Why do you believe that 'your' God is the correct one?

[Justanaverageguy]

Also just one really simple example to try to drive home the previous point about the ethics, morals and structure of a society and where they came from and how they are taken for granted. The Jordan Peterson quote I used: "You say you don't believe in the existence of the Christian God - but because of your upbringing - you still behave like you believe he exists"

I want to take a simple example from the tiny bit of information you referenced regarding your family and husband (maybe kids ?) and ask a couple of questions. 

7 hours ago, basil67 said:

hmmm... my athiest family is doing pretty well for ourselves.  I would say that this is due to hubby's hard work 

The question is simply: Do you and your husband have a monogomous marriage relationship where neither partner has another partner or husband/wife and has an agreement not to have sex outside your relationship ? If so why did you decide to come to this arrangement  ? Do you think this is a normal practice ? If so why ? 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Justanaverageguy

[Zona]

9 hours ago, Justanaverageguy said:

This may be opening up a "can of worms" that isn't really in alignment with the topic - but I find it interesting to discuss with fellow believers so hopefully its ok to post. My understanding is the vast majority of what is spoken about in the book of revelation and the other apocalypic literature that goes with it - the prophecy of Daniel and also Jesus words regarding the "end of the age" in Matthew 24 has already happened 2000 years ago. It has long since been and gone. Specifically it culminated with the Roman Siege of Jerusalem in 70AD when the second temple was destroyed (Which Jesus says will be the key sign of the fulfillment of the prophecy) and almost all jewish people alive at the time were slaughtered and killed by the Romans. 

I'm not going to force any beliefs down your throat - its up to each individual to study scripture and history and evaluate and consider what it says and I'm sure you have been taught to interpret apoccalyptic scripture differently but maybe just something to consider and look at. I was initially told something similar - then I actually read the texts closely - looked at translations - and looked at history and what happened also discussed with many other Christian teachers. 

Jesus in Matthew 24 talks about his  "second coming" and "the end of the age". Some older bibles mis-translate this passage as the "end of the world" or "end times". The original greek word used is "aion" - which doesn't mean end of the world. "Aion" means a specific span of time. Its where the word "eon" comes from in english which we use to split out geological ages when we study the earths history. Separate distinct spans of time. Its basically a bookend to one designated "Span of time" and the beginning of another. Its the same word jesus uses when he talks about blasphemy against the holy spirit. Which won't be forgiven in this "aion" or the "aion" to come. Typically now most bibles translate this as "Age".  

aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

Daniels prophecy, Jesus descriptions of the end of the Age and Revelation are all talking about the end of the previous age. The age Jesus came to usher and end to.  We have of course literally split time into BC/AD specifically around this time period designating the difference in the two ages. The destruction and slaughter spoken of at the end of the "aion" was the destruction of Jerusalem During the first roman Jewish war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70_CE)  - 3 days before passover when all the jewish people in the land had descended upon Jerusalem to celebrate the festival- The Roman army sieged the city - burnt the temple to the ground and massacred the Jewish inhabitants men women and children. Josephus a jewish man who worked as a historian for Rome states that 1.1 million Jews were killed in the sige and only 97,000 survived and were taken as prisoners to be used as slaves or gladiators in the roman Colosseum.

This is why Jesus said - this generation will not pass away before all these things come to pass.  
This is why Jesus mourned when he road into Jeruslem on a donkey. 

And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, 42 saying, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side 44 and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

The christian teachers I've spoken with basically call this the "Day of the Lord" and that since Jesus took control of the earth these repetitive cycles of judgement repeat themselves continously every generation depending on how that generation behaves. Just looking at modern history these periods would be marked by events like  WW1 ..... WW2 .... etc. Its a cyclical and repetitive process. 

The number and accuracy of the predictions made in the bible is actually quite astounding.

Here  is a list of predictions about Jesus that came to pass.

It used to be easy for detractors to just say that they were made up after the fact. However, now that we have found earlier and earlier transcripts, including many from before the time of Jesus (dead sea scrolls), we can have much more confidence that they were recorded before the events happened.

In the spirit of Christmas, here is one of the more famous predictions/prophesies:

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel (God with us).

If the bible was faked, all these prophesies had to be dealt with and incorporated into it. No small feat.

