Can this work

[basil67]

36 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The problem I suspect is his goal is to get them into bed instantly whereas mine has always been to try connect with them, that's the fundamental difference I can see between what I do and these players do and based on what I see very clearly I am totally wrong in my approach.

Yeah, it sounds like you're on a fast track to the friendzone.    Back when I was dating, I was always attracted to the guy who would make the effort to connect and who knew how to make me feel desired.   Why not add some flirt to your efforts in connecting?

[Moves Like Jagger]

ZA Dater, you got to provide more details about the conversations that you are having with women. I think I'm pretty sure I know what's going on. Some guys treat conversations like a serious, job interview. Other guys are expressive and self-amused. They enjoy the process of connecting with other people. I've seen a couple of people mention being a good listener. Well, a lot of unexperienced guys interpret it as being Mr. Interview Guy. 

I also noticed a lot of references to blondes and models. When I looked up your celebrity crush,I saw a tall, blonde, actress. I can't help but interpret that you want to date women that are conventionally attractive. They are at the top of the totem pole. Young, pretty, middle-class women that are at lease above-average in looks have a ton of options. 

[elaine567]

2 hours ago, Moves Like Jagger said:

you want to date women that are conventionally attractive.

This is the main problem, it has been the problem all along and will I guess continue to be the problem.
ZA Dater whilst no doubt a nice, average guy does not have the looks, the personality, nor the social skills to attract such women and likely never will.
They are looking for "better" than him and as they are the "top of the tree" in the dating world, then why wouldn't they?
They want "top of the tree" men, either in personality, looks or social skills, or failing that a guy with loads of money.
Conventionally attractive women know what they want and usually know how to get it. (Unless they are "crazy" or have some other fatal flaws.)

ZA needs a nice average girl who likes to discuss serious topics and who is caring,  kind and generous, but spurred on by his playboy and such like friends, and his "elite car" social circle, that is not good enough for him.
He realises he is not "all that" himself, so he needs a desirable, conventionally attractive girl with a great personality to elevate his status and to turn a socially awkward, shy guy into something special.
"OMG look at ZA's gf... wow!"
He doesn't want to be seen with his  average looking, shy, awkward gf... 

[ZA Dater]

7 hours ago, Moves Like Jagger said:

ZA Dater, you got to provide more details about the conversations that you are having with women. I think I'm pretty sure I know what's going on. Some guys treat conversations like a serious, job interview. Other guys are expressive and self-amused. They enjoy the process of connecting with other people. I've seen a couple of people mention being a good listener. Well, a lot of unexperienced guys interpret it as being Mr. Interview Guy. 

I also noticed a lot of references to blondes and models. When I looked up your celebrity crush,I saw a tall, blonde, actress. I can't help but interpret that you want to date women that are conventionally attractive. They are at the top of the totem pole. Young, pretty, middle-class women that are at lease above-average in looks have a ton of options. 

You see lets back track here a bit. I have been on dates and even when I HAVE liked the person I still get thrown on the scrap heap so I fail to see why its my duty to go "oh well lets go on ten dates, maybe she is more attractive after 5" when that has never been extended to me. Unfortunately I am not the sort of guy people seem to like instantly, I have neither the confidence, humor or charisma to actually be that but I am also not the guy who will sleep with you today and your friend in two weeks. I am also not the guy who will stand you up and rather go out drinking with my friends.

I resort to interview type dates when getting the person to talk is impossible or when they take no interest in me at all and ask no questions or I find a topic they like taking about ad simply just talk about that, again no enquiry from them about me. I am actually quite interested in people and their viewpoints but I am not interested in exclusively talking about their friends and their boyfriends. I sort of hope people will have views about what is going on around them, instead I typically find they have little or no interest just so long as Kim and Peter are doing this and that and this friend is going in this trip.

In this instance this lady has a baby, he is the center of her life, she loves talking about him and I can really engage on that because I do actually like kids, probably because they actually mostly find me funny and I just know they do not judge. She has been places, seen things, has views on things, similar background to me, these things do count as attractive.

