Why do you believe that 'your' God is the correct one?

[Zona]

On 12/8/2020 at 9:11 AM, Trail Blazer said:

 

Why?  Why do atheists "have to" explain what caused the universe to come into existence? 

Of course, scientists will endeavor to search for evidence for how the universe came to form, but that is besides the point.  The burden of proof rests on those making the claims.  Currently, no religion has a shred of scientific evidence to prove their claims.

Are you familar with the term god-of-the-gaps?  It's a logical fallacy where you claim that gaps in scientific understanding warrants a deference back to religion as a plauisble explanation.  This is simply wrong.

As for your last sentence, once again, a statistical anomaly is not therefore proof of the god which you choose to believe in.  However, I could easily turn the question back onto you if I felt the need to be flippant by positing, "just who created god?"

You don't have to explain those things if you don't want to, but then you are just ignoring an elephant in the room and not dealing with what logically follows once you claim there was no sentient creator. That amounts to living in denial. And to say one day science will explain it is a statement of faith (believing in things unseen).

In any case, I am not talking about God of the gaps.  I'm talking about having a realistic view of how unlikely it is that the universe and life came about by accident. Just take the example of how many ways the complex proteins in our bodies can be folded (astronomical), and only a few ways are useful to life. But even if such an unlikely thing happened, that protein would be useless without all the other things that need to be  in place for life to exist. Occam's razor states that the simplest explanation is usually the right one and preferable to an overly convoluted one, and I think any reasonable person would agree with that. If life looks like an engineered system, then it most likely is.

So let's say we were travelling together in space, and land on some planet where we find a watch (or cell phone or whatever). I say it was created by a sentient being because it shows all the characteristics of purposeful design. You say, ok who created that sentient being? If you can't explain that, then I won't believe it was. That makes no sense right?

So that brings us to the first cause. If there wasn't something that always existed, then we have the problem of infinite regression (who created god? X created god, who created X? Y created X, and so on). Theists believe God is the first cause, and that he has always existed and wasn't created. Time came into existence at the same point that our universe did. We are used to things coming into existence or being created, because that is the nature our universe, but there is no requirement that time exists outside of our universe. In fact, eternal things (things that always existed) can't be subject to time because it creates a contradiction (no point in time could ever be reached, because there is an infinite amount of time before that point.

 

[Ellener]

37 minutes ago, Curious-Sam said:

martyrdom is to kill themselves to kill others.

That happened early in Christianity too. Maybe it's a 'stage' ( well it happened more than once, so 'stages' ) in a developing religion? 

[Ellener]

5 minutes ago, Zona said:

If life looks like an engineered system, then it most likely is.

Not necessarily.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect 

[Ellener]

7 minutes ago, Zona said:

ignoring an elephant in the room

The biggest elephant in the room with Christian religions is that Jesus favoured the poor and the long-suffering downtrodden, yet the majority of the people who lead religions in his name came up with control and exploitation instead. 

[Zona]

29 minutes ago, basil67 said:

@Trail Blazer as a fellow athiest, I'm completely unable to fathom why you have a need to pick apart the personal beliefs of others.    It's the antithesis of how I taught my children to respect difference of faith and to accept only respect in return.

 

I'm just curious. This is a sincere question.

You say your views changed over your life. Did you have some epiphany that caused you to become an atheist, and if so, what was it?

I went the opposite way from staunch atheist to Theist.

[Zona]

2 minutes ago, Ellener said:

The biggest elephant in the room with Christian religions is that Jesus favoured the poor and the long-suffering downtrodden, yet the majority of the people who lead religions in his name came up with control and exploitation instead. 

I'm not sure it is a majority, but yeah it is a big problem. However, every single Christian church or denomination I have come in contact with puts a HUGE emphasis on charity. That is probably the thing that binds Christians of all flavors, more than anything else. 

[basil67]

1 minute ago, Zona said:

I'm just curious. This is a sincere question.

You say your views changed over your life. Did you have some epiphany that caused you to become an atheist, and if so, what was it?

I went the opposite way from staunch atheist to Theist.

No, no epiphany.  I had spent my early years accepting scripture, but in all honesty, I think I just liked the kindness of the scripture teacher.   Then by the time I was in year 7, some forty years ago, my beliefs solidified.

[Justanaverageguy]

8 minutes ago, Ellener said:

That happened early in Christianity too. Maybe it's a 'stage' ( well it happened more than once, so 'stages' ) in a developing religion? 

It may have happened - but if it did it runs in complete 100% opposition to the Christian teaching. Its the literal opposite of the teaching. So yes and individual and extremist who says they are christian may have done this - but if they did there is no conceivable way they could justify the action within the teaching. Not only could they not justify it - but the teaching explicitly and directly teaches against it.  There are plenty of things Christian people and countries have done bad things in the past which don't align with the teaching - but always there isn't a way to justify the action within the teaching. 

