cognitive dissonance.  Cognitive dissonance can be too uncomfortable for many, hence a lot of people will not seek information that could fundamentally change their preconceptions.

 

 

[major_merrick]

@Trail Blazer OK, I will address one big difference between Christianity and Islam, since that seems to be your focus. 

Yes, worship is a part of my faith.  But it is merely a way of giving thanks, a way of expressing gratitude to somebody who has done a lot for us.  My husband asks the fundamental question - if God is holy, righteous, perfect, etc.. why would He create us?  Why would He bother?  Underneath it all, the Christian answer is that God was lonely and wanted friends.  He made us to be as much like Him as possible, knowing the risks that we would betray and hurt Him.  God wanted relationships with people whom He could walk with, talk with, and share with.  Jesus incarnation wasn't solely to redeem us, but it allowed God to enter into the totality of the human experience.  Pleasure, pain, friendship, betrayal, family, community, food, exhaustion, and other aspects of our physicality. 

You might say that sounds rather human....or perhaps that in our need for companionship, we imitate the divine.  Does Islam have anything that resembles this?  I have obviously not studied all 4,000+ human religions.  But in what I've described, the faith I've discovered seems to stand by itself.  "One of these things is not like the others."

My husband can teach children all the doctrine and laws, and help them to memorize Scripture.  That may or may not keep them in the faith.  But I see his goal as guiding them into a relationship with a heavenly Father who is very responsive.  Experiencing that is something unlikely to be forgotten.  Heaven and Hell are then defined in terms of the presence or absence of relationship.  Heaven is heaven because being in relationship with the Creator is the best thing possible - all good things are made by Him.  Hell is hell because of the absence of relationship with the Creator - and without Him, good things are not possible...and evil is made possible because of the people and spirits who are abandoned there.  Hell without its residents would be an empty, blank place.  Heaven without God would be an empty, blank place. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by major_merrick

[Trail Blazer]

24 minutes ago, major_merrick said:

@Trail Blazer OK, I will address one big difference between Christianity and Islam, since that seems to be your focus. 

Yes, worship is a part of my faith.  But it is merely a way of giving thanks, a way of expressing gratitude to somebody who has done a lot for us.  My husband asks the fundamental question - if God is holy, righteous, perfect, etc.. why would He create us?  Why would He bother?  Underneath it all, the Christian answer is that God was lonely and wanted friends.  He made us to be as much like Him as possible, knowing the risks that we would betray and hurt Him.  God wanted relationships with people whom He could walk with, talk with, and share with.  Jesus incarnation wasn't solely to redeem us, but it allowed God to enter into the totality of the human experience.  Pleasure, pain, friendship, betrayal, family, community, food, exhaustion, and other aspects of our physicality. 

You might say that sounds rather human....or perhaps that in our need for companionship, we imitate the divine.  Does Islam have anything that resembles this?  I have obviously not studied all 4,000+ human religions.  But in what I've described, the faith I've discovered seems to stand by itself.  "One of these things is not like the others."

My husband can teach children all the doctrine and laws, and help them to memorize Scripture.  That may or may not keep them in the faith.  But I see his goal as guiding them into a relationship with a heavenly Father who is very responsive.  Experiencing that is something unlikely to be forgotten.  Heaven and Hell are then defined in terms of the presence or absence of relationship.  Heaven is heaven because being in relationship with the Creator is the best thing possible - all good things are made by Him.  Hell is hell because of the absence of relationship with the Creator - and without Him, good things are not possible...and evil is made possible because of the people and spirits who are abandoned there.  Hell without its residents would be an empty, blank place.  Heaven without God would be an empty, blank place. 

All of your responses confirms exactly why I am atheist;

There is no proof that we were created by any god, let alone any of the 4,000+ gods for each and every religious belief.

God was lonely?  Did it just dawn on god one day that he was lonely?  An omniscient being would already know that he'd get lonely before he felt it, so why did he wait?