Why should I not want to dating conventionally attractive ladies?

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, elaine567 said:

This is the main problem, it has been the problem all along and will I guess continue to be the problem.
ZA Dater whilst no doubt a nice, average guy does not have the looks, the personality, nor the social skills to attract such women and likely never will.
They are looking for "better" than him and as they are the "top of the tree" in the dating world, then why wouldn't they?
They want "top of the tree" men, either in personality, looks or social skills, or failing that a guy with loads of money.
Conventionally attractive women know what they want and usually know how to get it. (Unless they are "crazy" or have some other fatal flaws.)

ZA needs a nice average girl who likes to discuss serious topics and who is caring,  kind and generous, but spurred on by his playboy and such like friends, and his "elite car" social circle, that is not good enough for him.
He realises he is not "all that" himself, so he needs a desirable, conventionally attractive girl with a great personality to elevate his status and to turn a socially awkward, shy guy into something special.
"OMG look at ZA's gf... wow!"
He doesn't want to be seen with his  average looking, shy, awkward gf... 

Your vote of confidence is amazing. Thanks.

I find it hard to believe anyone goes out to date someone that do not find attractive, to me that is completely pointless. Why should I not want to go out with people I find attractive or are you conceding that a "take it or leave it approach" is good enough for me?

Here is the thing

I actually do try and put my best foot forward, I do try to look good, I do try to engage but ALWAYS there is someone better. I suppose if I cant play on the field I can always watch the game.

 

[ZA Dater]

8 hours ago, basil67 said:

Yeah, it sounds like you're on a fast track to the friendzone.    Back when I was dating, I was always attracted to the guy who would make the effort to connect and who knew how to make me feel desired.   Why not add some flirt to your efforts in connecting?

Oh well rejected if you do rejected if you do not, it all becomes the same after a while.

I do not know how flirt, never have and no amount of reading and watching videos make it a natural thing for me to do, for me flirting is defined as being charming. I guess I simply have to just concede I connect with nobody and nobody connects with me. Hardly fantastic but its apparently the reality. 

Its hard to deal with but there are people dealing with far worse. 

 

[elaine567]

37 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I find it hard to believe anyone goes out to date someone that do not find attractive

The difference being that most tune their selection criteria to suit the women that are available to them.
Experienced guys get to know who they have a chance with and who they don't and act accordingly.
They know she will go home with the hottest guy in the room, so they ignore the very obvious hot and popular girl who is attracting all the male attention, and scan the room for other options.
Options that may turn out to be just as good or even better. 
Better to go home with someone to hold tight than to go home alone every night.
You are stuck at the hankering after the hot blonde stage... and it is all just so unfair...

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

You are stuck at the hankering after the hot blonde stage... and it is all just so unfair...

He is stuck at this stage. I commented on this in a previous thread. I was in this stage in high school. Always had crushes on the most popular girls, which never turned into romantic dates. Lots of friendzones. And then in my early 20s I dated someone that I didn’t find super attractive physically, but that I liked as a person, and it turned into a really good relationship. 

[ZA Dater]

38 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

He is stuck at this stage. I commented on this in a previous thread. I was in this stage in high school. Always had crushes on the most popular girls, which never turned into romantic dates. Lots of friendzones. And then in my early 20s I dated someone that I didn’t find super attractive physically, but that I liked as a person, and it turned into a really good relationship. 

I dont see much point having a relationship.with someone I don't find attractive overall. The last word is important there. 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

The difference being that most tune their selection criteria to suit the women that are available to them.
Experienced guys get to know who they have a chance with and who they don't and act accordingly.
They know she will go home with the hottest guy in the room, so they ignore the very obvious hot and popular girl who is attracting all the male attention, and scan the room for other options.
Options that may turn out to be just as good or even better. 
Better to go home with someone to hold tight than to go home alone every night.
You are stuck at the hankering after the hot blonde stage... and it is all just so unfair...

Well I certainly don't hanker for the unfit person so. Nor do I hanker after a mother with teenage kid's. Or the person with zero ambition or the one who is apathetic so yes.

