Can this work

[ZA Dater]

14 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

You’ve got cause and effect backwards. You’re lack of success is because of your core belief that someone you’re attracted to will never be attracted to you. As long as you believe that, it’s impossible to succeed. Literally impossible. 

It's also impossible when your own friends are trying to actually not help either. Case in point, friend is already trying to set this lady up with one of his other friends.

Clearly he deems me unsuitable.

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

@spiderowl the OP continually tells us that the women he's after are not super-atrractive.  He assures us that they're just normal looking, "not fat" people. 

Essentually, the people which he finds he matches with on Tinder and the like, are the ones he does not find physically attractive.

Can you blame a guy for not wanting to be with someone he doesn't find physically attractive?  I certainly can't, nor could many others if they're being honest.

OP's problems are that the odds are stacked against most dudes on dating sites, as men outnumber women by a significant factor.  The SMV is skewed way in favor of women.

OP's other problem is that he has no real way of connecting in person (this pre-dates any Covid issues) because he a) has poor social skills, and b) refuses to engage in activities where he may be exposed to more women.

I feel for OP as I believe he's his own worst enemy.  He's stuck in a massive rut where he's seemingly doomed to relationship failure because he's holding out for the perfect first relationship.

I can not see this ever changing.

You right I just never match with people I find attractive. Actually my social skills are ok, I wouldn't be able to deal with people daily if they were not. The fact I can't be bothered to care who is sleeping with who, who drinks what, who is gossiping about who, honestly none of that interests me. I simply stopped doing social things with one friend because this was all that everything revolved around.

Activities where I may be exposed well again it's the same old hiking group's full or single mothers ten years older than me, or its going drinking as many social aspects seem to revolve around.

 

[ZA Dater]

9 hours ago, spiderowl said:

I am beginning to get the feeling that you present yourself as 'this is how I am', take me or leave me, and then find that women are not eager to do that.  I also get the impression that the 'charm' you do not like is what attracts you to this particular woman.  She chatted with you, she brought you out of yourself - in other words, she was charming, thinking of and talking about you not just herself.  You could be charming in that way too.  How do you behave with women?  Do you ask them about themselves and then listen?  I can promise you, the one trait that most men have is that they do not listen.  What they tend to do is to listen briefly and then:

i) try to tell you what you should be doing;

ii) change the subject;

or

iii) mention their philosophy of it and talk about their experience of whatever it is, and then continue talking endlessly.

One thing women do not want (usually) is someone who is a 'take me or leave me' type of guy.  This is not because the guy is not physically attractive (though he is unlikely to be physically attractive as he probably makes no effort to get a nice haircut, wear clean, ironed clothes, or to be well groomed).  Most women are not attracted to smelly people who don't look after themselves.  I am not suggesting that you are like this at all - I have no idea about that - but just saying that 'take me or leave me' is not a good attitude if it affects personal grooming or manners.

You are interpreting guys who are good at chatting up women as 'charming'.  They are not charming, they might be good-looking or they might know how to interest women.  Very few are charming.  You want a woman who is interested in you - women want a man who shows interest in them - which means asking questions, listening, empathising.  You want a woman you find attractive, which means she must make the best of herself and ideally be naturally pretty - she wants someone she finds attractive in that way too, so the guy needs to make an effort.  You want a woman to appreciate your moral qualities - she wants someone to appreciate her unique qualities too so it is worth getting to know what she takes pride in.

Finally, you reject women you are not 'attracted to' which actually sounds like women at the top of the attractiveness scale.  These women not only have lots of choice but may well have had lots of boyfriends.  They can pick and choose regardless of what kind of personality they have.  They might be awful people but as long as they look good they will get attention.  What kind of personality do you want in a woman?  Why must she be so attractive that she is physically rare?  What about the lovely women who are left?  Attraction can be instant, but mostly it can build.  If you date a woman whose personality you really like, you may find you are becoming more attracted to her.  This happens naturally with friend groups and that kind of attraction is not evident in online dating because all people look at is pictures.  However, in real life there can be terrific chemistry between people whose personalities work together.  You are looking at a face and body to decide the personality of the woman you want: that is not rational.

