Why do you believe that 'your' God is the correct one?

[Acacia98]

8 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

I'm glad you understand the point I'm trying to make.  Unfortunately your post doesn't give me much by way of helping me understand what your point is, though.

There are minorities of Christians in the Middle East just as there's minorities of Muslim and many other non-Christian believers right throughout the west.

Almost every religious person believes the religion they were introduced to an early age, owing to their cultural background, is the correct one.  It's an alarming statistic, wouldn't you say?

My point was that you were generalizing too much. And the thing is you don't have to do that to make the argument you were making.

About many people believing the religion they were born into, yep. That's a fact. The statistics are not alarming, though. Not unless you are committed to the idea that there is a right religion and all other religions or lack of belief are wrong. And I'm not committed to that idea at all (but I recognize that many people are). 

Edited December 9, 2020 by Acacia98

[Acacia98]

13 hours ago, Justanaverageguy said:

Honestly this just doesn't make any sense when talking about Christianity. Like literally none. Normally Christianity gets criticized for the exact opposite of this - for "preaching" and "evangelizing". The whole foundation of Christianity is "The great Commission". Jesus instructs his followers to go out in to the world to spread the teaching as far and as wide as possible. To make the teaching and access to God available to as many as possible. I believe the words are:  “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every living creature. Everyone who hears and believes will be saved".

Christianity started as a tiny jewish sect that consisted of literally a few hundred followers in one town and grew into the largest and most wide spread religous teaching in the world. It spread within the middle east - to Europe across the entire roman empire to the far reaches of the Americas and Asia. Today the bible is the most published book in the history of humanity by such a large margin I think the next 10 most published books don't even come close. The bible publishes approx 500 million copies every year. This is larger then the highest selling non religious books of all time sell in their entire life span. To say the teaching hasn't been made available or accessible is just unfounded. Sure there are probably some cut off amazonian tribes who don't have access to it. But I would estimate something like 99% of the human population can get access to the Christian teaching today - but even still the followers are called to try to get it to the few who don't have access. 

He is asking a fundamental question that you don't answer, though. There are communities and individuals that are "unreached" by Christianity today and that were "unreached" in the past. What happens to those folks when they die? Do they get dispatched to hell when their ignorance of Christianity is not their fault? And how is that fair? That seems to be what he's getting at. 

[Justanaverageguy]

25 minutes ago, Acacia98 said:

He is asking a fundamental question that you don't answer, though. There are communities and individuals that are "unreached" by Christianity today and that were "unreached" in the past. What happens to those folks when they die? Do they get dispatched to hell when their ignorance of Christianity is not their fault? And how is that fair? That seems to be what he's getting at. 

Ok sure but actually if you study Christianity this question is answered. There are multiple passages that speak to this situation. 

I'll quote just a couple:

That servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or do as the master has instructed will be beaten with many blows and severely punished. But the one who does not know the master's will and does things worthy of punishment will only be punished lightly.  

The teaching emphasises if you have been given the teaching but choose to ignore it - it's at your own peril. If you never received it and make mistakes your will be shown mercy and given lighter punishments designed to bring you to understanding.

There are similar scriptures regarding Christ from Isaiah and Ezekiel where his role is described as being the "watchman". A guard for the people of the world. His job is to sound the horn to give people the teaching an alert people to what is right and wrong and spread that across the world. It says those who hear the warning but choose to ignore it will be held accountable for their own wrong actions - the blood is on their hands. Those who do not hear the "horn" the warning message will not be held accountable. The blood is on "the son of man's" hands and he will pay for their transgressions.  

If anyone hears the watchman's trumpet but does not heed the warning and the enemy comes and takes their life, their blood will be on their own head. Since they heard the sound of the trumpet but did not heed the warning, their blood will be on their own head. If they had heeded the warning, they would have saved themselves.

But if the watchman sees the danger coming and does not blow the trumpet and the people do not hear the warning and the enemy comes and takes someone's life, I will hold the watchman accountable for their blood. 