What was the purposes of the dinosaurs 65 million years ago?  

I don't want to cause offense, but your husband's "guiding" of your children to faith is, in reality, presenting them with unverifiable information as a true fact.

Your children will find it very difficult to view the world from an objective perspective when they're older as they have preconceptions which will cloud their ability to critically think.  That's called indoctrination.

God already know everything, so he already knows who is going to heaven and who's going to hell.  We've hardly got free will if our destiny is already decided upon before we're even conceived.

Let me reiterate, 4,000 religions.  Only one of them can be right.  Or, maybe none of them?  Yes, I think none of them... there's too little evidence to suggest any provide a plausible explanation for how or why we're here. 

[major_merrick]

@Trail Blazer I haven't found anything new in what you've said.  I've heard all this before.  If it works for you, then be content.  One thing's for sure - we're all going to find out in the end if we were correct.  Either we find heaven, hell, reincarnation, or nothing at all.  And let me say this - NOBODY can verify it.  Not you, not me.  We take what we can out of what is available to us in the form evidence, but that only goes so far.  Which is why the rest is called faith.  I'm able to deal with some of the lack of verification. 

I've known a number of atheists over the years.  It surprises me how "militant" so many of them seem to be.  I would think that not believing in God would be pretty simple.  I wonder if some atheists underneath it all believe in a deity, but dislike it.  People who openly hate God are few.  I've met only one or two who have been honest and said, "Yeah, I believe in God....and absolutely I loathe the bastard."  I guess they are called anti-theists or miso-theists.  I mean, if it is an illusion, why does it matter?  But it seems that atheists have a desire proselytize.  Why is this?   If an atheist is correct in the end, what does it matter that everybody else was incorrect?  What does it matter that they taught their kids to have faith?  The result is the same - meaningless life, meaningless death.  The worms go in and the worms go out.  Death is the equalizer. 

My husband has, in argument, used the concept of Pascal's Wager .  In summary, we are all playing a game in which we bet with our lives.  Believing in God doesn't seem to have a downside whether you're right or wrong.  And if you want to place your bet on the side of God existing, then you go looking for the choice that seems most logical, or the most different from the rest.  Which is kind of how my decision-making process went.

Edited December 9, 2020 by major_merrick

[Watercolors]

Trail Blazer, as a fellow Atheist like you, I never ask people to debate the existence of god with me, b/c 1) I can't change their belief and 2) they can't change my non-belief.

What did you want or need from people, by creating this thread? Are you considering a return to a religious faith?

I accept that religious people will never respect me for being an Atheist. That I'll never be allowed to not believe, b/c our society is 99% full of religious believers hence the 4,000 active religions.

I've learned that it's futile to even try to discuss Atheism vs. Religious Belief because it's a debate that goes in circles. So, no point having a discussion like this because neither side will ever concede their belief to the other side.

[Trail Blazer]

46 minutes ago, major_merrick said:

@Trail Blazer I haven't found anything new in what you've said.  I've heard all this before.  If it works for you, then be content.  One thing's for sure - we're all going to find out in the end if we were correct.  Either we find heaven, hell, reincarnation, or nothing at all.  And let me say this - NOBODY can verify it.  Not you, not me.  We take what we can out of what is available to us in the form evidence, but that only goes so far.  Which is why the rest is called faith.  I'm able to deal with some of the lack of verification. 

I've known a number of atheists over the years.  It surprises me how "militant" so many of them seem to be.  I would think that not believing in God would be pretty simple.  I wonder if some atheists underneath it all believe in a deity, but dislike it.  People who openly hate God are few.  I've met only one or two who have been honest and said, "Yeah, I believe in God....and absolutely I loathe the bastard."  I guess they are called anti-theists or miso-theists.  I mean, if it is an illusion, why does it matter?  But it seems that atheists have a desire proselytize.  Why is this?   If an atheist is correct in the end, what does it matter that everybody else was incorrect?  What does it matter that they taught their kids to have faith?  The result is the same - meaningless life, meaningless death.  The worms go in and the worms go out.  Death is the equalizer. 

