Can this work

[ZA Dater]

41 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Initial attraction doesn’t always lead to sustained attraction, and initial indifference can lead to attraction, but initial repulsion never leads to attraction. How one is perceived plays a role in initial attraction, but overall attraction takes time.

 

This is a big problem, especially with online dating and people are prone to aspirational dating. That is people are the most attracted to people more attractive than themselves, and not at all interested in people less attractive than themselves. Which explains why you’re not attracted to the women that are interested in you, and the women you’re most attracted to aren’t interested in you. 
 

The other thing playing against you is that you’re a relationship oriented guy in your personality, but you’re not really interested in marriage or kids. So the women you’re most interested in from a lifestyle perspective are going to be attracted to guys who don’t necessarily share your core values. Fun and exciting will trump loyalty and honesty for example. For a woman wanting to start a family, she may indeed be more attracted to loyalty and honesty and be indifferent towards fun and exciting. 

Most of the above is true and the third paragraph is completely true. I have spent of lot of time cycling and thinking about that, there is a total mismatch so I need to find some way of either overcoming that or just accepting I will be on the sidelines. It is extremely difficult to change core values, not impossible but extremely difficult. 

I wont lie the way I motivate myself in general is to aspire to accomplishments but I simply just find all the people I find attractive all have this amazing warmth and confidence which I find very attractive. Again for perspective I live in a very cold world, work is cut throat the ruthless, everyday is a fight and a challenge so its nice to interact with someone who is confident, positive, kind and warm, someone like that does bring out the best in me. 

How does honest and loyal compete with fun and exciting? It probably does not but again I have a choice, either see it negative or see it positive. The fun and exciting guy has value in one way and the loyal and helpful kind guy has value in another way, which is why I have tried so hard to try prove some value but it never really works because fun and exciting takes her to bed, loyal and honest makes you her friend. At least the way I see it, I might be wrong.

 

[ZA Dater]

What people do not always realise is how strong one needs to be to take the battering of rejection for 20+ years and not let it get to them, people do not understand how its possible to be 36 and never had a girlfriend, they simply do not, try explain it and they cannot relate. 

Lot of people say is true, try look good, try keep fit, try be positive, try be enthusiastic, be knowledgeable but none of these things can overcome a personality issue, at least in my opinion. 

Its easier to find a problem than find a solution when it comes to dating. The hardest thing of all is acceptance. 

Fun and exciting is great if you have it, a big problem if you dont.

[StrongHands]

ZA, I also think that it does NO good to dwell on your perceived inadequacies. Do your best to CHANGE these things.  Confidence is a wonderful trait to possess and portray to others 

[trident_2020]

34 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

fun and exciting takes her to bed, loyal and honest makes you her friend. At least the way I see it, I might be wrong.

Fun/exciting, and loyal/honest are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Weezy1973]

17 minutes ago, trident_2020 said:

Fun/exciting, and loyal/honest are not mutually exclusive.

 

Absolutely true, and I’d tend to think women that are initially attracted to fun and exciting are also hoping for loyal and honest. But women that prioritize loyal and honest are most likely to be women that are interested in having a family.

[basil67]

21 minutes ago, trident_2020 said:

Fun/exciting, and loyal/honest are not mutually exclusive.

 

Indeed.  My guy has all of these traits

[SumGuy]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

....

Fun and exciting is great if you have it, a big problem if you dont.

Define fun and exciting?  It's not just one thing.  My gf finds talking about science fun and exciting and money and fashion boring.

Anyone who has some interest or thing they do they have some passion for, be it hobby, work, aspect of life, etc. can be fun and exciting.   

[Foxhall]

You have no desire for kids at all- No?

Yes as muted above - you are likely to have more in common in one sense anyway with women looking for commitment and to start a family,

your at a good age also now if you were on wavelength of becoming a family man.

[chillii]

Very true , perfect age for all this ,,,,, ifff !  And yeah , could of told him yrs ago he's a relationship man no matter what else he tells himself, the kids aspect well, maybe not . And most women are looking for a relationship and love op, no matter what they say. One big thing for you though and you've said it yourself is that your punching above your weight so that only leaves the hope of some wonderful click and chemistry and your other qualities between you and her overriding the weight factor , and it can , all the time, it happens. But given your record so far l wouldn't hold your breath for that to happen. Another very biggie is that you don't want a single mother well fair enough l wouldn't either but someone in your age range will probably wanna have kids so given you don't added to the rest of the equation , unless you change something in there l'd give it Buckley's and none  . May as well stop beating your head against the wall.

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by chillii

[ZA Dater]

On 2/4/2021 at 11:08 PM, Weezy1973 said:

Absolutely true, and I’d tend to think women that are initially attracted to fun and exciting are also hoping for loyal and honest. But women that prioritize loyal and honest are most likely to be women that are interested in having a family.

This is true and a large part of the problem, I do not really "work" with either group so I am basically in no mans land in the middle. 

Anyway this lady still chats to me from time to time, long voice notes to which I respond, she is going to be back in my city next week and I did basically tell her it would be nice to catch up, to which I did not get much of a response. I am very aware she has a lot going on in her life at the moment so maybe friends is the better idea based on what she has going on. 

 

[ZA Dater]

On 2/5/2021 at 2:24 AM, Foxhall said:

You have no desire for kids at all- No?

Yes as muted above - you are likely to have more in common in one sense anyway with women looking for commitment and to start a family,

your at a good age also now if you were on wavelength of becoming a family man.

Have to be honest I am ok with kids themselves what I have a big issue with is the fathers of those kids and the ever present role they will play and the complications that arise from that, I have met many single mothers and every single one has these issues which to be honest I want no part of.  

For whatever friends kids seem to absolutely adore me for whatever reasons and I am told I am good with kids. 

[ZA Dater]

Well I am going to try my luck tomorrow and see how much luck I have or do not have. Irrespective it is nice for me to take an interest in someone and for them to take some sort of interest in me. I think one of the things that is appealing is her and I had very similar upbringings from a cultural point of view so we do seem to share many of the same beliefs and whenever I find people like this I tend to think they "get" me a bit more as they can relate to me better.