I'm not well versed in the full Muslim teaching. Maybe someone here can answer. Does the teaching itself actually justify, allow or encourage this behaviour ? Because that would be a very different thing.   

 

 

 

[Ellener]

1 minute ago, Zona said:

I'm not sure it is a majority, but yeah it is a big problem. However, every single Christian church or denomination I have come in contact with puts a HUGE emphasis on charity. That is probably the thing that binds Christians of all flavors, more than anything else. 

There's charity in most religions. 

Jesus was teaching us to embrace poverty and empathy. To all be equal. 

I was brainwashed from an early age, so I won't give up my faith, but I sure as hell will question any hypocrisy!

 

 

[Zona]

7 minutes ago, Ellener said:

There's charity in most religions. 

Jesus was teaching us to embrace poverty and empathy. To all be equal. 

I was brainwashed from an early age, so I won't give up my faith, but I sure as hell will question any hypocrisy!

 

 

Yes, most religions put a huge focus on charity. And yes, Jesus spent most of his time convincing people to focus on others and be less selfish (the golden rule, right?). Just reading through the bible can be a game changer in that regard, taking the focus off yourself and your stuff and putting it onto helping others. 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Zona

[Ellener]

3 minutes ago, Justanaverageguy said:

I'm not well versed in the full Muslim teaching. Maybe someone here can answer. Does the teaching itself actually justify, allow or encourage this behaviour ? Because that would be a very different thing.   

The problem with creating 'religious' books, they weren't dropped from heaven by an angel. I'll research that- I know how the Christian Bible was formed out of Judaism, but had not looked in the same depth at the Qu'ran. 

They evolved from bloodier eras too, though in a different way- the US just lost thousands of people's lives as an economic decision, though when a policeman murdered a citizen a huge protest occured. 

It's sometimes hard to see things in context.

 

 

[Ellener]

3 minutes ago, Zona said:

Just reading through the bible can be a game changer in that regard, taking the focus off yourself and your stuff and putting it onto helping others. 

It depends where you look; the Bible has some pretty obnoxious passages as well as encouraging or beautiful. 

[Justanaverageguy]

17 minutes ago, Ellener said:

The biggest elephant in the room with Christian religions is that Jesus favoured the poor and the long-suffering downtrodden, yet the majority of the people who lead religions in his name came up with control and exploitation instead. 

Sure as with all spiritual teachings there is a difference between having the teaching and following it. I don't know if you can say the majority of religious leaders are about power and control. Your average local priest - pastor - church leader or church elder generally isn't seeking power or control. At the grass roots level I tend to find Christianity and the people working at this level is pretty much all about "Service". Its pretty inspiring actually. But as the larger Church institutions creates hierachies - basically "upper management" and also in the USA the birth of "Mega Churches" where more concentrated power is available. Yes human nature you do find instances of people using the position primarily for self gain.  

Anything that has the ability to give a person power has the potential for exploitation by individuals seeking power. No doubt the Christian Church was (and still is) somtimes used this way at different periods. Sometimes the exploitation came from people directly within the church seeking power and self gain. Sometimes it came from outside the Church from Monarchies or governments using the Church as a kind of "trojan horse". A lot of the missionary work done around the middle ages - Western Monarchies and rich Lords and traders essentially funded these and used good intentioned Christian missionaries to go in and peacefully teach and convert people in foreign lands. So they would make good relationships - learn the language or teach the foreigners their language. Setup small Christian footholds. The missionaries where acting in good faith - purely wanting to spread the teaching to the people. The Monarchs and traders who backed them weren't. Their intention was merely to open up the country for trade and potential even colonize it. 

No one says they always followed the teaching and often it wasn't black and white all good or all bad. Rather a mixture of people with good intentions and others with selfish intentions. 

 

[Ellener]

7 minutes ago, Justanaverageguy said:

No one says they always followed the teaching and often it wasn't black and white all good or all bad. Rather a mixture of people with good intentions and others with selfish intentions. 

That's the only thing I disagree with you- the biggest problem is the people think they are following teachings, but teachings can be skewed.

How anyone can think it's okay to be wealthier than their neighbours is a pretty fundamental Jesus Christian basic, yet America has more church goers than most countries.

 

[Emilie Jolie]

1 hour ago, Ellener said:

It's sometimes hard to see things in context.

 

This.

Context is the key to everything, in any topic, for anything, including faith.