My husband has, in argument, used the concept of Pascal's Wager .  In summary, we are all playing a game in which we bet with our lives.  Believing in God doesn't seem to have a downside whether you're right or wrong.  And if you want to place your bet on the side of God existing, then you go looking for the choice that seems most logical, or the most different from the rest.  Which is kind of how my decision-making process went.

You have heard what I've said all before?  I'm sure you have!  I understand that it's confronting to face facts, so I suppose it's much easier to be content in what you believe in.

We're all going to find out when we die.  True!  However, I'd rather not waste my life devoted to a cause which has no verifiable proof...

If I'm wrong, and I'm thrown in hell for being an otherwise good person who simply exercised critical thought processes to arrive at a conclusion that there wasn't evidence to support the belief in a deity, then so be it. 

A god who values that he be worshipped (without providing evidence of his existence) over tangible acts of kindness to other entities in the physical world is not someone I'd want to associate with any way.

Do I hate god?  No!  I don't believe in god, so I don't hate something that I don't believe even exists.  What do I think of god as a character depicted in monotheism?  Hmmm... some things are better left unsaid...

The inherent issue I have with religion is that it deals in absolutes.  It's so rigid in its doctrine that there is no scope for debate among it's core fundamental teachings. 

When two opposing belief systems intertwine culturally, it can and usually will result in anything from discrimination, persecution or all-out war.

Having said that, I have many friends and family who are religious.  They are wonderful people, and not because of their religion, but because of the morality they derive from within themselves.

The next best thing to all religions being eradicated would be for them all to co-exist in harmony.  Given the unlikelihood of that ever happening, all I can do is, like you said, "if it works for you, be content" whilst hoping others can follow this motto, too.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Trail Blazer

[major_merrick]

5 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

I understand that it's confronting to face facts, so I suppose it's much easier to be content in what you believe in.

Can you prove that God doesn't exist?  I don't see that you have access to a a different set of facts that I do.  We draw different conclusions from those facts and the importance we ascribe to them. 

I suppose we could get into the Creation/Evolution debate.....God only knows how long a thread on THAT would be.  To make it mercifully short, I've looked at what facts I understand (biology and paleontology are not fields I have experience in) and the facts I read about point me toward intelligent design, rather than away from it.  I just don't find a satisfactory explanation for the origin of the Earth and the species that inhabit it.

I do not need perfect proof of something to believe.  I would, however, need nearly perfect dis-proof to overrule personal experience.

[Trail Blazer]

16 minutes ago, major_merrick said:

Can you prove that God doesn't exist?  I don't see that you have access to a a different set of facts that I do.  We draw different conclusions from those facts and the importance we ascribe to them. 

I suppose we could get into the Creation/Evolution debate.....God only knows how long a thread on THAT would be.  To make it mercifully short, I've looked at what facts I understand (biology and paleontology are not fields I have experience in) and the facts I read about point me toward intelligent design, rather than away from it.  I just don't find a satisfactory explanation for the origin of the Earth and the species that inhabit it.

I do not need perfect proof of something to believe.  I would, however, need nearly perfect dis-proof to overrule personal experience.

You haven't spoken to too many atheists if that is a line you're going to trott.  

I don't have to disprove the existence of god any more than you have to disprove the existence of the flying spaghetti monster.

The burden of proof lies with those making the claims. 

Science seeks to understand the observable universe.  Religion seeks to provide answers upon which there is no scientific basis.

You dismiss evolutionary biology but espouse intelligent design?  Where does the story of Adam and Eve sit amongst your beliefs?