Am probably going see her later next week and I may suggest some sort of activity meet up, even going to the park with her baby, perhaps something this forum does not know is I actually do like kids. 

[Calendula]

This is a rather long thread and I read most of it for the first few pages and then at least the parts that you, ZA Dater, wrote in response to various comments for the last few pages. My first impression is that you, the OP, have a very strong sense of self and a very strong idea of the kinds of things you want both from your own life and from others who might possibly share it with you. I can empathize with this, and share the opinion that such an outlook has value, but I also want to point out that this kind of perspective comes with its own challenges. It reminds me of the saying, "if you don't know what you want, then any road will take you there." In contrast to this, you do know what you want, specifically, and therefore it becomes much harder to find it. I've been walking my own unique path through life for years, spending lots of time and thought figuring out exactly what I want and then pursuing it. It isn't easy, but I wouldn't have it any other way because then it wouldn't be me and my life.

 

You seem like the kind of person who can adapt, however, so perhaps a hard look at your relationship priorities might be a worthwhile endeavor. You're a different person now than you were several years ago and principles and priorities need regular reevaluation. As you have pointed out, you have to be true to yourself, and this remains important even to the point of being willing to acknowledge when your own priorities have changed. What really are your "deal-breakers" right now? What did you initially think you wanted from a potential partner that you'd now be willing to reconsider? What have you realized that you simply don't know enough about, thereby making it impossible to make a rational, truly informed decision? As much education and vicarious experience as you might have gained, as much advice as you've taken to heart, some things must be personally experienced to truly know how much it will or will not matter to you in terms of a potential future relationship.

 

I think it is great that you're pursuing this relationship with the widow. Even if it has minimal long term romantic potential, it still has value. The more women you can add to your life, even if just as friends, the more you gain from their perspectives and insight. They can become people you go to for advice as you continue to pursue additional future relationships with other women. You get an opportunity to practice intimate, personal communication with minimal pressure. I think that's at least part of why you were able to form an initial connection with this person: no preconceived expectations, merely simple acceptance and intimate communication. You get real life practice at relating to another person on a level which you've previously had minimal opportunity. I say let it be what it is, let it evolve organically and don't push for more beyond sustained communication, and just keep being you, as you are.

 

Regardless of whether or not she could become a future partner, she is currently a part of your personal life and you could keep her as such if you work to do so. I think that should be your goal more so than trying to "get her into bed" or "date" in a conventional sense. Take this relationship as a chance to work on developing intimacy with another person and maturing your own communication skills with regards to talking about your emotions and thoughts. Don't take the fact that you're the one initiating communication too personally; I appreciate it when guys I've known intimately and personally check in with me by phone or text after we haven't talked for a few months. It's nice to know they're thinking about me and that they care how I'm doing, and I'm typically really bad at maintaining regular contact. Don't worry too much about the future and don't spend too much time trying to label what you have or make it fit into someone else's ideas of a "what should be." You don't seem like a stereotypical kind of guy, so why should your relationships conform to stereotypes?

 

Maybe "dating" in a conventional sense just isn't something that fits in your world. But this doesn't mean that you can't find people to connect with on multiple levels. Perhaps they aren't girlfriend material, but they may be friend material. And it’s a lot easier to accept the flaws and unfavorable traits others have when you let yourself accept them as friends and don't try to shove them into the labeled box of "girlfriend" where they HAVE TO check all the special boxes of compatibility. If you can do this, if you can develop and maintain friendships with women on a social level with varying degrees of intimacy, then I think eventually you could come across someone who you could connect with on an even deeper level. People can surprise you. You might even find that what you thought was necessary for intimacy and compatibility isn't quite as you thought. In some ways it is just like obtaining anything else you've wanted. You start small, in this case with simple connections and friendships, and gradually work up to a goal that previously seemed unobtainable. Perhaps your ultimate goal would be a long-term, romantic relationship, and the steps along the way could be different levels of friendships with different kinds of women. It isn't dating, not really, but it is still connecting and that has value.

[ZA Dater]

23 hours ago, Calendula said:

This is a rather long thread and I read most of it for the first few pages and then at least the parts that you, ZA Dater, wrote in response to various comments for the last few pages. My first impression is that you, the OP, have a very strong sense of self and a very strong idea of the kinds of things you want both from your own life and from others who might possibly share it with you. I can empathize with this, and share the opinion that such an outlook has value, but I also want to point out that this kind of perspective comes with its own challenges. It reminds me of the saying, "if you don't know what you want, then any road will take you there." In contrast to this, you do know what you want, specifically, and therefore it becomes much harder to find it. I've been walking my own unique path through life for years, spending lots of time and thought figuring out exactly what I want and then pursuing it. It isn't easy, but I wouldn't have it any other way because then it wouldn't be me and my life.

 

You seem like the kind of person who can adapt, however, so perhaps a hard look at your relationship priorities might be a worthwhile endeavor. You're a different person now than you were several years ago and principles and priorities need regular reevaluation. As you have pointed out, you have to be true to yourself, and this remains important even to the point of being willing to acknowledge when your own priorities have changed. What really are your "deal-breakers" right now? What did you initially think you wanted from a potential partner that you'd now be willing to reconsider? What have you realized that you simply don't know enough about, thereby making it impossible to make a rational, truly informed decision? As much education and vicarious experience as you might have gained, as much advice as you've taken to heart, some things must be personally experienced to truly know how much it will or will not matter to you in terms of a potential future relationship.

 

 

Well a lot of what you say is true. Knowing what I want is one thing, being able to find it is quite another as you say and yes to some extent I am different but also more jaded, more tired, more cynical and frankly wiser in some way but no more experienced in others. The big deal breaks are issues to do with compatibility. The other deal breaker is a simply matter of "wow", if this is not there I am not interested and no amount of dates will change my mind. 

I do not have many friends and I never have had many friends and I have never really had close friends either. When it comes to this lady I am already going down the friend zone route because I do not know how to do anything else. Never do I get the sense that anyone I find attractive finds me attractive and I have just come to accept this. 

