Why do you believe that 'your' God is the correct one?

[Trail Blazer]

53 minutes ago, basil67 said:

It's no longer theoretical.  If we're talking mainstream religions, the world has a number of countries which are majority irreligious.  

Czechs report as 72% 

Estonia - 59.2%

Netherlands 53%

United Kingdom 52%

New Zealand is high 40's and increasing rapidly

I will concede that different sources show different figures and don't want to get into a 'source war' with you.   But I think we can agree that there are a few countries who now tip the scales.  The census details for many countries show ongoing, substantial increases in those who report 'no religion' in census data, my own country Australia included.   And I would argue that these countries who have a majority irreligious people are functioning perfectly well.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/02/once-the-same-nation-the-czech-republic-and-slovakia-look-very-different-religiously/#:~:text=Around half that many (21,more religiously observant than Czechs.

https://www.thearda.com/internationalData/countries/Country_77_5.asp

https://www.statista.com/statistics/527782/population-of-the-netherlands-by-religion/

https://www.stats.govt.nz/news/losing-our-religion#:~:text=In the 2018 Census%2C 2%2C264%2C601,29.6 in the 2001 Census.

https://www.natcen.ac.uk/news-media/press-releases/2019/july/a-britain-that-is-losing-its-religion,-has-faith-in-science-and-is-adopting-more-liberal-ideas-about-sex-and-relationships/

All the Nordic countries inc. Iceland are majority irreligious.  In fact, most of Europe is.  Oh, and I've spent a lot of time in the U.K. and Ireland, as well as Australia.  The religious culture is very different in those countries than the United States.

Hell, even Ireland (where I've spent a combined six-months living), where devout Catholicism has been a hallmark for centuries, is dying a swift death.  People over there have seemingly lost faith (pun intended) in the Catholic Church.

Pedophilia, rife amongst the Catholic Church, as well as institutional abuse of unmarried mothers has played a huge part in dismantling Ireland's religious identity.  The fact that Ireland was the first country in the world to legalize gay marriage by popular vote, has surely allayed any doubt about what is happening over there! 

For that, I say, hallelujah!

[basil67]

1 hour ago, Justanaverageguy said:

 They didn't follow the teaching. You have the teaching it's still very possible to fail or make mistakes

But even the most modern Bible doesn't reflect modern views.  Not to mention, it's at the mercy of whoever translates it at the time. 

Now, I'm up with the whole 'thou shall not lie or steal or covet thy neighbour's wife' thing.  But as both a feminist and progressive, there are so much traditional religious teachings that I abhor.  And when I say abhor, I mean actively fight and protest against.   That said, I have a friend who's husband is pastor of a progressive church. I've said to myself that if I could believe in God, I would be part of their fold.

The problem with arguing for Christianity as a guide is that there are so many different views.....which you also acknowledge.... but which view is right?   They all believe they are right and we have no referee to sort it out.   Are we to be stuck living as we were 2K years ago or have we progressed and are more understanding of diversity?   Do we accept difference or do we reject it?   

Given the disaster of all the different religious teachings, I'd rather live without god and stick to my personal moral guidelines.

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by basil67
grammar

[Justanaverageguy]

 

6 hours ago, basil67 said:

But even the most modern Bible doesn't reflect modern views.  Not to mention, it's at the mercy of whoever translates it at the time. 

Now, I'm up with the whole 'thou shall not lie or steal or covet thy neighbour's wife' thing.  But as both a feminist and progressive, there are so much traditional religious teachings that I abhor.  And when I say abhor, I mean actively fight and protest against.   That said, I have a friend who's husband is pastor of a progressive church. I've said to myself that if I could believe in God, I would be part of their fold.

The problem with arguing for Christianity as a guide is that there are so many different views.....which you also acknowledge.... but which view is right?   They all believe they are right and we have no referee to sort it out.   Are we to be stuck living as we were 2K years ago or have we progressed and are more understanding of diversity?   Do we accept difference or do we reject it?   