Essentially the lost tribes in the Amazon's who never received the warning - will be pardoned. But to any person who heard the teachings and was given access to hear it but choses to ignore. This is the worst case scenario. Also why so much focus is on spreading the teaching and making true disciples who not only hear but obey.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Justanaverageguy

[Trail Blazer]

56 minutes ago, Justanaverageguy said:

Sure but your response didn't really line up with that. Your response made out that this path was not known or made available to people which are two different things. The path being narrow and specific vs not being available or know are different things. You made specific references to lost tribes or people in the middle east who didn't have access to the teaching. 

It's both. @major_merrick stated that the path was narrow for her specific sect sect of Christianity.  That notion, whilst noteworthy in itself, is still subsumed by the greater issue of religious teachings not being accessible to all of humanity. 

So, what happens to those who have never encountered Christianity?  Do they go to hell when they couldn't have possibly rejected something they knew nothing of?

58 minutes ago, Justanaverageguy said:

So then can I ask when I advised a solution to this question might be to take a outside view and do a comparison of the "end results" of societies based around different faiths .... You didn't comment ? This for me is the big one. The proof is in the pudding as they say. Find me a society that has been based around atheism for any significant length of time that has flourished and prospored. They are literally unicorns. Often talked about but never seen  

You refer to atheism as if it's a new concept.

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/disbelieve-it-or-not-ancient-history-suggests-that-atheism-is-as-natural-to-humans-as-religion

 

1 hour ago, Justanaverageguy said:

I consider atheists in the West to be kind of like the child of wealthy and wise family. Which had a long line of ancestors who built a nice garden and then passed on to the child the garden and the keys to maintaining the health of the garden. Water and fertilize it regularly follow these rules. The child decided not to water and fertilize the garden for a short period and noted that the plants didn't immidiately die. They concluded their entire line of ancestors were morons who had wasted their time watering and fertilizing a garden when clearly it didn't need these things. Then they went around town yelling at people to stop watering their garden as their was no evidence plants needed water 

Religion holds back society, it doesn't advance it.  Christianity is in decline across the western world.  In my opinion your analogy is absurd.  

[Trail Blazer]

46 minutes ago, Acacia98 said:

My point was that you were generalizing too much. And the thing is you don't have to do that to make the argument you were making.

About many people believing the religion they were born into, yep. That's a fact. The statistics are not alarming, though. Not unless you are committed to the idea that there is a right religion and all other religions or lack of belief are wrong. And I'm not committed to that idea at all (but I recognize that many people are). 

It's alarming because it demonstrates that rarely does anyone choose a religion.  A religion is merely chosen for you, depending upon where in the world you're born.

If everyone in the world stopped teaching their kids superstitions that their parents taught them whose grandparents taught them and so on and so forth, belief in any religion would cease in one generation.

Isn't it strange that everyone's parents' religion is the correct one?  Well, almost everyone.  Everyone who believes the religion passed down to them.  99 percent.  An overwhelming amount. 

If you're born in southern USA you will almost certainly believe Christianity is correct.  If you are born in the Middle East, you're almost certainly going to believe that Islam is the correct religion.

On another interesting note; what's the difference between a Christian and myself?  We both agree that every religion in the world is wrong, except I just happen to believe that one additional religion is wrong, too.

Funny that, eh?

 

[Justanaverageguy]

3 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

You refer to atheism as if it's a new concept.

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/disbelieve-it-or-not-ancient-history-suggests-that-atheism-is-as-natural-to-humans-as-religion

No I am not saying that at all. Atheism is as old as we have records for. I mean half the old testament is literally covering the path of a group of people who are continually oscilating between dedication to God - then moving back to unbelief  then back to God (repeat). This continual push pull of belief and unbelief - obedience and disobedience showing the consequences when they move away from God. (Bad) They then coming running back to God en mass and experience periods of prosperity only to repeat the same mistakes again. 

What I'm said is there is no functional, prosperous modern society that was built and developed around a population that was predominantly atheists. It doesn't exist. If there is one point it out to me. If atheism is "holding back society" why are all the top 20 countries in the world based around Christian faith ? This is my question. If Atheism is so much better - why is there zero societal evidence over any signfifcant timespan to show this ? Predominantly atheistic societies that prospourand flourish  are unicorns.  They are theoretical only.

[Justanaverageguy]

19 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

Religion holds back society, it doesn't advance it.  Christianity is in decline across the western world.  In my opinion your analogy is absurd.  