Nobody ever gets close to me to actually engage me on an emotional level, I am always the outsider. Its always been like that, in the dating context I have a friend who used to try set me up with people who he thought were fantastic, except he would not date them. None of them barring perhaps two were attractive but of those two it would have been impossible for me to actually get anywhere because I am so clueless.

The only way I can get anywhere with dating is to simply put everything on the table at the start, she can decide if she wants to accept that or not because I have learnt that trying to hide is futile because my inexperience shows up everywhere when it comes to dating. The problem is why would they choose me with all the issues over someone else who has experience. I am a victim of my own stupidity really and poor choices I made. Also the fact I completely misread what dating is about and squandered the handful of decent dating chances I did have.

Anyway am probably going to see later this week which should be nice. Lets just say few people care enough to bother to ask me how I am. Thats the sort of life I find myself in.

[Calendula]

I think your current situation of possibly being in what is conventionally considered the "friend zone" isn't necessarily a bad thing. If you haven't really had many close friends throughout life then you may need time and practice to forge a close connection to someone, even if that person can't give you all that you initially think you want. I have had a lot of close friendships, some of which I've maintained for years and some that only lasted a short while. I've also had many, many acquaintances. I think the importance of friendships partly comes back to the idea of being completely accepting of another person for who they are. You may be good at accepting yourself as you are, but how much practice have you really had at getting to know another person and accepting them as they are? Even to the point of accepting the parts about them that you don't really like, but tolerate anyway because you like at least something about them? If it isn't something you've ever done much of, it can be difficult, but I believe that such mutual, complete acceptance is eventually the basis of true interpersonal intimacy. Every good long-term relationship I've ever had has, at its core, a solid, close, interpersonal friendship. Until you can maintain a long-term friendship with someone with whom you DON'T match completely, it is hard for me to see how you're going to be able to maintain a long-term romantic relationship. It's like you're trying to jump in the deep end (the serious long-term relationship) before you even know how to swim (maintained friendships). My response to your closing statement of "few people care enough to bother to ask me how I am" is to ask how many people do you ask this same thing on a regular basis? Why would 'they,' whoever they are, ask about you if you don’t ask about them? 

Part of getting to the point where others can get close to you comes from being willing to put yourself out there and expose your vulnerabilities. You have to be willing and able to offer up parts of yourself without expecting returns; to be able to talk about yourself and your experiences, thoughts, beliefs, perspectives, etc. You do seem to have a solid idea of being true to yourself and I think your approach to "putting everything on the table at the start" is absolutely the right way to go. Now, this doesn't mean it has to be everything all at once. You can lay it out a bit at a time, such as might occur at a complicated dinner party where there are lots and lots of courses. When connecting with someone it becomes more of a give and receive, where each person offers up bits of themselves gradually over time, slowly forging connections as you explore similarities and differences, and eventually working your way down to really personal, possibly embarrassing stuff that you wouldn't be willing to tell just anyone. It takes time to build trust through regular, open communication and sharing. From trust, intimacy evolves.

It may help to shift your perspective and the words you use to describe what, exactly, you're doing with other people. If you see "dating" as something that just doesn't work for you, then think of it as "connecting" or "practicing your communication and sharing skills." Sometimes changing the mental labels you apply to your experiences and actions can be enough to help you think about them differently and try new approaches or attitudes. Changing your attitude makes it easier to change your actions. 

You also seem to be operating on the fallacy of "as before, so it will be" or what is called the Gambler's Fallacy. I say this based on your response of: "I am always the outsider. It's always been like that…" Just because something has been the case in the past, it doesn't necessarily follow that it will be so in the future, especially if you change your own actions and decisions in response to certain situations. From your other writings it seems you realize this, and have actively sought change and growth, but it appears you have yet to fully apply this realization to how you view certain other people and their responses to you, at least in a general dating sense.

This bit right here:
"The problem is why would they choose me with all the issues over someone else who has experience" sounds to me like a self-confidence issue. My instinctive response is to say "why would they not, when experience also typically involves 'issues'?" Your argument is again logically flawed and you are devaluing yourself. You're assuming that experience is equivalent to value and worth and that inexperience is equivalent to issues and therefore an absence of value and worth. How does this make logical sense and why can't it be the other way around? 

You also directly invoke your own sense of victimization when you say things like this: "I am a victim of my own stupidity really and poor choices I made." So long as you view yourself as a victim of your past decisions you are allowing your past decisions to maintain power over your current and future perspectives. Your very phrasing invokes imagery of present, pitiful you as the weak victim who suffers because of the actions of some powerful ambiguous figure in your past (who is also you). So what if you made bad decisions in the past? You don't have to continue to do so. You get that choice, the choice to change your mind and your actions, and to stop seeing yourself as a victim but rather as simply where you are, for better or worse. But you only get this choice so long as you are willing to acknowledge and embrace what was and why you did it, even when you don't like it. This is true acceptance of yourself, as you are. Only then can you try to find the good things about you as you currently are. There are distinct advantages to being inexperienced but they only work in your favor if you can find a way to embrace them and see opportunities instead of what you've previously viewed as deficiencies. 

[Calendula]

Part of the reason I find your thread fascinating is that for the past two months I've been "dating" a guy who also significantly lacks in relationship experience. He's 33 (I'm 38) and never had a girlfriend or even many close friends. He's quiet, introverted, somewhat awkward socially, but also kind, intelligent, quick-witted, seems to be honest, and cares about his appearance and health. He's also known hardships and disappointments and worked hard to get past them. I'm a confident, accomplished person who has had several long term relationships and my own complicated life path. I'm generally considered to be a good communicator, and I have no trouble getting out and connecting with people. He had exactly the same concern you did, fearing that because of my relationship experience I wouldn't be interested in continuing to talk to him because he had no clue as to what he was "supposed to do" in a relationship. But he took the risk to put himself out there, he keeps trying and learning, and he has a strong interest in personal growth. I respect that and I appreciate that he's made a point of working to improve himself. I accept that he is sometimes clueless, I don't ever make fun of him for it, and as I get to know him I try to keep in mind that his responses aren't always going to be standard or typical. Sometimes he surprises me because he gives me the completely rational response to something rather than the standard, socially accepted response. I like it when he does this because it breaks me out of the "standard expectations" mindset. Sometimes he will be completely clueless and I have to be more direct about telling him what I expect in terms of behavior or responses. But this works for me because I appreciate direct, clear communication and expressly stated expectations. He doesn't have strong preconceived notions of how things between us "should be" and he's generally just himself once he stops being shy and cautious so we are better able to make up our own rules and conventions as we go instead of trying to conform to social expectations. I've never been a "conformer" so again this works for me. Not having previous relationship experiences combined with a general sense of maturity and self-awareness actually makes him easier to relate to and work with than some of the boyfriends I've had in the past who had lots of experience and the "emotional baggage" that often comes with it. 