[Zona]

7 hours ago, basil67 said:

hmmm... my athiest family is doing pretty well for ourselves.  I would say that this is due to hubby's hard work 

Hubby's hard work, and the fact that your family live like Theists, believing we have free will and have agency and autonomy.

[Allupinnit]

15 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

I've had beliefs forced down my throat for all of my adolescence.  By both Muslims and Christians.  Granted, nobody on here has.  I have invited the discussion.

I don't mean offense by stating that one stops using their brain in order to have faith, but really, that's what it comes down to.  It's all about feelings and emotion and nothing to do with logic and reason.

 

And yet, Christians started every Ivy League university.  How can you explain that we are all brainless people walking around in a delusion when the evidence speaks otherwise?

[Justanaverageguy]

1 hour ago, Allupinnit said:

And yet, Christians started every Ivy League university.  How can you explain that we are all brainless people walking around in a delusion when the evidence speaks otherwise?

Exactly - And somehow the enlightenment period was almost exclusively focused in Christian countries. Curious that 🤔 from Gelileio to Descartes to Francis Bacon to Gottfried Wilhelm to Kepler. Not only Christians but outspokenly devout Christians who believed their work was in alignment with the teaching.

Nobel prize winners. Christians have won a total of 65.4%. Jews who make up .02% of the worlds population have won 21.2%. Yes read that again .... 21.2%. So 86.6% of Nobel prizes have been won by Jews or Christians. Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists have won 2.5%.combined. Atheists.and agnostics 7% (and almost all come from christian and Jewish families but later reclassified.themselves) That seems a pretty normal and evenly distributed ratio based on the worlds population. 😂 Clearly no advantage given to any of these groups. Not only that. Brainless and illogical.

Judge a tree by its fruit. That's Christian speak for look at the evidence.😊

Edited December 11, 2020 by Justanaverageguy

[Trail Blazer]

6 hours ago, Justanaverageguy said:

Exactly - And somehow the enlightenment period was almost exclusively focused in Christian countries. Curious that 🤔 from Gelileio to Descartes to Francis Bacon to Gottfried Wilhelm to Kepler. Not only Christians but outspokenly devout Christians who believed their work was in alignment with the teaching.

Nobel prize winners. Christians have won a total of 65.4%. Jews who make up .02% of the worlds population have won 21.2%. Yes read that again .... 21.2%. So 86.6% of Nobel prizes have been won by Jews or Christians. Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists have won 2.5%.combined. Atheists.and agnostics 7% (and almost all come from christian and Jewish families but later reclassified.themselves) That seems a pretty normal and evenly distributed ratio based on the worlds population. 😂 Clearly no advantage given to any of these groups. Not only that. Brainless and illogical.

Judge a tree by its fruit. That's Christian speak for look at the evidence.😊

Religiosity has run parallel with human progression.  To suggest that human progression is only due to religion is an extremely false and/or ignorant assertion.

Based on this logic and thr stats you're using to bolster this argument, you'd best be converting to Judaism.  The Jews punch far above their weight.  Imagine if more people were Jews... 

[Trail Blazer]

7 hours ago, Allupinnit said:

And yet, Christians started every Ivy League university.  How can you explain that we are all brainless people walking around in a delusion when the evidence speaks otherwise?

You really need to read and comprehend what I've said more thoroughly. 

I have never said that Christians, or any religiously inclined person for that matter, is brainless and afflicted by a delusion which renders them permanently dusfunctional.

I've only ever said that in order to believe in something without a shred of evidence is to elect to not use your brain.  It's all about emotions and nothing to do with logic.

The delusion is to talk to something that's not present in a physical sense.  There's no evidence for the existence of god, yet every religion would have adherents to their faith that pray and hear god speak to them.

Who's god is the correct one?

[Trail Blazer]

8 hours ago, Zona said:

Hubby's hard work, and the fact that your family live like Theists, believing we have free will and have agency and autonomy.

Believing one has free will and agency is living like theists?  Well yeah, theists believe doing so is a sin, so that's only living like the "bad" theists...

[Trail Blazer]

20 hours ago, Zona said:

 

I don't know if you are mathematically inclined, but in mathematics, we have something called proof  by contradiction. It's used more generally in basic logic also. You assume what you are trying to prove to be false. If it creates a contradiction (something that is always false), then you have proved it true.