Sure I agree with you on many of these. In fact I think a large part of the reason for the rise of atheism - is the church hasn't stayed "relevant". People became disillusioned with the institutions - not the teaching itself. The whole time through societies evolution the Christian spiritual teaching - the Gospel - has remained the same. Love others. Do good to those around you. Help those less fortunate. Strive for a connection with God who is a source of "higher power" then yourself who can heal and rejuvinante. But while the teaching and this connection was helping to push the societies forward to strive for the higher ethics - and providing healing and cleansing - it was also still rooted in and run by people from within that same society. Its like a feedback loop back into itself and so there was clearly many blind spots and preduces within the people themselves - that took a long time to progressively remove. There is undoubtably still outdated things - which don't line up with the teaching in some churches and our society.

The stuff you say about womens rights. I would be right there beside you championing the same things. The core teaching is - Love your neighbour as yourself. As you would have others do to you - do ye even so to them. It fits with this ethic. Same as treatment of outsiders, foreigners etc. The teaching itself always advocated for them and pushed people towards charity and good will towards them. In the bible the key people it focuses on are the disadvantaged. But society takes time to adjust. Racism and even slavery was still present in many Christian societies for a long time. But progressively over time with this feedback loop - we progressively became more and more into alignment with the teaching and these issues and flaws gradually dissipated and we evolved past them and this then allowed for us to be "blessed more". 

My concern is the Christian ethic our societies were founded on was like an anchor. Yes different groups argued about interpretations - but the core message was the same. It was a common and shared grounding point to come back to. I don't think removing the shared ethic will decrease arguments between groups - rather the opposite. You just replace "religion" - with "ideology". Human's can be flawed and get off track and sometimes even do horrible things regardless of the teaching. But we could always come back to this ethic - and this connection to the higher power when we made mistakes. Atheism doesn't offer that.  Not the common shared higher ethic - but especially not the "higher power" side of it which I know you don't believe in - but the healing that's available through that - its powerful.

My hope is that the current situation we will see a radical revolution within our societies - where rather then a radical move towards atheism and complete abandonment of God - we are going to see the birth of more profound and relevant spiritual movement that re-engages people and is relevant, beneficial and healing to their lives.  

Edited December 12, 2020 by Justanaverageguy

[Allupinnit]

OP what was the purpose of this thread?  To tell people of faith we are delusional and have to shut off our brains in order to have faith?

I just don't get the sense that you were really interested in what we have to say aside from trying to make us feel stupid.  And with that I guess I'd examine your own heart.  I don't go around telling atheists they're going to hell, I don't believe God expects me to have zero questions, and I don't think Earth is 6,000 years old.

So I just have to wonder why atheists try so hard to make THEIR point, when seemingly asking a curious question about our faith?  I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by Allupinnit

[Ellener]

10 hours ago, Justanaverageguy said:

Normally it's pretty straight forward. They didn't follow the teaching.

Which teaching? There are usually lots of interpretations and divisions within any religion. And always have been.

14 hours ago, Justanaverageguy said:

It's not those who hear the word who will be blessed - but those who do it.

Well just by this thread alone some people believe in war, some in peace...etc. 

10 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

Being a good person comes a distant second to believing in god.  

That statement can be read two ways!

 

[Ellener]

40 minutes ago, Allupinnit said:

I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  

You're not maybe but proselytism is very common.

In the city of Cordoba 10th century a unified Muslim state was established by Abd al-Rahman III following certain rules, Jews and Christians could practice their religions freely if they accepted Islam, but not build any more temples or religions or undertake proselytism. A period of peace and prosperity followed. Until it ended.

People accepted it so long as their lives felt significantly better. Economics and practicality play a huge part- people need to survive. There's an element of this throughout religious history ( which is too compex to break down the entirity but* ) Until someone decides everyone needs to believe the same or someone decides to 'defend' what they believe is certain and important at all costs or to take what someone else currently possesses. 

*Mankind: The History of All of Us https://www.history.com/shows/mankind-the-story-of-all-of-us is a well made 12 hour series going from early man and basic economics and evolving belief systems through to modern times. 

 

[Trail Blazer]

4 hours ago, Ellener said:

That statement can be read two ways!

 

It can?  It was only intended to be read one-way...

[Allupinnit]

4 hours ago, Ellener said:

You're not maybe but proselytism is very common.