My point with telling you about the guy I've been seeing is that perspective matters. You have worth and value. Your experiences and even your lack of certain experiences have value. If any person you are spending time with can't see and respect that value then they aren't worth your time investment and you move on to the next. I can see how it would be hard to view yourself with an outside perspective; if you have no intimate relationship experience then it is impossible to judge the value of a lack of experience. It doesn't help that society and social conventions throw certain preconceived notions into our faces, telling you that you "should" be a certain way by now, but what you have to offer is special. 

You seem like a mature, self-aware, generally confident, reasonably private, honest person who would make a great partner for the kind of woman who is fed up with the bullshit and drama and wants a real long-term partner rather than a whirlwind romance, party companion or FWB. But YOU have to see yourself this way, as a worthy possible partner, in order for what you have to offer to work to your advantage in any capacity. I think you also need to remain open to the idea that you still have a lot to learn about communicating and connecting. You don't have to learn it all at once or from just one person, but it does have to come from real-life practice rather than the examples of others. 

There is also a flip-side to your situation that you might want to keep in mind. This is something that I worry about for my own situation. Think of yourself from the experienced woman's perspective, my perspective in this case. I worry that the guy I'm seeing may unintentionally use me to figure out what this dating thing is all about, eventually be physically intimate, and then decide that I'm not the one for him. So then I might end up in the situation where I would have invested plenty of extra time in helping this guy gain experience and communication skills and he goes off and decides that he wants to explore some more relationships or that something about me and my complex and full life is just too much for him to handle. Alternatively, he might try to stay with me for much longer than he should, bending himself in knots to try and please me out of a sense of obligation or guilt, even though we end up being fundamentally incompatible. I can't know what might happen, but I have to accept and watch out for multiple possible futures from the beginning. I have to be willing to give without expecting return. I have to maintain a certain awareness of fundamental compatibilities and interactions because I'm the one with more experience. In this sense, experience comes with responsibility because it allows me to better see common dead-end or conflict pathways and work to avoid them as the relationship develops. Every relationships started will eventually end, and it won't always end on our chosen terms. But that isn't a valid reason to avoid them. People need people. We are social creatures, even those of us who are comfortable being alone and who are predominantly introverted (which I also am). And so we must plan for the worst, hope for the best, and get out there and take risks through our actions. 
 

[Cheryl123]

Where do you get your inspiration from? 

[ZA Dater]

22 hours ago, Calendula said:

Part of the reason I find your thread fascinating is that for the past two months I've been "dating" a guy who also significantly lacks in relationship experience. He's 33 (I'm 38) and never had a girlfriend or even many close friends. He's quiet, introverted, somewhat awkward socially, but also kind, intelligent, quick-witted, seems to be honest, and cares about his appearance and health. He's also known hardships and disappointments and worked hard to get past them. I'm a confident, accomplished person who has had several long term relationships and my own complicated life path. I'm generally considered to be a good communicator, and I have no trouble getting out and connecting with people. He had exactly the same concern you did, fearing that because of my relationship experience I wouldn't be interested in continuing to talk to him because he had no clue as to what he was "supposed to do" in a relationship. But he took the risk to put himself out there, he keeps trying and learning, and he has a strong interest in personal growth. I respect that and I appreciate that he's made a point of working to improve himself. I accept that he is sometimes clueless, I don't ever make fun of him for it, and as I get to know him I try to keep in mind that his responses aren't always going to be standard or typical. Sometimes he surprises me because he gives me the completely rational response to something rather than the standard, socially accepted response. I like it when he does this because it breaks me out of the "standard expectations" mindset. Sometimes he will be completely clueless and I have to be more direct about telling him what I expect in terms of behavior or responses. But this works for me because I appreciate direct, clear communication and expressly stated expectations. He doesn't have strong preconceived notions of how things between us "should be" and he's generally just himself once he stops being shy and cautious so we are better able to make up our own rules and conventions as we go instead of trying to conform to social expectations. I've never been a "conformer" so again this works for me. Not having previous relationship experiences combined with a general sense of maturity and self-awareness actually makes him easier to relate to and work with than some of the boyfriends I've had in the past who had lots of experience and the "emotional baggage" that often comes with it. 

 

Its good to know there are a few more versions of me

You highlight a lot of things in this post, how you accept him as he is, help him in certain ways, unfortunately my experience is people generally cant be bothered to invest the way you have with him, it just becomes a game of throw away and move onto the next. My other problem is I put other first, a good example was there was someone who I think did like me but i just was not feeling particularly interested in her so in my mind I cannot lead on because that is just nasty and wastes her time. Sure, I could go do lunches with her but she'd always want more and I'd have to reject her, I do not really want to put myself in that position because I know what rejection is like. 

Inherently I look at the most logical way to do things, some people are driven by emotion, I am not really driven by emotion to any great degree because it can cloud decision making. Everything for me becomes some sort of competition, I have spent years looking at guys who date and date well and try apply what they do and all I have learnt is I am not that sort of person. Yes with the right person I can find confidence and I can tell you this, the more I like the person the more I am forced to be a better version, that is probably the only good thing dating has done for me. But I also realise that most of the time I will loose out to the super dating successful guys, they have universal traits of attraction whereas I do not. 