[Justanaverageguy]

2 hours ago, Ellener said:

That's the only thing I disagree with you- the biggest problem is the people think they are following teachings, but teachings can be skewed.
How anyone can think it's okay to be wealthier than their neighbours is a pretty fundamental Jesus Christian basic, yet America has more church goers than most countries.

That's a tricky one. Because the Christian teaching has quite a lot of depth and layers to it - and  a couple of different things are taught that are layered on top of each other that seem to be contradictory but really aren't. Prosperity is a core part of the Christian teaching. One of its central attributes. But so is generosity and charitable giving.  Loving your neighbour and helping those in need. Rather then these being oppositional they are actually supposed to flow together. Follow the teaching so you will prosper. Then use your prosperity to help those who didnt follow the teaching and are in need.  That giving will cause you to prosper even more - then you can give/help even more (repeat). That's the premise. "Give and it will be given to you. A good measure pressed down and shaken together to make room for even more will be poured into your lap"

Jesus never taught you won't be wealthier or more blessed then your neighbour. He literally teaches the oppposite of this. He teaches if you do these things you WILL be wealthier and blessed exceedingly more then your neighbour. But then he issues a challenge. To sacrifice these blessing to give them away and use them to help others just like Jesus did. We are supposed to imitate Christ and as Paul states it as: "You know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes he voluntarily chose to became poor, so that you through His poverty you might become rich." Ultimately Jesus challenges us to go "all in". To sacrifice all the blessings - all the prosperity - all the good things that come to us - like him. To give it all away - then we will be given treasure in heaven. This is the teaching - but not many are able to do it completely - we tend to follow it on a sliding scale. Some priest and devout people go all in. Others will try to give as much as they can and do selfless service work. Others tieth and give 10%. Some give very little.  

Now I'm not going to offer a strong defense of modern current day USA from a Christian perspective. There is clearly MASSIVE room for improvement in the socity and like I've said above Christian ethics have regressed in many Western countries. But if you look at the USA in the past - say the 1940s and 50s. The USA gave away today's equivalent of 130 Billion dollars to Western Europe to rebuild it after WW2. Gave away not loaned under the Marshall Plan. They basically rebuilt Germany on their own dime. Also if you look at the charitable giving index - the last 60 years or whatever they are so far ahead of every other country its scary. Not only in total money given but % of GDP. The last comparison I saw that compared individuals % of income given to charity the USA was more then double the second placed country which was New Zealand. 

Could they and should they be doing more. Yes 100% absolutely. No country as a whole is really even close to truly following Christs commandments. We as countries and a global community could do so much more then we are. We should give more. 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Justanaverageguy

[Ellener]

29 minutes ago, Justanaverageguy said:

To give it all away - then we will be given treasure in heaven. This is the teaching - but not many are able to do it completely - we tend to follow it on a sliding scale. Some priest and devout people go all in. Others will try to give as much as they can and do selfless service work. Others tieth and give 10%. Some give very little.  

It's easier for a camel to enter the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven?!

I've mostly been kind and generous in my own life, but now I'm seeing the difficulty of it as a person descending into poverty. It's hard to be struggling, that's why civilised societies have welfare and survival mechanisms for all citizens.

We live too long too now, it's been joked about how elderly our wealthy politicians are, but why aren't we learning the lesson of that? Many more people will be thrust into poverty if we don't plan for longevity. Let them all die seems to be the attitude in 2020, but every single Covid death should have been loved and cherished not written off. If it's a Christian country I mean. 

At least let's be honest about it.

 

 

[Justanaverageguy]

29 minutes ago, Ellener said:

It's easier for a camel to enter the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven?!

How then can any man be saved ? With man it would be impossible. But all things are possible with God. 

Believe me when I say - I'm not disputing what God wants and desires. I know what your pointing to and you are right. Like I said Jesus wants us to give everything like he did. When you ask Jesus the question - How much should I give ? The answer is Yes. There isn't a % attached to it. The answer is simply Yes. But God also recognizes man's flaws and imperfections. He knows the number of people who can actually do this is very small. Which is why Jesus came and offers grace. I was just trying to point out that Christianity is linked with blessings - not just being poor.

29 minutes ago, Ellener said:

I've mostly been kind and generous in my own life, but now I'm seeing the difficulty of it as a person descending into poverty. It's hard to be struggling, that's why civilised societies have welfare and survival mechanisms for all citizens

Do you live in the USA or another country ? If so then yes I totally understand your complaint. The lack of social welfare services and socialized health care is definitely one of its biggest societal shortcomings. I think one of the issues or differences with the structure compared to Europe, Canada, Australia, NZ is it relied on its voluntary\charity and church foundations to support many of these needs and they simply can't cope anymore. They need fundamental change. 