How long does it take a plants leaves to wilt when it stops receiving rain ? Have you not seen the crazy stuff going on in the world the last 5+ years ?

You think this is the first time society started temporarily trending towards Atheism ? Never read Nietzche or looked at religosity trends in the 1800s  I guess. "God is dead - we have killed him." 

Edited December 9, 2020 by Justanaverageguy

[Acacia98]

1 hour ago, Trail Blazer said:

It's alarming because it demonstrates that rarely does anyone choose a religion.  A religion is merely chosen for you, depending upon where in the world you're born.

If everyone in the world stopped teaching their kids superstitions that their parents taught them whose grandparents taught them and so on and so forth, belief in any religion would cease in one generation.

Isn't it strange that everyone's parents' religion is the correct one?  Well, almost everyone.  Everyone who believes the religion passed down to them.  99 percent.  An overwhelming amount. 

If you're born in southern USA you will almost certainly believe Christianity is correct.  If you are born in the Middle East, you're almost certainly going to believe that Islam is the correct religion.

On another interesting note; what's the difference between a Christian and myself?  We both agree that every religion in the world is wrong, except I just happen to believe that one additional religion is wrong, too.

Funny that, eh?

 

We don't choose our cultures either. We're born into them. And we often inherit the biases and enmities and alliances of our parents and ancestors. It's our lot as humans. You can try your best to grow beyond the limits set by your culture, but you can't completely escape them. I guess it can be sad. But what can you do?

Btw, the one thing I dislike about religion (even though I'm technically religious) is the fact that there's little room for choice even when the religion teaches that one should be free to choose it (or not). It can be very tyrannical.

[Acacia98]

2 hours ago, Justanaverageguy said:

Essentially the lost tribes in the Amazon's who never received the warning - will be pardoned. But to any person who heard the teachings and was given access to hear it but choses to ignore. This is the worst case scenario. 

Oh, there are plenty such people. For instance, those who were colonized by the people who sought to convert them to Christianity. Remember the Native American and First Nations kids being yanked out of their homes and dispatched to Christian boarding schools to alienate them from their indigenous cultures and force them to adopt the white man's ways? Remember the torture and humiliation and abuse they suffered? Now keep in mind that similar scenarios played put across swathes of Africa and Asia and much earlier in Central and South America.

If that's how you are introduced to Christianity, it's pretty understandable that you may reject it altogether. What category would such people fall into? Those who "heard but did not obey"?

[Justanaverageguy]

6 minutes ago, Acacia98 said:

Oh, there are plenty such people. For instance, those who were colonized by the people who sought to convert them to Christianity. Remember the Native American and First Nations kids being yanked out of their homes and dispatched to Christian boarding schools to alienate them from their indigenous cultures and force them to adopt the white man's ways? Remember the torture and humiliation and abuse they suffered? Now keep in mind that similar scenarios played put across swathes of Africa and Asia and much earlier in Central and South America.

If that's how you are introduced to Christianity, it's pretty understandable that you may reject it altogether. What category would such people fall into? Those who "heard but did not obey"?

Sure so one thing to make clear. If you are a Christian you understand there is a highly intelligent loving and just God that has handed down these instructions on how we should live. He doesn't just arbitrarily hand out black and white punishment and reward without any consideration. Thats a "dumbing down" of the teaching.  What the previous referrences from the teaching are supposed to make clear  ....... is that God takes circumstances and your level of understanding and exposure to teaching into account. Its not a one blanket rule for everyone - your judged according to what you could reasonable have been expected to do under the circumstances. 

He puts it this way: "To everyone who has been given more - more will be asked and expected. And to the one who has been entrusted with much - much more will be demanded".  You can reverse this and say it this way: "To everyone who has been given less - less will be asked or expected. And to the one entrusted with less - it won't be demanded they reach the same high standard." 

With that in mind on evangalizing and converting people Christians were never instructed to "force" Christianity on people. They were to encourage to earnestly try to teach and convert as many people as possible because of the goodness it can bring to their life and the lives of their family/community/city/country.  How it can slowly ripple out transform communities one person at a time.    Ripping children from homes - thats obviously not an ideal introduction to Christianity - it goes against the core tenants of the teaching. But your absolutely right ..... it did happen in some places. This is not in anyway how God wanted the teaching spread. So of course this will be taken into account when he judges per what I outlined above.  No one says Christian people are perfect - thats not the argument. They made plenty of mistakes - because they are human. The argument is the God behind this teaching is the true God. He provides instruction for a happy blessed life and is also able to offer spiritual blessings and cleansing to restore and rejuvenate people and communities when they follow him. 