Just how do they know who is available if they don't try? Are you saying everyone is the same...

I reckon even if I did by some miracle get this right the chances are I'd simply find the entire experience underwhelming, which if I tell myself that often enough I get a few extra minutes of sleep. 

[jspice]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Unfortunately I am not the sort of guy people seem to like instantly, I have neither the confidence, humor or charisma to actually be that but I am also not the guy who will sleep with you today and your friend in two weeks. I am also not the guy who will stand you up and rather go out drinking with my friends.

So why would anyone want to date you?? 
this is your own admission! Would you date a woman with no confidence, no humour, no charisma? 
You want a model ( a freaking model!) but your only selling point is “I won’t sleep with your friends”. 
 

Guy seriously. Your options:

1. Make a concerted effort and develop some kind of social skills 

2. Stop punching above your weight and date at your level. 
 

3. Buy a hooker. 

 

 

[Weezy1973]

44 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I dont see much point having a relationship.with someone I don't find attractive overall. The last word is important there. 

What’s actually important is your insistence on “wow”. You actually don’t need “wow” to have a great relationship. Or should I say immediate “wow”. Attraction can go from “meh” to “wow” as you get to know someone overtime. Although if the starting point is “yuck” then certainly no point in progressing.

[ZA Dater]

18 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

What’s actually important is your insistence on “wow”. You actually don’t need “wow” to have a great relationship. Or should I say immediate “wow”. Attraction can go from “meh” to “wow” as you get to know someone overtime. Although if the starting point is “yuck” then certainly no point in progressing.

Tell me why I need to give this benefit when it's never extended to me? I have been on plenty of dates where I really have put in effort and never got a second date. What I need to explain here is for me if it's impossible to have a flowing conversation I don't see the point of seeing the person again, irrespective of how they look. 

 

[ZA Dater]

25 minutes ago, jspice said:

So why would anyone want to date you?? 
this is your own admission! Would you date a woman with no confidence, no humour, no charisma? 
You want a model ( a freaking model!) but your only selling point is “I won’t sleep with your friends”. 
 

Guy seriously. Your options:

1. Make a concerted effort and develop some kind of social skills 

2. Stop punching above your weight and date at your level. 
 

3. Buy a hooker. 

 

 

Because of my values, loyalty, manners, I actually do care about people and our them before myself, I am generous, well meaning, pretty motivated at what I want to accomplish. I can be confident and I can do dry humour.

It would have been easy to do option 3, and probably a lot of guys in my position would but I don't because that isn't the sort of experience I want nor is it morally acceptable to me. I am not going to.date someone with the sole goal of sleeping with her, I actually want to take an interest in someone and have that interest reciprocated. I'd go as far as to say I don't really need the intimate part of dating over everything else, it would be a nice to have but what I do need is reciprocated interest.

I am nearly a 37yo virgin so I highly doubt thats exciting for anyone in the dating pool anyway. The absolute truth is guys don't understand why I don't chase sex, sure I'd like to but only if there is reciprocal interest which never happens for me. 

When it comes to dates I have been on dates with a variety of different people, which was actually a good thing.

[jspice]

8 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Because of my values, loyalty, manners, I actually do care about people and our them before myself, I am generous, well meaning, pretty motivated at what I want to accomplish. I can be confident and I can do dry humour.

It would have been easy to do option 3, and probably a lot of guys in my position would but I don't because that isn't the sort of experience I want nor is it morally acceptable to me. I am not going to.date someone with the sole goal of sleeping with her, I actually want to take an interest in someone and have that interest reciprocated. I'd go as far as to say I don't really need the intimate part of dating over everything else, it would be a nice to have but what I do need is reciprocated interest.

I am nearly a 37yo virgin so I highly doubt thats exciting for anyone in the dating pool anyway. The absolute truth is guys don't understand why I don't chase sex, sure I'd like to but only if there is reciprocal interest which never happens for me. 