One thing women are fairly good at is sussing out which men are nice, polite, decent, generous, mean, controlling or judgemental.  They might not say they decided not to continue dating a guy because, despite his efforts, he was clearly only interested in looks or had a mean streak; they will just fizzle out.  They might not say he didn't make sure I was comfortable before sitting down and he didn't offer to buy me a drink first; they will just not date him again.  They might not say he talked about how women had wronged him in the past; they will just avoid him in future.  It is really easy to see if a guy is judging you.  Guys think they are not obvious but they are.  I just think you may be missing how you are coming across to women and that this has nothing to do with how you look.  It could be that you are feeling angry about having been rejected in the past and this anger is seeping through and they pick up on it.  I am sure women are capable of picking up on your many good qualities but they are also incredibly good at picking up on underlying feelings.  If such feelings are detected, it can make the woman feel confused.  If she is confused, she might ask questions afterwards, to try to understand, or might not go for a second date.

It's worth considering what your underlying feelings about a woman are - she will pick up on that and probably respond accordingly.

You are right to an extent, I don't pretend to be someone I am not,  though I have found many people seem to find absolute rubbish quite attractive, I once had a friend who told ladies his father had a plane, which was utter nonsense, yet this combined with with more embellishment was very effective for him. Sure I make sure I look good and am presentable. 

Trust me I have no objective chance with people at the top of the apparent attractive scale, unless I can bring something that they actually need in the friend sense.

Sure ask questions but they ask nothing about me so I might as well sit at home and talk to the wall. 

Sorry attraction is there or it is not, women decide instantly so why should I give any time when I am not given any time. For me a lot of it is personality and what she makes me feel. A nice personality cannot for me make up for a lack of physical attraction.

Bottom line women will throw men in the trash for any reason purely because they have the ability to choose. Why put up with something if there is better which is why dating for me is totally flawed, there are hundreds of reasons not to date me.

I am heartened that at least one person is actually giving a guy the benefit of the doubt.

So yeah I am simply not amused when my friend of 20 years, people I don't like are sold to me as being excellent but people I actually like I am never sold to those people.

[elaine567]

43 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

So yeah I am simply not amused when my friend of 20 years, people I don't like are sold to me as being excellent but people I actually like I am never sold to those people.

I guess he knows you would have not a hope in hell with this woman.
If anyone is going to match-make for their friends, it is best really not to set them up to fail.
Successful matches is the name of the game.

He is likely selling you to women he feels you may have a chance with.
Why would he set you up for failure and potential ridicule and humiliation, if he could avoid it?
The fact that you like some women in favour of others, doesn't really increase your chances with the "attractive" ones unfortunately..

[elaine567]

19 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

As an aside she is a therapist, this might amuse some of the forum....

So your current "love" interest is also a therapist... explains a lot.
It is her job to engage with people and get them to open up and delve deeper.
Not sure why you apparently did not suss that out earlier.

See how good that made you feel to unburden...

[ZA Dater]

31 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

I guess he knows you would have not a hope in hell with this woman.
If anyone is going to match-make for their friends, it is best really not to set them up to fail.
Successful matches is the name of the game.

He is likely selling you to women he feels you may have a chance with.
Why would he set you up for failure and potential ridicule and humiliation, if he could avoid it?
The fact that you like some women in favour of others, doesn't really increase your chances with the "attractive" ones unfortunately..

By setting her up with a guy who spends most of his time one some higher cloud apparently and does nothing constructive with his life, running a business where he can work when he wants to..  Sounds like a fantastic match up for sure. Oh and he is a player. It seems these players really do very well with their mix of outright BS and severe manipulation of the truth. 