What is more concerning to me is not the random tribes in the Amazon who never got the teaching - or a group who were taken under duress like you described. My concern is for the younger generations of Westerners. Children and younger Adults who were not deprived of the teaching. Were not ripped from their loved ones forcible in terrible circumstance. Rather were raised in loving Christian homes that had been blessed by God due to the actions of the people that came before them. Raised by Christian parents - who tried to lovingly encourage them and introduce them to the teaching. They were given deep exposure to the teaching in their youth in a loving family environment - and born into a society that was blessed and given significantly more resources, opportunities and better living conditions due to past generations. In spite of this they chose to reject the teaching and walk away from God. 

When you understand how God judges - these are the souls to be worried about.

[Trail Blazer]

1 hour ago, Justanaverageguy said:

With that in mind on evangalizing and converting people Christians were never instructed to "force" Christianity on people. They were to encourage to earnestly try to teach and convert as many people as possible because of the goodness it can bring to their life and the lives of their family/community/city/country.  about.

Right.  So the crusades didn't happen?

1 hour ago, Justanaverageguy said:

 What is more concerning to me is not the random tribes in the Amazon who never got the teaching - or a group who were taken under duress like you described. My concern is for the younger generations of Westerners. Children and younger Adults who were not deprived of the teaching. Were not ripped from their loved ones forcible in terrible circumstance. Rather were raised in loving Christian homes that had been blessed by God due to the actions of the people that came before them. Raised by Christian parents - who tried to lovingly encourage them and introduce them to the teaching. They were given deep exposure to the teaching in their youth in a loving family environment - and born into a society that was blessed and given significantly more resources, opportunities and better living conditions due to past generations. In spite of this they chose to reject the teaching and walk away from God. 

When you understand how God judges - these are the souls to be worried about.

Or perhaps they just used their brains?  There is no logical reason to believe in god of any religion.  You can pray for me if it makes you feel better, though. 

[Trail Blazer]

2 hours ago, Acacia98 said:

We don't choose our cultures either. We're born into them. And we often inherit the biases and enmities and alliances of our parents and ancestors. It's our lot as humans. You can try your best to grow beyond the limits set by your culture, but you can't completely escape them. I guess it can be sad. But what can you do?

Btw, the one thing I dislike about religion (even though I'm technically religious) is the fact that there's little room for choice even when the religion teaches that one should be free to choose it (or not). It can be very tyrannical.

Yeah, that's correct.  I, like most posters here, have been born and raised in the west.  However, whilst I know and understand this, it's my choice how little or how much of any other's culture I wish to experience.

Culture and religion are intertwined.  However, whilst we're generally encouraged as a society to expand our horizons and experience other cultures for our own growth, the same cannot be said for religion.

Religion is generally about control and subversion of experiences which could undermine its doctrine.  It's considered only acceptable to delve into another's religion where its history has a relevant cross over period.

 

[Trail Blazer]

18 hours ago, Justanaverageguy said:

How long does it take a plants leaves to wilt when it stops receiving rain ? Have you not seen the crazy stuff going on in the world the last 5+ years ?

You think this is the first time society started temporarily trending towards Atheism ? Never read Nietzche or looked at religosity trends in the 1800s  I guess. "God is dead - we have killed him." 

Oh, I've seen some crazy stuff going on in the world in the last five years.  One only needs to look outside their front door to see it happening on their doorstep.

Implying that crazy stuff happening is someway correlated to a decline in Christianity is ludicrous.  [removed politics]

Take the Scandanavian countries as an example.  There's a very strong link between the happiness of the citizens of many Western European countries, their quality of life index and their irreligious numbers.

America would have to be the most religious western nation yet the most unhappy as well.  America is a fractured and divided country and having more people believe in fairytales from 2,000 years ago is the last thing the country needs to repair itself.