In the city of Cordoba 10th century a unified Muslim state was established by Abd al-Rahman III following certain rules, Jews and Christians could practice their religions freely if they accepted Islam, but not build any more temples or religions or undertake proselytism. A period of peace and prosperity followed. Until it ended.

People accepted it so long as their lives felt significantly better. Economics and practicality play a huge part- people need to survive. There's an element of this throughout religious history ( which is too compex to break down the entirity but* ) Until someone decides everyone needs to believe the same or someone decides to 'defend' what they believe is certain and important at all costs or to take what someone else currently possesses. 

*Mankind: The History of All of Us https://www.history.com/shows/mankind-the-story-of-all-of-us is a well made 12 hour series going from early man and basic economics and evolving belief systems through to modern times. 

 

Again, this is the nature of man and not of God Himself.  I think it's beyond atrocious that people have misrepresented God in an attempt to advance their own selfish desires.  Jesus was not about that.  

This is nothing new.  The world before Jesus was certainly no better off than we are now.  Jesus was the original human rights advocate.

[Ellener]

20 minutes ago, Allupinnit said:

Jesus was the original human rights advocate.

The words of Jesus were. The words of the followers who have sprung up in the name of Christ...not so much!

In Matthew 25, the people who Jesus said were to be helped, people do tend to go either way after those experiences ( prisoner, hungry, naked, desolate etc ) though, either develop empathy or reject it.  Luke 12 talks about peace and not storing up wealth, but some people enjoy war and most people enjoy comfort.

Maybe this is my lesson in 2021's hardships and change- how will you come out of it, who will you be? Consider the lillies...

 

[Emilie Jolie]

5 hours ago, Ellener said:

Economics and practicality play a huge part-

I think that's true. Religious extremism often goes hand in hand with economic hardship, a dictature-style type of government or a power void (like after a military coup or an 'international intervention'.)

In times of peace, cooperation, tolerance and shared economic wealth, religion goes back to being an individual, personal choice.

 

[Allupinnit]

3 minutes ago, Ellener said:

The words of Jesus were. The words of the followers who have sprung up in the name of Christ...not so much!

In Matthew 25, the people who Jesus said were to be helped, people do tend to go either way after those experiences ( prisoner, hungry, naked, desolate etc ) though, either develop empathy or reject it.  Luke 12 talks about peace and not storing up wealth, but some people enjoy war and most people enjoy comfort.

Maybe this is my lesson in 2021's hardships and change- how will you come out of it, who will you be? Consider the lillies...

 

It's easy to look back and see where imperfect man has gotten wrong the perfect message of the only perfect human who ever lived, wrong.

But there has been so MUCH good done in His name as well.  There are so many times I've reached out to Him or sought His guidance in a way that goes against my human nature, and the outcomes have been nothing short of miraculous and I see where if I had done what I "felt" at the time, could have been ruinous.  I've learned how to love difficult people, because He loved me first.  I've heard solid financial advice that has made me both generous and kept me out of debt.  I've healed relationships in my family.  I have been able to forgive those who have hurt me.  He saved me, and the love and peace I feel is nothing like I had before when I was doing things how I saw fit.  It doesn't make sense, and I can't explain it away.  It's a beautiful dance, a mystery.

Christianity has also divinely inspired the priceless works of art in Italy, music, architecture, Harvard, Oxford, countless charities worldwide, philosophy, Christmas, the first American settlers, I could go on.  

 

 

 

 

[Ellener]

1 minute ago, Allupinnit said:

Christianity has also divinely inspired the priceless works of art in Italy, music, architecture, Harvard, Oxford, countless charities worldwide, philosophy, Christmas, the first American settlers, I could go on.  

I often do ( go on Imean! )

So many of those divinely inspired things you mention were off-balance for centuries if it's human rights we are considering.

[Trail Blazer]

5 hours ago, Allupinnit said:

OP what was the purpose of this thread?  To tell people of faith we are delusional and have to shut off our brains in order to have faith?

I just don't get the sense that you were really interested in what we have to say aside from trying to make us feel stupid.  And with that I guess I'd examine your own heart.  I don't go around telling atheists they're going to hell, I don't believe God expects me to have zero questions, and I don't think Earth is 6,000 years old.