Sure, everyone has value but not everyone is valued. I have developed a pretty thick skin and vulnerable is not a word that can be ever used to describe me, simply put I need to be as strong a rock for most hours of the day and that means showing little to no weakness. I have gone through things I hope nobody has to endure but those taught me to be strong and resolute. Ironically this makes me seek out warm people and they are almost always people who are just nice to me and make me feel good, again a very occurrence. 

For me there needs to be a purpose, do this in the hope of accomplishing that. I love kids because they teach us so much, they do not judge  and teach a kid to play cricket or something simple and the level appreciation from them just makes it all worth while, to that kid I am just a guy who make him laugh, the spectre of judgement is not there. Compare this to miss blond at the coffee bar. She is going to get approached by dating successful guy so if I had to wonder over and start some awkward conversation I am going to be on the other side of a big loss because the judgement will be extreme.

 

[ZA Dater]

23 hours ago, Calendula said:

I think your current situation of possibly being in what is conventionally considered the "friend zone" isn't necessarily a bad thing. If you haven't really had many close friends throughout life then you may need time and practice to forge a close connection to someone, even if that person can't give you all that you initially think you want. I have had a lot of close friendships, some of which I've maintained for years and some that only lasted a short while. I've also had many, many acquaintances. I think the importance of friendships partly comes back to the idea of being completely accepting of another person for who they are. You may be good at accepting yourself as you are, but how much practice have you really had at getting to know another person and accepting them as they are? Even to the point of accepting the parts about them that you don't really like, but tolerate anyway because you like at least something about them? If it isn't something you've ever done much of, it can be difficult, but I believe that such mutual, complete acceptance is eventually the basis of true interpersonal intimacy. Every good long-term relationship I've ever had has, at its core, a solid, close, interpersonal friendship. Until you can maintain a long-term friendship with someone with whom you DON'T match completely, it is hard for me to see how you're going to be able to maintain a long-term romantic relationship. It's like you're trying to jump in the deep end (the serious long-term relationship) before you even know how to swim (maintained friendships). My response to your closing statement of "few people care enough to bother to ask me how I am" is to ask how many people do you ask this same thing on a regular basis? Why would 'they,' whoever they are, ask about you if you don’t ask about them? 

Part of getting to the point where others can get close to you comes from being willing to put yourself out there and expose your vulnerabilities. You have to be willing and able to offer up parts of yourself without expecting returns; to be able to talk about yourself and your experiences, thoughts, beliefs, perspectives, etc. You do seem to have a solid idea of being true to yourself and I think your approach to "putting everything on the table at the start" is absolutely the right way to go. Now, this doesn't mean it has to be everything all at once. You can lay it out a bit at a time, such as might occur at a complicated dinner party where there are lots and lots of courses. When connecting with someone it becomes more of a give and receive, where each person offers up bits of themselves gradually over time, slowly forging connections as you explore similarities and differences, and eventually working your way down to really personal, possibly embarrassing stuff that you wouldn't be willing to tell just anyone. It takes time to build trust through regular, open communication and sharing. From trust, intimacy evolves.

 

Friend zone gets me some of what I want, it does not get me someone to take to dinner, or someone to take on holiday or something to sit next to at the end of a long day. What it normally gets me is someone who needs me for a specific purpose and I am pigeon holed to that purpose so that is my use and that is as far as things go.

Sure, perfection does not exist but I do not look at people like that, I look at the good, good for me can outweigh a lot of bad and this is purely personality driven, I can appreciate someone who has a difficult life but is honest about it, I mean I ended up unintentionally on a date with a hooker once and had one of the most interesting conversations I have ever had, what she did, did not interest me but her outlook did.

The bold is why I like this lady because this is pretty much how our conversations seem to go...which is new to me because I do not usually feel the need to share to that extent but our life experiences are very different our core principles are very similar.

[Calendula]

One of the most insidious things about devaluing oneself is that it causes you to believe that you're not worthy of someone giving you things, for whatever reason they might choose to do so. You say you put others first, and this may be so and you may indeed intend to do that, but perhaps you're looking out for yourself, protecting yourself, more so than you are considering what they might really want or be interested in. Also, how often do you really think you put yourself first and in what ways? Maybe you should pursue relationships to get what YOU need too, rather than just thinking about what you believe another person might want (even though you can't ever really know without asking them). You say you want to improve your ability to connect to others and yet you seem to have avoided certain situations when you might have been able to do so, even if on the smallest of levels. This example in your response shows some odd circular logic and I see things in it that perhaps you don't.

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

My other problem is I put other first, a good example was there was someone who I think did like me but i just was not feeling particularly interested in her so in my mind I cannot lead on because that is just nasty and wastes her time. Sure, I could go do lunches with her but she'd always want more and I'd have to reject her, I do not really want to put myself in that position because I know what rejection is like. 

Here's how I read it:

She liked you and expressed that interest in some way that made you aware of it. You weren't sure if you really liked her. Probably not a lot of time or interaction had occurred. You considered possible futures that involved lunch and outings. You jumped to the conclusion that eventually she would want more from you than you'd be willing or able to give. Without exploring the actual interaction further in real life, you rejected the possibility and her probable advances. You rationalized your rejection of both her and any degree of possible interaction by saying you were trying to not "lead her on" and were saving her from a future where she would have to experience your rejection. 

And so here are my questions regarding such a scenario. Had you done anything to indicate any degree of interest? Had you actually communicated to her that you appreciated her interest and might be fine with hanging out and getting to know one another, but that you were unsure about possible future potential because you didn't really know her? For someone who seems to value logical decisions, your logic and reasoning with regards to people and emotional connections seems rather flawed. Your very writing in this description of your interaction with another person is expressly focused on you and how you felt about the situation. What do you think she felt or hoped or might have wanted to try? You expressly say that you did "not want to put myself in that position," in this case the position of being honest and straightforward with her about your feelings or lack thereof. Had you discussed what you were thinking with her directly, with an open mind and a sense of possibility, it may be that she could have convinced you to change your mind with time. Perhaps you two could have discussed what limited ways you did connect and you could have enjoyed a few pleasant interactions with her. Sure, it might not have worked out in the long run, but neither do most relationships. Sometimes it is good to have relationships for just right now, the kind that you KNOW from the beginning aren't meant to last, if only for the experiences you gain while in them. And yet in this scenario it seems that you didn't even give her a chance to try and improve her connection with you. 