When it comes to dates I have been on dates with a variety of different people, which was actually a good thing.

And nobody wants your “good manners” if you can’t make her laugh. 
Dogs are loyal, she probably doesn’t want to date her dog. 
 

Those are your three options. Choose one or don’t date. Simple. 

[ZA Dater]

7 minutes ago, jspice said:

And nobody wants your “good manners” if you can’t make her laugh. 
Dogs are loyal, she probably doesn’t want to date her dog. 
 

Those are your three options. Choose one or don’t date. Simple. 

Thank you. Not sure how 3 is dating nevertheless thanks. I assume you would consider the same options you suggest?

[jspice]

11 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Thank you. Not sure how 3 is dating nevertheless thanks. I assume you would consider the same options you suggest?

No I wouldn’t but I have charm, humour and charisma. 
I once took the time to type a two page reply to you telling you how I overcame my crippling introversion and despite the fact that I had these qualities I couldn’t show them to anyone. 
 

It took me an hour to type that post to you, detailing my issues and how I overcame them. You systematically shot down every single thing I said without even trying to think laterally or critically about how that could apply to you. 
 

So yes, because you refuse to make a serious effort, those are your options. 
 

 

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Tell me why I need to give this benefit when it's never extended to me?

 

Because you seem to want to be in a relationship? Honestly what does it matter if the attraction is instant or grows over time? Either way you’re attracted right? And what other people do doesn’t matter either. 
 

What we can say with absolute certainty is that your thoughts and beliefs about love and dating are wrong. Like your constant failure proves that right? I don’t know why you fight so hard to hold onto those beliefs. What do you think is going to change if you keep doing the exact same things over and over?

[ZA Dater]

16 minutes ago, jspice said:

No I wouldn’t but I have charm, humour and charisma. 
I once took the time to type a two page reply to you telling you how I overcame my crippling introversion and despite the fact that I had these qualities I couldn’t show them to anyone. 
 

It took me an hour to type that post to you, detailing my issues and how I overcame them. You systematically shot down every single thing I said without even trying to think laterally or critically about how that could apply to you. 
 

So yes, because you refuse to make a serious effort, those are your options. 
 

 

I recall that response well and I am sincerely glad you managed to overcome those obstacles and I did thank you at the time. My life experience suggests we all walk different roads and different things work for different people in different situations much like what I like you may not like and vice versa. My point is I have made the effort many times with very little to nothing to show for it. I have been on dates, tried to be light hearted and heck some even laughed even if they laughed at me, that was fine, I have had conversations with many irrespective whether I found them attractive or not.

Point being I am not exactly guilty of not trying. But you know what, its alright to try but its better to try and see some results because if all you get for trying is nothing at all then I really question the entire point of trying at all. SO sure your points are valid I suppose.

Heck this particular person I sat with for 4 hours chatting and amazingly seemed to be able to keep contact with for months afterwards, unusual especially in the instance where I actually do like the person but again I suppose it always a net loss position because while I benefit from having the conversation the results never really differ. 

I can give speeches, no issue but I sitting listening to who has hooked up with who does not really interest me nor does sitting around braai's while people drink themselves into oblivion or going to trance parties where many well, perhaps some see oblivion for at least a time. Sure I can go on hikes with single mothers and people 30 years older than me but whats that really going to accomplish. 

Today I went to an amazing resort to research an event I am planning, absolutely stunning and I considered going there for a weekend away until I realised going alone would require me to put on my extra thick skin and I just know I'd enjoy the experience more if I could share it with someone who I actually like spending time with. 

People here are quick to jump on the social skills band wagon but you tell me how bad they really are if I can interact as effectively as I do with very successful people as well as people who in some instances have nothing but the clothes on their back. I question everything, nothing to me is accepted, when I go on dates I make this philosophy very clear, I am not going to just go somewhere because everyone else is, do something because everyone else is. 