Basically everything I have written is a proof by contradiction. We have two cases that are either true or false and only one can be true. 1) The universe and life were designed and created by the will of a sentient being (i.e. God, by any definition). 2) The universe and life came into existence by random forces just getting lucky.

I assumed 2 to be true, and then showed the contradictions created by that assumption. 

You saying there is zero evidence is basically just an assertion without anything to back it up, and ignores all the points I brought up that you mostly avoided dealing with.

Not that I am one to judge. I was were you are until my early to mid 20's.

 

I'm no mathematician, but I haven't forgotten my BODMAS - order of operations, I learnt in school all those years ago. 😁

If you're going to use proof by contradiction to prove that an almighty creator designed the world then you are erroneously seeking answers to something way outside the scope of such an application.

How about you do so the other way around?  You would yeild the exact same result, thus your answer would be inconclusive, rendering such exercise as useless.

As for points I've ignored?  I dunno, man... I've tried my best to respond to and address everything posted in here that's been directed at me. 

This has been a pretty hot topic and I don't have a lot of time during the day to devote to online stuff, so I may have missed one or two things along the way.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Trail Blazer

[basil67]

10 hours ago, Zona said:

Hubby's hard work, and the fact that your family live like Theists, believing we have free will and have agency and autonomy.

OK.  So I take it God grants wealth to the believers and non believers alike.    Thanks for the feedback

[basil67]

10 hours ago, Justanaverageguy said:

Also just one really simple example to try to drive home the previous point about the ethics, morals and structure of a society and where they came from and how they are taken for granted. The Jordan Peterson quote I used: "You say you don't believe in the existence of the Christian God - but because of your upbringing - you still behave like you believe he exists"

I want to take a simple example from the tiny bit of information you referenced regarding your family and husband (maybe kids ?) and ask a couple of questions. 

The question is simply: Do you and your husband have a monogomous marriage relationship where neither partner has another partner or husband/wife and has an agreement not to have sex outside your relationship ? If so why did you decide to come to this arrangement  ? Do you think this is a normal practice ? If so why ? 

Yes, I live in a society who's culture and laws are based on Judeo Christian principles with a growth based economy.  Monogomous defacto relationship, two Gen Z kids.   The reason we have a monogomous relationship is because a) we don't want anyone else and b) we value the family unit which monogomy provides.   As far as our economy goes, Gen Z kids living in our country are now unlikely to ever own a property without the benefit of a helping hand from their Boomer/Gen X parents, so will end up poorer than us.   

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but hope it answers your question.

 

[major_merrick]

11 minutes ago, basil67 said:

OK.  So I take it God grants wealth to the believers and non believers alike.    Thanks for the feedback

Actually, yes.  And Satan also, as the "prince of this world" can enable those who follow him.  In Psalm 94, King David laments, "Rise up, O Judge of the earth; Render punishment to the proud.  Lord, how long will the wicked, How long will the wicked prosper?" 

And in Matthew 5:44-45, (right after the Beatitudes and some other moral teachings) Jesus says, "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." 

At least from what I read, just because you're an atheist doesn't keep God from sending you blessings in this life.  Because it is about making a free will choice.  If God sent Christians all the good things and the atheists all the bad things, how could you choose freely?

[Allupinnit]

3 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

You really need to read and comprehend what I've said more thoroughly. 

I have never said that Christians, or any religiously inclined person for that matter, is brainless and afflicted by a delusion which renders them permanently dusfunctional.

I've only ever said that in order to believe in something without a shred of evidence is to elect to not use your brain.  It's all about emotions and nothing to do with logic.

The delusion is to talk to something that's not present in a physical sense.  There's no evidence for the existence of god, yet every religion would have adherents to their faith that pray and hear god speak to them.

Who's god is the correct one?

I don't see how that's true when celebrated, perfectly logical, intellectual people are also staunch believers.  You said it was delusional to commune with God.  History disagrees with you.

Did you know that Biden is a strict Catholic?  Goes to mass at least weekly.  Do you think he's delusional?  Do you think he has to set aside his intellect (brain) to practice his faith?  You DO know that part of faith is communication and relationship with our Heavenly Father, right?  We are not components that make up a whole.  Everything is connected. 

[Justanaverageguy]

3 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

To suggest that human progression is only due to religion is an extremely false and/or ignorant assertion.