 

I will highlight here that YOU have to give people opportunities to get to know you, just as you yourself want those same opportunities from others. People can spend years together and continuously learn new things about each other, especially people who meet as mature adults with lifetimes of experience behind them. To think you could know enough about someone to say whether you're attracted to them, really, from the very moment you meet them is to take a very limited perspective on who they may be as a person.  

 

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Friend zone gets me some of what I want, it does not get me someone to take to dinner, or someone to take on holiday or something to sit next to at the end of a long day. What it normally gets me is someone who needs me for a specific purpose and I am pigeon holed to that purpose so that is my use and that is as far as things go

So what, exactly, is so wrong with being wanted or needed for a specific purpose in someone's life? Don't you get something out of interacting with them as well? Don't you get some sense of companionship from being around them or accomplishment from helping them with the thing they need you for? So long as you are also gaining something from the experience, which may be different yet of equivalent value to you, then what is the harm in maintaining a defined, limited parameter relationship with someone? I think it comes back to a question of balance; how much can I give to another before I reach my limit and are they able to give something meaningful to me in return. For me, such interactions are rarely on an equivalence basis, but each of us plays to our strengths and offers the other person something they want or need that we, ourselves, don't currently have.

 

 

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Inherently I look at the most logical way to do things, some people are driven by emotion, I am not really driven by emotion to any great degree because it can cloud decision making.

I think that you ARE driven by emotion to more of a degree than you perhaps like to admit to yourself. You certainly seem to be driven by the desire to avoid pain, rejection, and other negative feelings. You seem to feel loneliness and therefore desire a person to share your life with. You seem to want companionship and feel frustration at your inability to connect with others. From what I see of your writings you absolutely seem to feel fear, despair, dejection, frustration, envy, loss, loneliness, apathy, disappointment, defensiveness, and pain. And yet you also seem to be able to maintain the emotions and traits of hope, desire, joy, humor, enthusiasm, persistence, determination, passion, and probably others. If you couldn't, I wouldn't expect you'd continue interacting with the LS forums. However logical and rational you may think you are, I can see from your writings that your emotions, especially your negative emotions, ARE INDEED affecting your decision making with regards to other people and how you interact with them. You seem to actively avoid situations that might lead to happiness because they will probably lead to rejection, therefore creating a reality in which you have nothing to work towards, not even the momentary experiences of a brief positive interaction. 

 

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I have developed a pretty thick skin and vulnerable is not a word that can be ever used to describe me, simply put I need to be as strong a rock for most hours of the day and that means showing little to no weakness. I have gone through things I hope nobody has to endure but those taught me to be strong and resolute. Ironically this makes me seek out warm people and they are almost always people who are just nice to me and make me feel good, again a very occurrence. 

You say you have a thick skin and work to make yourself invulnerable because of your life experiences. I wonder if perhaps your life to date has caused you to shove your emotions down below the level of conscious awareness to the point where you now have trouble interpreting them and seeing how they subtly and yet significantly influence your life. You may WANT (desire) to be completely logical and impassionate, because you may think to be so means to be strong, but these behaviors aren't necessarily strengths when it comes to relationships with other people. To meaningfully connect with a woman, you have to let her in, under your thick skin, past your invulnerable outer shell, to see the realities of so many of the emotions that you've avoided paying attention to for so long. To successfully do this, you first have to explore that inner emotional space for yourself. I think that a significant part of good, intimate communication is based on each individual figuring out what they feel and why they feel that way and then effectively communicating it to the other person. If you don't know what you feel and why, then how can you share it with another individual? They certainly can't read your mind or emotions and you therefore have to ACTIVELY let them inside your mental and emotional walls if you want to connect with them.

 

Perhaps part of your attraction to warm, caring, kind people is because these are the kind of people who tend to be in touch with their own emotions and the emotions of others. Maybe being around such people helps you better connect with your own emotions through their examples and unintentional guidance. And yet, if you want more such people in your life, you have to consider that perhaps you should do some work on yourself in this area as well, to be better able to connect to those warm, caring people in turn. 

 

Only you can know your entire history with women, but I find it curious that the few examples you've brought up (that I'm aware of) where you do connect with women and have interesting conversations, involve women who you may view in some way as unobtainable or are interactions that occurred spontaneously. Perhaps this makes them "safe," and less likely to cause you the pain of rejection and so you're initially more willing to share things about yourself. The person you're currently interested in isn't even someone who lives nearby, so how would maintaining communication with her ever lead to dinner, holiday plans, or regular companionship any time soon? And yet you still desire to remain in contact with this woman (which I think is a great thing). It may be unlikely that the two of you could work out as a couple, but more unlikely things have worked out given enough time, effort, determination and conviction. I really do believe that the only way to predict the future is to help create it. What you do, think, say, feel, and believe, matters. Every tiny little thing... 

 

I read what you write and it's like you're right on the edge of finally having that moment of epiphany, where everything you logically know finally clicks together with your emotional awareness to allow you to connect with someone... With just a few tweaks to your thinking and actions and you might yet manage it. Don't give up on this pursuit, keep trying, and you might just finally obtain what it is you really want...

 

 

[ZA Dater]

18 hours ago, Calendula said:

One of the most insidious things about devaluing oneself is that it causes you to believe that you're not worthy of someone giving you things, for whatever reason they might choose to do so. You say you put others first, and this may be so and you may indeed intend to do that, but perhaps you're looking out for yourself, protecting yourself, more so than you are considering what they might really want or be interested in. Also, how often do you really think you put yourself first and in what ways? Maybe you should pursue relationships to get what YOU need too, rather than just thinking about what you believe another person might want (even though you can't ever really know without asking them). You say you want to improve your ability to connect to others and yet you seem to have avoided certain situations when you might have been able to do so, even if on the smallest of levels. This example in your response shows some odd circular logic and I see things in it that perhaps you don't.

