Can this work

[Trail Blazer]

2 minutes ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said:

I’m not completely sure, but I’ve heard a lot of men say the same thing.  I think with a lot of people, even if they can talk to people with ease, they act a bit different with people they are into. I think it is just that being around someone you are very attracted to you can have a emotional and physiological affect on you that can make interacting with them more difficult. There is more on the line and a little bit more thinking into things. I’ve seen this with friends too. I can tell very easily whether or not she’s just talking with a man as a friend or if she is into a guy. It’s not just about the flirty banter,  there are S*** tests and walls put up and a lot of the time. If you are very confident and levelheaded, I suppose that it has less of an impact. But a lot of people are not 100% confident especially around people that they are attracted to.

but yes, that she ended up dating the guy who she seemed not to enjoy the conversation with leads me to believe that there were things in play that made it seem like she didn’t rather than she just didn’t like it.

I'm sure many guys have turned into bumbling messes when they're trying to talk to a girl they like.  Admittedly I was like this when I was younger.  I became a lot more confident as I got older.

These days, the way I see it, as a guy it's my right to take the lead when interacting with someone I'm keen on.  I guess the focus is on what I can control and I'm pretty confident in my ability to articulate my message.

My thinking may be flawed, but the way I see it, generally women are not dominant or assertive, so they have less control of the outcome they want.  It can be nerve-wracking hoping someone likes you but feeling like you have very little control of the situation.

[elaine567]

2 hours ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said:

Honestly, it was probably that she had a better conversation with the Chad guy but she was just being polite and conversing with you as well.

Agreed, women can have conversations with "the friend" when their real focus is on the main guy, the guy they are really interested in. They are conversing with "the friend" in order to stay close to the guy they want.
"The friend" is then unceremoniously binned as soon as the  main guy shows any interest, or if he is not interested, "the friend" still gets binned as he was never considered by her to be in the running...

[Miss Spider]

11 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

They are conversing with "the friend" in order to stay close to the guy they want.

Done this plenty of times, NGL

Edited January 27, 2021 by Shortskirtslonglashes

[ZA Dater]

The very few occasions I spent chatting to people I like, I just found the conversation far easier, it flowed better and was just more engaging. The fundamental problem I have is I have no real way of showing interest and I have no way of detecting interest either so its like walking around in the dark so to speak. Sure I can read and read and I have done that but no two people are the same so the advice is naturally very prescriptive. 

Perhaps I need to explain why she appeals, very grounded, down to earth has been dealt a very hard life in some way but keeps going, keeps smiling and keeps positive. Her baby is her life and I can really appreciate people who make their life about something, be it a career, a hobby or anything really but I rarely meet people like that, most of the people I meet lurch between one trance party to another, have beliefs that I frankly do not agree with or I can clearly see they are just out to use people for their own benefit. 

I will try once again something for valentines but I will be certain to not try overplay my hand too much. Again all i can really sell are the good parts of my personality and the fact I don't party and play around and I am motivated to succeed. Its a tough sell and based on the comment here trying to sell that will almost certainly lead to a loss.

Sure I agree its important to be attractive if you actually know how to be that but again how to actually measure that. The other problem for me is a lack of opportunity and a lack of people I find attractive.

I get it, work, work, work but really when does one expect results to arrive? 

[trident_2020]

16 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The fundamental problem I have is I have no real way of showing interest and I have no way of detecting interest either so its like walking around in the dark so to speak.

Classic Aspergers. You can't understand and respond to social cues.

It's not your fault.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=aspergers+social+cues

[Miss Spider]

Xxxxxx

Edited January 27, 2021 by Shortskirtslonglashes

[ZA Dater]

41 minutes ago, trident_2020 said:

Classic Aspergers. You can't understand and respond to social cues.

It's not your fault.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=aspergers+social+cues

Not really because I am very good at reading people at business meetings. Its very easy for me to ascertain interest in an idea/transaction by looking closely at body language and what is not being said. Sure if she winks at me that is interest, playing with her hair can be interest, open body language could be interest.

I just do not think I have very high value on the dating ladder and that's been clearly pointed out to me so I guess I will have to raise that value somehow. 

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

 

I just do not think I have very high value on the dating ladder and that's been clearly pointed out to me so I guess I will have to raise that value somehow. 

Either raise your value, or date women on your level. What are you going to do that raises your value, but doesn’t change who you are as a person?