Conversely to suggest - specific religions - which created very specific conditions and societal structures did not play a major factor in human progression is an extremely false and ignorant assertion

Edited December 12, 2020 by Justanaverageguy

[Justanaverageguy]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but hope it answers your question.

My point was merely the institution of marriage as you understand and experience it - monogamous sexual relationships .... Was not necessarily a normal or common thing for most of human history. Different cultures had vastly different approaches to marriage - many still do. polygamy was common in many different cultures. Usually a male was aloud to take a number of wives. In Muslim cultures a man is allowed 4 wives - India didn't outlaw polygomy until the 1950s after the influence of British colonization. Ancient Greece allowed polygamy. Even traditional Judaic tradition originally allowed polygamy which Jesus then came and taught them was wrong.

The practice of monogamous marriage - is common in the west today because it's engrained into the culture. It's engrained into the culture because of Christianity. You think you "chose" this but did you really ? Would you be in a monogamous marriage relationship if your grew up in a culture were polygamy was the norm and what the culture encouraged ?

My point is simply even if you say you don't believe in God many aspects of your life are still a result of Christian influence. The traditions and historical influence of the culture. Thus in many regards you are following christianities rules - even though you say you don't believe in it.

It's not those who hear the word who will be blessed - but those who do it.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Justanaverageguy

[basil67]

@Justanaverageguy I'm still not sure why you're telling me this.  I haven't been questioning living together in a monogamous way.  

 

[Justanaverageguy]

8 minutes ago, basil67 said:

@Justanaverageguy I'm still not sure why you're telling me this.  I haven't been questioning living together in a monogamous way.  

 

I said it because you quoted me and said you are an atheist - yet you feel like you have a blessed life. You then asked if only believers were blessed. I was merely pointing you to a fact that is true for many adults in western culture who claim to be atheists. Even though they call themselves atheists - because of parental and societal influence - They still follow "the rules" Christianity passed down. 

It's what the Jordan Peterson quote I gave you points to. "You say you are atheist and don't believe in the Christian god - but because of the way you were raised - you still behave like you believe he exists"

I used marriage as one very simple example of how this is true - purely because it was the only extra information you provided in your post.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Justanaverageguy

[basil67]

@Justanaverageguy I’ve always maintained that if I’m wrong about about whether or not there is a deity,  come judgment day, any half decent god will look at the actions of the human and not simply whether or not they were a person of faith.   If this what you’re talking  about?

[Justanaverageguy]

38 minutes ago, basil67 said:

@Justanaverageguy I’ve always maintained that if I’m wrong about about whether or not there is a deity,  come judgment day, any half decent god will look at the actions of the human and not simply whether or not they were a person of faith.   If this what you’re talking  about?

Yes exactly. 😊 This is literally the Christian teaching - the actions matter. It's just I guess easier to act "correctly" when you know the rules or are influenced by a large group who is following them.

The point I was trying to make elsewhere is 1st generation atheists or atheists who grow up in a society that had its rules and values created by a large majority Christian faith actually do follow christian rules in large part due to upbringing and societal history. That's where most atheists today in the west fit. They may not study the teaching or go to mass but they have the benefit of all the others before then and around them that did/do.and generally speaking they follow the rules. Some atheists often follow the rules better then many theists. 

If however a culture progressively and continuously moves away from Christian faith as it is currently doing in the west you start to lose this majority influence. You then tend to see progressive  "rule creep". Progressively over time as the influence of the traditional source of ethic diminishes - people start re writing the rules and changing the definitions of right action. The societal influence can then potentially change dramatically over just a few generations to influence people away from "right" action instead of toward it.

So an atheist in the west today - calls themself atheist - but for the.most part still largely  follows Christian rules due to society. But in a couple of generations time if people stop following faith without majority influence that won't necessarily be the case. 

It's why I have said from a "scientific" perspective there is no evidence to suggest a majority atheist society can flourish and succeed - because we have never seen one really exist before. It's basically just theoretical. We have hard data we can compare between different faiths on which ones are more likely to succeed and flourish. We have evidence over large spans of time as to how these societies progress.

And all this is aside from "spiritual" benefits theists acknowledge as part of the benefit of faith. The benefits of actively practicing faith like masses communion etc.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Justanaverageguy

[basil67]

1 hour ago, Justanaverageguy said:

It's why I have said from a "scientific" perspective there is no evidence to suggest a majority atheist society can flourish and succeed - because we have never seen one really exist before. It's basically just theoretical. We have hard data we can compare between different faiths on which ones are more likely to succeed and flourish. We have evidence over large spans of time as to how these societies progress.