Here's how I read it:

She liked you and expressed that interest in some way that made you aware of it. You weren't sure if you really liked her. Probably not a lot of time or interaction had occurred. You considered possible futures that involved lunch and outings. You jumped to the conclusion that eventually she would want more from you than you'd be willing or able to give. Without exploring the actual interaction further in real life, you rejected the possibility and her probable advances. You rationalized your rejection of both her and any degree of possible interaction by saying you were trying to not "lead her on" and were saving her from a future where she would have to experience your rejection. 

And so here are my questions regarding such a scenario. Had you done anything to indicate any degree of interest? Had you actually communicated to her that you appreciated her interest and might be fine with hanging out and getting to know one another, but that you were unsure about possible future potential because you didn't really know her? For someone who seems to value logical decisions, your logic and reasoning with regards to people and emotional connections seems rather flawed. Your very writing in this description of your interaction with another person is expressly focused on you and how you felt about the situation. What do you think she felt or hoped or might have wanted to try? You expressly say that you did "not want to put myself in that position," in this case the position of being honest and straightforward with her about your feelings or lack thereof. Had you discussed what you were thinking with her directly, with an open mind and a sense of possibility, it may be that she could have convinced you to change your mind with time. Perhaps you two could have discussed what limited ways you did connect and you could have enjoyed a few pleasant interactions with her. Sure, it might not have worked out in the long run, but neither do most relationships. Sometimes it is good to have relationships for just right now, the kind that you KNOW from the beginning aren't meant to last, if only for the experiences you gain while in them. And yet in this scenario it seems that you didn't even give her a chance to try and improve her connection with you. 

 

 

 

I read what you write and it's like you're right on the edge of finally having that moment of epiphany, where everything you logically know finally clicks together with your emotional awareness to allow you to connect with someone... With just a few tweaks to your thinking and actions and you might yet manage it. Don't give up on this pursuit, keep trying, and you might just finally obtain what it is you really want...

 

 

Here is the thing though. When you learn to ride a bike you fall off at first a few times, you get up and you ride for longer and then you might fall off but you still seem to improve, you can measure that improvement and its the same with most things. With dating I simply have gone nowhere, its not better now at 36 than it was at 16. I still have not found mutual attraction, I still have not found any of the normal things people experience. So what of it you might say, well its a bit like why carry on with this when it gives me very little, all I have really are a collection of frankly insignificant nice moments which are like crumbs of good cake but nothing significant. I then look at how I am supposed to see the positive in this and its very difficult, its difficult answer questions why I am always single, its difficult to explain these things. Its not like there are any great prospects either, OLD is frankly the only real barometer of attraction, if you are not attracting attractive people on OLD you cannot expect to attract them in person. 

I am prepared to take the risk if I deem there to be any sort of chance of success but the reality is there is not. I have been thrown in the garbage often enough to know this, instead what is possible is not what I want and completely incompatible with where I am and where I want to go in life. There is no upside to settling in my opinion.

The point is there was not much interest from her, we met up 3 times, she lives far away relatively speaking, COVID arrived and yeah, there is nothing bad about her but I am very conscious she was married to the love of her life and he died suddenly so I do not really want to lead her on in any way at all, I have had a few people besotted with me and rejecting them was not something I enjoyed doing. I am quite sure the people who rejected me did actually enjoy it based on the people they landed up with. Sure she might have slept with me but I know I would not feel good about doing that and then rejecting her later down the line. Of course almost every other guy I know would have jumped at the chance and moved on, I simply would not feel comfortable doing that. As an aside she is a therapist, this might amuse some of the forum....

There is nothing wrong with a specific purpose friendship, most of my friendships, in fact almost all are like that but they do not help overt the feeling of loneliness and eventually I just end up feeling used.

For me a lot goes back to your post about the guy you are seeing, you are actually giving him a chance, you accept him for who he is, I am cannot find anyone I find attractive who is prepared to do that. For me if for just once I could actually find that it would increase my confidence an sense of well I can attain this, when all you experience is rejection you cannot pretend that does not exist, yes I can hide it but its always there, people pick it up, just like they pick up my inability to flirt so an inherent inability to show any sort of interest. This goes back to three times when I did show overt interest and I got rejected each time, I do not share much because the more I share, the more I invest the greater sense of rejection.

I agree being dispassionate is not an advantage at all, its a massive impediment but when I have zero charm, nothing to shout about looks wise and nothing to really offer its easier to just be strong and face the inevitable rejection, let it wash off like water and focus on something else for a while until I once again feel like trying again, knowing full well what the result will be. My feelings on dating are purely based on very poor past experiences and I told this lady that, I was completely up front about this. I told her I have never had any success at all.

Again my experience is warm engaging people are few and far between in the world I live in. Its like confident people, they make me a better person because I am forced to be more confident to engage with them, that has always been the thing, I like some form of challenge, the more unlikely the idea the more that idea interests me, people spent years telling me as I kid I could not do this and that and you know what, many times I proved them wrong. I started dating on the idea that the field was level and everyone had an equal chance, stupid this was but I believed it for a while but eventually I realised that fund charming dude is getting the ladies and I am, the funny dude likewise, the dude who spend 30 hours in the gym and I looked at this and thought, why am I actually doing this? For what end am I taking myself to the edge of reason when actually nobody I find attractive finds me attractive.

Some small good experiences happened and each time I sought to try replicate that again and that kept/keeps me going.

My honest belief is I missed the boat on dating and I simply am so far out of step with everyone else I am going to forever be rejected because I am simply not what people want even though I am happy with the person I am. I am happy with the majority of the life decisions I have made, my life is unconventional and by some means would be judged harshly but so be it. There is the thing I am happy with who I am. My core belief is I am good person and I try to do good for no other reason than it is my belief and the standard I hold myself too.