Edited December 10, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed politics

[Trail Blazer]

5 hours ago, Justanaverageguy said:

No I am not saying that at all. Atheism is as old as we have records for. I mean half the old testament is literally covering the path of a group of people who are continually oscilating between dedication to God - then moving back to unbelief  then back to God (repeat). This continual push pull of belief and unbelief - obedience and disobedience showing the consequences when they move away from God. (Bad) They then coming running back to God en mass and experience periods of prosperity only to repeat the same mistakes again. 

What I'm said is there is no functional, prosperous modern society that was built and developed around a population that was predominantly atheists. It doesn't exist. If there is one point it out to me. If atheism is "holding back society" why are all the top 20 countries in the world based around Christian faith ? This is my question. If Atheism is so much better - why is there zero societal evidence over any signfifcant timespan to show this ? Predominantly atheistic societies that prospourand flourish  are unicorns.  They are theoretical only.

For most of our recorded history, religion has been prevalent throughout.  Religion is a tool used to indoctrinate and control masses.  Atheism wasn't allowed to prosper.  When blasphemy was punishable by death, who dared to speak their mind?

History has many examples for why it was benefical for individuals in a given society to remain religious.  The Islamization of Bosnia and Hertzegovina is a prime example of this. 

When the Ottoman Empire established itself in Bosnia, the uptake of Islam saw a sharp increase.  The citizens of that region in that time period were at a distinct advatage socially if they uptook Islam.

To this day, Bosnia and Herzegovina is a unique place amongst the Balkan nations, being the only one with a majority Muslim population.  This is just one example of how historical events determine what religion people will uptake centuries or millenia later.

Don't you ever sit and wonder what you would believe if you were born elsewhere, in a nation or region which didn't practice Christianity?  Can you honestly say, hand on heart, that if you were born in the Middle East, to parents who were strict adherents to the Islamic faith, that you would still be a Christian?

[Justanaverageguy]

56 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

Don't you ever sit and wonder what you would believe if you were born elsewhere, in a nation or region which didn't practice Christianity?  Can you honestly say, hand on heart, that if you were born in the Middle East, to parents who were strict adherents to the Islamic faith, that you would still be a Christian?

Yes I do actually - something I've pondered quite a bit as I travel. And the conclusion I've come to as I visited many countries is - by and large I thank the high heavens and have immense gratitude I was born in a Christian country. What a privileged life I was given - not beset by war or famine or poverty and having relatively stable and honest governance. Its not lost on me. I can't hand on heart saw what I would do if born into that  situation - but I can tell you like many I would probably want to move to one of the Christian based western countries. Honest answer based on comparative well being from my travels. 

1 hour ago, Trail Blazer said:

Or perhaps they just used their brains?  There is no logical reason to believe in god of any religion.  You can pray for me if it makes you feel better, though. 

Well you made it clear your not interested in being converted - but honestly I will throw in a few hail Mary's for you  People with this strong of a feeling about God and religion are often very close to a conversion without realizing  I'm predicting some spiritual magic in your future. 

I am also from a pure curiosity perspective interested in the intellectual side of your argument. Because I'm still not satisfied you've given me a real answer to the following 2 questions I gave you. 

1. Why are the top 20 ranked societies today all based around populations which had an overwhelming and long standing majority adhering to the same faith - Christianity ?  This despite the fact they are scattered across 4 different continents and with wildly different ethnic make ups. This is more then just statistically significant. Its like an outlier of all outliers. Its a like a skyscrapper jumping off the comparison chart. 

Also 2. Why is there not a single healthy, vibrant, flourishing society that was based around Atheism on the list ? Why is their no evidence to support the fact majority atheistic populations are able to produce better societies then those based around Christianity (or even other faiths) ? Where is the data to support your view ? Your argument is threat of death for denying the faith. But surely the would have been  strong vibrant atheist societies develop outside Christianity no ? 