It's no longer theoretical.  If we're talking mainstream religions, the world has a number of countries which are majority irreligious.  

Czechs report as 72% 

Estonia - 59.2%

Netherlands 53%

United Kingdom 52%

New Zealand is high 40's and increasing rapidly

I will concede that different sources show different figures and don't want to get into a 'source war' with you.   But I think we can agree that there are a few countries who now tip the scales.  The census details for many countries show ongoing, substantial increases in those who report 'no religion' in census data, my own country Australia included.   And I would argue that these countries who have a majority irreligious people are functioning perfectly well.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/02/once-the-same-nation-the-czech-republic-and-slovakia-look-very-different-religiously/#:~:text=Around half that many (21,more religiously observant than Czechs.

https://www.thearda.com/internationalData/countries/Country_77_5.asp

https://www.statista.com/statistics/527782/population-of-the-netherlands-by-religion/

https://www.stats.govt.nz/news/losing-our-religion#:~:text=In the 2018 Census%2C 2%2C264%2C601,29.6 in the 2001 Census.

https://www.natcen.ac.uk/news-media/press-releases/2019/july/a-britain-that-is-losing-its-religion,-has-faith-in-science-and-is-adopting-more-liberal-ideas-about-sex-and-relationships/

[Trail Blazer]

3 hours ago, Allupinnit said:

I don't see how that's true when celebrated, perfectly logical, intellectual people are also staunch believers.  You said it was delusional to commune with God.  History disagrees with you.

Did you know that Biden is a strict Catholic?  Goes to mass at least weekly.  Do you think he's delusional?  Do you think he has to set aside his intellect (brain) to practice his faith?  You DO know that part of faith is communication and relationship with our Heavenly Father, right?  We are not components that make up a whole.  Everything is connected. 

History?  What history?  3,000 years of monotheism?  How long has the human race existed for?  I guess that religious science-deniers will recite whatever the bible says, but it is in fact a lot longer than 6,000 years.

You do realize that humans have been talking/praying to gods for perhaps as long as humans have existed.  Prior to monotheism, the Greeks prayed to a whole range of gods.  Were they deluded when they believed in Zeus, Thor and Apollo?

Muslims pray to Allah and I can tell you now, I know plenty of Muslims that claim they've seen all the effects one would see if Allah answered their prayers.  Oh, but they must all be deluded, but Christians aren't?

My Irish grandmother was as devout a Catholic as you would ever meet.  She was a strong, intelligent and practical lady.  Capable in so many ways, an amazing person in general. 

I have no idea if she believed that when she prayed to god, he spoke to her.  If she'd ever claimed she had, I would no doubt felt that she was deluded in that context.

I believe that many people need to assign purpose and meaning to everything in life.  A religion neatly does this with the only requirement being that you don't question it. 

Just have faith.  Have faith and you will be rewarded.  Don't have faith?  Oh, that's bad, you'll be punished.  But hey, if God is so powerful that he can create everything, then he's one to be both feared and revered.  Best we stay on his good side... 🙄

As for Biden, he's an intelligent man.  However, my point still stands.  Faith requires faith, doesn't it?  Not intelligence and logic.  So, it stands to reason then that Mr. Biden hardly uses his intelligence when it comes to being faithful to the scripture.

[Justanaverageguy]

45 minutes ago, basil67 said:

It's no longer theoretical.  If we're talking mainstream religions, the world has a number of countries which are majority irreligious.  

Czechs report as 72% 

Estonia - 59.2%

Netherlands 53%

United Kingdom 52%

New Zealand is high 40's and increasing rapidly

I will concede that different sources show different figures and don't want to get into a 'source war' with you.   But I think we can agree that there are a few countries who now tip the scales.  The census details for many countries show ongoing, substantial increases in those who report 'no religion' in census data, my own country Australia included.   And I would argue that these countries who have a majority irreligious people are functioning perfectly well

Yes absolutely we agree on this. I won't debate the sources the stats look about right from what I've seen as well. I made this point myself - about the recent trend of western countries moving away from Christian faith. The current "ebb" in faith.