[ZA Dater]

9 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Either raise your value, or date women on your level. What are you going to do that raises your value, but doesn’t change who you are as a person?

I cant make people find me attractive, I have tried this before many times. Irrespective which approach I take the results do not really change. Surprisingly I do look around and see who is successful at dating and what they bring to the table I do not. Fundamentally though I am just not that sort of person, its like asking a leopard to change it spots. Yes, I can compromise to some extent but I am never going to be that charming outgoing guy.

Yes, I can try be more outgoing, more confident, more relaxed, less serious, all those things I do try to do. Then again I go on Tinder and absolutely nobody I find attractive matches with me, in fact that total oppose is true. I even showed a friend of mind this and he amazed how using boost I landed up with those matches, to his credit he admitted he would not go out with them either. 

Ultimately like most of life dating seems to be a competition of sorts, either compete to try and win or do not compete and never win. 

[ZA Dater]

16 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Agreed, women can have conversations with "the friend" when their real focus is on the main guy, the guy they are really interested in. They are conversing with "the friend" in order to stay close to the guy they want.
"The friend" is then unceremoniously binned as soon as the  main guy shows any interest, or if he is not interested, "the friend" still gets binned as he was never considered by her to be in the running...

Hence why its best to remove all emotion from these sorts of situations and treat them like office meetings. I had a good chat with her but I knew she was never going to be interested in me, deep down I know the value I have and yeah most of the time I am fighting out of my weight division because when I look at what would be easier to get I just cannot summon up any enthusiasm or attraction for those people, absolutely none at all. 

[Weezy1973]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Ultimately like most of life dating seems to be a competition of sorts, either compete to try and win or do not compete and never win. 

So which of these options are you choosing? 

[Miss Spider]

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Hence why its best to remove all emotion from these sorts of situations and treat them like office meetings. I had a good chat with her but I knew she was never going to be interested in me, deep down I know the value I have and yeah most of the time I am fighting out of my weight division because when I look at what would be easier to get I just cannot summon up any enthusiasm or attraction for those people, absolutely none at all. 

You can’t summon any enthusiasm for people you aren’t attracted to and neither can she. Point blank periodt. What else is there to say. You want people you find attractive and so does she.  If you want to look at it as a competition, I guess you can. You can twist pretty much anything in life that way if you want. If your favorite restaurant is open and you have the $ and they’ll deliver right to your door, of course you will get that instead settling for toast .  So of course Stacy is going to go for Chad and we can’t blame her. You have basically described yourself as a human equivalent of white bread and said I like who I am and comfortable here and have no desire to change. But you aren’t comfortable there at all. You do want a girl despite trying to convince yourself you don’t need it, or you wouldn’t be asking these  all Q’s. You also game yourself by saying that you are not going to keep trying because of your so headstrong and honest. Nah. You’re not changing because it’s hard and you might fail and failure sucks.  It’s easy to sit and complain about how unfair the world is and how nothing works in your favor. Changing and improving yourself and picking up and trying again after failure is what is difficult. It’s literally the only thing that will get anywhere near the result you want. And people can see that and they want you to succeed that is why they have put in so much effort to try to help you despite yourself 

Edited January 28, 2021 by Shortskirtslonglashes

[Miss Spider]

You’re* sry voice to text 

Edited January 28, 2021 by Shortskirtslonglashes

[Weezy1973]

57 minutes ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said:

You also game yourself by saying that you are not going to keep trying because of your so headstrong and honest. Nah. You’re not changing because it’s hard and you might fail and failure sucks. 

Bam.

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

So which of these options are you choosing? 

I like competing.  Just not sure I have any skills that are of any particular use at this game. Neither of the choices is an easy one but giving up is the harder one. Tell me this, how do you ignore the fact you do not have the skills, please done say fake it, for me everything is about risk and odds. I am not going to put my foot out if there is too much risk and not enough potential upside.

Again today I sat at a lunch with two guys and again had to suffer through "oh bro you took her home, what did yo do, was it good", "what did you say to her to get her home". Not once did I hear, well she has an interesting story, not once did I hear anything about her as a person. Am I wrong the way I look at this, should too be doing things like this? Sure, she obviously had a good time but a part of me just cannot contemplate doing this, even if I had the confidence and charm. 