Or the last person he wanted to set me up with someone who looked and dressed like a man. No thought is ever put into the matches its about hooking up and nothing else, everything revolves around that.

You know what, today I am angry, not an emotion I feel often. 

[ZA Dater]

Just now, elaine567 said:

So your current "love" interest is also a therapist... explains a lot.
It is her job to engage with people and get them to open up and delve deeper.
Not sure why you apparently did not suss that out earlier.

See how good that made you feel to unburden...

Incorrect this current interest is a model.

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

So your current "love" interest is also a therapist... explains a lot.
It is her job to engage with people and get them to open up and delve deeper.
Not sure why you apparently did not suss that out earlier.

See how good that made you feel to unburden...

That particular person actually hardly engaged with me at all I had to singularly keep the conversation going. I felt a great degree of empathy toward her because of her life story which is different to most people but I felt no real connection. She was nice enough but eventually communication just sort of stopped.

Again with each of these sort of lets say experiences I become more hard nosed, more cynical and more jaded and my opinion be they right are wrong become more set but why would they not be, another attempt and another loss. What made me think I had any chance this time I do not know but again I guess the idea is great so long as in my mind I can actually try get the idea to work. 

Someone asked about friend zone and what is wrong with it, nothing I suppose apart from the fact there is no room to grow with it. Never do I get introduced to people via these lady friends, again I suspect well because I am just the useless at dating guy so why bother. Yet I am good enough for certain things. Eventually what this game does is make a person selfish in every sense of the word and inconsiderate, those are the enemies of the guy who can never get a date, I fight them often.

For me the only way to feel better is to do something good, todays example giving more money than I would usually do to a homeless person so they could actually have a decent meal, he looked at me like I was mad but was also appreciative. My point is simple, please someone tell me what is good about chasing and being smacked to the ground every single time. Because people do not give a F about me does not mean I need to adopt the same approach.

[elaine567]

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

By setting her up with a guy who spends most of his time one some higher cloud apparently and does nothing constructive with his life, running a business where he can work when he wants to..  Sounds like a fantastic match up for sure.

Maybe that is exactly who she wants and likes.
Some women are looking for "players" and "charmers" and "creatives".
9-5 types bore them and yes they are maybe all about sex too.
What could you offer such a woman?

She is no doubt young and attractive hence is to your mind "your type", but it doesn't work like that.

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Maybe that is exactly who she wants and likes.
Some women are looking for "players" and "charmers" and "creatives".
9-5 types bore them and yes they are maybe all about sex too.
What could you offer such a woman?

She is no doubt young and attractive hence is to your mind "your type", but it doesn't work like that.

No of course not it never works like that. He with the biggest wallet, biggest level of BS, biggest confidence always wins. People say I must be not be cynical well I really do try but the onslaught to the contrary its very hard to not be cynical. I have been around long enough to identify absolute BS when I see it and its like chumming off the rocks, you attract the fish the bigger the BS the more arrive. Without fail this always seems to work almost all of the time.

What could I offer, well for a start my soul goal would not be to get her into bed, I'd take some sort of interest in her and what actually matters to her, what her likes and dislikes are, what she believed in. But again these players do this so well, spinning BS upon BS being pretended to be interested in everything pretending the person the best thing since sliced bread. I have been out enough and exposed to enough of this to find it nauseating and on Monday between friends its "Ah how far did you get with her, how was she". Sorry I find that entire lifestyle crass. But apparently everyone seems to love it so its case of fit in or ..... off. 

I guess that is just the way things are. Nothing I can do will ever change it so I best just stick to my court side seats and the few crumbs of nice cake get, I suppose a French queen as right,  a few crumbs of cake are better than a loaf of bread.

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

No of course not it never works like that. He with the biggest wallet, biggest level of BS, biggest confidence always wins.