For me what I find surprising about the atheist debate today is the fact there is this naive idea that "atheism" is like some new concept and also that is a "positive thing". "New Atheism". Like it never occured to people before now that God might not be real and people didn't say "we can do it without God" before. This is not new. Its like ground hog day. Faith always ebbed and flowed - this generations ebb is just deeper.  But at least atheistic arguments of the past during similar "ebbs" you could see they respected the importance of the ethical teachings of religion even if they didn't believe in God. Atheists like Nietzsche didn't believe in God .....  but he found the idea that society was about to abandon God terrifying. Literally terrifying. Like he thought it would cause the collapse of the entire western civilization into Nihilism from a pure logical point of view not even accounting for the effects of God and spiritual influence people of faith take into account. He didn't believe in God and at the same time believed this idea had the potential to completely destroy civilization.  Thats a least an atheist I understand gets it. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by Justanaverageguy

[Ellener]

16 hours ago, major_merrick said:

I'm lucky that my husband has been very gentle with me about faith issues. 

What business is it of his? You can be any faith you want, or no faith. You are American!

Actually no faith is probably better than accepting someone else's faith. 

11 hours ago, major_merrick said:

We don't actively evangelize, hold revivals, or preach on street corners.  We don't promote our "brand" and our temple is for the community by invitation, rather than open to the public.

Why can't people come in and out freely? 

 

[major_merrick]

2 hours ago, Ellener said:

What business is it of his? 

Why can't people come in and out freely? 

 

His family, his business.  And the whole "not being unequally yoked" thing.

As for the temple, it is private property, so security is important.

[Allupinnit]

OP are you genuinely interested in the answer or just trying to argue the point of what you already believe - that religions spring up out of cultures?

I learned long ago that God doesn't need me to argue on His behalf to "convince" others.  It's a heart issue.  Nobody "thinks" their way into a faith.  That's not what faith IS.

[Allupinnit]

@Justanaverageguy - I find that to be true because of the nature and teachings of Jesus.  For the first time in history, someone advocated for the rights of the undesirables:  women, poor, sick, etc. and taught a way of loving that was selfless to the point of death.  No other religion teaches that.  You before me.  

[Trail Blazer]

15 hours ago, Justanaverageguy said:

I am also from a pure curiosity perspective interested in the intellectual side of your argument. Because I'm still not satisfied you've given me a real answer to the following 2 questions I gave you. 

1. Why are the top 20 ranked societies today all based around populations which had an overwhelming and long standing majority adhering to the same faith - Christianity ?  This despite the fact they are scattered across 4 different continents and with wildly different ethnic make ups. This is more then just statistically significant. Its like an outlier of all outliers. Its a like a skyscrapper jumping off the comparison chart. 

Also 2. Why is there not a single healthy, vibrant, flourishing society that was based around Atheism on the list ? Why is their no evidence to support the fact majority atheistic populations are able to produce better societies then those based around Christianity (or even other faiths) ? Where is the data to support your view ? Your argument is threat of death for denying the faith. But surely the would have been  strong vibrant atheist societies develop outside Christianity no ? 

For me what I find surprising about the atheist debate today is the fact there is this naive idea that "atheism" is like some new concept and also that is a "positive thing". "New Atheism". Like it never occured to people before now that God might not be real and people didn't say "we can do it without God" before. This is not new. Its like ground hog day. Faith always ebbed and flowed - this generations ebb is just deeper.  But at least atheistic arguments of the past during similar "ebbs" you could see they respected the importance of the ethical teachings of religion even if they didn't believe in God. Atheists like Nietzsche didn't believe in God .....  but he found the idea that society was about to abandon God terrifying. Literally terrifying. Like he thought it would cause the collapse of the entire western civilization into Nihilism from a pure logical point of view not even accounting for the effects of God and spiritual influence people of faith take into account. He didn't believe in God and at the same time believed this idea had the potential to completely destroy civilization.  Thats a least an atheist I understand gets it. 

Dude, I've already answered why societies weren't founded on atheism.  Read back to what I've said about blasphemers and why religious oppression would have thwarted an atheist movement until recent times.

As for why the top 20 countries are Christian, there's many ways to loon at it.  You're positing an assumption that it's because of Christianity, when it could be for many other factors.

If anything, it was the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century which had the largest bearing on why western civilization gravitated to an ethos of freedom. 

The fragmentation of Christianity, specifically the Catholic Church at that time, allowed free-thinkers to spread their movement without the same level of fear over persecution as they would have had in previous times.