[major_merrick]

@Trail Blazer And yet, you...the atheist, are the one who started the thread.  So, who is making claims here?  You asked for the reasons why people believe, and I've provided such.  Are you looking to be convinced into a faith?  Are you looking to be confirmed in your avoidance of faith?  Or something else?  I'm not attempting to convince you, as the whole thing is ultimately not between you and me.  I don't have to prove the existence of God any more than you have to disprove it.  It just is what it is. 

Yes, science is a process by which we attempt to understand the observable universe.  But to say that religion and science are inevitably opposed to each other is a fallacy.  Science is a tool, one of many.  It is not a thing in itself, nor is it fixed, nor is it a thing that one can own exclusively.  For every argument in favor, there is also one against.  Which is why this thing will never be settled.  I take the story of the 6 day Creation and the story of Adam and Eve at face value, exactly as described in Scripture.  Some people have attempted to fuse creation and evolution into theistic evolution...to me, it is an uncompelling, wishful compromise.  I find that evolutionary biology as I understand it misapplies evidence.  I simply do not see a convincing plethora of the transitional forms that Darwin expected would be found. I am not convinced that dating techniques involving carbon and radioactive elements are accurate, nor am I convinced that analysis of the position of fossils in sediment can appropriately place them in a timeline.  Those are my reasons....you may look at the same items and draw your own conclusions. 

I think perhaps that my sect of Christianity is somewhat different than others in terms of proselytization.  We don't actively evangelize, hold revivals, or preach on street corners.  We don't promote our "brand" and our temple is for the community by invitation, rather than open to the public.  Conversion happens more through friendships and relationships, like how my husband brought me in and how his Wife #1 brought him in.  Some convert from agnosticism to faith.  Others, like my husband, simply come form a different brand of Christianity.  Exposure to it is less like turning on a light switch than it is a slow drip-drip-drip of water wearing a hole through a stone. 

[Justanaverageguy]

8 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

My post was directed at the person I quoted, regarding a specific thing mentioned;

"It is common to hear people say that there are many paths to God.  My faith teaches that there is only one path....a very narrow one."

Sure but your response didn't really line up with that. Your response made out that this path was not known or made available to people which are two different things. The path being narrow and specific vs not being available or know are different things. You made specific references to lost tribes or people in the middle east who didn't have access to the teaching. 

4 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

I've become increasingly disillusioned by anti-intellectualism in America.  Anti-intellectualism, conspiracy theories and evangelism are all intrinsically linked.

Now, that's not to say that religious people are stupid.  However, as I've made the point prior, anything which serves in absolutes (that is, theory or doctrine which provides no evidence for its claims but refuses to be subjected to peer-reviewed scrutiny) is a quasi form of anti-intellectualism.

So then can I ask when I advised a solution to this question might be to take a outside view and do a comparison of the "end results" of societies based around different faiths .... You didn't comment ? This for me is the big one. The proof is in the pudding as they say. Find me a society that has been based around atheism for any significant length of time that has flourished and prospored. They are literally unicorns. Often talked about but never seen 😂 

I feel the same way about them as you do about God. Where is the evidence ? For me the evidence of the Christian God can clearly be seen by comparing the state of societies based around Christianity vs other faiths. No society is perfect they all have issues and have made past mistakes - but one segment of societies seems to have thrived more. Bounced back from difficult circumstances quicker. 

It's like looking at different gardens and seeing which one receives the best water and fertilizer. 

I consider atheists in the West to be kind of like the child of wealthy and wise family. Which had a long line of ancestors who built a nice garden and then passed on to the child the garden and the keys to maintaining the health of the garden. Water and fertilize it regularly follow these rules. The child decided not to water and fertilize the garden for a short period and noted that the plants didn't immidiately die. They concluded their entire line of ancestors were morons who had wasted their time watering and fertilizing a garden when clearly it didn't need these things.😂 Then they went around town yelling at people to stop watering their garden as their was no evidence plants needed water 

Edited December 9, 2020 by Justanaverageguy