I don't at dates in terms of taking them to bed, I look at them as people, what they like, I want to know what their life experiences have been liked, good and bad, where they want to go in life but I suppose they'd rather chat about Tom dating Jessica and the girl in the next office at work and sure to a degree that is alright but there becomes a point where I simply reach the point of complete disinterest. If being disinterested in that stuff means I have poor social skills then I frankly wear that with pride. 

I get your malice toward me, really I do.

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Because you seem to want to be in a relationship? Honestly what does it matter if the attraction is instant or grows over time? Either way you’re attracted right? And what other people do doesn’t matter either. 
 

What we can say with absolute certainty is that your thoughts and beliefs about love and dating are wrong. Like your constant failure proves that right? I don’t know why you fight so hard to hold onto those beliefs. What do you think is going to change if you keep doing the exact same things over and over?

Quite simple. So long as my beliefs are not disproved I will keep hanging onto them because there is no conclusive evidence that in my situation, with the people I know, the people I interact with, that my views are wrong. Yes, they might be wrong but absolutely NO experience I have had has proven them to be wrong. I stopped going to house parties (pre covid) because I simply got tired of the same nonsense I saw.  I did manage to leave with the girl once but I had to dance all night and look like an idiot doing so and you know what my well "ok cool lets see maybe I can take her on a proper date" turned into the same result.

Look I am not saying I am correct, I might be completely wrong and truthfully hope I am but nothing absolutely nothing see gives any indication that things work any differently to the way I have seen them work.

I think I get griped simply because its a case of everything I do not want and nothing I do, again my choice, some might be happy with that I do not want. Its very, very difficult to keep going through the cycle over and over again. You are a smart guy I am sure to some extent you can relate to that. 

Its about perspective, you can turn positive into positive into positive but negative equally snowballs and I spend enough time around successful people to realise that while many have failed at some point they also never failed relentlessly either, they had one positive moment which allowed them to carry momentum and gain confidence. That is all I am looking for, that one positive really good experience. 

[Weezy1973]

13 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Yes, they might be wrong but absolutely NO experience I have had has proven them to be wrong.

But you’re only 1 in almost 8 billion people on the planet. Most of which have relationships as adults. Many of those relationships are successful. And this has been going on for millennia. What makes you think your experience is some  window into the truth, and the rest of us (many of who are in successful relationships) have it wrong? 
 

Isn’t the much more likely scenario that you’re wrong? And you’re completely susceptible to confirmation bias so just focus on on the things that confirm your wrong beliefs?

 

And we can all agree that what you’re doing is definitely not working right? Never has. And so the almost definite outcome if you keep doing the same thing is that it won’t work right?

 

There’s nothing wrong with you that you can’t date successfully and find a partner, but you’re so stuck in your ways that it seems like self sabotage. That is subconsciously you’re trying to fail, so you can stay in your “safe” life without connecting with anyone. But as you know it’s any empty, lonely existence.

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

But you’re only 1 in almost 8 billion people on the planet. Most of which have relationships as adults. Many of those relationships are successful. And this has been going on for millennia. What makes you think your experience is some  window into the truth, and the rest of us (many of who are in successful relationships) have it wrong? 
 

Isn’t the much more likely scenario that you’re wrong? And you’re completely susceptible to confirmation bias so just focus on on the things that confirm your wrong beliefs?

 

And we can all agree that what you’re doing is definitely not working right? Never has. And so the almost definite outcome if you keep doing the same thing is that it won’t work right?

 

There’s nothing wrong with you that you can’t date successfully and find a partner, but you’re so stuck in your ways that it seems like self sabotage. That is subconsciously you’re trying to fail, so you can stay in your “safe” life without connecting with anyone. But as you know it’s any empty, lonely existence.

You have missed the point I am trying to make. I might well be wrong but my experiences are not your experiences and yours are not mine. Sure, I could date if I simply went out with people I do not find attractive on any level, I'd like to think most people who date, do not date on this basis. Am I wrong about that? I think not.

Sure I'll agree it does not work but I will also say it does not work for many people either I am not unique at all. I have been around long enough to even have successful daters tell me "well I get rejected to" to which my response always is "sure but you do not get rejected ALL of the time do you".  There is never an answer to that. 