So I just have to wonder why atheists try so hard to make THEIR point, when seemingly asking a curious question about our faith?  I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  

 

The point of this thread was to re-visit my curiosity about why different religions are so prevalent to certain individuals in different geographical regions.

I grew up having a Muslim father and a Catholic mother.  Their marriage didn't last, but their core religious beliefs were bestowed upon me. 

I spent the majority of time growing up living with mom in Idaho, however, I'd spend summer break in California with dad.  He re-married, to a woman of his faith and had more children.

Whilst growing up with mom, she sent me to a Catholic school in Boise.  When I spent time with Dad and his family, I'd partake in many of the Islamic activities which they did.  It gave me an interesting perspective, having read the Bible and the Quran.

What started to bother me as I grew older was that it dawned on me that I had to pick one religion or the other.  As a young, innocent child I could do both.  When it came to deciding, I couldn't pick.

I felt the pressure of having to pick one, with both sides effectively saying that if I chose the other one I'd go to hell.  So, I started to examine why people choose one over the other.  It became apparent to me pretty quickly....

I have three younger siblings, all adherents to the Islamic faith, owing to their upbringing.  Why did they find it so easy to choose a faith?  Well, of course, that's the only belief system they had exposure to.  They were indoctrinated!

I challenged both sides of the fence, to the point where my father organized a meeting with the sheikh at his local mosque so I could discuss these matters with him.  I was 14. 

I told the sheikh that I find it hard to reconcile with a loving and merciful God when I am told that it doesn't matter how good a person one is, they'll still go to hell just for not believing.  I asked him to confirm that unless I choose Islam, according to the Quran, am I going to hell?

The sheikh told me that he understood my concern.  He told me that Allah would be proud of me for having a desire to be a good person.  He also said, and I'm paraphrasing here as this was 22 years ago;

"No man, not even I as a sheikh, can attempt to discern just how Allah will ultimately judge another man on his day of judgement.  However, the Qur'an very clearly states that any man who turns his back on Allah after accessing and understanding his teachings from a reliable source will be questioned for this."

So, my take on this is that I've had equal and reliable exposure to both religions.  I am now expected to pick one?  I have a 50/50 chance of being right or wrong... if only two religions existed!  However, over four-thousand religions exist! 

What if none of the monotheistic religions are correct, and in fact the Incan religion, practised up until the 1,500s was the correct one?  We all know that history is written by the victors, so those pesky Spaniards who conquered that region of South America 500 years ago could have written out of history the one true religion of god/s.

However, I digresss...

As I delved further into both Christian and Islamic belief systems, neither of them made sense from a logical point of view.  Idle threats of eternal damnation aside, neither provided me with the mental stimulation with regards to many of the burning questions I had about the world and our existence.  Only science could.

When you observe proponents of both religions, you see uncanny similarities between both.  That is, to look past what they actually believe in and examine why they believe it.  It all starts making sense.

So, to reiterate; I guess in that I've just re-visited some areas of my life which were a big part of my upbringing.  In this crazy year that is 2020, not having seen family and friends for extended periods of time, being stuck inside the house going a little stir crazy... one's brain starts wondering.

I'm sorry that you find it offensive, but it is a fact that you don't arrive at faith by logic and reason.  You have to want to believe it first.  You have faith and you don't question the information. 

You look for reasons to bolster your faith.  You look for patterns on the world that align with your views.  This is what conformation bias is and it's exactly what I don't want to have.  Confirmation bias is a roadblock to objectivity and ultimately the progression of society.

 

[Ellener]

2 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

What started to bother me as I grew older was that it dawned on me that I had to pick one religion or the other.  As a young, innocent child I could do both.  When it came to deciding, I couldn't pick.

You don't have to because of the freedoms/rights that we have in America to attend one, both, or neither. 

 

[Allupinnit]

I don't think anyone who is adhering to a faith out of fear of damnation makes a good convert.  In fact the Bible says it's his LOVE that leads us to repentance.  God is  gentleman and doesn't force Himself.

I don't know what hell is, I think the Bible is metaphorical in many aspects.  The Jews of the Old Testament learned through telling stories and I think it's important to interpret it through the eyes of a First Century Jew and not those of an American living in 2020 with a completely different perspective and bias.  