15 hours ago, Justanaverageguy said:

Yes I do actually - something I've pondered quite a bit as I travel. And the conclusion I've come to as I visited many countries is - by and large I thank the high heavens and have immense gratitude I was born in a Christian country. What a privileged life I was given - not beset by war or famine or poverty and having relatively stable and honest governance. Its not lost on me. I can't hand on heart saw what I would do if born into that  situation - but I can tell you like many I would probably want to move to one of the Christian based western countries. Honest answer based on comparative well being from my travels. 

Well you made it clear your not interested in being converted - but honestly I will throw in a few hail Mary's for you  People with this strong of a feeling about God and religion are often very close to a conversion without realizing  I'm predicting some spiritual magic in your future. 

So, you believe that you live a privileged life?  Great.  I think anyone born in the west, and afforded the basic opportunities that the west provides (not including those from severely disadvantaged socio-economic backgrounds), should be grateful and put their luck into perspective.

Tell me then; why does god favor some over others?  Why does god favor you over the kid born in Iraq?  Why does he allow a child to be born into a nation where a completely different (and incorrect from your perspective) religion is taught?

What do you think the uptake of Christianity is in the Middle East after those people are introduced to the idea of it?  If it's very low, which it is, doesn't this tell you something?  It certainly tells me that god favors one group over another.  It tells me that god sets up a whole race of people to failure.

Islamic people are just as certain that their god and religion is correct as you are of yours.  So certain, in fact, that martyrdom is prevalent throughout radicalized adherents that they'll literally kill themselves to kill infidels in the name of their god.

The point here is merely to demonstrate that you will never convert these people, just as they'll never convert you to their belief system.  However, both believe that the other will go to hell, as both believe that the other has rejected god.

So, once again, I ask; how does the Christian god reconcile this extraordinary disadvantage bestowed upon adherents to the "incorrect" religion who are much later introduced to a religion which runs contrary to what they've been indoctrinated with from a very young age? 

Given that the likelihood of adopting a religion which runs counter to the beliefs in the religion they've had since birth is so low, god is setting those people up for failure.  There's no two-ways about it. 

Blaming them for not following Christianity after they're introduced to it much later in life demonstrates a marked lack of understanding about brain function and the damage indoctrination can do to young, undeveloped minds.

If your god doesn't factor this into the equation on judgement day then what sort of a god is that?  The conclusion I draw is that he is anything but a loving, just and merciful god.  That's a god who's sadistic - who sets people up for failure then punishes them when they inevitably do fail.

 

[Trail Blazer]

9 hours ago, Allupinnit said:

OP are you genuinely interested in the answer or just trying to argue the point of what you already believe - that religions spring up out of cultures?

I learned long ago that God doesn't need me to argue on His behalf to "convince" others.  It's a heart issue.  Nobody "thinks" their way into a faith.  That's not what faith IS.

I'm genuinely interested in the answers that others feel are correct.  However, I'm also genuinely interested in why people would elect to stop using their brain if it's the only way for a narrative to fit.  It makes no sense to me.

 

[Ellener]

16 hours ago, Justanaverageguy said:

Faith always ebbed and flowed - this generations ebb is just deeper. 

One thing I have noticed, a lot of people say they 'believe' stuff but they don't necessarily live that way. Which seems a bit pointless to me. Religion should be a discipline if nothing else.

[Emilie Jolie]

12 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

I'm genuinely interested in the answers that others feel are correct.  However, I'm also genuinely interested in why people would elect to stop using their brain if it's the only way for a narrative to fit.  It makes no sense to me.

 

If, as you say, you are genuinely interested, you might want to think about reframing your question in a more inviting way. If your premise is that people with faith have stopped 'using their brain', why would they want to share their experience with you?

Isn't it enough that they don't force their beliefs down your throat? Faith is a personal, intimate journey; it's not a logic thing.

[Curious-Sam]

1 hour ago, Trail Blazer said:

Blaming them for not following Christianity after they're introduced to it much later in life demonstrates a marked lack of understanding about brain function and the damage indoctrination can do to young, undeveloped minds.

If your god doesn't factor this into the equation on judgement day then what sort of a god is that?  The conclusion I draw is that he is anything but a loving, just and merciful god.  That's a god who's sadistic - who sets people up for failure then punishes them when they inevitably do fail.

 

So by this you haven't listened or taken in what I've written in other posts - even though I know you read them (or at least a line or two out of them because you quoted and responded to them.)