I  have gone out with an open mind to clubs, bars and social spaces and just see the same thing everywhere I go so sure I might be wrong but it is what I am seeing and experiencing. Simply put I am not going to date for the sake of dating, which would just be me pretending to like someone I do not, in which I case I might as well pay for dates because the level of fake would be much the same really. 

It just seems to me its one way traffic I put in ALL of the effort and get a kick in the face for it, you do this often enough and well you get the point of why bother. Going out with people I do not find attractive is not the answer, I'd be even more miserable because I'd be completely wasting my time and potentially putting myself into a very awkward position.

Case in point, I once went on a date, all she wanted me to do was go back to her room and...... well suffice to say I was so awkward on the date itself that never happened "I wanted to go back and we could.... but I dont think this is going to work" morally I would not have done it but the point remains, sure I was not on my A game that day but my point of view was ok well lets get to know her. I kind of know when things go badly and more often than not they do because as is normal they have the right to want someone experienced in dating and I can tell you for a time I got so irritated I actually just flat out told them I have never dated and that was pretty much a deal killer but I learnt then how important experience is.

Its not like I have not gone out to learn but eventually its just become easier to close myself off and open up on the very rare occasion when I really like the person I am engaging with.

[Foxhall]

You will have to do one of these reality tv shows- First Dates or something,

so as we can get a look at you in action.

[Trail Blazer]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

You have missed the point I am trying to make. I might well be wrong but my experiences are not your experiences and yours are not mine. Sure, I could date if I simply went out with people I do not find attractive on any level, I'd like to think most people who date, do not date on this basis. Am I wrong about that? I think not.

Sure I'll agree it does not work but I will also say it does not work for many people either I am not unique at all. I have been around long enough to even have successful daters tell me "well I get rejected to" to which my response always is "sure but you do not get rejected ALL of the time do you".  There is never an answer to that. 

I  have gone out with an open mind to clubs, bars and social spaces and just see the same thing everywhere I go so sure I might be wrong but it is what I am seeing and experiencing. Simply put I am not going to date for the sake of dating, which would just be me pretending to like someone I do not, in which I case I might as well pay for dates because the level of fake would be much the same really. 

It just seems to me its one way traffic I put in ALL of the effort and get a kick in the face for it, you do this often enough and well you get the point of why bother. Going out with people I do not find attractive is not the answer, I'd be even more miserable because I'd be completely wasting my time and potentially putting myself into a very awkward position.

Case in point, I once went on a date, all she wanted me to do was go back to her room and...... well suffice to say I was so awkward on the date itself that never happened "I wanted to go back and we could.... but I dont think this is going to work" morally I would not have done it but the point remains, sure I was not on my A game that day but my point of view was ok well lets get to know her. I kind of know when things go badly and more often than not they do because as is normal they have the right to want someone experienced in dating and I can tell you for a time I got so irritated I actually just flat out told them I have never dated and that was pretty much a deal killer but I learnt then how important experience is.

Its not like I have not gone out to learn but eventually its just become easier to close myself off and open up on the very rare occasion when I really like the person I am engaging with.

Why would you reject and one-night stand?  They're great for boosting your confidence as a male, especially if you're a little sex-starved of late.  Or, in your case, just getting the monkey off your back!

Everyone's experiences are different.  However, I think you just need a good bonk, my friend.  Who cares if she's not that attractive?  If it's just sex, we've all been there before, having slept with a less-than-desirable.

[Trail Blazer]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Tell me why I need to give this benefit when it's never extended to me? I have been on plenty of dates where I really have put in effort and never got a second date.

Because it doesn't work like that.  Look, I'm not one to advocate for someone becoming a lot more attractive as you get to know them more, if you're not attracted to them already.

What I will say is that in the initial courting stage, it's up to you to make a good impression.  To sell yourself without actually selling yourself.

At the end of the day, why would an atrractive woman with options choose you over all her other suitors?  That's the question you need to answer in order to work out how to court and retain those of whom pique you interest.