I am not an overly emotional person and I grew up with very little affection so I guess those two things do not really help when it comes to dating. Make no mistake I do often think about what I can do better but there needs to be some potential of it actually working, too often I went on dates and the whole thing just never worked, no connection at all and even when the conversation was at least good nothing came of it, I ask often what more I could have done.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said:

 You also game yourself by saying that you are not going to keep trying because of your so headstrong and honest. Nah. You’re not changing because it’s hard and you might fail and failure sucks.  

I weigh up the odds of success, someone who is into players will never be into me so why should I bother with her? Likewise I am not into poorly spoken people so while I might find success there it wont actually be any success because I never found her attractive to begin with. Its a game of risk and odds, I have failed enough at many things so I know the taste of it quite well. 

Where I am still uncertain if if a friendship offers more to me than dating. I cannot answer that question and its one of the reasons I keep going, I'd love to be able to say "ok I do not want that, lets just focus on this, do this really well and forget about that".

[Weezy1973]

23 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Tell me this, how do you ignore the fact you do not have the skills, please done say fake it, for me everything is about risk and odds. I am not going to put my foot out if there is too much risk and not enough potential upside.

1. Skills can be developed, but you have to work at it. Our brains are like a muscle.

2. There is no risk to asking a woman out on a date. Rejection only stings because you think it’s a reflection on you. It’s not. There’s nothing wrong with those women on Tinder that are attracted to you right? You’re just not attracted to them. It’s not personal. 

3. All the rejection you’ve had in the past isn’t happening anymore. Let it go.

27 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Again today I sat at a lunch with two guys and again had to suffer through "oh bro you took her home, what did yo do, was it good", "what did you say to her to get her home". Not once did I hear, well she has an interesting story, not once did I hear anything about her as a person. Am I wrong the way I look at this, should too be doing things like this?

Why are you hanging out with guys like this? For a quiet, intellectual interested in the world and history etc. you’re choosing my the wrong people to hang out with.

 

25 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I weigh up the odds of success, someone who is into players will never be into me so why should I bother with her?

Correct. That’s not the problem though. The problem is that you think every woman you’re attracted to is attracted to players. 
 

 

26 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Where I am still uncertain if if a friendship offers more to me than dating.

Are you happy to be friends with women you don’t find physically attractive? If the answer is “no”, then clearly you’re not looking for friendship.

[ZA Dater]

10 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Why are you hanging out with guys like this? For a quiet, intellectual interested in the world and history etc. you’re choosing my the wrong people to hang out with.

Correct. That’s not the problem though. The problem is that you think every woman you’re attracted to is attracted to players. 
Are you happy to be friends with women you don’t find physically attractive? If the answer is “no”, then clearly you’re not looking for friendship.

Those are the only sort of people I know. It works for business, my entire life revolves around work in some form or another. 

I have been proven wrong on this, this particular lady told me flat out she is not interested in players at all, what made this 4 hour long conversation interesting was, she is stunning but her dating issues are not totally different to mine, which was refreshing for me to hear. Its very hard though, back when I could to go out and even go to some parties and not get the idea they all want the fun life the party type guy. I admit its wrong but when you are there and its in your face its very hard to take a different view based on what I am seeing in front of me.

Remember for me, attraction is overall, its how I interact with that person, how they make me feel, that is how I define attraction. 

What you have sort of talked me into is taking a bit of a leap with this lady, I'll send some sort of Valentines voice note, I am going to resist going the cliche flower and nonsense route, I'll take some risk here, I'd also be quite happy to be her friend so the potential loss is fairly low, if she does not speak to me again well so be it, I can at least say I tried.

[Weezy1973]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I have been proven wrong on this, this particular lady told me flat out she is not interested in players at all

Very few women are actually interested in players. They might be attracted to qualities in men that happen to have turned out to be players, but actual interest in guys just wanting to keep things casual / fun / sex is probably reserved for a smallish percentage of women, and those women could also be categorized as “players”.

[ZA Dater]

20 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Very few women are actually interested in players. They might be attracted to qualities in men that happen to have turned out to be players, but actual interest in guys just wanting to keep things casual / fun / sex is probably reserved for a smallish percentage of women, and those women could also be categorized as “players”.

Well I guess you might be right with that, had not thought about it that way. Just seems to me dating is something where there is so little room for error, be in in how one acts, what one says never mind the very little control we have over what is defined as attractive. Its a lot easier to believe in something when I find I am having some success at it or can measure improvements. You have made me think and re assess what I actually want, mostly I think I need to reset where I want to be. Easier I accept the apparent reality which is not very pleasant, I try to change that reality or I accept that my dating reality might not be the same as my friend reality, unquestionably I am better suited as a friend and I ask myself would it be enough to be friends with someone I liked and maybe it would. I do not generally connect emotionally with people, I never have so that is a major component of dating which I would need to overcome and honestly I am not sure I can.