I agree with a lot of what you say and as I am say I glad that the guy you are dating has found you because the world he and I live in is not one where many chances are given and even fewer people take on a "project". The reality is I know I could simply "buy" the date I want, its not a stretch to get exactly what I want but morally I simply cannot, I'd always know it was fake, a friend took me to a strip club and I hated it, it was all completely false(the interaction in case anyone is wondering) but I get why guys like it because it sells an idea which is not reality and maybe I am the same, the idea of someone attractive to me, sharing things, doing things, experiencing things, sharing life an attractive one but maybe the reality is not meant for me. Either I sit and sulk about life or I put dating the side, pretend its there and also pretend it is not and get along with the singular largely lonely life I have created, squeeze the joys out of it and enjoy those, simply accept not everyone is the same and none of us are entitled to anything however much we might want what we want. 

Ultimately I am never going to sell if there is no inherent chance of the other person actually buying and based on what I see around me what I have is not only not wanted its totally unmarketable. Again it sounds negative but 20 years of rejection supports that conclusion fairly conclusively. I think of it like this, I can live a miserable reality or a very pleasant dream, I prefer the latter irrespective of how unlikely it might be.

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Again it sounds negative but 20 years of rejection supports that conclusion fairly conclusively.

You’ve got cause and effect backwards. You’re lack of success is because of your core belief that someone you’re attracted to will never be attracted to you. As long as you believe that, it’s impossible to succeed. Literally impossible. 

[basil67]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Here is the thing though. When you learn to ride a bike you fall off at first a few times, you get up and you ride for longer and then you might fall off but you still seem to improve, you can measure that improvement and its the same with most things.

The problem is still that you're punching above and won't consider changing yourself to become one who fits in with those at the top with regards to desirability factor. 

In cycling terms:  some people are naturally gifted in sport.  I am not.   I learned to ride a bike, but unlike those for whom sport comes easy, I will never be good or strong without a trainer and a great deal of change on my part.   Forget the peleton, I'm not even going to get a look in.   If I want to play with the fast guys, I must change all my habits.  Same goes for dating.  If you want to play with those at the top of the desirability factor, you'll need to change to be more like them.

Edited February 17, 2021 by basil67

[spiderowl]

I am beginning to get the feeling that you present yourself as 'this is how I am', take me or leave me, and then find that women are not eager to do that.  I also get the impression that the 'charm' you do not like is what attracts you to this particular woman.  She chatted with you, she brought you out of yourself - in other words, she was charming, thinking of and talking about you not just herself.  You could be charming in that way too.  How do you behave with women?  Do you ask them about themselves and then listen?  I can promise you, the one trait that most men have is that they do not listen.  What they tend to do is to listen briefly and then:

i) try to tell you what you should be doing;

ii) change the subject;

or

iii) mention their philosophy of it and talk about their experience of whatever it is, and then continue talking endlessly.

One thing women do not want (usually) is someone who is a 'take me or leave me' type of guy.  This is not because the guy is not physically attractive (though he is unlikely to be physically attractive as he probably makes no effort to get a nice haircut, wear clean, ironed clothes, or to be well groomed).  Most women are not attracted to smelly people who don't look after themselves.  I am not suggesting that you are like this at all - I have no idea about that - but just saying that 'take me or leave me' is not a good attitude if it affects personal grooming or manners.

You are interpreting guys who are good at chatting up women as 'charming'.  They are not charming, they might be good-looking or they might know how to interest women.  Very few are charming.  You want a woman who is interested in you - women want a man who shows interest in them - which means asking questions, listening, empathising.  You want a woman you find attractive, which means she must make the best of herself and ideally be naturally pretty - she wants someone she finds attractive in that way too, so the guy needs to make an effort.  You want a woman to appreciate your moral qualities - she wants someone to appreciate her unique qualities too so it is worth getting to know what she takes pride in.

Finally, you reject women you are not 'attracted to' which actually sounds like women at the top of the attractiveness scale.  These women not only have lots of choice but may well have had lots of boyfriends.  They can pick and choose regardless of what kind of personality they have.  They might be awful people but as long as they look good they will get attention.  What kind of personality do you want in a woman?  Why must she be so attractive that she is physically rare?  What about the lovely women who are left?  Attraction can be instant, but mostly it can build.  If you date a woman whose personality you really like, you may find you are becoming more attracted to her.  This happens naturally with friend groups and that kind of attraction is not evident in online dating because all people look at is pictures.  However, in real life there can be terrific chemistry between people whose personalities work together.  You are looking at a face and body to decide the personality of the woman you want: that is not rational.

One thing women are fairly good at is sussing out which men are nice, polite, decent, generous, mean, controlling or judgemental.  They might not say they decided not to continue dating a guy because, despite his efforts, he was clearly only interested in looks or had a mean streak; they will just fizzle out.  They might not say he didn't make sure I was comfortable before sitting down and he didn't offer to buy me a drink first; they will just not date him again.  They might not say he talked about how women had wronged him in the past; they will just avoid him in future.  It is really easy to see if a guy is judging you.  Guys think they are not obvious but they are.  I just think you may be missing how you are coming across to women and that this has nothing to do with how you look.  It could be that you are feeling angry about having been rejected in the past and this anger is seeping through and they pick up on it.  I am sure women are capable of picking up on your many good qualities but they are also incredibly good at picking up on underlying feelings.  If such feelings are detected, it can make the woman feel confused.  If she is confused, she might ask questions afterwards, to try to understand, or might not go for a second date.

It's worth considering what your underlying feelings about a woman are - she will pick up on that and probably respond accordingly.

Edited February 18, 2021 by spiderowl

[Trail Blazer]

@spiderowl the OP continually tells us that the women he's after are not super-atrractive.  He assures us that they're just normal looking, "not fat" people. 

Essentually, the people which he finds he matches with on Tinder and the like, are the ones he does not find physically attractive.

Can you blame a guy for not wanting to be with someone he doesn't find physically attractive?  I certainly can't, nor could many others if they're being honest.

OP's problems are that the odds are stacked against most dudes on dating sites, as men outnumber women by a significant factor.  The SMV is skewed way in favor of women.

OP's other problem is that he has no real way of connecting in person (this pre-dates any Covid issues) because he a) has poor social skills, and b) refuses to engage in activities where he may be exposed to more women.

I feel for OP as I believe he's his own worst enemy.  He's stuck in a massive rut where he's seemingly doomed to relationship failure because he's holding out for the perfect first relationship.

I can not see this ever changing.