He will always win with women that like men with a lot of money, charm and confidence. But not every woman cares about money, many find different types of personalities charming, and true confidence (I.e. knowing you’ll be fine regardless of what happens including getting rejected) tends to trump false bravado for most.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Weezy1973

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

He will always win with women that like men with a lot of money, charm and confidence. But not every woman cares about money, many find different types of personalities charming, and true confidence (I.e. knowing you’ll be fine regardless of what happens including getting rejected) tends to trump false bravado for most.

As usual your advice is sage and you are not wrong. Sadly the reality for me is every women I come across loves those things, those that don't well I do not work with them either. I think something else you mentioned is also true, its possible to change outlook with different experiences but again that is very difficult. More and more I simply ask myself whether my moral views are wrong, is my inherent differentiation between right and wrong flawed. 

I ask myself why some people are so attractive and others are not, I paper over the issues but they are always there, I'd love to believe like you do that better experiences are possible but the evidence in front of me and behind me really does not show that at all. I spend time building people up making they believe they can accomplish things but its odd that nobody does this for me, not even people who are apparently my friends of 20 odd years. It hurts being the outsider all the time, its not very nice being the joker, the guy people pity and its not nice being viewed as lesser. Because I face this with dating I choose to make sure whenever I can that I make sure I never make people feel like this, you see like I did today the face of a homeless guy when I stopped to chat to him, not talk down to him like so many do but to actually talk to him. 

That is what gets me about dating, its never about the other person, I go on dates trying to learn about the other person but they never try learn about me, I ask myself is dating just about sex, is that all there is to it really, its all my friends ever talk about, its never about the person, their personality or anything about them. 

All dating is, is extremely hard work with actually nothing that makes me happy at all, it makes me totally miserable because the more I try the more I invest and the less of anything positive I get. If I could say ok, that is positive but the best I gets is like this, glimpses of things I do like but the fact is those are just crumbs and nothing sustainable. Inherently I never give up but that is challenged with dating, you tell me how I measure and find anything positive?

Sure, I am fine if I am rejected but when that is all I know it becomes extremely tiring and the "why bother" mentality sets in.  

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I spend time building people up making they believe they can accomplish things but its odd that nobody does this for me, not even people who are apparently my friends of 20 odd years. .  

When you help people believe they can accomplish things, it involves changing their mindset, yes?   Thing is, you're adamant that you're not interested in changing yourself, so why would your friends try to get you do/be something which you don't want?    And to be fair to your friends, most people who want to make big improvements on their life seek professional help.  They don't rely on untrained friends and their hack advice.

[ZA Dater]

8 minutes ago, basil67 said:

When you help people believe they can accomplish things, it involves changing their mindset, yes?   Thing is, you're adamant that you're not interested in changing yourself, so why would your friends try to get you do/be something which you don't want?    And to be fair to your friends, most people who want to make big improvements on their life seek professional help.  They don't rely on untrained friends and their hack advice.

No it involves actually believing in them. Quite clearly there no belief in me I am suitable for this and not suitable for that. 

My friend seems to think he knows what is best for me even if I really don't find the person attractive, they will be " oh she is amazing" well if she is so amazing why isn't he darting her. I have made it quite clear I do like this lady and yet here is trying to set up a guy he has known for 3 weeks. I have been his friend for over 15 year's.

You tell me I don't have justification for being a bit irritated.

 

[basil67]

Back to the cycling analogy, you may believe that I could be successful in my riding.  Your belief in me may prompt me to see a trainer and change my habits.  But I still have to be open to change to be a successful rider.    If your friends believed in you and suggested a some changes to your personal interaction and your presentation, would you be open to it?  

Why isn't your mate dating the "amazing" woman?  Because despite being amazing, she's not amazing in the way he wants.    I can look at someone who's not my type, think to myself "my friend would think he's great".   Do you really believe that we all want the same things in a partner?

Regarding the lady in question, there doesn't seem to have been enough mutual interest to get things off the ground between the two of you, so he's moved on to introducing her to someone else.  This is entirely fair on his part.  He'd be a fool to keep matching her with you even though it's gone nowhere.