The thing is this trend is an incredibly recent trend over a tiny period of time when you look at history.  Faith levels go up and down over time - ebb and flow based on conditions. There was a big ebb during the early 1800s. Then In the west faith was pretty much back at an all time high coming out of WW2 in the mid 1900s where it then stabilised and then  gradually over time began a slow decline. In the last 20 years that trend accelerated - the new generation is not taking up faith and the old devout generation is passing away the stats are  sliding more and more towards atheism. In the Netherlands for example which you mentioned in 2010 it was still majority Christian by around 10% -  55% chrisitian. The tipping point came in about 2015/2016 when Christianity dropped below atheism.

So if you want to base your case that atheism can produce healthy vibrant productive thriving societies on 4 years worth of data - In  countries where all the history, all the social systems, ethics and morals were traditionally based around a heavy majority practicing christian population and where most of the the older leaders are still Christian .... Be my guest but that doesn't seem very wise. 🤔

Again to me this is like not watering your garden for one day and saying - "See - See - it didn't die. Plants don't need water." That's literally how silly it sounds to me. A pine tree can go without water for a year without any outward visible signs of stress. After 2 years it will show significant signs of drought stress and usually even if you start watering it again - it will still die. With living things Deterioration takes time - but very often once it reaches a certain point it can't be recovered. 

The real test will be - how will this trend impact these countries in the next 100 - 200 years ? That's a real test. As then you get to see how majority Atheistic beliefs over successive generations  effect the society, it's structures, it's ethics and morals and if your a Christian you don't like the odds of what this means.

Another metaphor used in Christianity is that humans are like sheep. Humans are herd animals - they follow the group. The whole concept of Christianity was to get a large enough group in the society to move in a certain direction towards the ideal beahviours so others will instinctively follow. The way I view it we have just disconnected the younger generation from the shepherd. There are still a lot of sheep following the shepherd but that number is thinning out so the influence towards the direction of th ethic and behaviours that built these nations is being eroded.  The young sheep have decided to "go it alone" but it's way to early to see the effects of what that means. They haven't  blindly walked off a ravine yet - but that's not to say they won't.

Also because of your own beliefs I'm trying to speak to you from a logical scientific point of view. About how to view societal progression over time. There are many other elements within the Christian teaching about what it says will happen if a group of people abandon  the faith and walk away from God.  I won't even go into the details as this isn't something you believe in - but let's just say what it says happens is not pleasant. 

This is basically the story of the old testament.  It's the repetitive and continuous story arc through the whole story. People believe in, obey and follow god .... A few generations later the faith weakens and they walk away from it saying we don't need god ..... Bad s*** happens. Everyone comes back to God. For people of faith this isn't a new or novel idea. It's like cyclical - and always ends up the same.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Justanaverageguy

[basil67]

So there are countries which have majority religion which are tearing themselves apart with cultural and political divide.   Or the countries who engage in wars between different factions of the same religion?  

Why did religion fail to give those citizens the path to ideal behaviours?   

 

[Trail Blazer]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

@Justanaverageguy I’ve always maintained that if I’m wrong about about whether or not there is a deity,  come judgment day, any half decent god will look at the actions of the human and not simply whether or not they were a person of faith.   If this what you’re talking  about?

Sorry, but it doesn't work like that.  Being a good person comes a distant second to believing in god.  

But hey, which god, when there's over four-thousand religions out there?  Just believe the local pastor, or the local sheikh if you're in the Middle East or North Africa.

[Justanaverageguy]

11 minutes ago, basil67 said:

So there are countries which have majority religion which are tearing themselves apart with cultural and political divide.   Or the countries who engage in wars between different factions of the same religion?  

Why did religion fail to give those citizens the path to ideal behaviours?   

 

Normally it's pretty straight forward. They didn't follow the teaching. You have the teaching it's still very possible to fail or make mistakes. Even in the west this happened frequently over the long course of history - but the core teaching and ethic was still maintained which they would come back to when they strayed and experienced the consequences. Ebbs and Flows.

What you saw in the west was not a "magic bullet"  it was a slow progressive improvement generation upon generation - by trying to follow the teaching and inviting in the healing spirit of God. You had periods of regression followed by periods of restoration but Christian nations by a gulf almost too large to measure outperformed other societies. Why do you think people from other countries all want to move to the west ?

Atheism the jury is out - there is no long term data.

 

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by Justanaverageguy