I know how to be a supportive friend, I do not know how to date and I always feel like the stakes are so high when I do find someone I do find attractive that I never really make the right decisions or I make no decision at all and regret that afterwards. What I absolutely do need to try do is let go of the past and with that just accept the present. My inherent logic of course kicks in that says not everyone will have good dating experiences, I am sure there are many people who never find anyone in their lives and I need to accept I might just be one of those people.

[Miss Spider]

On 1/27/2021 at 12:12 PM, Shortskirtslonglashes said:

Done this plenty of times, NGL

What’s bad is when you’re talking to the friend, and he thinks you like him, so he “calls” you, and bc of bro code the guy you really like hangs back... ugh . 
 

it happened to me once. I ended up dating the guy I liked, but it took a lot longer and he told me it was partly because his really friend liked me and he felt bad....but he broke bro core anyway I guess 

[StrongHands]

BRO CODE is a real thing and to some guys sacred.  I like to think that the MUTUAL attraction between two will eventually trump even BRO CODE and that the BRO that is left behind will understand.  Is that wishful thinking?

[ZA Dater]

Basically just friend zoned here. No communication and whenever there is communication I have to initiate it. Weezy had me thinking, players have all the qualities many ladies seem to like, the confidence, the charisma, the outgoing personality, the charm and it would seem those are enough to offset a lack of loyalty. Good time for a short time but not a long time, it would seem.

Would it true to say how one is perceived would also play a fairly important role in overall attraction?

To prove something to myself I expanded my Tinder and Bumble age range to 55 and the matches were just what I expected them would be, I chatted to a few who I did not find attractive and the conversation was not exactly great.

The thing I am genuinely trying to understand, how many people date people they have no interest in or not attraction to because statistically I simply cannot believe everyone who dates is dating the person they want to date, remove emotion from this because I am not driven by emotion to any great degree. 

Then again for me there is no middle ground, I either find someone attractive or I don't. So in some respects when I get rejected instantly I am can sort of respect those people because at least they are not forcing themselves to like someone they do not. 

I think to succeed you need opportunity and the ability to recognize that opportunity, not only that but have enough confidence to know you can play the game. I have never had any of those abilities.

[SumGuy]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

...

The thing I am genuinely trying to understand, how many people date people they have no interest in or not attraction to because statistically I simply cannot believe everyone who dates is dating the person they want to date, remove emotion from this because I am not driven by emotion to any great degree. ...

Maybe that is the issue.  If dating and the relationships that arise therefrom are not about emotion what are they about?  Just sex...and even that should have some passion in it I would hope even if one is a player.  

Respectfully, I think it is all about emotion for you...a woman that is at least a 9 in your eyes who will also guide you/lead you...and together seems to be a lot of protection of ones sense of ego/self from both the status of the attractive woman and one who will help "heal" you help you overcome your "problems."  Not that there is anything wrong with that, or that you are unique, in wanting that...just my advice would be to recognize you are very much driven by emotional needs here.  Just different ones than for example gushing romantic poetry, or swells of love.

[Weezy1973]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Would it true to say how one is perceived would also play a fairly important role in overall attraction?

Initial attraction doesn’t always lead to sustained attraction, and initial indifference can lead to attraction, but initial repulsion never leads to attraction. How one is perceived plays a role in initial attraction, but overall attraction takes time.

 

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Then again for me there is no middle ground, I either find someone attractive or I don't.

This is a big problem, especially with online dating and people are prone to aspirational dating. That is people are the most attracted to people more attractive than themselves, and not at all interested in people less attractive than themselves. Which explains why you’re not attracted to the women that are interested in you, and the women you’re most attracted to aren’t interested in you. 
 

The other thing playing against you is that you’re a relationship oriented guy in your personality, but you’re not really interested in marriage or kids. So the women you’re most interested in from a lifestyle perspective are going to be attracted to guys who don’t necessarily share your core values. Fun and exciting will trump loyalty and honesty for example. For a woman wanting to start a family, she may indeed be more attracted to loyalty and honesty and be indifferent towards fun and exciting.