[elaine567]

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

What could I offer, well for a start my soul goal would not be to get her into bed, I'd take some sort of interest in her and what actually matters to her, what her likes and dislikes are, what she believed in.

Ok but what if sex is what she wants, what if being entertained with jokes and tricks is what she wants, what if having oodles of cash spent on her is what she wants, what if she just wants to party and has no time for "serious talk"?
You assume this friend is somehow keeping her from you due to some sort of spite but what if he knows she is just some superficial, good time party girl who would be bored after about two secs in your company?
The "no good" guy who runs a business where he works when he wants to, may be exactly what she is looking for... 

[dramafreezone]

10 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

It's also impossible when your own friends are trying to actually not help either. Case in point, friend is already trying to set this lady up with one of his other friends.

Clearly he deems me unsuitable.

First, it's not your friend's job to help you find relationships or dates.

Second, why do you care what he thinks?

[Trail Blazer]

11 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

You right I just never match with people I find attractive. Actually my social skills are ok, I wouldn't be able to deal with people daily if they were not. The fact I can't be bothered to care who is sleeping with who, who drinks what, who is gossiping about who, honestly none of that interests me. I simply stopped doing social things with one friend because this was all that everything revolved around.

Activities where I may be exposed well again it's the same old hiking group's full or single mothers ten years older than me, or its going drinking as many social aspects seem to revolve around.

 

Dude, perhaps you don't lack an ability to effectively communicate in a professional setting, but I'd certainly argue that as socializing goes, your skills are decidedly lacking.

I'm surprised that as people in their thirties, all that seems to be discussed and all the social activities which seem to be conducted are those one would expect to be exposed to at college; drinking, partying and hook-ups.

Is there no happy medium where you have friends who can socialize in an age-appropriate setting?  For example, visiting contemporary but classy adult bars where drinking happens just in moderation?

We're of similar age and I can tell you that prior to Covid, my heavy partying days and long nights of clubbing were well behind me, save for very rare occasions. 

I do, however, enjoy socializing with mature-minded people, in a relaxed setting where the mood lighting is carefully set to maximize the ambience of the venue.  You know, a place where you can enjoy some fine food and alcohol and not have to shout in order to have a conversation.

It sounds like you need some new friends.

[Weezy1973]

23 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

It sounds like you need some new friends.

Amen. Unfortunately OP you’ve made friends with people that are very different from you and as such have developed an attraction for women that are very different from you. 

[spiderowl]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

As usual your advice is sage and you are not wrong. Sadly the reality for me is every women I come across loves those things, those that don't well I do not work with them either. I think something else you mentioned is also true, its possible to change outlook with different experiences but again that is very difficult. More and more I simply ask myself whether my moral views are wrong, is my inherent differentiation between right and wrong flawed. 

I ask myself why some people are so attractive and others are not, I paper over the issues but they are always there, I'd love to believe like you do that better experiences are possible but the evidence in front of me and behind me really does not show that at all. I spend time building people up making they believe they can accomplish things but its odd that nobody does this for me, not even people who are apparently my friends of 20 odd years. It hurts being the outsider all the time, its not very nice being the joker, the guy people pity and its not nice being viewed as lesser. Because I face this with dating I choose to make sure whenever I can that I make sure I never make people feel like this, you see like I did today the face of a homeless guy when I stopped to chat to him, not talk down to him like so many do but to actually talk to him. 

That is what gets me about dating, its never about the other person, I go on dates trying to learn about the other person but they never try learn about me, I ask myself is dating just about sex, is that all there is to it really, its all my friends ever talk about, its never about the person, their personality or anything about them. 

All dating is, is extremely hard work with actually nothing that makes me happy at all, it makes me totally miserable because the more I try the more I invest and the less of anything positive I get. If I could say ok, that is positive but the best I gets is like this, glimpses of things I do like but the fact is those are just crumbs and nothing sustainable. Inherently I never give up but that is challenged with dating, you tell me how I measure and find anything positive?