[Emilie Jolie]

@Trail Blazer, sounds like you have come full circle in your self-reflective journey - which is pretty cool in itself. You're in the 'logic' camp, which is fine. Others are in other camps, which is also fine. Believers, skeptics, non-believers, and everything in between - we all are on our path. When a person acts with good intentions, the religious background is just one piece of the jigsaw of what makes us.

As an aside, I've learned plenty of things on that thread - thank you!

[Trail Blazer]

34 minutes ago, Ellener said:

You don't have to because of the freedoms/rights that we have in America to attend one, both, or neither. 

 

I had to for my own reasons.  Nobody told me I had to, but I had to because, to me, faith isn't something you do by halves.  You either buy what's espoused, or you don't.

For a brief period I believed there was a God and I just had to figure out which God was the correct one.  It came down to the Christian God, or Allah.

Alas, my journey of religious discovery came to an abrupt end when I felt myself having to remove logical thought processes in order to make either religion's narratives fit.

[major_merrick]

6 hours ago, Ellener said:

In the city of Cordoba 10th century a unified Muslim state was established by Abd al-Rahman III following certain rules, Jews and Christians could practice their religions freely if they accepted Islam, but not build any more temples or religions or undertake proselytism. A period of peace and prosperity followed. Until it ended.

Overly simplified.  It doesn't seem that in the time of "peace and prosperity" that Jews and Christians were on equal footing with Muslims.  Tolerated, but second-class citizens for sure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Convivencia

[Ellener]

8 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

I just had to figure out which God was the correct one. 

There's only one God no matter what we call it...the spirit of the universe, love, nature, Jesus, Allah: it is all the same thing we experience differently but yet the same through our self, our culture, our era.

[major_merrick]

3 minutes ago, Ellener said:

There's only one God no matter what we call it...the spirit of the universe, love, nature, Jesus, Allah: it is all the same thing we experience differently but yet the same through our self, our culture, our era.

I have to disagree with that statement.  I believe there is only one God, only one way to God, and the other things people address as "god" are deceptive or demonic. 

I think it has become popular in the modern USA to say things like this, or to say that there are many paths to God.  It sounds liberal, it sounds accepting and feels good.  But there are many Christians who continue to believe in the narrow way, for example your conservative Lutherans, Baptists, Pentecostals, etc...  We're talking large denominations, not just smaller groups  like mine. 

[basil67]

32 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

I had to for my own reasons.  Nobody told me I had to, but I had to because, to me, faith isn't something you do by halves.  You either buy what's espoused, or you don't.

For a brief period I believed there was a God and I just had to figure out which God was the correct one.  It came down to the Christian God, or Allah.

Given that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all share the same roots, wouldn't that mean that God and Allah are the same person by different names?  

Edited December 13, 2020 by basil67

[Ellener]

3 hours ago, major_merrick said:

I believe there is only one God, only one way to God, and the other things people address as "god" are deceptive or demonic. 

'I believe'...

3 hours ago, basil67 said:

Given that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all share the same roots, wouldn't that mean that God and Allah are the same person by different names?  

I believe so. 

3 hours ago, major_merrick said:

I think it has become popular in the modern USA to say things like this, or to say that there are many paths to God.

It really hasn't but people aren't going to give up 'I believe' and in a multi-cultural economic society people have to find ways to live alongside.

[Justanaverageguy]

3 hours ago, basil67 said:

Given that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all share the same roots, wouldn't that mean that God and Allah are the same person by different names?  

All 3 religions have the same patriarch and consider themselves to point to the same God. 

Christianity and Judaism are very closely intertwined. Essentially the entirety of Judaic scripture is a part of Christian scripture. The Tanakh - the Hebrew Bible - is identical to the old testament. They are one and the same. The difference between the two religions is simply put Jesus and the gospel. And let's not forget Jesus and all 12 disciples were all Jewish. Christians believe Jesus is the fulfillment of the entire purpose of the Tanakh and the covenant agreement made with the Patriarch Abraham in the book of Genesis. None of the stories in the old testament are different to the stories in the Tannakh. They are identical . Christians simply believe Jesus is the one spoken of in the Tannakh and prophesize all the way through the teaching. To provide a way to connect with Gods spirit, heal and redeem people, provide salvation and spread Gods teaching to the nation's. Jews don't recognise Jesus as the messianic figure prophesied about in the Tanakh but the religious belief in the same God are very aligned and much scripture is shared and align.