I made it very clear what Christianity teaches on this matter. That people will be judged according to their level of understanding. I posted 2 seperate comments specifically addressing this but you keep coming back and making the exact same "straw man" argument l've already answered twice. Your pushing your own preconceived understanding about the Christian teaching and Gods judgement - rather then what it actually says.

Please take the time to read the comments I already made above along with the direct scriptural references about how the Jesus taught God would judge people. Based on their level of understanding. Based on how much they were exposed to and had the chance to learn the true teaching. The teaching specifically says in multiple places that those who never receive the teaching - their wrong actions will be punished lightly and the atonement for their sin will be made by God / Jesus. This is what I pointed out when I said the real ones to be concerned about are Christans who abandon the faith an act against the teaching. Because they don't receive the same leniency in judgement. 

The one who has been given much much will be demanded. To repeat.

Conversely the one who has been given less - less will be demanded.

1 hour ago, Trail Blazer said:

Islamic people are just as certain that their god and religion is correct as you are of yours.  So certain, in fact, that martyrdom is prevalent throughout radicalized adherents that they'll literally kill themselves to kill infidels in the name of their god.

Here your kind of making my point for me regarding which is the true and most beneficial teaching. I honestly don't know that much about Islamic teaching - but I gather it includes the concept of Jihad and killing anyone who opposes the religion. Their martyrdom is to kill themselves to kill others.

Christianity teaches to love your enemy. Now I'm not saying Christians are perfect and always have done that. Clearly they have not. They went against the teaching and did plenty of evil things in the past. But the point is they went against the teaching.  The teaching encourages people to turn the other cheek to pray for your enemy to repent so that they may avoid judgement. Christian matrydom is the polar opposite of Islamic matrydom. It is giving your life not to takes others lives .... But to save others lives. This is the highest form of sacrifice in Christianity which Jesus represents. 

I hope you can see the difference here - one one is considered "better" then the other. One teaching is directed towards the "highest good". That's what god is.

1 hour ago, Trail Blazer said:

So, you believe that you live a privileged life?  Great.  I think anyone born in the west, and afforded the basic opportunities that the west provides (not including those from severely disadvantaged socio-economic backgrounds), should be grateful and put their luck into perspective.

Tell me then; why does god favor some over others?  Why does god favor you over the kid born in Iraq?  Why does he allow a child to be born into a nation where a completely different (and incorrect from your perspective) religion is taught?

God favours those who follow his will. That's why he wants to spread the teaching to as many people as possible. So they can follow it - do good and be blessed. It's really that simple. This is why Christians were instructed to go an make disciples of all the nations. Because huge benefits comes from receiving the true teaching and following it. Those who are closest to doing what he asks - get the most blessings. So if the Christian teaching spreads into a community and they begin to follow it. Then they will be blessed. It's that simple. God is like the wind. He doesn't change direction. People do. And your either running with the wind at your back ... Or the wind into your face. And whilst I said above he adjusts the severity of his judgement - the strength of the wind - based on your understanding - if your going against it you still can't be blessed in this life. The light judgements on those who don't have the teaching are designed to change their behaviours. To start to change their direction and push them in the right direction. You are meant to look around and go. Wait why are we not being blessed ? Why are those people over their being favoured so much ? What are they doing that we arent? Your meant to see your neighbours garden is thriving and ask what are you doing differently? Judge a tee by the fruit it bares.

This is why Christian society's are more blessed, favoured and prosperous. They are closer to following Gods will then the other societies are. If those societies changed and began following Gods teaching .... they would also be blessed. If the Christian societies stop following the teachings - their blessings will dry up. It cuts both ways.

Like I said. How long does it take a plants leaves to wilt when it stops receiving rain ? 

How do you think Islamic people should be converted if they say they don't want the teaching ? Should we forcibly concert them ? Should we invade and indoctrinate all of them by force. At the end of the day we have advantages and disadvantages in our upbringing but the individuals still have the ability to look at the "fruit" each religion has born and make a choice.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Curious-Sam

[basil67]

@Trail Blazer as a fellow athiest, I'm completely unable to fathom why you have a need to pick apart the personal beliefs of others.    It's the antithesis of how I taught my children to respect difference of faith and to accept only respect in return.

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by basil67