Sure, I am fine if I am rejected but when that is all I know it becomes extremely tiring and the "why bother" mentality sets in.  

I am sorry you have ended up with dates where they do not seem interested to ask about you.  These women were either never interested in the first place, are self-centred and therefore not nice personalities, or there is something you are doing that is putting them off.  How come you are dating women who do not seem very nice?  Do you chat with them online/on the phone first, to get an idea of what kind of person they are?  What exactly is attracting you to them in the first place?

I would not suggest for a minute that you date women you are not attracted to.  Attraction is not just about beauty though - I am sure you realise that?  I find people tend to fit into different camps: blatantly physically attractive (which says nothing about their personality); seem nice people but I feel neutral about them physically; attractive to others but not to me; physically unattractive in some way that is never going to appeal to me; physically and emotionally unattractive.

The people I feel neutral about, but who just do not 'grab' me as being physically attractive from the start, are the ones who I would date if they had an appealing personality.  I know that attraction can grow if you spend time with someone fun and decent.  It's a primitive thing: we gradually bond with people we like.  That bonding/emotional bonding, can become more.  It is hard to feel anything but instant physical attraction or not when you don't know a person.  Looks are all we have to make a decision on.  This is where looks deceive us.  

If you are part of a group, a social group maybe, where you know all the members.  You drink with them, play games, chat, joke.  You may not think you are bonding with them but if someone from out of that group threatens anyone, then the group will immediately feel an instinctive 'he or she' is 'one of ours' and how dare any outsider threaten them.  This is assuming that the threat is unjust.  It is the same with romantic partners: at first you might get on with them well, like spending time with them but feel neutral physically, then after spending more time with them, an emotional bond forms.  If someone else then comes along and decides they like your friend who you feel neutral about, that might trigger less neutral feelings in you.  I suspect because you are not engaging with women you like but feel neutral about because they do not fit your attractiveness category, you are never getting to that bonding stage that can change perceptions massively.  

Maybe it's because I'm older, I don't know, but I place less reliance on looks as an indicator about someone's personality.  Yes, there are people I would not be attracted to physically but might like as a person, but I know that good-looking people can be shallow like anyone else.  I also look for other qualities, like kindness, generosity, mental flexibility, and gentlemanly behaviours.  These qualities influence how I feel about a person and how I see them.

As an example, I was dating a guy who most would consider good-looking.  He wrote well in his messages and was polite and decent.  All good.  Since then though, I have found he's not mentally flexible, he has a belief system and it's the only one that works and I don't share it.  There are subjects he does not like to talk about and avoids because he disagrees with me over them, so there is no scope for discussion.  He prefers to eat at home and not eat out (I like to eat out for a treat occasionally). He does not have a tv (I like tv) and feels the internet is trying to take over our lives.  I like the internet (even if there are commercial forces on there who would like to be able to control our behaviour).  So, we are pretty incompatible.  I still find him attractive but there is no future in a relationship.  Attractiveness is only part of it.  Sadly, we have had to drift apart - you can't have a relationship with someone who you cannot communicate with.

You found someone you can communicate with.  This is good, it shows that such a relationship is possible.  It might need to be a different woman but at least you know what that 'relating' feels like and can look out for it in future.

I think you have every chance of meeting the right woman if you can be a bit more open-minded and not write people off immediately.  See how you get on with the communication, relating, and then see how things feel.  I would be surprised if you do not find someone attractive who you really can communicate with and who you do not immediately find ugly.  You don't have to lose your values; they are good values and you will find others who share them.  

[Trail Blazer]

12 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

No of course not it never works like that. He with the biggest wallet, biggest level of BS, biggest confidence always wins.