The Muslim religion does claim the same patriach and also claims to believe in the same God - but in terms of scripture and teaching it shares almost no content or overlap with either Judaism or Christianity. Neither the Tanakh or Christian Bible is included in Muslim teaching. They have their own seperate set of scriptures which don't overlap. There scriptures actually contain many references to the prophets and messengers of God spoken about in both Judaism and Christianity but in almost all cases the content, explanation and stories are very different to the other two religons. In fact very often the stories are "flipped".l - opposites of th original. Example the patriach Abraham had 2 sons. 1 was with a slave girl Ishmael the other with his wife named Isaac. Christians and Jews both teach the line of Judaism came through the son Isaac who was offered in "mock sacrifice" to prophesize the role of the Messiah. Muslims teach Ishmael was the chosen son whom the mock sacrifice came through and claim him as the line through which they came. So even at the first point - at the patriach Abraham there is a split. Jews and Christians recognise Isaac as their lineage - Muslims recognise Ishmael. Many other stories are like this - the Muslim version differs from that of Christianity and Judaism. They are fundamentally different. They don't really lineup or overlap.

I can understand from Trailblazers view why he would find this incredibly difficult to process and chose between. When you are raised in a house with two faiths. Both who claim to be the true faith - but who claim the same God but who's stories are often diametrically opposed. They tell the same story - differently. This is why I encouraged a simply process to judge the truthfullness. Look at the fruit.

One thing though the name of God 'Allah' is believed to simply be an arrabized form of a Hebrew expression for the name of God.

In Hebrew the generic word for God is "El" 

The actual specific name given to God was Jahweh / Jahova which was shortened to simply "Jah" when being used in names.

Most western names are actual a Romanized English form of a Hebrew statement relating to the judo/Christian God. So they sound similar but have been changed for Romanized English pronunciation. If youre a westerner their is a high probability your name is a statement which is dedicated to or honours the Judo/Christian God.

Micha'el = Who is like God

Gabri'el = The power of God

Joshua (English)/Jahshua (Hebrew) (Jesus  real name) which means Jahweh saves

Jo'el = Jahweh is God

ElJah/ Elijah= God is Jahweh.

I've read this last name / statement (also used by the Judo/Christian prohet) is where Allah comes from. That it is simply an arrabized version of El'Jah meaning God is Jahweh. Similar to Joshua (English) / Jahshua (Hebrew)

El'Jah (Hebrew)  = Allah (Arabic)

Edited December 13, 2020 by Justanaverageguy

[Ellener]

3 hours ago, major_merrick said:

But there are many Christians who continue to believe in the narrow way, for example your conservative Lutherans, Baptists, Pentecostals, etc...  We're talking large denominations, not just smaller groups  like mine. 

I think you know I believe in a freedom so everyone can live with the same freedoms ( and obligations ) I have. But I don't think most of these denominations would accept the way you and your family and community life as what 'they believe' in.

People sometimes have to stretch their minds beyond what they think they believe, or their own experience. All of us.

To know 'it must be true else I wouldn't believe it' does not make complete sense. 

To listen to someone else's experiences and beliefs as equally valid to their own.

[Emilie Jolie]

 

41 minutes ago, Ellener said:

People sometimes have to stretch their minds beyond what they think they believe, or their own experience. All of us.

Raises hands.

I spent the majority of my formative years in a deeply secular, non-denominational country with remnants of Catholicism, where your faith is your business, to be kept behind closed doors mostly.

Where I live now (UK) is slightly more openly religious, but not enough that people of any faith would feel alienated. 

As a European, I've always found it perplexing however how freedom of religion has been interpreted so literally in some parts of the US, which so many branches of the Christian faith operating almost independently from any mainstream, conventional religious beliefs. I've always wondered how people would arrive at this set of beliefs.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Emilie Jolie