29 minutes ago, Ellener said:

Let them all die seems to be the attitude in 2020, but every single Covid death should have been loved and cherished not written off. If it's a Christian country I mean. 

2020 has been a very difficult year for the whole world. No doubt. The USA in particular the last 4-5 years has seen massive issues with internal political conflict, social unrest, destablizing many services and systems. I;ve spoken about the issues I've seen across the western countries emerging in recent years - because in my view they are a result of moving away from Christianity and starting to loose the core of what held these socieites together and made them "better".  I don't think "let them die" is really the right word. I think the social and political volativity - has resulted in really poor response and difficulty controlling the outbreak so its been hit especially hard. But many other countries who have done everything they could have also seen huge impacts as well. Many European countries have had huge lock downs coordinated political and medical responses and still seen tens of thousands die as well. Its incredibly sad and an incredibly tough time for the whole world  

29 minutes ago, Ellener said:

now I'm seeing the difficulty of it as a person descending into poverty. It's hard to be struggling

In the spirit of our discussion on giving - and in the spirit of the season we are entering Christmas. Can I ask if there is anything I can do to help in a material sense ? Then aside from that there something you need right now in your life that would help your current situation that I could pray for ?  

Edited December 10, 2020 by Justanaverageguy

[Ellener]

1 minute ago, Justanaverageguy said:

Can I ask if there is anything I can do to help ? 

Just the fact you offer is help in itself.Thank you.

But I would never accept charity except if it was official like benefits or welfare or something. I guess that's because I'm from England. We divorced the concept of treating the sick, feeding the hungry etc from 'charity'. 

11 minutes ago, Justanaverageguy said:

The lack of social welfare services and socialized health care is definitely one of its biggest societal shortcomings. I think one of the issues or differences with the structure compared to Europe, Canada, Australia, NZ is it relied on its voluntary\charity and church foundations to support many of these needs and they simply can't cope anymore. They need fundamental change. 

Exactly.

[Zona]

6 hours ago, Ellener said:

It depends where you look; the Bible has some pretty obnoxious passages as well as encouraging or beautiful. 

The old testament does have things that are hard to swallow because those things happened at a completely different time in history when circumstances made things much harsher, but the words of Jesus are amazing to me.

Sorry to hear about your financial issues. Hopefully it is temporary due to Covid? Don't be too proud. Take some charitable assistance to get yourself over the hump.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Zona

[Allupinnit]

8 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

I'm genuinely interested in the answers that others feel are correct.  However, I'm also genuinely interested in why people would elect to stop using their brain if it's the only way for a narrative to fit.  It makes no sense to me.

 

Do you "think" your way into every relationship?  My faith has never been in conflict with my intellect and what I know of the world around me; quite the contrary.  God wants your heart; it's a divine romance.  

[Allupinnit]

Without Christianity you can also say good bye to all of the Ivy League schools, the Red Cross, the Salvation Army, in addition to the vast majority of hospitals having been founded by the Christian church (which is why you see so many of them with religious names).

[Allupinnit]

7 hours ago, Ellener said:

That happened early in Christianity too. Maybe it's a 'stage' ( well it happened more than once, so 'stages' ) in a developing religion? 

I find that the faults we find in religion and the atrocities done in the name of God have everything to do with ultimately selfish human nature, and not the nature of God Himself.  Jesus came to show us a different way, a way that spoke to the heart of people, which is why it has resounded throughout the earth and literally split time in half as we know it (BC/AD).

I don't go to a mega-church, I don't believe in conspiracy theories, I'm a Democrat.  I give generously.  You could argue that the moment people start to mix politics with religion we miss the point entirely (think Crusades).  Jesus wasn't political, yet both parties (well Jesus would've wanted universal health care!) seem to want a piece of Him.

[Zona]

11 minutes ago, Allupinnit said:

Without Christianity you can also say good bye to all of the Ivy League schools, the Red Cross, the Salvation Army, in addition to the vast majority of hospitals having been founded by the Christian church (which is why you see so many of them with religious names).

It's worse than even that. If there is no God, then we don't have a soul that transcends the physical (we are purely physical in nature). If we are physical in nature only, then we are just chemical machines that are completely subject to the laws of physics. In other words, no free will, and consciousness is an illusion.

When I was an atheist I lived as a Theist. I assumed that I had free will, if I didn't, what would be the point of arguing anything or claiming to have autonomy over my choices? It's impossible to live that way.

[Allupinnit]

I was agnostic for a long time and also thought being a Christian meant checking my brain at the door and living my life how I saw fit.

When I started living by the principals given to me by Jesus everything got astronomically better.  He created me, He knows how I'm wired, and He wants the very best for me.  I have "peace that passes understanding."  It transcends human cognition.