Are you only attracted to women who think like this?  Because I can assure you that there's plenty of quality women out there who aren't interested in how much money a guy has or how much BS he peddles.  Quality women see through such nonsense.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Trail Blazer said:

Are you only attracted to women who think like this?  Because I can assure you that there's plenty of quality women out there who aren't interested in how much money a guy has or how much BS he peddles.  Quality women see through such nonsense.

Well unfortunately then I have never met them, or very few of them. All I meet for the most part are single mothers with lots of baggage who really haven't looked after themselves. People with no dating options, like me. People who are desperate for the apparent status I can add to their lives but who are totally incompatible with me. And of course like OC the ones who have the looks and use those looks as a commodity.

Sure like this lady I rarely meet people who have all the qualities I like. 

I have no doubt you are correct though but again there is endless choice for ladies with a modicum of physical attraction. 

[ZA Dater]

7 hours ago, basil67 said:

Back to the cycling analogy, you may believe that I could be successful in my riding.  Your belief in me may prompt me to see a trainer and change my habits.  But I still have to be open to change to be a successful rider.    If your friends believed in you and suggested a some changes to your personal interaction and your presentation, would you be open to it?  

Why isn't your mate dating the "amazing" woman?  Because despite being amazing, she's not amazing in the way he wants.    I can look at someone who's not my type, think to myself "my friend would think he's great".   Do you really believe that we all want the same things in a partner?

Regarding the lady in question, there doesn't seem to have been enough mutual interest to get things off the ground between the two of you, so he's moved on to introducing her to someone else.  This is entirely fair on his part.  He'd be a fool to keep matching her with you even though it's gone nowhere.

I'll tell you why he isn't because they are not physically attractive at all. But they are apparently good enough for me and I should .... them. 

He hasn't even tried matching her with me which again is telling.

Sure I'd be open to viable changes where there is some benefit. I have made changes suggested before with absolutely no benefit or improvement. 

The problem I suspect is his goal is to get them into bed instantly whereas mine has always been to try connect with them, that's the fundamental difference I can see between what I do and these players do and based on what I see very clearly I am totally wrong in my approach.

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

Dude, perhaps you don't lack an ability to effectively communicate in a professional setting, but I'd certainly argue that as socializing goes, your skills are decidedly lacking.

I'm surprised that as people in their thirties, all that seems to be discussed and all the social activities which seem to be conducted are those one would expect to be exposed to at college; drinking, partying and hook-ups.

Is there no happy medium where you have friends who can socialize in an age-appropriate setting?  For example, visiting contemporary but classy adult bars where drinking happens just in moderation?

We're of similar age and I can tell you that prior to Covid, my heavy partying days and long nights of clubbing were well behind me, save for very rare occasions. 

I do, however, enjoy socializing with mature-minded people, in a relaxed setting where the mood lighting is carefully set to maximize the ambience of the venue.  You know, a place where you can enjoy some fine food and alcohol and not have to shout in order to have a conversation.

It sounds like you need some new friends.

Unfortunately statistics support the fact drinking rarely happens in moderation in SA. Irrespective where I go I see the same thing unless it's purely a restaurant then sure you can get when you mention above but there is no mixing of people. It's just really difficult to meet anyone that way.

Maybe I should say that some of these people are in their 40s and 50s and behave like this. And what do we have 20s and 30s ladies who love the prestige, the charm and whatever these guy's apparently have. 

Again I am probably wrong and I don't mind admitting it but the reality is I can sit and talk about mostly anything but that's more a curse than a talent. Maybe I am just wrong with my entire point of view.

What irritates me and always will and I cannot change is is no matter how I sell what I have it's never good enough when I compete with Mr player. Its one way traffic for me I try and try but ultimately I lack any level of attraction so I have lost from the start.

[basil67]

18 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Maybe I should say that some of these people are in their 40s and 50s and behave like this. And what do we have 20s and 30s ladies who love the prestige, the charm and whatever these guy's apparently havehe start.

They see a guy who's having fun and find it attractive.